This render features Allie by Eirian, and Erika's dress, by Rubio. The dress came with the breast morphs. Thanks Eirian and Rubio for your fine work.

is this a quick and shameless plug for those products or what? i like the dress and shoes too, but i'm not crazy about this render. the figure is slapped onto the backdrop, seems about 15 feet tall in context, and that pose..........is she a giant 1950's sci-fi robot? seems like we should hear gears clicking when her arms and neck move. the background really does not work with the figure in any way that i can identify. she is not convincingly in the scene, she looks very obviously alpha-channeled on top of a sickenly blurred and skewed backdrop photograph. the blurriness is not convincing of bokah either, it looks more like garden-variety lack-of-focus or too much upscaling in photoshop. next, the shadows of the render don't match the background in strength, length or direction. the depth of field is off too; her feet are in sharp focus, but the ground just beneath them is out of focus and smeared. It also appears to be a dichondra of heretofore unparalleled shortness. my opinion as a 3d artist and photographer is that if you're trying to mix the two, you have to try harder than this and pay attention to the smallest of details. Otherwise you get a piece like this, which is an obvious and unconvincing collision of two unlike media. mixing photo and render is not an easy thing to do ever, and probably not worth doing at all if you don't intend to do it carefully. ...sQuiddY...

I doubt that is a plug...especially since the Erika Dress is free...it is just a honest and well deserved "thank you". (add mine too!) Rubio gives us wonderful free items and I think crisjon was speaking for many of us when he said thank you. He used Eirian's model and maybe he was thanking him/her? for making a good child model. Why you would choose to pick apart an image posted in this thread and for this purpose is beyond me! It is for this very reason I hesitate to post any images here. Diane

I think before you start pulling Ron's work apart squiddy, you should try posting some of your own, spend some time using poser & you'll find out what Ron has done is not exactly easy, put your money where your mouth is & please show us what you can do. Rob

I am getting sick and tired of seeing artists' work getting flamed on a friggin daily basis! If you don't have anything constructive to say about an image/person/situation, don't bloody waste your time commenting...period! This started as an appreciation thread for a wonderful dress given as a freebie to the graphics community, lets keep it that way. :( Crisjon1950, thank you for sharing this image with us...I wasn't even aware this item was up at the site :)

Allie was made by Eirian. I bought Alexa and Allie as a set from the Renderosity Marketplace. I admire Eirian's work. Erika's dress, from Rubio, is free. I'm not even sure when I downloaded it. I have a habit of saving stuff, sticking it on a CD and using it months later "when I feel brave." Heck I bought Alexa and Allie months ago. I used the Nerd Backdrop tool. Unfortunately, there seem to be some limitations to this tool. This isn't the first time I've heard some complaints about the poor quality of some of the backdrop images. That's one reason I shy away from the tool lately. Hey, I put together a render at the last minute before I dragged my butt to bed (in the wee morning hours as usual.) Squiddy, you have a valid point somewhere in your message. You might want to look up the definition of "Constructive Criticism". Oh, you didn't know about all the time it took to get Allie's "look" just right, including adding the breast morphs, working on the hair, the eyebrow textures, and trying out many different poses, and tinkering with this pose to make it work with the dress. Enough said on that one. To the rest of my friends: Thanks and You're Welcome.

Not only do Rubio & Eirian deserve our thanks but so does Crisjohn, he's done a heck of a lot for this community with his tutorials. Ron as a side note, have you thought about putting all your tutorials together & turning them into a book? you'd probably need a few more but it's something to think about for the future. Rob

Thanks, Rob, for the compliment. I had briefly thought about putting my tutorials together for a book or something. However, Poser 5 is now on the way, and that pretty much makes my stuff obsolete. I had briefly worked toward making a tutorial for a certain popular magazine. However, I got terribly confused with the instructions about preparing the images "for print," and apparently my intended project died, perhaps along with a few others.

I don't think you should write off your tutorials just yet, there's going to be a lot of people getting poser4 in a few months as a freebie from magazines so they'll be needed more than ever, & don't forget Poser5 will need tutorials as well.

Attached Link: http://muse.widener.edu/~egr0001/REDoctoral/Criticism.html

*** Squiddy, you have a valid point somewhere in your message. You might want to look up the definition of "Constructive Criticism" *** i assert that you and others simply do not recognize true constructive criticism. for criticism to be usefully constructive, it should be frank and honest, not watered down to keep from hurting someone's feelings. "constructive" does **not** imply a pat on the back. my definition of constructive criticism is pointing out all the perceived flaws in a work, so that the artist becomes aware of them and may improve his/her piece and skills. this is precisely the feedback i have given you, crisjon. i see a lot of room for improvement in this render, and i took the time to point out very specifically what i felt did not work. i feel i have made several valid points in my critique. an example of non-constructive criticism would be if i just left a rude comment like **"this sucks"**, without further explanation. the problem is that people here at renderosity ask for "constructive criticism", yet when they actually get **real** criticism, they neither recognize nor make good use of it. often, they get defensive, which is a pretty lame and childish way to respond to criticism if you ask me. If you put up work to be criticized, you need to be resilient enough to take the criticism you get and work with it to improve your art. most of the people here asking for critique seem to want or expect only praise. sure, i could have replied with **"Nice hair, love the pose, keep up the great work crisjon1950!!"**. but for what purpose? a reply like that might help your ego and make you feel good for a few minutes, but that's not what art critiques are for. i like what Lyrra said the other day about too many posts in the gallery: *"A better way to ensure less posting is to actually _use_ the rating system in a meaningful fashion. If I actually _rated_ the images that I viewed according to my reaction - well I would have made a LOT of enemies. (and possibly have driven some lackluster artists to actually work for a change)"* i say amen to that sister! no artist community should have to tolerate artists filling the galleries with "one day wonders" and "works in progress" that never get improved upon after their first viewing. crisjon, i would love to see you to take this piece, and work with it over the next month or so to turn it into a real work of art. it has potential, but you need to invest time in it. considering improving this piece rather than just moving on and stamping out 10 more just like it... ...sQuiddY...

You sound like Marcabros! All flame and never anything worth reading or lookin at... sigh. "i say amen to that sister! no artist community should have to tolerate artists filling the galleries with "one day wonders" and "works in progress" " No artist in the gallery should have to tolerate letters like yours filling this place!

funny I thought the gallery was all about being filled by us, perhaps I've been mistaken all this time, but then there's no "one day wonders" from squiddy to look at, how about you post something show us all how much better at the game you are than the rest of us mere mortals oh dispenser of all artistic knowledge. consider this as constructive criticism of your first visible & verbal visit to the poser forum. Rob

funny I thought the gallery was all about being filled by us, perhaps I've been mistaken all this time, but then there's no "one day wonders" from squiddy to look at, how about you post something show us all how much better at the game you are than the rest of us mere mortals oh dispenser of all artistic knowledge. c1rcle, art critiques are not the place to start pissing contests. Anyone whose only response to criticism is attacking the critic like a kindergartener with "yeah, yours sucks worse" needs to grow up and realize what purpose criticism is meant to serve. my gallery being is empty is a reflection of my only being subscribed to renderosity and using poser for a month and a half now. I have no intention of rushing a piece to print prematurely just to have something people can pick it apart in "retaliation". If you pulled up my gallery with that intention, I have no respect for you as a peer. I don't need to prove myself to offer my opinion on someone's art. Have you ever criticized a movie you didn't like? Did you then make your own superior feature-length film to show you could do better? if you did, congrats. if not, you're a hypocrite by definition. ...sQuiddY...

ok so you've only been using poser for a little while, that's fair enough, I did go to your gallery with the intention of studying your work not picking it apart, I'm intrigued to see what you can come up with, I don't want to start a pissing contest, but when your first post in the forum is to criticise someone else you can't expect people not to take offence at it even if it was constructive. Rob

I'm not sure how it came about, but people seem unusally "touchy" here about real honest criticism. If you want to be successful as an artist, you have to listen to the critics with an open mind, and filter what advice you find useful. artists who huff and puff and take offense at every little criticism are going to have slow progress in improving their art. in the art world, everyone's opinion is useful, and no one's is significantly more credible than another's because this is such a subjective realm. c1rcle, if you agree or disagree with my comments about this artwork, i would like it very much if you would argue the points of my criticism. what i object to is when i give criticism and then instead of adding their own helpful comments or contesting my points, the other members just start attacking me personally. if this were to happen in an in-person critique, i think i would walk out. ...sQuiddY...

squiddy--I think it was the tone of your opening two sentences that set people on the defensive. The snap about the shameless plug. They may not have even read on after that point. I did, and I agree with the technical points of the critique, for the most part.

I'm not a fan of soft, gentle [worthless] criticism either. Students have left crying from critiques in my film class, and the professor told one guy flat out that he chose the wrong major. It may seem unduly harsh, but he probably saved that student from a failed career choice and a waste of his last 2 years in college. The film was truly, abyssmally amateurish for a 3rd year film student, and I'm glad the prof had the guts to say so.

-Adam

I wouldn't waste my time flaming any of the gallery images, but there's no point in commenting at all if the only "politically correct" comment is "beautiful image, love your work". Take this dress, for instance. It's wayyyyy better than I could do, but I heard that the chest morphs don't work. I can't test it because I don't want to use a pre-teen girl model, especially in the current climate where we have perverts kidnapping and murdering young girls all the time.

OK Ron admits the background isn't perfect & I also agree with both of you that it's blurred & out of focus, but there's nothing that can be done about that particular background that's just the way it is. There are other photo's available that would have been a better choice than that one but searching through several Gigs of archives is not something to do just before bedtime If you read Ron's comment that it was just a quick "sketch" you'll see that he wasn't trying to make the next Mona Lisa, he was using a picture to thank you to the creators of the items he used as they don't exactly speak much English. I'm sure that if Ron so chooses he will redo this picture & spend a lot longer getting it just right before putting it in his gallery. Rob

there's no point in commenting at all if the only "politically correct" comment is "beautiful image, love your work".

If you make a comment like that because you're holding back any real criticism for fear of putting ripples in the pond, then yes, I agree that it's a waste of words. Insincere praise is abundant on this site, and it undermines the ratings system as Lyrra noted in the copy of her quote a few posts above.

If, on the other hand, you are impressed by the work and really see no room for improvement, then I think praise is appropriate and appreciated by the artists.

-Adam

I am afraid I have to agree with Squiddy in his perception of critique, if not with the tone of his critique.

I want to be a better artist, and I expect a community of artists to offer me real critique on my work. Sure, half my gallery is full of empty pinups done to practice postwork and lighting, but those are the images that get the most attention. My SERIOUS work rarely gets any views, much less constructive critique. The pieces in my gallery that I feel truly represent me as an artist and as a human being happen to be the very same pieces that no one wants to look at or discuss.

Now why is that?

Because everyone is so afraid of stepping on each other's toes, we have been reduced to a community of mutual ego stroking. It's so much easier to say "great lighting!" than it is to say "great lighting, but your composition is distracting."

I deeply appreciate all the comments I get on my work, regardless of the content, but at the same time I can't help but wish that more people would really look at my pieces and tell me what I am messing up (beyond the occasional cross-eyed Vicky or missed joint fix error.)

I admit I am guilty of empty critiques as well, because it doesn't seem acceptable around here to state your true opinion of a piece. Anyone who does so is branded "mean" or a "troll." Or, people go and study their galleries, looking for ways to rip it apart--not in an effort to help, but as revenge.

The point of being part of an artist community is to provide mutual support for the improvement of our work. Without honest criticism, none of us can exceed our current artistic and technical limitations. One might as well as for feedback from mom and dad, who of course will love everything you do.]

Just my .02.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=226281&Start=1&Artist=Entropic&ByArtist=Yes

"Hey, I put together a render at the last minute before I dragged my butt to bed (in the wee morning hours as usual.)" "If you read Ron's comment that it was just a quick "sketch" you'll see that he wasn't trying to make the next Mona Lisa, he was using a picture to thank you to the creators of the items he used as they don't exactly speak much English." Ok. I have no intention of fanning the flames here, but I think it's relevant to say that I think these two quote sum up the issue nicely. The piece was meant as a thank you, fair enough... but if you truly want to thank someone you don't "put together a quick render." Frankly, I find that people who would devote so little time to making a piece look good, then call it a thank you, obviously aren't really feeling much gratitude (No offense to you personally, ron). I've seen several "tribute" pieces that the person spent a grand total of 2 hours on, then got tired and wandered off. There was no real reason to post this image at that exact moment. The two you wanted to thank weren't going anywhere, and your thanks could have waited for two or three days while you worked on it, to improve the value of what you wanted say. Beyond that, I see too many people just render and be done with things. It's a shame to see these plastic people wander about the galleries - not because _I_ don't like them, but because an artist truly owes it to themself to take a little time and effort to enhance a piece in post-production. So the backdrop was bad, nothing you could do about that. However, the eyes are crossed ( which should have been fixed in posing ), the hair needs extensive postwork, and the skin needs a texture, even if it just meant adding noise to a flesh tone map. The elbows have unusually sharp angles, and there's a crease in the forehead that looks very bad. The expression could use some work, as well, but that's a matter of taste more than anything. The point is, all of these things could have been fixed with some small amount of postwork. I personally feel that anyone who doesn't take the time and effort to make a passing attempt at finishing an image is almost certainly needing criticism and not praise. So, take the time to do it right, and you'll feel much better when you get passing praise. Paul P.S.: Rob, if you want to weigh _my_ opinion against my work, you're more than welcome to. While I recognize I have flaws (and in fact, my best friends point those out with regularity), I can, at the very least, say that I devote a great deal of time and energy to my work. Feel free to critique the attached link by way of reference.

I don't usually get involved in discussions about 'art', but I have
to throw in my tuppence worth here. I tend to agree with Squiddy's
comments in general, although I think he may have missed the point
of Ron's render. Sure, there are things to fix in it. Van Gogh
would have told you the same thing about some of his paintings, I
reckon. But I don't think that's the point. I didn't hear Ron say
he was out to create a masterpiece. He rendered a dress he likes
and that's that. Now, if Ron is smart (which I think he is), he'll
consider the criticism and take it into account next time. That's
what criticism is for....to make you think twice before you make
the same mistake again. So the next render will be better. Aimless
praise is a waste of time for everyone, but comments should
probably be kept for the galleries where people put up their work
to have it criticised. (I'm using 'criticise' in it's original
meaning here 'to pass an opinion on'). Ron didn't do this render to
get a crit on it....just to say 'thanks'. Now, I don't have a
gallery. I never render in poser, just make models. But that
doesn't stop me passing an opinion, and I don't think Squiddy has
to 'prove' anything either before he can open his mouth. But I'm a
photographer. My work goes into magazines, and when people see it,
they say all sorts of things without knowing what happened on the
shoot. I've done shoots I never want to see again, maybe because
the model broke her leg and we had to get one at the last minute
that I didn't like, or because it rained and we had to shoot in
some place that sucked. But I have to turn in a job, so there's not
much I can do about it. Anyway, to this extent, I also agree with
Entropic. It's maybe better to take a day or two more and really
work on a pic before posting it, since you know the whole community
is going to look at it. But hey....sometimes you just can't be
arsed doing it, you know? These things happen. To my mind, the
bottom line here is 1) Keep the comments for the galleries where
people ask for them 2) Accept criticism and use it to improve your
work 3) Don't make banal comments just to be liked. 4) Think before
you post! mac >who will one day do a render and it'll suck
big-time!

Well-spoke, Mac. If I may add one thing, however: Any time you place an image in a forum thread, you are inviting feedback, whether that is your intention or not. By placing in the gallery you are putting the image up only to the review of those who view the gallery. By placing it within a forum thread, you are, on the other hand, placing it within view of thousands of people who lurk, post, and try to be helpful. The intention of these forums is to provide help, so if you post here, be prepared to receive that help whether you like it or not. ;) Paul

Ok, I'll be stupid and stick my oar in. I do believe in constructive criticism and -- for the record-- everything Squiddy mentioned on his huge list of lousy results was correct. I don't think this kind of criticism works at all. Why? Because noone listens to it, it's too harsh without any redeeming qualities and nobody other than a stone would sit under those blows to one's self-esteem. Here's what I would say about Ron's work-- The hair needs some work, that's the biggest prob, and probably also the lighting which is washing out a fairly good texture. Very good job of getting a problematic but very cute dress to work. Morphs can be tough. And, here's an idea-- for the future, cause I don't expect Ron to redo a quick sketch, I wouldn't--look into alpha channels for applying a background. I finally figured out how to use them from a crystal clear tutorial on Taura Noxx's site and it was miraculous. Suddenly the blurry warped backgrounds went away-- for good. If you want to know any more about it, IM me, Ron and I'll try to explain it clearly and look up Taura's link. All you need is a paint prog with layers. Oh and by the way, you aren't the only one who renders stiff versions of that blunt cut. I'm scared of that hair myself because it seems to need so much post. I may be kidding myself, but this criticism might actually be listened to-- I seem to have good luck when I try this approach in the galleries, nobody's called me names yet and several people have thanked me. I pick one or two crucial things that can be changed and focus on them and anything else that you really like about the picture. Treat the person as a peer, not a moron who couldn't see crap if he stepped in it. Not that you personally did that, Squiddly, but the artist reading your critigue could all too easily read that attitude into it. I think the point is: Do you want to come off as a Know it all who can judge Art? Or do you want to actually help somebody? Only my opinion, and I'm someone who's done both of the above. Emily

'I pick one or two crucial things that can be changed and focus on them and anything else that you really like about the picture' Very good point there, queri. I used to live with a photographer (she discovered Kate Moss), and when she shot with ANY model, even if she didn't like her, she would find one thing she did like and comment on it. Like "Oh, you have great hair" Or eyes, or whatever. It's a good technique to get someone's confidence so you can talk them around to doing what you think they should be doing. I know galleries aren't therapy groups, but the principle's the same. If you go stomping in with size 10 boots, people will ignore the sense in it and take it as a personal affront. It doesn't hurt to find a good aspect of a pic first, then comment on the things you don't like. I can see this thread's going to go on for a while. LOL mac

having more understanding now about crisjon1950's intention for this render, i would like to apologize for the rather smuggish comment or two at the beginning of my original post. i figured crisjon1950 was starting a new thread to present us a masterpiece that it was a piece ready for criticism. but... when the page loaded it seemed to me more like he/she was focusing on trying to advertise the products rather than produce quality art. so I was dissappointed a bit, and this shows in my tone. i completely missed that he was just doing a "quick sketch" expressing appreciation for the freebies. honestly though, when i did first look at this girl, i thought she was in the exact pose of a 1980's breakdancer or street performer doing a robot impression. either that, or a doll jointed only at the shoulders. I didn't intend for these comments to sound mean, just pointing out my first impression. ...sQuiddY...

Wow, there has certainly been much contributed to this discussion. I do appreciate all the support and Constructive Criticism. Let me define Constructive Criticism as I see it, and as it is defined in the dictionary (paraphrased by me.) "You have a nice render here, however, here are some items you might consider improviing." By using those words, you let the artist know that there are some things to fix, and that you are trying to be helpful and respectful. It is really a very simple concept, and I just wish more people understood and practiced Constructive Criticism. I do not intend to transform this work. The Blunt Cut hair should stand on its own. If it does not, then the product is not good enough. The texture, dress and character are just fine. Most likely my choice of lighting was not good enough. However, in my own defense, I used the lighting that was allegedly designed for this task, using Nerd's backdrop tool. I merely wanted to highlight the work of some great artists. I wasn't out to create a masterpiece, and don't apologize for that. I had used a pose from a set that I bought, and had tweaked it a bit to look better. It was very hard to find a pose from that set that I was entirely happy with, so I went with what looked the best. I am torn right now between different priorities or wishes. One is to do some of my own art, with my own characters. That also involves featuring my Marlin Fingle characters in a "comic strip" on my own web site. The other desire is to somehow give back to the community by helping others to see the fine work created by artists, merchants, and providers of Free Stuff. I do apologize that my less than perfect render cast any negative light on any of the artists involved. My first inclination was to feature Allie in a render with no background or set. Then I remembered that many people suggest that is a "lazy way out." So I chose the backdrop. Here is my original render. It looks better I hope, but maybe some problems yet remain? I'm not "paying tribute" here. I am just saying I like these products, and others might be interested in them. I'm under no obligation to "do a masterpiece," and I don't dishonor anyone by doing what I do. I have two web sites going, featuring Tutorials, Freebies, and am attempting to let others know of the wonderful Poser resources out there. If my work is substandard, and I am indeed insulting those I attempt to support, then perhaps I should indeed retire, and leave this work to the experts.

Well, right away your choice of lighting is better than the one designed for the Backdrop. There's much more depth, Ally's texture looks better and it shows off the dress better too. Thank you for doing that much-- I probably wouldn't have. Once I'm done with a picture I'm done, I don't want to mess with it again, just learn and move on. I suppose there are experts around here, but they don't post very often, if I thought you had to be an expert before doing anything, I'd never get out of bed. Squiddy was trying to say he was sorry and that's a whole lot more than most "real" flamers will ever do, so I don't think you're a flamer, Squiddy. Now, we're supposed to say, thats ok, and things go back to normal-- right, Ron? It's not a contest, and if it was, I didn't even get a booby prize so there.:) Emily

Thanks, Emily, for the words of support. I don't know how to say this. I have to find a different way than I have for the past year and a half. During that time I found something I felt was important, and "life-giving." I rediscovered my creative energy and abilities, and yes, I made them a priority over other things that perhaps didn't work as well. Unfortunately, I've neglected too many other aspects of my life. I won't get into detail on that subject here. I accept responsibility for the problem and the solution. I've also managed to get myself into one flame war or another, to the point where I've done my own reputation great harm and driven some folks away. Again I accept responsibility and aplogize. I'm not sure of the "ultimate solution" right now. I do know I need to spend less time at this computer, maybe for a long time. I need to accept responsibility and see if there is a way I can make things better in my own personal life. Then I'll get back to the computer. I want to thank everyone for the support you have given. I couldn't have done anything without you. My "vacation" is based on my own personal needs, rather than anything anyone has said here. Take care. Ron

It never ceases to amaze me the comments that come up in these forums. What started out as a simple thank you to two great artists has become discussion first on the merits of a piece, then on the way a critque was handled. First, if the artist wants comments, he/she asks for them in a gallery posting. Comments can be turned off there. The definition of creative criticism is in the hands of the person who posts them. I've had comments on my work that have p*ssed me off royally, that didn't reflect art or content. However, every comment affected me and my work, if only to make me try harder to offend the idiot I disagree with. I appreciate all comments, even the stupid, bigoted, rude ones I get from people who have no work posted and can't spell any better than I can. Commentary helps us grow in our art. Second, a simple thank you to two artist posted as a thread in a forum, and a work showing the models and textures, isn't the arena for critical comments. The artist didn't ask for them here. If he'd wanted comments, he'd have posted it in the gallery and asked for them. Putting the artist in the position where he has to defend a simple example of a couple of good items is rude. Further, criticism should encourage the artist whenever possible. Tone of a posting has a lot to do with this. If you can't say it nicely, maybe you should get some counseling on how to deal with others. What ever happened to simple courtesy? Finally, about all the posts of peoples work, and the number of items uploaded to the galleries. I buy a lot of stuff here. Renderosity makes money off of me a few times each week. One of the reasons I come back is to see all the posts, and to post my own work - good and bad. Sometimes the things I think are pretty poor, wind up with the most comments, advice, and often are the more popular of my pieces. I like going through all the works posted, and seeing some newbies first try. Or something strange (and pretty poor), from some soul just trying to connect. Each in its own way has some bit of beauty, and I try to find it and say something to the artist. I often point out problems I see too, with suggestions for improvement. Politely. We've got a good thing here on Renderosity, and backbiting and infighting can ruin it. In ending my little essay, I'd like to thank Eirian and Rubio too. And also to chrisjon1950 for the chance to join my thanks to his.

If I ever put something up for free or sale in this community, I surely hope that Ron doesn't download it and show it off. ::gag:: I can live without the resultant uglification of anything which passes under his mouse pointer. I also appreciated Paul's comment about thanks being more than a quick render before dragging a butt into bed. A true offering of thanks should have thoughtfulness and merit or at least an honest attempt in that direction. The fact that Ron took time to add breast morphs to a preteen model... but not soften her hair, focus her eyes, or put her feet flat on the ground also speaks volumes. The dress comes with the morphs to be more useful to a variety of figures, but he could have smoothed the dresstop when dressing a little girl. Carolly

Gosh, Carolly, I guess I need to explain the obvious to you. The preteen morphs came with the dress. They were meant to be used with the dress. Beyond that, I am not going to comment further. You've obviously appointed yourself my personal gadfly, and take great delight in attacking me whenever you get the chance. I wondered why you'd let up for awhile, and it was because you were on vacation I do believe.

Dammit Ron, I read the Great Gadfly and didn't see Carolly anywhere in that book! Good to see back around, Carolly, apparently Ron was just talking about leaving... ;) Paul

little late to this show I'm afraid, but I heard my name be ing taken in vain When making constructive criticism three rules: Say something nice FIRST. Use emotion neutral words Wait to be ASKED Ron was not asking for criticism. This was not an appropriate time/place. Feel free to crtique his gallery all you like, or in posts asking for critiques. Lyrra "If you don't want to know - DON'T ASK" Madril

far too late Lyrra :) there's no real point in bringing this one up again as Ron is not here right now, not sure how long that will last, hopefully not too long. Rob