You go Ironbear! Is that Kupa behind that MMmmmmmask? >>> As a consultant in customer relationship management, I consider this an almost unbelievable attempt by a software company to totally destroy its credibility. This is the stuff that makes great case studies to use in CRM seminars... Thanks! >>> Amen Kelderek and this episode is only the latest in a series of them so far.

Kupa? Oh... wouldn't THAT be frigging rich. ;] Surely Kupa wouldn't be dumb enough to think that he's dealing with an amatuer and try that, would he? smirk

I am so glad no one here thought to actually check Curious Labs website before bashing them so fully, and feeling so hurt and offended. The price sheet at Curious Labs shows two price options for Poser 4. Full version for $219 U.S. and an upgrade price for $99 .U.S. copied from the Curious Labs website. ((If you have a questionable Poser serial number of any origin or a copy of Poser that was part of a special promotion (such as a magazine cover CD), you may purchase a fully legal upgrade to Poser 4 here.)) The amnesty price being offered is $129 U.S. for the UPGRADE package, not the FULL VERSION. If a person had come by a legitimate Poser2 or Poser3, they could merrily and legally upgrade for $30 cheaper than the amnesty. All this does, is allow all those magazine versions of Poser3 to upgrade, like MetaCreations originally intended them to do when they released them. Yes in this plan some people will be allowed to upgrade a warez copy of Poser4 to a legitimate Poser4 for cheaper than buying a full version, but they are still only purchasing the $99 upgrade package. For those of you complaining bitterly that you overpaid for the FULL VERSION, have nothing to really complain about, anyone wishing to purchase a legal FULL VERSION still will be paying the same price that you paid. Anyone in the enviable position of legally buying and using the upgrade, will be getting it 30 bucks cheaper, than those with dodgy serial numbers, so where does crime pay here? This still looks to me like a sound business decision, there are thousands of magazine copy Poser 3's out there, that can now be upgraded, and some former warez kitties, may choose to come in out of the cold, and become legitimate users, and buying other products, like the Pro-Pack, or a legal Poser 5, or the avatar lab. This can help Curious Labs, and their revenue stream significantly, which only helps us the end user, with better, and cheaper programs in the future.

What are you babbling about?

A thief pays $129 and they get an upgrade to the FULL VERSION

Your statement;
"anyone wishing to purchase a legal FULL VERSION still will be paying the same price that you paid."

shows ignorance on your part.

You're entitled to your opinion on the issue.. but should you really be denying others the right to their opinions, by telling them they shouldn't be complaining, especially when you don't even understand what is going on?

Tisk tisk...In reference to #40 Just stopped in to read....

I started out with Poser 1 a dog's age ago, so every copy of Poser I've bought since has been an upgrade on that Poser 1. All of my upgrades looked exactly like the "full" versions of that release (complete with box, manuals, everything, including a new and different serial number when I went from Poser 3 to Poser 4.) In every case the only difference between my upgrade and a "full copy" was the price. So people who buy the legitimizing "upgrade" are getting a full copy of Poser 4 (everything a legit first-time buyer gets) as far as I know. -nemo

Welcomesite, I do understand, obvously you don't. People are complaining they purchased the Full Version of Poser 4 for $219 U.S. If someone today wished to purchase that same software, the price for that is $219 U.S., completely and utterly unchanged. Now maybe this is too much for you to grasp, there is an UPGRADE package at Curious Labs available for $99 U.S. I'll repeat this again, UPGRADE, not a stand alone Full Version. For a short period of time, if you have a version of Poser, be it, 2, or 3 that normally would accept the upgrade, but is of queasy origin, and likely wouldn't you install and run as legitimate. You can now buy that very same upgrade package for $129U.S. and get the assistance required to install it and run it and make it legal. The bone of contention here is the fact, that Curious Labs is also going to allow Poser 4 users of queasy, or just plain illegal origin to purchase this upgrade and become completely legal in regards to Poser 4. However that does not change the fact, the purchaser, is once more NOT getting the out of the box, complete with manuals, stand alone Full version of Poser 4. That still costs $219 U.S. What they are getting is the $99U.S. upgrade package, with whatever manuals that comes with. Now you may argue that in effect gives them a full version, but so what, that is what an upgrade supposed to do after all, but they are STILL not purchasing the same, top-of-the-line boxed set Full Version, that you did. To purchase that, the price remains $219 U.S.

X-perimental Man, my copy of the Poser 4 Upgrade was exactly the same as the full-price version that I saw in stores. It was completely stand-alone... it even came with a brand-new serial number. I had to provide my Poser 3 serial number when I ordered it to get the upgrade price, but that was it. So either you or I are confused here... the Poser 4 upgrade, from my personal experience, is no different than the full version. The only difference is that it's cheaper and that the upgrade versions usually check to make sure you have a previous version of the software installed on your computer. But I can tell you that I got all of the same manuals, the box, the CD of extra goodies, all the bells and whistles that a first-time purchaser got. If anyone else who upgraded got something different, then speak up. I guess it could be so, since I got my Poser 4 from MetaCreations not Curious Labs, but I'd be surprised as hell to hear it. Anything else wouldn't make sense. Why would a company short a loyal customer by giving them a stripped-down version of the next release of the product? They don't... they just give the previous purchaser a break on the price, not a different (lesser) version. -nemo

Sorry x-perimentalman... I grasp the situation, despite your accusations. It is you who are confused. You accuse everyone here of being 'inferior' to you, because you went to the website and 'checked the facts', while all of us 'lesser' whiners didn't, before making our complaints. The only problem is that you haven't got the slightest idea what "upgrade" means. Your mistake wouldn't be so bad if it weren't compounded by your sanctimonious preaching towards the rest of us, when it is in fact you, who is wrong. WAKE UP!

It's a plain simple reasoning: The more legal Poser users there are, the better. Will the amnesty create more legal Poser users? You bet it will.

I've been hanging around here for a little over a year and I am not upset that I paid to much for the software,I've gotten my monies worth from it. I even understand the buisness side of this decision and the possiblitiy of bringing others into the fold. What bothers me is that in the last year I have read thread after thread about how bad warez is in general and about how threatening it is to Curious Labs. I remember the thread about how bad the Pro Pack got hit by the thieves, and I remember Kupa (i believe) saying that if it happened again with their next release that Curious Labs probably wouldn't make it. I and many other took that message to heart, many have reported suspected theft, I've personally convinced two people to purchase it rather than downloading it. On my forums, I crack the head of anyone who brings up warezing it. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, because their are people here who have done even more, hell one guy here even offered to buy Poser 4 for someone just so they wouldn't be warezing it. And in return for that loyalty Curious Labs says... "Hey you those of you with 'questionable' Serial Numbers just pay us 129.00 and we'll call it good". That's not just dumb it is something of a slap in the face of everyone who tried to help them out. I'm not going to insult Kupa or Curious Labs, I'm not going to swear I will never buy Poser 5, cause I love this program, but am I going to be as vigilant for possible theft as before? That is the question I think alot of people are asking themselves. -Moon

Hello... I am probably going to get nuked for this, but in the classic words of Nero as he watched Rome burn.."Fuck it" I have to say this idea isn't going to work. Sure, you might get a couple of warez people who wrestle with the whole good vs bad conscious debates... but you aren't going to get the heavy warez users with this plan. Why trade it in and part with 129 bucks for a program they use for free? Why would they risk admitting guilt, to have a clear concious?? I really don't think they care what people think... they are takers and nothing more... expecting them to suddenly get "religion" and fork over money so the software company can sleep at night is a bit nieve. Now for the BIG blow here Meta Mannix I certainly hope that you are not who I think you are, for if you are, then I am really going to piss off someone that I thought was a friend or at the least a good acquaintance Yeah well all run to the next release maybe. Some of us may not though, I suspect. Some are going to remember what happened here and what was said. Some may just decide to save a few bucks and go the warez route because CLs plan just encouraged the ones that the Community helped to sway into buying the program and be legal, to hold out for a few months longer and get it cheaper As for saying this Community is self serving, demanding, and our loyalty to a product is based upon if it delivers what WE want God damn right we are!! Welcome to REALITY!! We BOUGHT the program with the expectations of it meeting and serving OUR needs. If you dont think that Curious Labs isnt just as SELF SERVING when it comes to Poser then you need a smack in the head. Lets be REALISTIC here, the main and perhaps ONLY reason they really give a crap about us is to get US to BUY their program and keep them from having to work at a Burger King as Bun Warmers. We are CONSUMERS our DESIRES have to be met if they ARE NOT then the product fails and welcome to FAST FOOD!! This is an equal partnership here. We use the program, help spread the word about it, encourage the viability of that product and in return, Curious Labs tries to meet our expections in their updates and releases. HOWEVER, if they ever treat us like idiots, give us crap product, call us names and we will just get our products elsewhere thats reality, thats business and thats life. Get over it!! Jack

it will work though jack, but mainly legit folks grabbing a dodgy serial number to get a cheap poser.....true space did the same and reading various forums they where swarming to buy it yet all said they didn't have a warez copy, heck some even said they'd post a bad number to help out and from what i could gather caligari didn't mind....Steve

Personally, I do hope it works.. makes our jobs at the forums easier if it does. :o) But in the same regard, I think that it will also encourage some others to go the warez route, because in a sick and twisted way... it is sort of a reward to them. Jack

good point and i'm sure a few will feel it builds there case for warez....catch 22 i guess ;o).....Steve

It's a lot easier to persuade a person who's basically honest, to steal, especially when they are given a rationale such as this.. than it is to persuade a thief to stop stealing. Many of us willingly pay for our software, comfortable in the feeling of righteousness this gives us. Does this 'amnesty' reinforce that 'good' feeling, or does it instead make you feel like a bit of a chump? We were loyal, we were honest.. .. and who ended up getting rewarded?

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That's not a 'response' It's just another plug for the amnesty deal. A 'response' would have addressed the disgust we feel over the way you are catering to thieves, just to make a few extra bucks. I'll bet you wish that you'd just included that serial number from the magazine version the first time.. and never mentioned that the deal included people with pirated versions. Why don't you just retract that part of the deal and admit you were wrong. Same effect in the end.. and you won't be pissing off your user base as badly.

Some of us have been using poser3 magazine copy for quite a while. Where were you guys when it cost only $99 to upgrade from that copy to the full version 4? This is our chance to upgrade. I really don't care about all this whining and crying and bitching. Just wait till I get my copy. It's time to give ya'll the run for your money. F**k all these naked women and stuff from twisted minds that turn around to cry. Let's see some real animation. Good job Steve!!! I don't care what anyone says. YOU ARE THE MAN. Boo hoo hoo :-( waa waa waa !!!! Get a life folks.

Cripes people what can i say i actualy started with pirate copy of poser but before the tut tut i did buy a retail version, one, because of the upgrades offered at the time 4.03 and also i was so impressed with the program and the community here i felt i would benifit more with a purchased copy (sigh!) (get the hankies out) than the bug ridden copy i got from a warez site but i wish the offer made by CL was a while back!!

Will the users of illegitemate copies of Poser please stand up? Don't even expect me to take the two of you seriously.

Well i was only echoing some of the points raised here that some people like myself do go on to buy the retail version and paid 225 whatever that will convert to $ and yes i like the rest of or should i say a most of the folks here look forward to the release of P5

Ohh isn't that cool. You can be a criminal and become from a wonderhand to a nice and beloved individual. I have paid 264 Dollars for Poser4-German-Version in Switzerland. And believe me, if there wasn't the time when most of us didn't have know if at any time we will find another Version (English) of Poser 4 then i wouldn't have buyed a German-Version. Because have all the time to do some special steps when packing a ZIP. (German-Version had a other file-naming-structur). Then when everything was clear with Poser, means their home was Curious Labs, i sent a mail to CL and explained my problem and ask if there is a chance to buy the english-version for a special price (In my Mail there was my full adress and the Poser4-Reg.-Nr.). And the answer was so cool. They told me i should buy a full poser4 english-version. And now all who had stolen it anywhere will receive it for a special price. Oh man, believe me, now i'm 100% not a satisfyed customer. Robert Egli aka SHARKEY

Shakey .. You can now upgrage it for $129 for the English version as well. Though the sale wasn't going on then.

Just wants to state that not Anthony was the one who doesn't sent the list, he had forwarded my mail to someone other. SHARKEY

A Little perspective......... I recently bought a new computer: 1Ghz PIII 128 meg Ram 20 gig HD 32 meg. video card It cost me a little over $300.00. A machine like this went for $2000.00 about a year ago. You want it NOW..... It's gonna cost ya. That goes for anything in commerce. ScottA

My two penn'th, Maybe one day Curious Labs will realise that if they got the price right the majority of people wouldn't bother with ripped off versions, but would be happy to buy a legit version. To my mind anything more than 100 (UK pounds) is too much. By the way, my version is legit, but I think it's still too expensive at present. If the price were right, everybody in the world would use Poser, rather than just the relatively few afficionados that we have in this community. Microsoft has drastically reduced prices for some software (eg Visual Basic and MS Project, which in my opinion are close to worthless products) and have cornered the market when there is much better stuff available. Curious Labs could do the same. What probably stops them is that there actually isn't any better stuff that is affordable to mere mortals. Yet! Maz

Actually if the program were more cheaper or more expensive it still wouldn't stop a huge portion of "real" 3D people from bashing it it at every opportunity and they still would never use it.

"A Little perspective......... I recently bought a new computer: 1Ghz PIII 128 meg Ram 20 gig HD 32 meg. video card It cost me a little over $300.00. A machine like this went for $2000.00 about a year ago. You want it NOW..... It's gonna cost ya. That goes for anything in commerce." I've heard this argument many times. Yes, I am completely familiar with the concept of depreciation. That isn't what my complaint is about. The problem I am having is that an owner of a stolen or illegaly obtained copy of poser is basically being offered a buyout- they pay the upgrade price for something they never paid for in the first place. No-one has ever been offered the upgrade price to those who do not have a previous version- I didn't get the upgrade price for poser 4, because I did not own poser 3. Now the thief whpo did not pay for poser 3 or any other gets that upgrade price. THAT is why I am upset.

I've had legitimate licenses for Poser versions 2, 3 and 4 as well as ProPack so I too have spent a few dollars on the program. Now possible thieves can get it for less than I paid. Will this make my copy run any poorer? No. If CL did not offer this amnesty would that put more money back in my pocket? No. Will I upgrade to the next version? Probably. Will I lose any sleep over this? Not a chance. The value of most things you buy goes down as soon as you've paid for it. As soon as you drive that brand new car off the lot it is used. Look at the price drops on computers and memory. The list goes on ad nauseum. Life is too short to get excited about trivial things like this. Get over it people. Maybe CL needs the cash influx, maybe it doesn't. But more cash certainly won't hurt and don't we all want Poser to continue to develop thus giving us new and exciting possibilities? Piracy is a fact of life. Maybe this amnesty will eliminate some small part of it or maybe it won't. But right or wrong, at least CL is trying to do something about it other than just whining away in a corner or firing lawsuits at anything that moves. There used to be a phrase some of you may have heard. It begins something like "It is better to forgive than..." Vengeful thoughts make victims of us all. Don't be a victim. - Jack Valero

Here is a thought... I have a car dealership with cars for sale, one night after the dealership closes, someone comes along and steals one of my cars... of course, like CL, I'd be pissed... but am I going to call the police department and tell the officers that as long as they can get the person who stole one of my cars that as long as they pay HALF of my asking price they can keep it... Uh... I think not... In my opinion, CL's is trying to negotiate with criminals... This kind of mentality harms, not just their business but the business of ANY other software company out there. They are providing a way out for criminals with no punishment for their actions. I'm sorry, I can understand wanting to limit the amount of product getting snuck out of the back door... I think there has to be other ways than letting the crooks get away with the goods for half price, while those of us honest people pay full price... this is just not right, nor is it fair to those that have been honest from day one. Jack

Jack, I can sympathize to a certain degree with the feelings you and others share. But I don't believe this amnesty rewards thieves. If I have a pirated version of Poser 4 that has run just fine for me why on earth would I buy a copy even at a discount? After all, I've already decided it is okay to be a thief. A paper manual isn't worth that much to me and if I recall correctly the CD has a pdf manual anyhow. But if I am toying with the idea of using a pirated version this amnesty might keep me honest. If I've been using one of the magazine freebies because I can't afford to upgrade, well now maybe I can. Ultimately this rewards honesty, not dishonesty. As for your car analogy, it is not quite the same thing. If all your expenses as a dealer were development costs and the actual physical car cost you relatively little you might well be tempted to offer it half price in lieu of getting nothing at all. Face it. Software by its very nature is easily and cheaply reproducible so is not the same as other real world products. If I give you my car I lose this item. That's a built in rule of life. But I can give you a copy of my Poser and not lose a damn thing in physical terms. The software industry really needs a new sales model because the old rules no longer apply and they are not enforceable anyway. Maybe things like CL's amnesty program are the first tentative steps towards discovering that new approach. As for me I am not going to be bitter about this. I don't have the time or inclination. Old age just claimed a cat that has been one of the joys of my life for over 18 years. That is a thing worthy of my emotion. This amnesty...? Phttt! - Another Jack

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Dan Farr

I think it might be useful to look at the pool of people who could take advantage of the amnesty. There are basically 2 groups, both of which have been mentioned in this thread, but which have not really been compared or contrasted. The first group is the hardcore warezers. I agree with those who have written that the amnesty program is just going to make them laugh. The hardcore warezer is not going to want to let CL know of their existence, let alone pay CL money. The silver lining to people who paid retail (myself included) is that the amnesty program cannot be said to benefit the hardcore warezer, who will continue stealing, as he or she always has. The second group is the grey market, the person with the suspect serial number, the person who "borrows" a legit copy to "demo," the magazine copy people, etc. I don't claim to know the details of the status of magazine copy folk, and thus won't direct my comments toward this segment, except to note that some of the people bugged about the amnesty don't seem as worked up about them. As for the others, did they illegally obtain Poser? In most, or at least many cases, yes. But to the extent that this is true, what they may represent is the customer base of the worst kind of warezer, who not only steals Poser, but resells it. If CL can bring this group into their legit pool, they not only make money from people other than me (which to some degree benefits me and you), but choosing amnesty may make it more difficult for this bunch to go back to the warezers for P5 (and I share the suspicion of some here that the amnesty would not be going on if P5 were not on CL's horizon). It might even be that this decreases warez, which again indirectly benefits me and you. As for the suggestion by JDK (and I know he probably knows more Poser history than I) that there must be other ways of dealing with piracy, I that CL proposed intrusive copy protection as way to try to reduce the warez problem. Despite the reality that it will never be eliminated, I do not think anyone should be surprised that a software company will want to try to do SOMETHING to reduce it. CL wanted intrusive copy protection, but listened to and largely accommodated the concerns of this community. I personally am disappointed by the announcement of an amnesty, because (as many here, including JDK, have noted) it does benefit people who have been in a grey area at best. Nevertheless, as some of the posts here have mentioned (including the analogy to tax amnesties), I understand why CL made this decision, and that it does at least potentially indirectly benefit the legit buyers here. Granted, I suppose CL could choose not to pass on the benefit to us in the form of a marginally lower price for P5. In fact, depending on the magnitude of the upgrade, and lack of info as to how many people choose amnesty, it may be difficult or impossible to determine whether CL does pass on the benefit. But I've seen most of the names in this thread at this site for a long time, some before it was R'osity. Having seen the type of relationship the folks at CL have tried to have with the community, I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt that CL hopes the amnesty will benefit us as well as the company. However, while we are making analogies, CL may want to consider that the recent history of the US in granting immigration amnesties is that illegal immigration increases. The program may impose long-term costs on CL that they have not fully considered.

Steve.... man, what are you doing old boy? Good lord above...

Heh heh. Cas and I just cross posted damn near the same thing. We do have a habit of doing that on somethings, don't we Cas? ;]<<< Yea, that's okay. And it looks like neither of us is going to win any popularity contests in here this week. But, you know something? That's okay, too. ;) Take care and Godspeed. casamerica

I believe what has so many (me too) distraught at the moment, is the sneaking suspicion that is coming to many right now, that Meta_Mannix who has been badly cursing and verbally abusing the community members and any who have criticized this "amnesty" program, is actually Steve Cooper, whom we all hold in the highest esteem. I hope and pray it is not, for it would be a heartbreaking tradgedy to be so badly spoken to by someone we all admire and have put on a pedestal. I would encourage Steve to swiftly speak to dispell this rumour if it is just a rumour.

Cas, Ironbear: I think if you go through all the posts (as I just did again), you'll find that the great majority of the posts agree with your essential point. I don't think anyone here likes a program that suggests that crime pays. I even think it's possible that it's shortsighted as a business strategy, and not just because it's going to upset some of us who paid retail. But is it always wrong to offer an amnesty? Since it seems to be a night for analogies, let me offer others. The simplest is to note that the police often pay informants or cut deals with arrestees to become informants. On a larger scale, since 9-11, I've heard and read a lot to the effect that the CIA was greatly hampered in gathering intelligence on foreign terror organizations because the sort of people that would have to be recruited (paid, that is) would not pass the screening procedure for human rights violations put in place about 6 years ago. I admit that I hesitated to use this particular analogy, as many people may have legit beefs with past CIA involvement in domestic politics. However, I think that this example, or similar ones that would probably be as provocative, demonstrate that sometimes the cost of dealing with shady characters may be outweighed by the benefits. Whether the practice of paying informants should reduce one's respect for the payor is obviously a topic that could be debated at length (though I'm guessing you would be more philosophically in tune with Kant than with Mill). In any event, I don't see your reasoned (though irreverent) opinions on the amnesty making you pariahs. But there's always hope for the future ;)

Just wanted to add that my opinion would change IF the rumor mentioned above is true. However, I try not to let myself be affected by rumors, and currently have no evidence that the rumor is true. If others believe they have such evidence, it should be shared with the community.

In case you're wondering, Cas and Ironbear didn't start this, I did. ;] I would have probably been fine with the explanations provided if their man hadn't copped such an attitude with me, and told me that it was my responsibility to help pay for the losses incurred by piracy, AFTER offering any fool with an unregistered copy "amnesty". I didn't buy it, I don't buy it, I sure as hell won't buy it anymore! I think CL needs to go back to "customer Relations 101".

Micheleh: It's obvious from the first post that you started the thread, but I was responding specifically to other comments. I also read the thread to which you linked. I didn't see any comment by Steve Cooper stating that it was your responsibility to help pay for piracy. On the other hand, it's clear from the thread that he did retract at least one comment from the thread. And I suppose it's possible he wrote this in an IM or a chat room. So I wasn't responding to what you wrote, although it currently appears that you wrote "you and your program and your company can go to hell" to Anthony Hernandez before Cooper's first post (though, again, perhaps there are retracted posts involved). Hernandez apparently did not respond in kind, so perhaps he can be spared Customer Relations 101;) From what remains of the original thread, it looks like Cooper was making the point that the consumer ultimately pays for piracy, just as every consumer pays for shoplifting. He also made the argument that the amnesty will benefit us. As I wrote earlier, I am skeptical, as there is a counter-argument that amnesties can encourage further lawbreaking. However, as I also wrote earlier, whether an amnesty is always wrong from a moral or ethical standpoint is debatable as a matter of competing schools of philosophy.

I am not going to post on this issue except to say one thing here. Whether or not this was badly implemented by targeting warez users at first. I am not debating on. What I think really needs to be addressed here is attitudes by CL employees, while dealing with the public on this issue. The sarcasity level is a bit too much for my taste. A employee of any company while dealing with the public should be calm collected and willing to dispel the problems without getting nasty and sarcastic. This has not been the case and I think that is something that needs to be addressed. As for the meta_mannix.. well i hope that the man sees what he has done and steps forward admit who he is and explains why he did it before it turns into wild rumors of a man we all have respected for the last few years turned monster. Stormrage End rant

And I have knowledge of someone ready to create a poser like product with the same functionality, better rendering engine, and better control, and will offer with proof of purchase of poser any version a 25 dollar discount from it's 100 dollar tag. Giving a whole new competor to CL

I am in general agreement with Stormrage, but would briefly add the following: CL employees should not be nasty or sarcastic with their customers. Likewise, customers should not be nasty or abusive to CL employees who, at least in the past, have tried to be responsive to the community. (BTW, lest I be accused of not practicing what I preach, I've marked a few of my comments with a ;) ... I mean this to show joking, not sarcasm.) meta_mannix ought to reveal his or her identity, not only to be a responsible person, but also because, if I've read this thread correctly, he or she will be unmasked eventually anyway, and will look even worse if that occurs before some sort of responsibility. Finally, if there's price-and-quality competition for CL, let's have it! I've always thought it strange that there wasn't a competitor in the low-price bracket...just thought maybe the niche was too small. If there's a product out there that good for that cheap, that's good news for all of us (except maybe CL, and even then...)

Hi, Ok, so you all think you "lost" some cash, well I bought the English Version, (in Germany) as soon as I was able to order it again from CL, (I was living in a cheap hotel, so I didn't have an address I could use for mail order :) I paid 660.00 DEM or 301.336 USD (according to xe.net) and still don't think I was getting "ripped off" I'd been using a pirate version for a good 6 months at that point, (because you simply couldn't buy it anymore) it took me a week to find a working version, after scouring every computer shop I knew in Munich without success. I personally have no problem with paying for "good" software, stuff I'm going to use a lot, hell I've spent lots of money (1K pounds) for an OS that's sitting on a '486 back in the UK, simply because it was cool! You can now get that, (or most of it) for free... (get.qnx.com) Am I bitchin' am I bitter? No. Why not? Because it means the OS gains wider adoption, and I'd rather see a good product expand and thrive than be backed into the corner of a smaller and more rigidly defined niche. CL should be happy that thier product is one that people want to pirate, because it means it's being used, by a growing user base, which is what you need in any healthy system, be it organic or in this case, inorganic :) The fact that CL may garner some extra cash to pad out the bottom line should be applauded by us, as it means that hopefully the company is healthy enough to last a while longer, and will continue to produce great products at what are "knock down prices" take a look at any other package that does what poser does, and you'll be amazed at what you're getting for the price. Admittedly they could have handled it better, as it makes the legitimate users feel slightly cheated, but a great many of those users will lack the patience or the knowledge to get hold of a pirate version anyway, so it's not like you could've got a cheap one too, "if only you'd known..." This is the sort of thing that Apple excells at, they anounce a new product out of the blue and loads of people are pissed off because they bought the old one yesterday... As for "outing" people, well, I guess some people do some very strange things for pleasure these days :) later jb

Isn't this all really just a farce? Can it really be called an 'upgrade'.. when the company themselves lists a serial number that you can use to obtain this so-called 'upgrade'? Assuming that a thief would suddenly wish to pay for the software they've been enjoying free of charge, why would they admit their crime, when they can just use the serial number provided by CL? All this really is, is a half-price sale.

I look at it this way. I bought my copy of Poser 4 when it first came out. In fact, I PRE-Ordered it. I paid full price because I didn't have a legitimate copy of poser 3 to upgrade from. How do I feel about the current offer? Shrug. No skin off my nose here. It has no effect on me whatsoever. It doesn't cause me to lose any money. It doesn't offend me. I really don't care what they're doing one way or the other because I don't take it personally. They made a business decision and some people are seeing that decision as a personal attack. I don't see it that way. And I won't see it that way, I have better things to do with my time than allow myself to get all insulted by someone's business decisions. Kate (who thinks this whole controversy is a tempest in a teapot)

Was going to step pretty much out of this thread completely, but since you addressed me specifically [and with a fairly courteous query, I may add], I'll drop back in to address it. Hopefully in the same tone and vein in which it was asked. "But is it always wrong to offer an amnesty? " No, it is not always wrong. I've seen governments extend amnesty to criminals with good results [historically], and sometimes spectacularly bad results. I've seen amnesty extended to soldiers whose only "crime" was just that they were fighting on the opposite or "wrong" side of a revolution or military action. [Wrong in the historical context that the "right" side is determined by the winner - they write the history books. Not justifying that, just observing it] I've seen blanket amnesties extended to the perpetrators of what are generally considered "victimless" crimes - prostitution, whathave you. Some of those are sucessful, some of those aren't. The concept of extending an amnesty legetimating members ofwhat to me amounts to an illicit industry isn't really analaguous to any of the the above situations, at least from my perception. This is not a victimless crime. Warez does a great deal of damage to small store front vendors including Renderosity, Commune, Renderotica, BBAy and Daz merchant. It does a significant amount of damage to small companies like Daz and CuriousLabs. I pretty well stated my views on how the bulk of the hardcore pirate community will look at that, so I won't rehash them here. Several other people have stated similar observations. All I can state is that in my opinion and experience, wether an amnesty is right or wrong is only determined on a purely individual, case by case basis, not on a blanket basis. My attitudes are shaped by my past, my life experience, and my backgrounds in various things. All of those combine to give me the general attitude that you don't reward wrongdoing. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, and I apologise, but that's the way I see it. In my experiences, doing so always gives a seal of approval to what your rewarding, wether it's an intentional seal of approval or not. Giving something a seal of approval says to other people that it's ok if they do it, and hey... down the line we'll get a seal of approval also. shrug I am not holier than though on this. It would be stupid and hypocritcal for me to be so. I've stated in other places that I'm a recovering addict, and that I was a street kid and a thug when I was a lot younger. You can read into that if you wish that I've probably done a number of things in the past that weren't precisely lawabiding, and I won't naysay you if you do. It took me a long, long time, and a lot of pain to get to a point where I was someone capable of having integrity, or worth being respected by other people. What I will say is that I strongly believe in personal rights coupled with personal responsibility. If I choose to do something that is legally considered wrong, I decide at the time if I'm willing to accept the consequences. If the answer is "no", I choose otherwise. If I choose to do it, I make the choice to accept what goes with the territory. I can look over that and it's rambling in some points. I guess what I was trying to get at in that last section is an explanation of why my stances on some things seem pretty hard. It's because it is black and white to me. My experiences have shaped me to look at it that way, and my continued recovery [as an addict] depends on my continuing to choose along a lot of black and white paths - drink/ don't drink, do or don't harm orther/choose to make ammends if I do. I don't have the luxury of living in grey. That black and white view shapes how I look at a companies responsibilities to it's customers. I treat my clients right to the best of my current ability, and they come back to do business with me again. If I choose to not do so, I choose to lose the confidence of my clients. If I inadverdantly do something that dmages a client, I do my best to make it right. Or I deal with the fallout from not dong so. As a result, I tend to expect other businesses to do likewise, or get called on it when they don't. I hope somewheres in all of that I managed to answer the question. ;]

Very well said Iron Bear and I completely agree! Jack