The recent thread about "Poser" people being compositors rather than artists was an interesting discussion. Coincidentally I was web surfing and came across another web site for 3D Art. Most of the modelling and renders were done in Lightwave, Maya, and some SGI specific programs. There was some amazing stuff there.

One of the images was done by Catharina Przezak. She used POSER to do one of her typically amazing portraits. I was stunned by the condescending and sarcastic comments that she received. She was told that she might as well use photoshop and that her image was more appropriate to a 2d gallery. One comment said that it looked like she had talent but implied that she was wasting her time with POSER. It was also mentioned that the true 3d artist is someone who models and renders everything from scratch. (I wonder why they don't write their own software too...)

As I looked through the site's gallery I couldn't help but notice that there were a fair share of images that, although they were done in these "high end" programs, didn't match some of the stuff I've seen here. They could have bought POSER and saved themselves $2000.00. People here regularly take POSER to levels that would surely stun most of the elitists.

I hope that an improved POSER 5 can help some of the more talented people around here really show off their abilites.

As i have said many times, it's a tool. If you study and learn the tool you can get way more out of it than any other tool. It is the commitment one puts to it, and just figures ways around things poser cannot do.

It was really irritating to see Catharina's work trashed not because of it quality but solely because of the "tool".

Can you say "software snobs"? I thoughtcha could. I can't tell you the number of times I've had people look at my scenic design presentations and swear that they were looking at Lightwave or some other such nonsense, and not the $200 I paid for Bryce. Like Lalverson says, it's all in the knowing, not the tools.

Take these folks with a large grain of salt, and an even bigger sense of humour. The following is a great example of how to deal with bozos like that. http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?itemid=14434477

Ohhh! TOUCHE!

Hmmm, "Render-Daddy." i like that. :^) Namja, i hear you, and agree violently. What can you do with software snobs? Ask them if they made their own computer chips--No, of course they didn't. People who are used to painters have taken me to task because i didn't waste my time making models... but hey, i don't mix my own oil paints, either, but nobody rips on me for that. >:^ i have asked them if they thought that some very fine crafts were not "art" because, say, the quilter didn't make the cloth or the sewing machine or the thread; or the wood-worker didn't grow the tree. If they want to think of 3D as a fine craft, then let them... and then ask them if any one of the incredible artists from the Arts & Crafts Movement isn't an artist! It seems to persuade them. --Nan, Very Cranky about 3D as "non-art", and Poser as cheating!

No f'ing way! At least HALF of those who sniff about their high-end 3-D modelling software as being 'superior', prolly swiped a copy off of Morpheus in the first place! Unless you actually work for a high-end gfx shop, and they have a site license, you're prolly ripping it off, unless you're going to cough up as proof a scanned image of a reciept showing you bought it to the tune of thousands upon thousands of dollars! I find it funnier than Hell, personally... I followed the link of this "nogbogfrog" guy, and on his personal page, he's rhapsodizing about "KDE" this and "Linux" that... bragging on the OSS programmers he's just met. Now - compare this to the fact that Linux (as of right now) is still EXTREMELY limited in 3D modelling software for under, oh, the price of a brand-new Jeep Wrangler or so... You'd think a guy like that would actually learn something from it all... Momcat - when you see crap like that, consider the source, then ask him where he got the license for his $18,000 Maya package on Linux (no 3DS Max in *ix yet)... ;) /P PS, on the 3D artwork front: I'm about to get signed on as part of the school's site license for Inventor... woo-hoo! (still stuck w/ Windows to use it ,tho'... )

Attached Link: http://www.enklave.com

Look at photography. Herb Ritts photographs Claudia Schiffer. He photographs a pose/smile/whatever she offers him. He chooses the photo that comes close to what he has in mind. It is a matter of a lot of things. I think its the vision of the final result and it is the matter of composition. When I use poser I do not want to recreate a human model. That has been done a whole lot better by others (like daz3d) but I want to use the existing models to fulfill my aim. Yes, I would be proud of a movie that was made entirely by me but I can hardly remember a director who built the chair his actor sits upon. "Art" is a much flexible term. To some it is modelling. To others it is posing. To me it is compositing. And I thing Poser is one heck of a tool that allowes 3d-nerds like me to reach aims I would not even thought about a decade earlier! Sascha

Well well if creating textures or making the simplest of props to enhance a concept/picture is not art then why do we get the art snobs and you can put all the know alls that have been mentioned here, raving about the turner priz. Example of what the trendy artist has given the criticts to rave about A room that as you enter the lights turn on and off. A garden shed with a bike a spade and other bits & bobs that you would find therein. Oh what about the artist who exibited the contents of babies nappies, or diepers whichever side of the pond you dwell. If anything those are the people who are making art a joke, I use poser for my Art what i have spent on poser and bryce I have saved a fortune on model fees, although one of my models became my wife. I can get freebees now!! poser is a tool to develop artistic ideas. Many of the great artists would have taken the computer and the software to enhance thier portfoilio. As it hase been said if the Roland synth & cubase had been around in Mozarts time he would have used them. Barry Manilow uses a computer so I have read to arrange his songs , does it matter if he uses a $10000 program or a progam that came free with a monthly publication, it is the end result that counts. Sorry folks I just went on one there i think i will go and lie down in in a darkened room wearing my nice new white jacket with trendy wraparound sleeves with straps my wife has just bought me. gibber gibber Keep well folks

How about going one step further? There are many "traditional" artists who think that you cannot create good art on a computer. It's not art unless you paint it, or draw it, or mold it, or model it, or sketch it. I have one friend in particular who feels that digital art is not a valid art medium, because "the computer does all the work" (heh) - and everything done on a computer looks cold and rigid and unartistic. She now lives in another state, but I'd love to point her to some of the art here. Painter, in particular, is very capable of creating that "hand painted" look quite well - but some of the art in the Poser gallery is good enough to rival that created by some of the best Renaissance artists! Denise

Heh. any man who thinks that creativity isn't art because it's not painting or sculpting is a closed-minded fool. I hear what yer saying with the whole 'software snobs' thing. I guess if you don't spend all of your time creating everything from the ground up every single time you load your program, it's not being creative...kind of like, if you were a sculptor, mixing your own plaster, or culturing your own marble, or smelting your own broze, etc etc etc. I think people get pissed because they're a dumbass and your not...

No worries,
Kaze

Well, everyone knows that true artists do things like cut cows into cross sections and then mount them in lucite (the recent exposition in the Brooklyn Art gallery).

What a waste of perfectly good beef ....

ya think they mighta had a bbq afta the exhibit? wonder if they had a exhibit for beer? JV

ooh ooh like beer cans mounted in an ice chest, that would be good... heh

There are many "traditional" artists who think that you cannot create good art on a computer. It's not art unless you paint it, or draw it, or mold it, or model it, or sketch it. Yeah, we have a bunch of those folks with galleries around town. (Most of them are scrambling trying to schedule a few tutorials with me at $75 bucks a pop.) Hush, though...you didn't hear it from me. Keep Good, POp...Pop...Poppi

i,m a traditional artist. i moved from oil to acrylics then to airbrush now to puter, they are all tools to acheive your goal nothing more. i see good and bad 3d art i aslo see good and bad traditional art. just becuase some one cant draw or paint dos,nt mean they,re not artistic the turner prize proved that. cheers stu

Stu art....and, from what i know in my "real" life...you are not alone with wanting to keep up with the trends. Look at Thomas Kinkaide...so many here in FL want to be able to create and "project" their newly learned cg art into a larger, picture...almost doing a paint by numbers if you will. IE...paint by number oils, murals, etc.

I have a friend who thinks computer graphics aren't real art, and I've also gotten comments from other friends that the computer is the artist and not me. They think that all you do is open Poser press a button and poof! Instant art, no thought or creativity involved. I'd love to sit them down in front of Poser or Vue 4 and ask them to make me a picture some time. Ha would they have a wake up call! It's like saying that owning Microsoft Word turns you into Steven King or something--hey maybe "Clippy" the Paper Clip really wrote Pet Cemetary too! No one seems to question that photography is an "art" and yet the photographer doesn't build the people or even most of the stuff in a photograph. I'm sure that there people out there who own the big names in graphics software and are turning out utter crap, having an expensive tool doesn't give you artistic vision anymore than owning paints, canvas, pastels and chaulks don't make you Leonardo DaVinci. I also think people would be utterly amazed about how much art they look at is generated on computers and looks like it was done with traditional media. Oh well, we have to educate the poor slobs. Render on!

It's ludicrous to suggest that the medium makes the art: the person does. Like saying collage isn't "art" unless all the images are yours--what a load of crap. Still, before we wear ourselves out with knee-jerk, denfensive, self-congratulation, it's worth remembering that 99.999999% of all human attempts to make art end in utter crap, regardless of the medium.

"owning Microsoft Word turns you into Steven King" Yet another reason to hate Bill Gates.

These fools that discard the computer as an artist's tool...what a bunch of hogwash. I suppose an author that writes a novel isn't a novelist either since the computer does it all for 'em. namja, I think I saw that site you referenced. What a bunch of snobs. As I recall a lot of their "art" consisted of a bunch of spheres put together to resemble human forms. Hmmmmm. That's what the big bucks will get ya.

Art is very confusing word... Traditional art; don't you have to be dead before your work become art? Do we really need art appreciation classes? If so, how do you learn to appreciate art? Is commercial art an oxymoron? If your work is appreciated by "legitimate artists", does that make you an artist? What if your work is not appreciated by artists, yet, thousands of other "common folks" raved about your work, does that make your work "thrash". If you win the "people's choice award" but not the "oscar" does it mean you are not an artist. And the thread goes on..... A hundred years from now.... will computer art become "traditional art"? Happy Rendering!!!

I agree with JVRenderer. I don't know for sure, but I imagine that early photographers weren't taken as serious artists. I know that most "real" musicians hate anything that was played by a machine (even though there is still a lot of work that might be done to make it sound right)

Guess what....Yup...My works will not be immortalized in some future art place. Unless it is like i really grow and get a link on beer wench mary's site. nawwww...not good enough by a long shot. but, some folks think enough of my talent to pay me for stuff. that's a good thing. or, is it my talent, or, my personality that they like...that's a question thing...(i hate those.) i think there are other "hacks", here. they get their yayas in the gallery with all the dropping chins, and such. local traditional artists...feeling the south florida money pinch....want some clues on how to turn their medium into a "hack" medium. most of them are 3/4 of the way there, even if they cannot use a computer, yet. how many of you, out there....for REAL...in the whole of your happy heart....think that you are a genius? in the art world? using poser, bryce, max...maya...whatever. how many of you think you will one day be going down in the history as a master of your craft...whatevever your "program"? me...i'm a hack. but, i love my stupid junk that i make. i am so happy that i can sell enough to get by. and, when 2d hacks ask me for tutorials on being a 3d hack...i feel darned proud of myself. what do you all aspire to, in "real" life? artwise, that is. Pop...Pop...Poppi

The word "ART" is very subjective. I suppose what really makes something art is if someone likes it, and that may only be the artist in some cases. If one derives a sence of satisfaction in making a picture, that in and of itself is enough to justify it's existance. What people need to do is have respect for others work even if it's not their cup of tea. I don't know how anyone can denegrate Catharina Przezak, what she does often can't be diferentiated from a photo of a real human being; not to mention the fact is that it takes real talent to create the beautiful texture maps she does. Perhaps its like my momma always said if someone is overly critical perhaps they are indeed only jealous. . .

I'm one of those who finds art in the composition, so I marvel at the things you all are able to do here. And just hope someday to be able to half as well. But....... If you go to any of the 3d art chats, you soon see what a bad name Poser has with most 3ders. We don't see it here, because we're all sorta circlin' in the same pond.(Indiana talk) But outside this group, I was surprised how unrespected Poser and Poser users were...go figure.

Attached Link: http://www.mecom4d.com

- namja1955 thanks , I know what for website you mean here. That is true they will not accept any other renders that I do because they are made in Poser4 and poser is for kids they say and true artist use min 3dStudio Max, then I say f......you you can't imagine how angry I was, second was that I am a woman and woman need in the kitchen and not made graphics. - Then com one of the writer from AV. Producer and write some article about in a magazine , you can read on my website. I never saw any better realistic renders that made using Poser, I talk here about human renders, I have all must all software's but was not so happy with my effect that I do in Poser4, after I made good textures I don't need to make any prost production that the GREAT artist do every time, a special in Final Fantasy, I saw some material and the humans was looking like the Poser3 figures, without post productions was the film nothing, trust me, we make better art using our software that the biggest of the biggest with own MAX. -For better result that ever we need to wait for Poser5 and then show all the art, I can well imagine the faces of the Max world. - Remember one thing , if somebody wrote a good comments then he like this if he wrote bad comments then he is just jalous. If somebody REALLY don't like your art then write nothing and go away to next page. do I have right or not, think self. Sorry for my English but I better speak with my art that write. Kiss Cath

momcat - has he bought you Maya yet? :) That was great. jon

I'm a "real" artist, meaning that I paint, sculpt, draw, AND POSE! Poser is one of the greatest tools of all time. Someone asked if this was really art in another forum. Well, this from a "real artist": YES. Period. Yes. I still draw and sculpt, and still love 3D rendering in Poser and Bryce. Anyone who says it is not art, or looks down upon it because it is Poser and not Character Studio are either morons or not informed. Poser can acheive photo-realism to Van Gogh esque portraits via the WONDERFUL Sketch designer (one of the best features). Anyway, it takes much skill to acheive a certain plateau, shared by folks like Syyd Raven, and others. I still have tons to learn, and much room to make progress in . . . but I'm having fun, praise God, because I love art. Ben http://www.MessianicArt.com/

Ben - couldn't agree with you more. I've also worked with oils, clay, and chalks. The moment I got my first computer and found out that you could create art on it, I knew I had found the medium to last me for the rest of my life. I've been pushing pixels around since 1992, and using both Painter and Poser since (ack!) version 1. I use a whole lot of other graphics software, including Max and Character Studio, but I keep coming back to Poser, the program of my addiction ;-). Why? Because with it I can capture the beauty of the soul in a simple look, or a simple pose, and I enjoy every minute of it. Yay Poser!

I'm sure that the original website in question in the first thread is www.raph.com. I discovered it quite a while ago and too was appauled over some of the comments on Przezak's work. It was that moment that drove me to make myself and the software I have (Poser & Bryce) perform as highly as possible. The above mentioned site is a collection of truly amazing 3D renders, I still visit it often to check out what high-end software and their masters can do. I love the site very much yet, even here at Renderosity, I think we all have seen what a few bad apples can do with their ill thought out opinions. Those (bad) comments Przezak recieved are simply made out of a misplaced sense of the price of her software, and not any talent shown in the work. Art is what you make of it, and if someone tells you are doing it wrong...you might be doing something right. Furthermore, I have always known that it's not what tool you use, but rather what you can do with that tool. Poser (and Bryce) will most likely always be underdogs just because many high-end people can't see a small price equalling great art. But, whether it's Poser 4 or 5 being used, it will be up to you artists to prove them wrong. Agent Smith

Ol Cat, and everyone. I usually don't make any comments on the tools and art-or-not debates - it's a silly discussion, anyone getting their inner visions out on the screen, canvas or whatever are artists, or craftspeople, or whatever you want, no matter what tool they use. Who cares, anyway? But if you, Cat, of all people, who really push the Poser envelope to the max (pun intended ;-) ), get negative critique just because of your tools, it's too bloody much! Challenge whatever jackass that makes such comments to match your imagery in his or her chosen package! By the time they manage that, if ever, we'll be at Poser v. 15, anyway ;-) and then we'll (you will, I ain't no artist) REALLY show'em the art. As namja1955 says in the opening shot of this thread : "They could have bought POSER and saved themselves $2000.00." But they didn't, did they. They bought that $$$ app, or d/l'ed a warez copy, and valiantly struggled up the mountaineous learning curve. And then they see an image like Cat's...! As John Fowles wrote in his wonderful "Ivory Tower" (pun DEFINITELY intended), those who do all the Right Things hate feeling like a mountain climber who made it to the mountain top using the best maps, the perfect technique, and all the right pro gear - only to be greeted by some rascal who just got there in housecoat and morning slippers! Poser is the housecoat-and-morning-slippers app of the 3D world. Let'em cry "cheat" and "children's toys" all they will - while they're ranting and forever chasing the Right 3D Stuff, we're climbing the mountains.

Taking the argument a little further, I often get the impression that 'art' requires a single render and that once it starts to move, it ceases to be 'art' and enters another realm. What that is I've no idea, but animation is often deprived of the 'art' tag. Is there a divide between artists and animators?

Animators are definately artists. If when they make appeals or stirs up your senses, it is art. Have you seen a movie that makes you cry, laugh, or leaves you in awe. I most definately think that is art. BTW Catarina is da BOMB!! JV

This reminds me of reminds of the debate that happend over at the lightwave forum where a moderator was fired for deleting images from the lightwave gallery that used poser meshes.

as a character animator i am really only intersted in doing REALISTIC humanoid Characters.
take a good look around the web and try to find
alot of animations with human characters that are up to the standards of mike 2 or vicky2

I own Cinema 4DXL7 with propac animation import
and Lightwave7
I love these programs for space battles,
explosions, flying particles and volumetric lights
and glowing materials

Next time you meet one of these Snobs ask one these highend "experts"
to create you a model like vicky2 or mike2
and rig it for animating
and create 5 or 6 different outfits and hairstyles

all you will hear are EXCUSES !! as to why its not "practical" or it could be done in a few WEEKS!!
maybe.

This debate reminds me of when I took Computer Art & Animation in 1990. Our tools were "perhaps more primitive" than now, and certainly more expensive. Our school had several classes including a Photography group. Those poor photography students were very worried about our ability to created wonderful images, and our ability to totally reconstruct "reality" so that no one would even know a picture is "fake." The classic example of that is a computer commercial where this guy has a woman over to his apartment. This guy is in the picture with just about every famous and show business person you can name, including Marilyn Monroe I believe (he was not even alive when Marilyn was around). That debate, and others similar are still raging. I really see no point in the debate(s) myself. You will always find a circle where even the most fantastic computer generated art will not be accepted by those who "still do it the old-fashioned way." If you're in an "arena" where computer generated art is acceptable, then you'll find people battling over different software packages. As for me, I just keep doing what I want, and trying to actually "get good at it one day." Ron

Agent Smith , you tell exact what I mean, you must look on the website and see some art that is just nothing, but some people said that Poser4 is not 3D only 2D, but I tell you nothing is 3D,do you was thinking about that images that are rendered I mean here still images are not more 3D only 2D all, a 3d is only if you can see the scene from 3 dimension on one time and renders have only 2 dimension of are they from Max or from Poser they are 2D, if they are 2d then if you use PhotoShop or other aps then it don't change anything, if you post a pz3 scene then you can tell it is 3D, much people don't know about. How all say art is what you do and not what you use, and don't worry about other websites that don't have money to pay the space to put the work of the artist and ask for help, is that 3D Elite? that are sux nothing more. THANKS AGAIN AND HAVE ALL GREAT WEEKEND!!! TIME BACK TO POSER:-) LOL

Van Gogh did not sell anything when he was alive. Cubism and impressionm were regarded as "bad" art by contemporary classic artist. Mozart died as a pauper. Hey, if that trend continues we are going to be famous after we die ;-D

Attached Link: http://www.mecom4d.com

gstorme you have right we are the new NET GENERATION artists, every time have own artist and style and maybe you have right I hope well!for my kids hehehe LOL Cath. p.s The art made Van Gogh crazy, take care then !!! LOL

AGENT SMITH - "I'm sure that the original website in question in the first thread is www.raph.com." You win the trivia prize...

Attached Link: http://www.raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/ag-ap270.html

One think what I forgot to say, do you know why my image of CATHY was posted on www.raph.com ? cose this image was in Computer Art Magazine England other Poser4 renders have not chance. He ask me later for new images and If I wrote what I used he never answer again, is that normal? I think not. Do I need to lie? I think not, there are other 3000 websites that like to post Poser4 art then I am not worry about one anymore my dear. BTW this image was made 3-4 years ago before Victoria and Michael was here with Poser4 standart woman. namja1955 thanks for the theme for this discusion this was well or still is a problem. Kiss Cath Go here self and read the comments if you wish!!!! here is the URL to the image on raph.com

Whenever I see those purists I just shake my head. They think they are all big and bad but guess what, if you work for ILM you aren't going to be doing all the pieces, if you do the final fantasy stuff you aren't going to do it all. There are texture artists there are motion artists and there are sculptors and a bunch of other people that never do it all. Sure there is some cross training so people better understand but a good chunk of the models are scanned anyway. This is from one of the head guys at ILM. I mean there is some things that are art and here is some that isn't but software snobbery is just garbage to me.

There was a time when photography was not considered an art because all the photographer did was compose the picture. Some people can only feel good about what they do when they can slam other people. Do what you like and let it stand on it's own.

Attached Link: http://www.mecom4d.com

The whole problem here is not about what is art or not, the problem is that why we are not accepted if we do work using Poser, If I tell everybody every day That I rendered all in Max, Lightwave or Maya then all will say WOW , but if I do the same using Poser then all say Poser? what is that..then they think direct about poser3 or something. What make the difference if you do your dinner on a electric kitchen or on a fire, the result is the same a dinner. We can talk about to the end of the life and never finish. I got offer from StarWars for the new episode to work with, they like my characters and textures, but after I send all information and they saw that I used Poser4 to create the characters they wrote me letter about that they found somebody, is that normal.? what poser4 have to do with my textures work, I can do for all software and for all models that I wish, this is just discrimination in the 3D world nothing more.

Hey Ghostofmacbeth,
as you might already have guessed most of the Software snobs you find in web forums dont have actuall jobs in the film/effects industry

They are wannabees who dont have a clue about
what s involved in film effects production or previsualization

Gee, I've received two virtual kisses from Catharina... :) It was really unfair for the criticism. It was almost like an oil painter telling someone who works with pencil that what they do really isn't art. I am one of those people who got started using POSER as a hobby. It's fun and I've learned a lot, but I certainly don't have any illusion about the artistic quality of what I do. That is why I really admire the people here who have genuine skill and artistic ability. I'm always amazed at the quality of the images that I see here. A philosophy that I try to live by is that if someone that I respect or admire says something critical then I might have reason to be offended. If some idiot or moron that I don't respect offers the same criticism, who cares..., after all they're a moron.

you are more that welcome! You can get next 2 if you wish, I have much here :-X :-X see no problem, but if I put a "kiss" then I mean too. Kiss Cath Lol ;0)

Did anyone notice the folks who made comments regarding Catharina's picture lacked an image in the gallery (at least the couple I looked back for)? It would be nice to have been able to see just how good their own "art" is. Even I probably could create good cubes and spheres in any 3d package (and maybe even insult someone using a less expensive package) ;)

Wolf 359 .. Believe me I know but a lot of other people don't either. :)