Is DAZ creating a 3D character animation and rendering tool? In January DAZ started developing it's own 3D character animation and rendering tool. We basically have taken our wish list of things we would like to have had implemented into Poser, and put them into our own application. We expect it to be an amazing application. The early work is great. Our goal is to push our new application into new markets and to grow this community well beyond its current size. Brokered Artists and content creators will benefit from this growth by having more customers to sell to as a result of the additional market that will be created....From Daz3Ds sight.I CAN'T WAIT.Maybe I can use my Poser5 CD as a coaster.

Soon I hope.Poser5 is wearing my LAST NERVE.I am SO PISSED about the Face Room/Mike/Vicky2 crap,among all the other crap.

Jim the concern you aired in a recent thread where certain allogations were aired by another Renderosity member, have me wondering as well. If they are true, then I don't know that CL really has the poser community in their best interests. I hope the allogations are not true, but I fear CL's silence in this matter makes their motives suspect. If it is just greed based then they will absolutly lose my support and judging to the response that the community aired concerning "free stuff" then I think many others would share the same opinion. I hope it is not true and I would like to here from CL regarding this matter. I would hope that others in the community would also like to know the truth here. CL whats up?

I'll still use poser5 even if I decide to buy the Daz version, of course being able to swap stuff between them would be a big bonus. Someone needs to get them sitting round a table or bang their collective heads together.

they probably couldn't agree about who should model the table or how many morphs it should have.

Circle, all it would take is a little pressure from the poser community to have this happen. If they remain seperate, I'm afraid that one of these companies will not survive for very long. It doesn't need to be that way at all. It really doesn't! The poser community loses in this as well and its sad because it really isn't necessary. I'd love to hear both their real concerns because I'll bet with the right attitude and the right arrangement, this could be a win/win situation for everyone involved. Instead of messing around in this type of very shortsighted behavior, they/we should be looking at ways to grow this market beyond belief. The potential here is huge. Too many growth possibilities to even list here! SO DAZ............CL...........Whats the story and can we/I help in any way to sort it out?

The poser community would still carry on either way at least for a while, right now it looks like Daz has the best financial situation of the 2 companies with their new platinum club. Of course if we could get the 2 companies talking again (they probably are talking behind closed doors) Daz brings out their program which is compatible with everything poser, CL makes Poser5 compatible with the new Daz program/content, everything gets sold through the content paradise & Premier Club, everyone ends up a winner. Does that make sense or have I been taking mind altering substances too much recently?

Premier = platinum, I must still be asleep

I agree that the community carries on, not without much friction and growing pains though. I suggest this community deserves much more! We are like children in a divorce here if these allegations are true. What I'm talking about is a needless stalling of the community through all of this. Seperated, these two companies are much weaker. Combined they soar and all of us along with them. They seem to be hung up on a very short sighted issue based in short term greed. I for one would like to hear the real story. I'll bet its an easy fix!

Circle, can you check to see if you can access the marketplace, i just want to know if its a site problem or a Lapis browser problem?

looks like it's playing silly beggars again, MP doesn't exist accoring to my copy of IE6

Wheeeww, at least I know its not explorer. Love the slang. My best freind growing up was fromm Yorkshire. Haven't heard that one in a while "eh"! (Canadian colloquial thrown in for effect). Thanks for checking!

Couldn't CL merge with DAZ? (not my idea)

Would a DAZ/CL merger be a good thing? I've always been of the opinion that competition between companies generates more in the way of innovation. Having to compete against a strong rival forces the companies in question to provide the best they possibly can for their user base. If you merge all the companies that provide similar software you don't get one superprogram. You get Microsoft.

working together rather than merging is the way to go, having the 2 programs competing against & supporting each other, the resulting oneupmanship would keep us in programs & upgrades for years.

where's Yorkshire? I'm a Londoner & never go further North than Watford ;) Merging like Replicant said is not a good idea unless they kept up the level of customer support they both have now, can you imagine poor Tori & Reba having to deal with it all, I'm sure they'd both end up bald within a week ;)

If it came down to choosing between CL and DAZ, I wonder which companiy people would turn to for their main/only software poser application? Based on image perception, what company would they go with? Interesting question. Daz seems to have the advantage in my opinion for many obvious reasons. One is that they have the best and most established content. It would take much effort on CL's part to match this content and their track record in this regard is less than spectacular. The bug parade that currently marches on in the next virtual room doesn't instill a lot of buyer/user confidence. There's a trust issue to consider as well. A person might start off using both apps but when content can only be utilized in one or the other, decisions will, no doubt, be made. The only exception would be those with much money to burn. If I were CL I'd rethink my position in all of this! I'd rethink it real hard. Its not too late but could be soon!

Circle, the merger is highly unlikly but if for some reason it could occur the larger company would compliment each other nicely and thus they'd generate huge wealth in cooperation with this growing poser community. Reba and Tori could have a team of minions underneath them to handle the influx once customer confidence grew stronger. Then they could focus on growing their target audience and creating spinoff markets. That's what would come out of a focused partnership. WIN/WIN for all! As far as competition. The 3rd party suppliers can help keep things in check!

You'd hope so, but I can't see it happening before/if Daz brings out their program. What would be interesting is if Daz suddenly decided in a few months they weren't going to be bringing out their program, then not long after CL announces Poser6 with a "NEW" vastly improved Renderer, money changes hands & Daz carry on Making Poser content instead of competing with CL. Or EGISys buys Daz & has both companies/programs thus cornering the market again, but keeps them as seperate companies still competing (don't laugh it could happen).

If it came down to choosing between CL and DAZ, I wonder which companiy people would turn to for their main/only software poser application? I'll be honest. I'd go with Daz in a heartbeat. Why? Every time I've had a problem with Daz, they've gone out of their way to make it right. When I've had problems with Curious Labs, I've been on my own. Daz has wonderful people who go the extra mile to help. CL has people who tell their customers "you're on your own." Daz provides great products that work out of the box. Curious Labs... well, I think this one goes without saying. With Daz, I trust them enough to buy their program on first release if it looks like something that will help me. I know from previous experience that if it doesn't work, they'll make it right. Judging from that conglomeration of bugs I fight with every day (P4!), CL doesn't have that track record. And there's the matter of honesty. Curious Labs has lied too much; I don't trust them anymore. For example, they've been working exclusively on Poser for three years (so Avatar Lab just popped out of someone's ass one afternoon and they decided to sell it?). Even if they had the best of intentions when they made their statements, there's just been too many promises that went unfulfilled.

I can't see a merger. Like 1% chance. Ask around (grin). DAZ has GREAT customer support, some darn good content (!), and probably some money in the vault. It might be like a business game of chess: CL has just made a bad move...why would DAZ offer a draw? See that Platinum Club? What if their app (called "Figure-Mania") could use all their current content? And what if the purchase of "FM" came with another membership that gave a reduced price for "FM" (proprietary) content? PS: If started in Jan, then I would be real surprised if beta-testing would begin much sooner than 06/2003. (If it's as big as what we are imagining.

Aren't you all sick of having (insert your personal favorite here)...ideas, opinions, buggy software, limited options, unkept promises, orchestrated posts....and on and on shoved down your throat? Why would anyone want DAZ and EGISys/CL to merge? I don't even like considering it on an intellectual basis...scares me s

Well I'm quite happy with Poser 4, and have no intention of upgrading to Poser 5 yet. I may just wait and see what DAZ come up with...they have given me excellent customer service in the past. I would be quiet happy to ditch CL, as they do seem to be content in supplying their customers new products unfit for consumption...twice in a row now. Yes, they have been fast in the patch releases, but it does seem a very unprofessional way to run a business. I'm lucky in that I can make money freelancing, something I would not be able to do if I relied on CL and their new software releases. I'm sure if Maxon, Adobe and even low budget shareware producers can produce stable software from the off then so can CL. Until they can sort out how to produce stable software, then they can never expect to be taken seriously! Lapis; of course CL have not got the Poser community in their best interests...they are a money making business. Like any other business, profit is the bottom line. Yes they need users that are happy with their product if they are going to make money, but don't fool yourself. A community does not benefit them, it only benefits those involved in the (respectful) sale of 3rd party extras and the members themselves. Cheers

Daz and CL both have a lot of time and money invested, their descisions are their own to make. If Daz comes out with a poser type software, good for them!!! competition between companies, keeps those companies on their toes. I wish daz and cl good luck in their ventures and I think you all will find, it's all going to be to your advantage. 2 thumbs up to Dan Farr and Steve cooper, making and keeping some of you happy(note I said SOME) seems to be a virtually impossible task.

I'll probably go ahead & buy the Daz program if it supports current content, if it doesn't or can't then I may have to think long & hard about it.

C1rcle, I'll admit I'm the same way. I'm taking it for granted that it will support current (at least, P4) content.

I hope both companies continue to trade for years to come, I might have to start watching the TV if I didn't have Poser/CL/Daz & all the goodies that go with them

What will people think if DAZ's program comes out with as many bugs as Poser 5? Just curious.

I'm expecting it to have bugs, wouldn't be normal if it didn't have bugs ;)

What allegations? Can you point me to the original post? jon

I agree, it will. People have turned on CL and are now expecting DAZ to come in a save the day, so to speak. Will they turn on DAZ as well if DAZ's program has bugs?

cast your mind back to just a few months ago when Daz announced the changes to their EULA, sent some people into a rabid frenzy, if either company makes even the slightest mistake it's a cue for certain people to start tearing chunks of flesh off them.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I remember that well.

So, Artist3D has been screaming, whining, and bitching all over the boards everyday about P5 not working with Mike and Vicki... and now comes across as a DAZ employee? I hope not! Most of their people have better manners and morals than that! Those of you who hope to see a DAZ application to replace Poser need to remember one thing. DAZ makes and sells content, and they do a darned good job of it. That is a very different procedure from developing an application of any sort, much less one of this scope. I am a developer with 15 years experience and I would not choose DAZ over CL on the strength of their fantastic customer service... not when we are talking about a software product. Sheesh! Sorry, folks, even if they reverse engineer it, they still have never developed an application from scratch, even if they buy most of the technology, they still have never assembled and integrated a working application. They will have to build it themselves, by a different route, even if they see what others have done. We aren't talking about friendly phone service, we are talking about imaginative approaches to the technology. Common sense has to bubble to the surface sometime. Some of you might remember Poser 1. Carolly

...making and keeping some of you happy(note I said SOME) seems to be a virtually impossible task.<<< Not impossible. Just give me the product as advertised, promised and promoted and have it work in a consistent and reliable manner. Live up to the promises made and respect the trust given. Do that and I will be one very happy camper. Otherwise, yes, we will battle on several fronts. Take care and be well. casamerica

What will people think if DAZ's program comes out with as many bugs as Poser 5? Just curious.<<< I am beginning to believe that they could not do that even if they tried. Let's face it, and since we are all adults here I will use advanced, precise medical terminology, Poser 5 is/was a cluster----. Having said that, CL still deserves the chance and our patience to redeem themselves. But that chance and our patience comes with a time limit and the clock is ticking. Take care and be well. casamerica

"Artist3D has been screaming, whining, and bitching all over the boards everyday about P5 not working with Mike and Vicki... and now comes across as a DAZ employee? I hope not! Most of their people have better manners and morals than that!" Personally I think he has a right to air his opinions just as I remember a certain someone had the right to leverage their opinion in this forum about CL honouring an upgrade to P5 from magazine issued software. I remember much ranting and raving in that string about CL. Do you remember that one? It seemed to work out some how for the best. Sometimes it helps to vent your frustration in these forums. Clearly the software isn't working for everyone. I for one understand his frustration all too well! I think Jim is just optimistic that DAZ will answer his software prayers and thats not a bad thing!

Casamerica I agree with you. Look through the posts and you will see this sentiment echoed throughout by many...not a few...and certainly not just Jim. Somehow though, some will still defend at all cost, even during the glorious bug parade.

If DAZ3D is smart they will make sure that this new program can export character animations/w textures to OTHER Programs that have alreadyfigured how to impement open GL,hardware acceration REAL Volumetrics .network rendering etc. ( Vue C4DXL lightwave3D)

We have apparently ruffled someone's feathers. The "Powers That Be" have deemed this thread "Off-Topic." They apparently wish it dead. Puzzling. I have seen far more "off-topic" subjects remain in the Poser Forum. I guess we know at least one entity that we should not anger, irritate, question or pressure. My patience and respect for two particular entities has just fallen a notch or two. And the clock keeps ticking... Take care and be well. casamerica

hauksdottir said: "I am a developer with 15 years experience and I would not choose DAZ over CL on the strength of their fantastic customer service... not when we are talking about a software product. Sheesh!" Maybe the fact that they do have a fantastic customer service history, will ensure that they do not release the product until it is ready. I don't look for 100% reliability in a product (I'm realistic), but good customer service is a must when I purchase anything. I'm sure that DAZ know what they are doing, and hired programmers for the job...somehow I can't imagine a group of "one-time DAZ modellers" suddenly learning C++ programming language LOL! I have also been a customer of software products for many years, so I also know what I want ;o) Cheers

It's at least potentially an anti-CL thread, Caz, and CuriousLabs is a Renderosity partner company now. So.... Naturally a thread about a company making Poser content developing a competeing app is "off-topic" for Poser Forum. ;] At least here.

From some of the discussions in earlier posts I gather that DAZ made the decision to implement their own application at the start of the year or possibly earlier, based on a perception (probably well informed) that the future of Poser in CL's hands was not guaranteed. If CL were to collapse, Poser (already orphaned twice in its development history) may never re-emerge. DAZ's entire business is currently based on the well being of Poser, so 'hedging their bets' in the face of this possibility was a sound, and probably necessary, business decision. As it emerged, the release of Poser 5 probably re-invigorated rather than dampened DAZ's commitment to developing its own solution. They, like myself and others, see the financial future for CL in probably a worst state than it has ever been. On the initial P5 announcement, CL made it clear that they were intending to aim at mid-range of the market. While the initial pricing issue caused a lot of concern for hobbiests (myself included), the speed and scale of the reversal was in business terms, even more of a disaster. Effectively, in a stroke, they had dumped their long standing business plan, as had been apparent for some time in the P4/ProPack/P5(RRP) pricing tiers. What effect this had on their relationship with their investors and to what degree this lead to their subsequent pre-release financial problems can only be guessed. In order to keep investor confidence (hence money) they have to be able to create and stick to a workable business plan. While it may seem admirable that CL responded so quickly in the face of the community's initial reaction to the (RRP) pricing, this also indicates that they may have badly misjudged the market in the first instance. If DAZ understood this weakness in CL's business strategy it would also help to explain why they felt it would be worth developing their own solution. Shortly after the release of P5, and before I became aware of the development of the DAZ program, I began to examine the feasibility of open source application, specifically with the features and functionality that I would have liked to have seen in Poser 5, rather than what we got. My motivation for this project ('FreePose' for want of a better name - and I am open to suggestions) are (like DAZ) to ensure that even if CL and Poser go down the tubes the market will survive. From what I have read, DAZ may be intending a pre-Christmas release of their application, wheras FreePose beta code probably won't be available until early 2003, and even then only core source code that will give developers and contributors something to work with. However a project manifesto and a design and feasibility specification should be available imminently. The key features of the core code are strong and efficient resource management, a well defined plugin interface architecture, the ability to 'host' a wide variety of object types (eg. geometric objects and figures, procedurals etc. in fact just about everything I can think of including 'generic' data defined by third party plugins) and, of course, portability. Everything else (including renderers, file importers and exporters and user interface) will be supported through the plugin interface. The ability for external plugins and applications to access the entire data and functionality of the program will ensure almost limitless extendibility. As a baseline test for this functionality, the program will be required to host 10000 seperately posed 'millenium'-type figures in a scene with numerous, but as yet unspecified, basic model types and texture variations with a minimal memory footprint (100 MB or less seems feasible). There are no actual performance requirements associated with this baseline test, just that the data structures can handle populations of this scale and that the code can access any parameter without falling over. The program will probably be developed under the Mozilla Public License (MPL) or the MPL/GPL/LGPL tri-license as this seems to offer the maximum level of unrestricted use of code for both proprietry and open source development. Under this license it should (and this is my intention) be possible for anyone (including CL and DAZ themselves) to incorporate the FreePose code into their own applications. I'm not intending this in anyway to directly threaten the future of Poser or CL. For myself, and probably DAZ too, the cheapest and least risk free option will still remain with the continued financial health and development of Poser itself by CL. It's just that it seems unwise at the moment to put all my eggs in the Poser basket. I have become aware that this is not the only Open Source project to be looking at this area. Somebody, in an earlier, pre-P5, post in this forum pointed out that Poser had no effective competition in the market. Within a month or so of this observation, the market began to look very crowded indeed. Sadly I feel that 'Poser' has outgrown its original creators. Bill

I've only asked to hear from CL regarding the facts of the matter and if silencing this thread turns out to be their response,(I hope not)then I have my answer.

Lapis I don't believe that CL themselves have any control over the Renderosity forums. There may be some justification for moving the thread away from the Poser forum. On the other hand, some of the moderators have sometimes shown themselves to be a bit over-zealous in their support for what they perceive are CL's best interests. Also bear in mind some rumours that have been floating regarding the possibility of R'osity buying Poser or CL. Bill

"So, Artist3D has been screaming, whining, and bitching all over the boards everyday about P5 not working with Mike and Vicki... and now comes across as a DAZ employee? I hope not! Most of their people have better manners and morals than that!" Heh, apparently you didn't read The Thread That Never Ends over at PoserPros, where Daz bigwigs made a fuss over the restrictions in the P5 EULA, supposedly due to their concern over the rights of content creators, only to admit later that they were only interested in its effect on the upcoming program (which is quite obviously what it was aimed at). Pfft, some manners. They've been doing everything they can to undermine Poser 5. Of course, considering what a piece of shit it's turned out to be, that doesn't take much...(who else has to patch their patches?!?) As far as getting CL and Daz to play nice, dream on. Once they needed each other, but now they are merely competitors. You might as well expect McDonald's and Burger King to join up. Ain't gonna happen, kids. This is just the beginning of what will most likely prove to be a particularly nasty corporate war. And frankly, I don't know who the hell to root for...

Something is very fishy here. Rather unbelievable!

I would think that DAZ would hire the programmers needed to create the software, or buy out a company that may already be doing so - they aren't stupid - although at times they have stuck their foot in their mouth. Consider the EULA hoopla they stirred up - and then look at how quickly they worked to resolve the issues their customers had, it may have seemed like forever to those of us waiting, but they did straighten it out - I don't see CL doing that in regards to their EULA, I don't see them even attempting to consider their customers. No matter how often CL will say "we don't mean that" "we would never do that" the fact remains that their EULA gives them the right to do certain things and make claims that effect not only vendors but those who use the software for certain purposes. Crime scenes could be considered a violation and if you use it for that (or to do any scene showing what might be considered illegal) don't take their "word" that it's ok - get it in writing because that is the only thing that matters (want to lay odds on them granting written permission?) CL and DAZ merging? why would a company who is doing well financially attach itself to one that admits they put out a faulty program because of money issues? One company has a history of saying "tough luck" and the other is known to listen to their customers. I know which one I'd expect to quickly take care of any potential software bugs and I know which one I'd trust to not take my money when they know the software has serious problems...

"Heh, apparently you didn't read The Thread That Never Ends over at PoserPros, where Daz bigwigs made a fuss over the restrictions in the P5 EULA, supposedly due to their concern over the rights of content creators, only to admit later that they were only interested in its effect on the upcoming program (which is quite obviously what it was aimed at)." Not exactly true, they said they have issues with the EULA due to their lawyer's advice, they also announced their new program so that no one would think they were hiding something. I have a problem with the EULA as well due to the effect on content creators and others, and I'm not creating a program. Nor am I jut following others, I understand "legalese" perfectly well and I see the potential damage that EULA can cause if CL ever decided to follow through. Frankly if DAZ had spoken up in regards to their issues with the P5 EULa and hadn't said anything about their own prog. I would have been more leary. Nor would they have refused to install P5 and lose potential revenue if they were simply waiting for their own program to be finished. They currently don't support P5 products because they don't have it installed and won't work around the P5 EULA - that can cause tham more hassle than installing a program while waiting for their own. The only reason to take the potential risk is if installing it is a higher risk.

"...they also announced their new program so that no one would think they were hiding something." Yes, they did, but only after they stirred up a lot of trouble while hiding it. It wasn't until, what, page 18 I think, that they finally came clean. It was highly unethical of them to say ANYTHING about the P5 EULA issue before they made it clear that they were creating a competing app. That information should have been in their very first post and their true motivation made clear from the beginning. Until then, they WERE hiding something, something damned relevent to the topic. That's not to imply that the P5 EULA doesn't have ominous potential that could affect us all. But Daz should have told us the full story from the beginning, and their failure to do so casts them in a very bad light IMO.