Poser 13 does not include support for unimesh figures. The announcement was made that

What are your thoughts and opinions?

There's some discussion in this thread:

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2977561/march-23rd-right-around-the-corner

I'm a little disappointed, since they promised us unimesh and a new figure. End users probably won't really notice, though. Hopefully this means no unimesh yet, not that they've given up on it. As I understand it, unimesh support/figures will make Poser more compatible with other software, making it easier to import and export stuff.

Note, unimesh as DAZ used the term a couple of decades ago is not what they're talking about here. No unimesh support doesn't mean you can't use V4. It's a completely different definition of unimesh.

randym77 posted at 1:02 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456852

There's some discussion in this thread:

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2977561/march-23rd-right-around-the-corner

I'm a little disappointed, since they promised us unimesh and a new figure. End users probably won't really notice, though. Hopefully this means no unimesh yet, not that they've given up on it. As I understand it, unimesh support/figures will make Poser more compatible with other software, making it easier to import and export stuff.

Note, unimesh as DAZ used the term a couple of decades ago is not what they're talking about here. No unimesh support doesn't mean you can't use V4. It's a completely different definition of unimesh.

Speaking about Unimesh, actually already a included feature since Poser Pro 2014. Just not commonly used by creators, some do use it but but these creators can be counted on one hand. When SM released that feature there were not many interested creators using that feature so they kept on using the common way. Guess it was caused due the support of V4 that is not a unimesh built figure. Unimesh rigging feature is found in the skinning method in Poser it is just named differently. So unmesh would be nothing else then renaming a existing feature. Questionable is if Creators are ever willing to use this method in the future as majority never did until now.

My guess is that the main issue for that Unimesh support would be adapting the Setup room to completely support this skinning method. Right now , yes Unimesh is fully supported but not very stable in the setup room, Leaving you the only option to work with external programs like Blender. So adapting the setup room to unimesh might also break the old skinning method, unless the build a secondary setup room for Unimesh ( Just a guess ) basically a totally new type of engine compared to the capsule tris rigging methods commonly used.

vopehov506 posted at 9:44 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456877

randym77 posted at 1:02 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456852

There's some discussion in this thread:

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2977561/march-23rd-right-around-the-corner

I'm a little disappointed, since they promised us unimesh and a new figure. End users probably won't really notice, though. Hopefully this means no unimesh yet, not that they've given up on it. As I understand it, unimesh support/figures will make Poser more compatible with other software, making it easier to import and export stuff.

Note, unimesh as DAZ used the term a couple of decades ago is not what they're talking about here. No unimesh support doesn't mean you can't use V4. It's a completely different definition of unimesh.

Speaking about Unimesh, actually already a included feature since Poser Pro 2014. Just not commonly used by creators, some do use it but but these creators can be counted on one hand. When SM released that feature there were not many interested creators using that feature so they kept on using the common way. Guess it was caused due the support of V4 that is not a unimesh built figure. Unimesh rigging feature is found in the skinning method in Poser it is just named differently. So unmesh would be nothing else then renaming a existing feature. Questionable is if Creators are ever willing to use this method in the future as majority never did until now.

So you've stated on numerous occasions.

Explain. Do you mean Simple Bones Single Skin-Interoperable?

Sure. It exports a unimesh (include existing groups or not), it also generates a wrong number of vertices error for FBM derived from such an export. Which I'll imagine is an isolated vertices problem, though I've never gone so far as to look. So what's the advantage if that's the case?

I'm all ears. Always looking to pick up new tricks but they're getting few and far between.

GoZ or a comparison reference mesh export python is still the only solution as far as I can see...

Edit:

Your comments about the rigging limitations do make some sense as far as conjecture goes though...

I'm not an expert on this but I think that Victoria and Michael 4 are Unimesh figures. Does this mean we won't be able to use Victoria and Michael 4 and all the morphs, textures, clothes and hair we bought for them in Poser 13? If that's the case I*'ll be staying with Poser 12.

peter_wade posted at 10:43 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456883

I'm not an expert on this but I think that Victoria and Michael 4 are Unimesh figures. Does this mean we won't be able to use Victoria and Michael 4 and all the morphs, textures, clothes and hair we bought for them in Poser 13? If that's the case I*'ll be staying with Poser 12.

That is not the same unimesh.

peter_wade posted at 10:43 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456883

I'm not an expert on this but I think that Victoria and Michael 4 are Unimesh figures. Does this mean we won't be able to use Victoria and Michael 4 and all the morphs, textures, clothes and hair we bought for them in Poser 13? If that's the case I*'ll be staying with Poser 12.

Ok.

It's a semantics problem.

V4 and M4 are unimesh in the sense that they are both derivatives of one mesh. Unimesh in Daz's old terminology means it's one mesh for all the figures.

Poser Unimesh in this context is a skinning method; how the skeleton is attached to the mesh. It's a rigging terminology. Instead of the mesh being welded and unwelded at the body part actor groups, it's a contiguous unbroken mesh. So this effects exports, which by default separates the groups, and subdivision and vertice numbering and winding order, primarily. Without a kludge or translator to deal with this welding and unwelding there's various headaches and cross software translation problems. It's Poser's lingering bugbear.

V4 and M4 are Poser traditional skinning. Poser traditional skinning isn't going anywhere at the moment. Poser wouldn't work without it as it stands for who knows when. 

I won't bother commenting on the confusion that Full Unimesh support adds to the equation in relation to the existing Unimesh Skinning as it stands with Poser. Surely there's someone on the payroll at Rendo who can actually take the time to explain it as it's apparently an issue. Of course there's probably not much incentive to alleviate the fears about decades old rival company figure compatibility, but judging by the state of things there should be... such is the hole that's being dug here.

@peter_wade: the Victoria unimesh was a DAZ marketing gimmick about using one mesh topology for male and female figures. The unimesh that is now built into Poser but not yet ready to be launched in the March release is about the way things are organised in the very guts of Poser. Two completely different things.

From what I understand: 

V4 "Unimesh" = uses the same mesh topology for female, male, child etc figures. Has nothing to do with rigging methods.

Poser Unimesh = cuts up the figure into body parts upon creation, then stitches them back up so that things like Subdivision can work. Doesn't make any difference for end users, but for content creators this adds more steps that we have to be careful for when creating things, also complicates bringing HD (subdivided) morphs into Poser, and brings a bunch of bugs when attempting to add some features into the rigging.

(edit: I'm not on the payroll, what I'm saying is not official, just the info I've gathered from experience. Could be wrong, etc.)

True Unimesh = doesn't cut up the figure at all. I'd wager the dev team is having trouble bringing this into Poser because it would change a very core functionality of it that's been around ever since Poser exists.

peter_wade posted at 10:43 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456883

I'm not an expert on this but I think that Victoria and Michael 4 are Unimesh figures. Does this mean we won't be able to use Victoria and Michael 4 and all the morphs, textures, clothes and hair we bought for them in Poser 13? If that's the case I*'ll be staying with Poser 12.

V4 M4 are not unimesh they are cut. A unimesh figure can't be taken apart on the joints. A unimesh figure would only stretch, meaning that there are no double edges, the edges are merged and there are no Doubles. Rigging on a real unimesh is "single" and not Tris there are no capsules or spheres, Painted influences on bendings can influence the whole mesh not only the bodypart. So in theory the left shoulder can as well influence the right thigh, that depends un how you paint. Advantage is that you can mix Hard shell bending and stretch bending, witch is not possible using the Poser traditional mode.

V4 sample ( Not Unimesh )

Can anyone clarify something for me?

I have dozens of texture sets that do not work with SuperFly due to showing seams, unless Is use the Poser option: Poser Skinning Method : Poser Unimesh

Are we saying that this workaround will go away in Poser 13? If so that will be a big deal for many folks I suspect.

A Unimesh will not be the reason to remove seams, from what I know it has nothing to do with texturing. seams depend on how the figure is mapped, so this rather would be a remapping that could fix seams. Also I do not believe that a upgrade in poser setup room to unimesh would influence the use of non unimesh figures they will keep on working just as they did before. As far as I understand they mainly try figuring out building a unimesh poser figure using "single skin" ( Was mentioned by Nerd ), naturally it takes time if the staff is still learning them selves all the single skin functions, like I mentioned there are not many that ever started using that feature in poser jet so it is a large learning path for the ones who are starting now.

Further to know is if you use a unimesh based on single skin rigging any edge needs to be merged cut edges cause breaks on bending, the figure will bend very smooth, using for example a scale armor for your figure also based on single skin but the scale armor is not unimesh but cut, it will allow a realistic bending without distorting and bending the scales when conformed to your unimesh single skin model.

All this naturally will take you further away from DS as DS does absolutely not support single skin and probably will not allow this support in the near future ( Locked feature ) so with unimesh single skin, compatibility to DS will totally be dropped.

ader posted at 1:53 PM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456916

Can anyone clarify something for me?

I have dozens of texture sets that do not work with SuperFly due to showing seams, unless Is use the Poser option: Poser Skinning Method : Poser Unimesh

Are we saying that this workaround will go away in Poser 13? If so that will be a big deal for many folks I suspect.

Nope.

Continue to use unimesh skinning for the Superfly body part seam problem.

Nobody said they were doing away with the Unimesh Skinning in scene option,  "Full" unimesh support simply isn't being added.

The accepted solution, as far as I know, for that Superfly specific artifact is switching to unimesh skinning in the figure menu. Which most do anyway to take advantage of figure SubD levels.

Thanks, I know there not seams per se as they can't be fixed by texture editing despite the issue existing for some textures and not others. 

I use this option for SubD too - but good to hear these textures will still work okay. 

So this means Poser 13 figures will have a cut-geometry like Poser 1 to Poser 7 figures as seen in vopehov506 example picture of an un-welded V4?
If so, how will the morph editor handle this, especially on smoothing geometry. Will this lead into mesh gaps?

Nevertrumper posted at 5:53 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456973

So this means Poser 13 figures will have a cut-geometry like Poser 1 to Poser 7 figures as seen in vopehov506 example picture of an un-welded V4?
If so, how will the morph editor handle this, especially on smoothing geometry. Will this lead into mesh gaps?

Doubting that future ( New ) models will be Cut in poser they will be unimesh just like LaFemme was made. They will just not rig it as Single skin ( Knowledge still needs to be Learned by the Creators )  There are allot of Unimesh figures already in poser and offered in the Stores but they are still rigged using the traditional Poser methods ( Capsule Triax WM methods ) I believe that the few left creators will be continuing using the traditional way ( Same type like DS is using ) Single skin rigging is the type that is used in Blender, CAD, Maya, even carrara uses this method. It is the key for better external support, Fast import export and direct modifications with 3rd applications. Like mentioned the feature is already existent in Poser just not in the Setup room. To rig into single skin you need a good knowledge with creation software Unreal can also be helpful for such matters. In theory your models in poser will just work like game-engine models if rigged based on single skin. It all depends on the willing of creators using this stunning method even that it already consists since 2014 so Bondware might be trying to push creators onto this direction.  

vopehov506 posted at 1:26 PM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456912

peter_wade posted at 10:43 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456883

I'm not an expert on this but I think that Victoria and Michael 4 are Unimesh figures. Does this mean we won't be able to use Victoria and Michael 4 and all the morphs, textures, clothes and hair we bought for them in Poser 13? If that's the case I*'ll be staying with Poser 12.

V4 M4 are not unimesh they are cut. A unimesh figure can't be taken apart on the joints. A unimesh figure would only stretch, meaning that there are no double edges, the edges are merged and there are no Doubles. Rigging on a real unimesh is "single" and not Tris there are no capsules or spheres, Painted influences on bendings can influence the whole mesh not only the bodypart. So in theory the left shoulder can as well influence the right thigh, that depends un how you paint. Advantage is that you can mix Hard shell bending and stretch bending, witch is not possible using the Poser traditional mode.

V4 sample ( Not Unimesh )

By any chance did you save V4 under a new filename, which could have split the mesh apart?

V4 and M4 are, indeed, unified meshes. They do contain groups, but the groups are welded in the OBJ file that is in the Geometries folder. If you load Victoria 4.2 it should not be split apart as you show. Here's a file with the abdomen moved along the Y and Z axes, and with hidden parameters shown in P12 so that the abdomen can be translated. As you can see, the groups are welded together, not split apart as you show above.

vopehov506 posted at 9:00 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456979

Nevertrumper posted at 5:53 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456973

So this means Poser 13 figures will have a cut-geometry like Poser 1 to Poser 7 figures as seen in vopehov506 example picture of an un-welded V4?
If so, how will the morph editor handle this, especially on smoothing geometry. Will this lead into mesh gaps?

Doubting that future ( New ) models will be Cut in poser they will be unimesh just like LaFemme was made. They will just not rig it as Single skin ( Knowledge still needs to be Learned by the Creators )  There are allot of Unimesh figures already in poser and offered in the Stores but they are still rigged using the traditional Poser methods ( Capsule Triax WM methods ) I believe that the few left creators will be continuing using the traditional way ( Same type like DS is using ) Single skin rigging is the type that is used in Blender, CAD, Maya, even carrara uses this method. It is the key for better external support, Fast import export and direct modifications with 3rd applications. Like mentioned the feature is already existent in Poser just not in the Setup room. To rig into single skin you need a good knowledge with creation software Unreal can also be helpful for such matters. In theory your models in poser will just work like game-engine models if rigged based on single skin. It all depends on the willing of creators using this stunning method even that it already consists since 2014 so Bondware might be trying to push creators onto this direction.  

So, how to make sure body groups don't split up, when going to zbrush for creating custom morph targets?
This used to be a problem when with Poser.

I think he may have just been demonstrating the unwelding that happens when you export a figure mesh from a "live" cr2 in scene and reimport... the consequence being a change of the vertice count (doubling at breaks), and a winding order botch if you re-weld via weld identical.

Nevertrumper posted at 9:38 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456981

vopehov506 posted at 9:00 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456979

Nevertrumper posted at 5:53 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456973

So this means Poser 13 figures will have a cut-geometry like Poser 1 to Poser 7 figures as seen in vopehov506 example picture of an un-welded V4?
If so, how will the morph editor handle this, especially on smoothing geometry. Will this lead into mesh gaps?

Doubting that future ( New ) models will be Cut in poser they will be unimesh just like LaFemme was made. They will just not rig it as Single skin ( Knowledge still needs to be Learned by the Creators )  There are allot of Unimesh figures already in poser and offered in the Stores but they are still rigged using the traditional Poser methods ( Capsule Triax WM methods ) I believe that the few left creators will be continuing using the traditional way ( Same type like DS is using ) Single skin rigging is the type that is used in Blender, CAD, Maya, even carrara uses this method. It is the key for better external support, Fast import export and direct modifications with 3rd applications. Like mentioned the feature is already existent in Poser just not in the Setup room. To rig into single skin you need a good knowledge with creation software Unreal can also be helpful for such matters. In theory your models in poser will just work like game-engine models if rigged based on single skin. It all depends on the willing of creators using this stunning method even that it already consists since 2014 so Bondware might be trying to push creators onto this direction.  

So, how to make sure body groups don't split up, when going to zbrush for creating custom morph targets?
This used to be a problem when with Poser.

Nothing has changed. GoZ will return a proper welded FBM target. The whole point is that a feature isn't being added, not an existing feature being removed. This is Poser morph creation 101 stuff.

There's other ways to return valid results for FBM/JCM without error besides just GoZ incidentally. There has been for a long time.

La femme is partial unimesh, it's not the full implementation that is being sought here in 13, only live in scene or directly from geometries will the mesh be contiguous across groups. If you export that figure with include poly groups it too will be unwelded.

SMH...

primorge posted at 9:49 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456984

La femme is partial unimesh, it's not the full implementation that is being sought here in 13, only live in scene or directly from geometries will the mesh be contiguous across groups. If you export that figure with include poly groups it too will be unwelded.

SMH...

I guess I would refer to OBJ files that are welded at the group boundaries as "unified meshes." I think that is a more understandable definition of "unimesh" in regards to this type of figure. The OBJ file DOES contain group information, but the groups are not split apart at the seams. 

The DAZ Unimesh figures ARE unified meshes.

Miki 4 is a unified mesh.

Figures created for Poser 10 and later ARE unified meshes.

Does that make more sense?

DCArt posted at 9:10 AM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4456980

vopehov506 posted at 1:26 PM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456912

peter_wade posted at 10:43 AM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456883

I'm not an expert on this but I think that Victoria and Michael 4 are Unimesh figures. Does this mean we won't be able to use Victoria and Michael 4 and all the morphs, textures, clothes and hair we bought for them in Poser 13? If that's the case I*'ll be staying with Poser 12.

V4 M4 are not unimesh they are cut. A unimesh figure can't be taken apart on the joints. A unimesh figure would only stretch, meaning that there are no double edges, the edges are merged and there are no Doubles. Rigging on a real unimesh is "single" and not Tris there are no capsules or spheres, Painted influences on bendings can influence the whole mesh not only the bodypart. So in theory the left shoulder can as well influence the right thigh, that depends un how you paint. Advantage is that you can mix Hard shell bending and stretch bending, witch is not possible using the Poser traditional mode.

V4 sample ( Not Unimesh )

By any chance did you save V4 under a new filename, which could have split the mesh apart?

V4 and M4 are, indeed, unified meshes. They do contain groups, but the groups are welded in the OBJ file that is in the Geometries folder. If you load Victoria 4.2 it should not be split apart as you show. Here's a file with the abdomen moved along the Y and Z axes, and with hidden parameters shown in P12 so that the abdomen can be translated. As you can see, the groups are welded together, not split apart as you show above.

you notice if it is a unimesh or a cut when disabling the bend feature in the individual bodypart, for instance if you disable the bend in V4 it will show that it is cut, doing so on La Femme will not cut but the parts still will stretch, La femme has no double Edges like V4 is having on the joints . Leaving bend "ON" on a cut will glue the parts together but still they are cut. This is what this feature actually is for and would be of no use on Unimesh single skin rigging it simulates a unimesh. So No I did not save V4 under a new name or made a change that would cut her she comes cut out of the package.

Here's the deal.

Import V4 or the La Femme mesh into the scene from Geometries as static obj.

Welded, one mesh. With groups.

Export that obj back out as an obj with include existing groups.

One mesh again.

Now, load V4 or LF into the scene from the library as a cr2.

Export V4 or LF out as an obj now for morphing. You'll need to include existing groups in order to have the actor groups for FBM.

Guess what you end up with? An unwelded mesh. Unusable for morphing in an external app because of the splits in the mesh at the group boundaries. GoZ and various scripts act as translators to circumvent this. There's also a tedious way around this by importing the figure mesh from geometries as a prop (grouped) and using an ungrouped version to morph externally, loading that resulting alteration as a morph target onto the static grouped version and spawning props from the relevant effected body parts and applying again as FBM. Grouped props are not unwelded, Grouped figures are.

Full Unimesh Support seeks to eliminate all of this, amongst other problems. We're not getting it as was stated. Yet.

But that splitting apart at groups is done in Poser, the base mesh itself is indeed welded.

As a demonstration, import the blMilWom_v4b.obj file from Runtime > Geometries > DAZPeople into Poser as a prop. You'll notice that the groups are not split apart. 

GMTA primorge, we cross posted LOL

 For Nobs: you will realize the cut if you import V4 into Blender for instance. After Import simply tick on remove doubles and you will notice how many edges are double. or just by selecting the linked faces after selecting just one, it will just select one bodypart that you can pull away. Would it be a unimesh it would select the whole figure after hitting linked faces.  

If I load the default V4 OBJ (blMilWom_v4b.obj file from Runtime > Geometries > DAZPeople) into Modo, and then click the abdomen, ALL of the body parts corresponding to the skin are selected. This is a unified mesh (see top in screen shot). 

On the other hand, if I export V4 from Poser with all options unchecked, and load that into Modo, it's split apart. On the bottom, I double-click the abdomen, and it only selects the abdomen.

vopehov506 posted at 2:48 PM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456927

Further to know is if you use a unimesh based on single skin rigging any edge needs to be merged cut edges cause breaks on bending, the figure will bend very smooth, using for example a scale armor for your figure also based on single skin but the scale armor is not unimesh but cut, it will allow a realistic bending without distorting and bending the scales when conformed to your unimesh single skin model.

All this naturally will take you further away from DS as DS does absolutely not support single skin and probably will not allow this support in the near future ( Locked feature ) so with unimesh single skin, compatibility to DS will totally be dropped.

That's interesting, and sounds like something end users would like, even if they don't make any content themselves. Something worth paying for.

Curious that DS doesn't support it. It's a locked feature? Does that mean they could do it, but don't allow it?

I am realizing that until creators will really be capable using unimesh single skin WM it will pass years until getting understanding for it , did not happen until now even that it is since almost a decade possible and probably will not really happen in the next years to come. Until then 3D will evolve even more ending up with a knowledge that is 2 decades behind the actual tech. I have a learning path of over 5 years with simple skinning and still I am learning, sure it is not easy to make this change as it is totally different then the methodes used in DS and Poser traditional, as long as you stick on these triax method you will not find the correct way using single skinning, that for sure. Gues it is the main reason why it has been dropped for the first launch of Poser 13 :) 

Not included in the initial release of Poser 13.

It says in the initial release, but I don't know if there are plans to support it.

No updates are listed for the Hair or Cloth rooms.

No matter how much you improve the renderer, if the rendered figure, its hair, and the wrinkles in its clothing are not realistic, it will be ruined.

The rendering results will not be much different from the previous renderings

Fortunately, the end users who create the scenes, render the images, and produce the animations are not affected. It says "but is the end user the only target?

I can't help but feel that POSER will be left behind in the evolution of the 3DCG world.

What do you guys think about the simple fact that the initial release of Poser 13 does not support unimesh and there is no mention of Hair and Cloth rooms?

randym77 posted at 12:39 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457000

vopehov506 posted at 2:48 PM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456927

Further to know is if you use a unimesh based on single skin rigging any edge needs to be merged cut edges cause breaks on bending, the figure will bend very smooth, using for example a scale armor for your figure also based on single skin but the scale armor is not unimesh but cut, it will allow a realistic bending without distorting and bending the scales when conformed to your unimesh single skin model.

All this naturally will take you further away from DS as DS does absolutely not support single skin and probably will not allow this support in the near future ( Locked feature ) so with unimesh single skin, compatibility to DS will totally be dropped.

That's interesting, and sounds like something end users would like, even if they don't make any content themselves. Something worth paying for.

Curious that DS doesn't support it. It's a locked feature? Does that mean they could do it, but don't allow it?

My guess is that it is locked because Daz does not want simplified Import of rigged models, It would mean to be a game changer for DS and  creators would not be depending on the genesis bases for standalone models anymore. Meaning that DS Models would be less unique and allot of independent stores could pop up all over the internet that sell DS supported standalones ( Non Genesiss Based ) this might cut there revenue big time. DS does have the support but it is locked on Import, export works as you also get all kinds of exporters for Unreal Maya Blender etc so that the genesiss can be exported and unique offered by Daz. Actually a understandable business method.

As a purely end user, here is what I think:

Right now, after understanding the whole unimesh thing (thanks for explaining, guys!)--my main issue is that you can fix the render engine as much as you want, if there are no quality Superlfy-capable products on the market, the program is doomed. A ton of content is not easy to translate/ retexture because there are no good tutorials about it, so end user needs to discover by trial and error. Also, textures and promo renders (with a very few exception) for new poser products are subpar to those for DAZ.
You can't change end user behavior if you don't support vendor understanding and end user learning.

vopehov506 posted at 12:50 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457004

randym77 posted at 12:39 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457000

vopehov506 posted at 2:48 PM Sat, 25 February 2023 - #4456927

Further to know is if you use a unimesh based on single skin rigging any edge needs to be merged cut edges cause breaks on bending, the figure will bend very smooth, using for example a scale armor for your figure also based on single skin but the scale armor is not unimesh but cut, it will allow a realistic bending without distorting and bending the scales when conformed to your unimesh single skin model.

All this naturally will take you further away from DS as DS does absolutely not support single skin and probably will not allow this support in the near future ( Locked feature ) so with unimesh single skin, compatibility to DS will totally be dropped.

That's interesting, and sounds like something end users would like, even if they don't make any content themselves. Something worth paying for.

Curious that DS doesn't support it. It's a locked feature? Does that mean they could do it, but don't allow it?

My guess is that it is locked because Daz does not want simplified Import of rigged models, It would mean to be a game changer for DS and  creators would not be depending on the genesis bases for standalone models anymore. Meaning that DS Models would be less unique and allot of independent stores could pop up all over the internet that sell DS supported standalones ( Non Genesiss Based ) this might cut there revenue big time. DS does have the support but it is locked on Import, export works as you also get all kinds of exporters for Unreal Maya Blender etc so that the genesiss can be exported and unique offered by Daz. Actually a understandable business method.

Thanks, makes sense. Poser was always more open to user tinkering, but I wonder if that will remain true under Bondware. Like DAZ, they make their money selling content.

Just Imagine, the moment DS or Poser adds full support of Unimesh simple skinning with big promotions, these applications will offer full support for any rigged model on the market and also floods of free models. For DAZ probably a disaster as you can get them very cheap and also find floods of free models that are superior to the ones offered in the Poser DS stores. Customers would realize that fact quiet fast. So For DS sure a no go , For Poser I have no Idea might be a possibility attracting more Vendors to Renderosity that support poser and sell there Products here. But sure a risk then they might as well start selling otherwise due a easy compatibility.

Rhia474 posted at 12:51 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457005

As a purely end user, here is what I think:

Right now, after understanding the whole unimesh thing (thanks for explaining, guys!)--my main issue is that you can fix the render engine as much as you want, if there are no quality Superlfy-capable products on the market, the program is doomed. A ton of content is not easy to translate/ retexture because there are no good tutorials about it, so end user needs to discover by trial and error. Also, textures and promo renders (with a very few exception) for new poser products are subpar to those for DAZ.
You can't change end user behavior if you don't support vendor understanding and end user learning.

Agreed. Some of the Superfly promo images are awful. (Though they seem to be improving.)

And I think Superfly is honestly more difficult and finicky than Firefly. (Which is difficult and finicky enough.) As others have noted, once you find settings you like in Firefly, they pretty much work for every scene. With Superfly, you need to fiddle with the settings for every different scene.

It doesn't help that preview doesn't work well with a lot of Superfly materials, and it takes so long to do even test renders.

Vendor understanding would definitely help. That's how it was with Firefly, as I recall. Promo renders that made people want to buy the product, and often it would come with a light set and instructions on render settings.

Mighty bold of you to think that vendors are willing to learn any new features in Poser, randym77.  Historically, too many are aggressively uninterested in taking the time to learn new features - especially if the end users aren't willing to use them either.

Lighting/rendering has been an issue in Poser since at least Poser 5 that I am personally aware of.  The Poser team in the past worked under the assumption that Poser end users have a photography background.  That hasn't changed, apparently.

Until there is a 1-click firefly-superfly conversion process for ALL materials, superfly is irrelevant for a lot of users.

From my perspective - This isn't Poser 13. 

It is Poser 12.1.

ssgbryan posted at 2:06 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457012

Mighty bold of you to think that vendors are willing to learn any new features in Poser, randym77.  Historically, too many are aggressively uninterested in taking the time to learn new features - especially if the end users aren't willing to use them either.

Lighting/rendering has been an issue in Poser since at least Poser 5 that I am personally aware of.  The Poser team in the past worked under the assumption that Poser end users have a photography background.  That hasn't changed, apparently.

Until there is a 1-click firefly-superfly conversion process for ALL materials, superfly is irrelevant for a lot of users.

From my perspective - This isn't Poser 13. 

It is Poser 12.1.

There are however a few vendors that do supply Superfly versions of their textures and also lighting set ups so there are a few that go the extra mile.

vopehov506 posted at 1:07 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457007

Just Imagine, the moment DS or Poser adds full support of Unimesh simple skinning with big promotions, these applications will offer full support for any rigged model on the market and also floods of free models. For DAZ probably a disaster as you can get them very cheap and also find floods of free models that are superior to the ones offered in the Poser DS stores. Customers would realize that fact quiet fast. So For DS sure a no go , For Poser I have no Idea might be a possibility attracting more Vendors to Renderosity that support poser and sell there Products here. But sure a risk then they might as well start selling otherwise due a easy compatibility.

I hope that's the path Bondware chooses. Not only would it be better for us users...I don't think they can beat DAZ at their own game. They have to do something different.

ssgbryan posted at 2:06 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457012

Mighty bold of you to think that vendors are willing to learn any new features in Poser, randym77.  Historically, too many are aggressively uninterested in taking the time to learn new features - especially if the end users aren't willing to use them either.

Lighting/rendering has been an issue in Poser since at least Poser 5 that I am personally aware of.  The Poser team in the past worked under the assumption that Poser end users have a photography background.  That hasn't changed, apparently.

Until there is a 1-click firefly-superfly conversion process for ALL materials, superfly is irrelevant for a lot of users.

From my perspective - This isn't Poser 13. 

It is Poser 12.1.

I think part of the problem is that Superfly really isn't that big an improvement, at least with stuff Poser users render (humans).

Firefly was a quantum leap over the Poser 4 renderer. Users may not have known much about it, but they wanted to learn to use it, because the results were so much better. I remember a group of us getting together to make Firefly MATs for products that didn't have them. You'd choose a character, make MATs, and post them as free stuff.

I suppose that may be less necessary now, with scripts like EZskin. But I also think there's less interest. Superfly just doesn't look so much better than Firefly that people want to jump through hoops to use it.

Superfly does not look better because there are no good tutorials as to how to use it. End users need to scour for how-tos or ask people here and kludge our way through until we can figure it out, or rely of people like Snarly to convert things.

Of course when you look at promo renders with, again, a very small number of exception, or try with the settings provided, you will get crappy results. No one teaches how to use it. I did not use Firefly since Poser 12 came out, but I kludge my way through everything. It is super frustrating and very lonely.

Rhia474 posted at 5:05 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457027

Superfly does not look better because there are no good tutorials as to how to use it. End users need to scour for how-tos or ask people here and kludge our way through until we can figure it out, or rely of people like Snarly to convert things.

Of course when you look at promo renders with, again, a very small number of exception, or try with the settings provided, you will get crappy results. No one teaches how to use it. I did not use Firefly since Poser 12 came out, but I kludge my way through everything. It is super frustrating and very lonely.

I think it's more than that. I think we're reaching the point of diminishing returns. Look at a Poser 4 render, and there's a ton of room for improvement. No one would mistake it for a photograph.

Someone who is skilled with Firefly can produce nearly photoreal renders. There's an upper limit to improvement. You can't make renders more real than real life. Any improvements will be relatively minor compared to the jump from Poser 4 to Firefly.

I'd like to see better toon and sketch options. I'd find that a lot more useful than small improvements in realism.

That is EXACTLY the problem, Rhia.

The stuff that is using Superfly is meh.

I don't do pin up art, so most of it is useless for me.

If bondware thought about it - they would either add a script that will batch convert firefly mats to superfly, or they could contract that out.

But, at the end of the day - they need something to do this otherwise, I don't see the point of Superfly.

On Topic Archaic Non GoZ/Non Python Script Unimesh FBM method Demo.

For this example I'll be using the LF Dev cr2.

Preamble;

Before the advent of the GoZ bridge to Zbrush or Python script translation/figure reference methods there was a way to guarantee the ability to create cross body part full body morphs in external softwares without worrying about the unwelding caused from exporting out of Poser via in scene cr2 figure.

Most contemporary Poser figure cr2s reference a Unimesh obj contained in the Geometries folder of a relevant Runtime. Occasionally you'll come across unwelded models, this usually concerns very old legacy Poser figures or the result of sloppiness on the part of a content creator. By unwelded this means not unimesh; Not a unified mesh. Broken apart at body part groups into separate parts corresponding to the figure's actors, a peculiarity of Poser software figure tech that's deep at the core of Poser code and the crux of the Unimesh dilemma. This has a host of implications but here I'm focusing on the problem it poses to external morph creation.

The major problem with creating Full Body Morphs for Poser in external softwares is twofold.

If you export a figure out of Poser as an OBJ file with the intent of FBM creation it requires the existence of polygonal groups corresponding to each body part of the figure. If the export does not contain said groups Poser cannot translate the morph modifications across body parts into a working full body morph upon re-import. The command to include such body part groups is dictated by the include existing groups in polygon groups checkbox in the OBJ export dialogue.

Exporting in such a manner causes Poser to break apart the mesh into parts corresponding to the existing groups.

Trying to morph across such breaks in the model causes visible seams in the resulting morph.

A solution to this is to create the morph(s) by utilizing the referenced grouped unimesh from the Geometries folder rather than an export from scene. The problem with this is that various softwares interpret poygonal groups in unique ways. Some softwares break apart the OBJ into separate individual parts corresponding to each polygonal group. Wings3D does this.

Some have options for how the groups are handled. Blender for instance has an obj importer that dictates split into parts by group or not, maintain vertex order, establish vertex groups per polygonal group for use as selections, hiding, and the like. Very flexible. FBM creation via Geometries import is perfectly viable in Blender, that's why I'm always mystified by Poser users moaning about a Blender bridge for morphing. JCM creation is of course a very good reason to desire such a bridge, that's a different topic, but most times the complaints are in relation to standard 0 rotations morph/FBM creation.

Zbrush used to break apart the mesh into parts per group, last I recall this was version 2 if I remember correctly, unusable. Now it maintains the integrity of the Unimesh while maintaining the groups. Useful for selective hiding, masking etc. Viable for FBM creation without a translator.

Mudbox operates very similar to Zbrush. Maintains Unimesh, Polygonal groups viable, maintains vertex order all default.

Things are much better now than they used to be in relation to options for handling groups in OBJ, at least from my observations.

The old method to guarantee a viable model for use across softwares without worrying about how the groups are handled or the unwelding that a "live" export causes used to go something like this, and is still a viable method if maybe a bit clunky to instant gratification types. These days I use PML and GoZ, which have the added benefit of flexibility in JCM and difference morph stuff, but this old method might also be useful to someone who finds themselves spending a bunch of time creating a FBM but forgot to include the grouping information on the trip back to Poser; on that front it's a working method for recovery. The demo also might help clarify stuff about the whole topic of Unimesh in Poser.

I start by loading the figure I want to morph externally from the relevant character library folder, LF Dev here...

I then go to File: Import: Wavefront OBJ and navigate to the relevant Geometries folder for LF and import the LaLFemme1 obj (or the compressed obz file, it will import as well), leave all options unchecked/default in the dialogue.

I hide the dev figure. I have the LF figure and the referenced obj file (which is Unimesh and grouped) as a static prop in the scene...

I then return to file menu and export the reference prop I just imported as OBJ but this time I dump all the group information by not checking include existing groups in polygon groups in the dialogue, just leave everything unchecked.

A little clarification here. An export of a cr2 from scene as grouped OBJ will split apart the mesh at actor/groups. Conversely if you export a prop with existing groups no such splitting will occur.

In this instance I dump the groups from the prop to circumvent how other softwares would interpret these polygonal groups. No groups, only one way to interpret... as a single object. Save the OBJ with a name that you can identify as your ungrouped morphing reference object.

I'm using Mudbox here to do the FBM creation. Just a fast and dirty stereotypical Alien Head type morph that involves the head and neck...

With the demo morph done I export as a Wavefront OBJ and save it as AlienHeadLF.

Returning to Poser I select the grouped static prop LF in scene and load the created morph to the prop via load morph target in the props properties tab. I dial the resulting morph to 1. I now have a morph applied to a grouped unimesh prop obj via an ungrouped export mesh.

I go to File: Export: Wavefront OBJ, single frame, clear the Hierarchy of selections by clicking the Universe check box or Select None button.

Check only the include existing groups in polygon groups checkbox.

I'm exporting the grouped prop obj file that has the morph applied. Give it a unique name that is identifiable or overwrite your external software morph file (not recommended unless your absolutely sure).

Apply this file via the Figure Menu: Load Full Body Morph option to the in scene cr2 figure.

Dial the morph to 1 via the Body actor parm that's been generated...

There used to be a step requiring spawning of props from relevant groups. Its been a long time but this was before the handy option of Load full body morph. My memory is a bit fuzzy on the particulars.

As an aside there's also an old workaround for the creation of subtractive difference morphs; that is, morphs that can be layered and are treated as being generated at a default state even if they are created over top a dialed in morph baked into the state of the export obj. Only those vertices moved during the latest iteration are calculated as a difference; no morph telescoping from a baked in state. It's possible to do this manually through a few steps but such things are typically handled via GoZ or a Python reference obj translator now, which also handles the welding, post transform, and vertex order stuff. A different topic, but would be nice if such a thing were just built into the Figure Menu or Export options somehow.

End of diversion.

Rhia474 posted at 5:05 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457027

Of course when you look at promo renders with, again, a very small number of exception, or try with the settings provided, you will get crappy results. No one teaches how to use it. I did not use Firefly since Poser 12 came out, but I kludge my way through everything. It is super frustrating and very lonely.

On the same boat with you there.

As I understand this, it would be easy to create morphs from a base geometry *.obj, but when you want to create new morphs on top of already existing morphs, you will might get into trouble, because you will have to deal with splitting up body part seams.

"With Poser 13, you can now set up your own start-up scene, complete with your favorite figures, props, and settings."

Can someone explain why this is listed as a new feature? We've had this ability for years. What's different about it?

AmbientShade posted at 3:53 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457054

"With Poser 13, you can now set up your own start-up scene, complete with your favorite figures, props, and settings."

Can someone explain why this is listed as a new feature? We've had this ability for years. What's different about it?

This part puzzled me as well. Does Bondware really know Poser?