I never made a reference to anyone's intelligence and still haven't, you are once again trying to insinuate something for the sake of continuing an arguement(and after we had agreed, hmmmm). I said IN MY OPINION it would have been a stupid DECISION. It's a well known fact that even the smartest people sometimes make stupid decisions, it's part of being human. The issue is that it's unfortunate that the poll was pulled...period... Melissa

Democracy: The doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group.

Um, where does this site fit into a Democracy? And, where does it exclude supposedly "stupid" decisions by the majority?

And, where does it exclude supposedly "stupid" decisions by the majority? sigh it doesn't, no one ever said we should rework the concept of democracy. While I agree it is the best form of government, it isn't perfect, but nothing in this world is. A point I made several posts up was that sometimes it is possible for the people(or the numerical majority or however you want to say it, we should all know how democracy is intended to work without resorting to a debate on semantics at this point) to make misguided decsions and that any history or political expert will tell you that is completely true...does it mean the vote should have been taken away, no. Do me a favor, if you are going to quote me and critique what I say, please make sure you read everything I say so I don't end up repeating myself over and over again for everyone who happens along... Melissa

Well I agree with Cheryle on the fact that Renderosity should just drop all these contests, because they do nothing but hurt the community, no matter what the outcome, because they always end badly.

The admission you made above, Mosca, that was brought up is the reason why I have no sympathy for Legume or for this in general. It just goes to show that, at least in the past (which causes suspicion in the present) that any means were taken in order to bring Legume the fame that he had gotten, some of which was very unethical as well. Now you are calling the kettle black? Please. This whole current campaign is about playing the public to ignore the art and vote for him on principle. Most of what I saw in the forums when it came to voting for Legume was not that he had good art, but that it was a protest against the establishment. "I'm voting for Legume, cause I don't like those pinup people or he's against Rosity's policies." That's not what the AoY should represent IMO. If there was no campaigning, no history here, I'd probably be defending him to the bitter end, but that isn't the case here, so I'm not. There is unfairness on both sides, more than you seem to be willing to recognize. Neither of which is illegal in my opinion, just bad form.

And then people wonder why the AoY/AoM isn't taken seriously, as most contests on here aren't, which makes it easy to control...And we don't even know what else is going on behind the scenes, if anything that might also have contributed...

ShadowWind

"The PTB gave us a poll then took it away when they saw that we(yes we, as a whole community) might make a stupid decision. That is an unfortunate side effect of democracy, sometimes the people do make misguided decisions(any history or political sciences expert will tell you that) but that does not mean that the system as a whole doesn't work or is not fair." In a democracy, the majority makes the decision, not the PTB. Therefore, this is anything but a democracy and more like a dictatorship in which one (or a group of specific) individual(s) makes the decisions - not the majority. If you are claiming that the decision to remove the poll was by some form of democratic action, I would like to see evidence of it. I think you are confusing your terms; hence the necessity to offer a definition and to show you - in as polite a way as possible - that you were mistaken. And, yes, I have read the entire thread. And I do understand your POV, although I am confused by the words you have chosen to use to voice that opinion.

In the time that I posted that, man, responses just backed up, so forgive if it seems a bit lagged.

Renderosity is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship. To be a private web site, conducting business on the net, it has to be. The fact that the PTB give us any input at all, is simply kind of them and in adherance with good business practices. They are not protecting us from making a stupid decision, they are directing their ship in the way they feel it should go...simple as that...

And I do understand your POV, although I am confused by the words you have chosen to use to voice that opinion. I am confused by the words you have chosen as it seems you would like to be able to say that I have said something that I didn't say. How could you possibly think that I thought that the decision was democratic? I didn't like it when the AOM voting procedures were changed, but I knew why it happened and it upset me that my ability to choose in the future would be limited because the majority made a decision that i didn't support. And I really wish that the poll for AOY hadn't been taken away but I have a feeling it was done for simular reasons that the AOM was changed. I have stated time and time again that I did not support thefact that the poll was taken away and have NEVER even suggested that the decision to do so was democratic, that is what you are trying to say that I have said but I would never say it because it isn't true. Why don't we just cut to the real issue, you don't like my opinions because I don't support the artist that you like. That's the real bottom line. Melissa

Sorry, but this just looks like second verse, same as first.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=844709

Lynde: How could you possibly think that I thought that the decision was democratic? CS: If you are claiming that the decision to remove the poll was by some form of democratic action, I would like to see evidence of it. It seems, to me, that you are misunderstanding. IF denotes a potential, not that you "thought that the decision was democratic". You were, afterall, the first to bring "democracy" into the thread (ref post 38). I have no preference for any artist nor the contests/polls/etc on this site. Just trying to enlighten you that your stance is compromised by the way you state it.

Melissa, please sit down, you're embarrassing yourself with your narrowmindedness. Thank you. Jack

If you are claiming that the decision to remove the poll was by some form of democratic action, I would like to see evidence of it. Once again, I have made no such claim. please re-read an excerpt from post 38, if that is what you are referencing as proof that I suggested that you will see you were mistaken. I have said before that I agree that the poll shouldn't have been taken away and to imply that I want some sort of dictatorship is just wrong. I value democracy as much as you think you do but I am just pointing out that this is whole scenario is just a good example of how democracy can sometimes backfire, I'm not suggesting it is reason to replace it with anything else so don't even try to put words in my mouth. I can't believe I've resorted to quoting myself on this issue...sheesh! Melissa

"The admission you made above, Mosca, that was brought up is the reason why I have no sympathy for Legume or for this in general. It just goes to show that, at least in the past (which causes suspicion in the present) that any means were taken in order to bring Legume the fame that he had gotten, some of which was very unethical as well." Really not at all the same situation--the whole Pink Pony/Hot 20 thing was just a big goof. Legume got nothing out of it but attention, at least half of which was extremely, even irrationally negative. And don't forget--when the clone voting was discovered, the admins removed them, and Legume still dominated the Hot 20 for some time. Remember, too, that nobody made me fess up--I did it because I genuinely felt I'd gotten a bit carried away and it seemed right to come clean. AND, I think it's one thing, frankly, for members to goof on the already pretty goofy Hot 20, and entirely another thing for a commercial entity to set up and then rig a contest in which considerable prizes are offered. So fine, question my motivations all you want--the real issue in this case is R'osity's fear and loathing of Legume, and their willingness to break the rules of their own contest to make sure he doesn't win. He's being discriminated against, plain and simple--the Legume Rule has been invoked. If they can do it to him, they can do it to you, too.

lynde, As you have suggested to others many times, please re-read my posts and see where I specifically state that was your opinion/claim. You are reading into my posts what you want to see. Open your mind and read without any preconceived notions.

I read what you posted...The fact that you ask the question "IF" suggests that you think that is what I am suggesting but there is no proof anywhere to support that idea. that's all I'm saying...yes I brought it up, because the whole isssue is that the vote has been taken away...please don't try to put any words in my mouth...I'm sick of it..

"The fact that you ask the question 'IF' suggests that you think that is what I am suggesting but there is no proof anywhere to support that idea." No, the reason people ask questions is IF they want an answer, not suggesting nothing. In the end, you are no better than those you are accusing of not reading your posts or "reading into" posts; because you do the same thing. Is this any clearer: Where in Hades do you think Democracy even fits into R'osity, since you mentioned "That is an unfortunate side effect of democracy, sometimes the people do make misguided decisions(any history or political sciences expert will tell you that) but that does not mean that the system as a whole doesn't work or is not fair." regarding an issue completely related to R'osity, a pure and unadulterated Dictatorship, and not a democratic process?

::shrugs with a snicker:: I politely tried to warn her to sit down... heh... Someone please pass the popcorn. Jack

Actually your example isn't very clear at all but in case my quote was the source of your confusion, perhaps I should rephrase what I said to better explain what I mean. "Unfortunately sometimes it is possible in a democracy for the majority to make a misguided decision, that doesn't mean that democracy doesn't work or is not fair it just means it isn't perfect." I never called for a dictatorship and still can't understand how the subect even came up.. Melissa

no Jack, you don't get it...you're the one who should be embarassed..

It's a business, not a country. The point is, a well run business is responsive to its customers concerns. The point is, R'osity's rigging of its own contest is patently unfair and possibly illegal. The point is, love him or hate him, one of your fellow R'osity members has been discriminated against, and R'osity has made it clear that those artists who veer from the acceptable, merchant-approved formula aren't welcome and should expect to be treated as undesireables by the PTB.

lynde, Nevermind. It seems, in this case at least, it is useless to point out the obvious to the oblivious.

yeah, my point exactly...I'm done..

::smiles and stands up, taps his baseball bat on his heels and steps up to the plate:: Okay doll, you asked for it... Your whole arguement is tied together by your disapproval of Legume, saying that he has in your words: "dedicated himself to trying to destroy the community" and that his artwork isn't up to par with your expectations... Just for the record Missy, Legume is responisble for this Community here on your precious little Renderosity. If not for his hard work and dedication to this Community, to Steve Cooper and Curious Labs, you wouldn't have a Renderosity to come too... so please get your nose out of the air and the stick out of your ass!! For the record, I'd be bitching about this even if Legume wasn't a part of this or had been one of the AOY nominees. Hell, I'd defend it even if your stock artwork had been up for this award. This site is meant to revolve around the Community and last I friggen looked Legume was a member of this Community, just like you. The removal of this contest from the people that make up this site, voids any kind of feeling of Community and only futher installs a sense of Big Business. This Community has the right to vote whomever they feel is worthy of AOM or AOY, be it Legume, Toxicangel or your crap... And as a Community we have a right to know why our vote doesn't count or isn't important. Your whole assertation of this situation is that this AOY contest was indeed voided because of Legume, so if you are arguing on defense of Renderosity's PTB, you are doing a real fine job of painting them out to be just as narrow minded as you and as discriminating. Good work!! Take a bow, sit down now and shut up! ::nods to everyone and goes back to sit down till its his turn up at bat again:: Jack

Again, what rules? What contest? There was a poll.. Did anything say that Rosity had to abide by this poll? Did it say, "Winner of this poll would win these fabulous prizes?" Did it say, "This poll would end on the 12/22?" What did it say? The more I read of these threads, the more this sounds like an opinion poll, more than an election or contest...at least from a legal point of view...

Jack, In all fairness, lynde has a right - just as anyone else does - to take sides or formulate opinions based off the "facts". My major bone of contention is the supposition that R'osity (and/or its decision to remove the poll) was in any way democratic or espouses any ideals of democracy. I was attempting to show lynde that 1) democracy has no foothold here and, 2) she is just as apt to misread what is said as anyone else. In the dialog, IMHO, lynde proved that the accusations made by her and others stick equally to both sides. Therefore, it effectively nullifies some of the tangential "discussions" that have taken place.

No I'm sorry, you are completely mistaken. You are right on one thing, I don't like Legume or his artwork....period.. I have said all along that I never supported the decision to remove the voting. I've said it at least half a dozen times, do I really need to point all of the indiviual posts out to you or are you so narrowminded that you have only read the ones that you thought would offend you the most? For the record, I'd be bitching about this even if Legume wasn't a part of this or had been one of the AOY nominees. Hell, I'd defend it even if your stock artwork had been up for this award. So would I, please pay attention. Be as offensive as you want but it doesnt' change the fact that I don't agree with the fact that the vote was taken away, no matter how much you might want that to be the case. My actual arguement is that I don't agree with it, but I understand why it was done...understanding and agreeing are two different things.. Melissa

Cyber, points taken...I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't support a dictatorship...that's all...either way I have no argument with you anymore...:0) Melissa

::Shouts from his chair, so as he doesn't have to get up:: Your statement of "understanding why it was done" and then choosing that focus to be on Legume rather any other possible situation leads people to believe that you are either "talking out of your ass" or are "clued in". Your "understanding" of it leads people to believe that you support that decission. And if you do support their reason for closing it down, if indeed it may be about Legume, then you are just as wrong as they are. Jack

lynde, There was never an argument to begin with, was there? Just differing POVs and ways of seeing/reading things. Written communication is one of the hardest mediums to get your point across. Sometimes it takes a lot of time and misunderstandings before the true intent is meted out. --- My take on the "AoY poll/contest" is that it was started publicly and should have ended publicly - mistake or not. Removing the poll/contest has obviously caused more harm than good. If the mods/admins vote on which artists are included in the AOY, and Legume was one, then they should be willing to accept the possibility that Legume would have a 1/12 chance of winning; regardless of any publicity/campaigning, etc. The fact that it was publicly available and now it is not, due to a policy change that was never made public, TTBOMK, reeks the same malodorous scent as many decisions this past year. Hopefully, the new year will bring more "enlightenment" to everyone.

Easy, Jack. You and Lynde agree on everything but the curtains.

No, you are once again completely wrong. It is possible to understand someone's reasons for taking a certain action but at the same time disagree with the action they have taken. Yes, I did spend a lot of energy discussing why I don't think Legume deserves AOY but that is still a seperate issue from the fact that I agree that the poll should not have been taken down. Please quit attempting to put words in my mouth, your not doing a very good job of it. Melissa

Here is what I want to see. Instead of just allowing "for" vote, allow "against" vote. You are still allow only one vote, "for" or "against". A lot of time is that there may be a few artists that I think equally talented and worth the award. At time, people may not be able to decide who to vote for, in the end may not vote for neither one, and someone who they thought definatly should not win end up winning. IMO, people should also be allowed to voice their disapproval by putting in minus-votes, or putting in positive-votes for one they think definitely deserving the award. Should start a trial with the hot 20.

...this should be interesting.

"You are still allow only one vote, "for" or "against". A lot of time is that there may be a few artists that I think equally talented and worth the award. At time, people may not be able to decide who to vote for, in the end may not vote for neither one, and someone who they thought definatly should not win end up winning." Too bad they didn't have this option in the last presidential election....

Cyber, I agree with you about how it was handled..:) and you're right, it's hard to communicate this way, I guess I got too caught up in this to understand what you were trying to say earlier...anyway...sorry for the miscommunication..:) Melissa

::looks at Melissa and just shakes his head, leans and whispers to a few people near him:: I like the suggestion that Shadowind came up with, don't bother to have an AOM or AOY, if we (the Community) aren't the ones that get to pick, then why have the damn thing anyhow? Last I remembered, contests were a means in which to generate activity... of course in this case, they certainly got allot of activity from starting it and then ending it... Jack

Going OT a little bit. Agree with Mosca :) I think a lot of people not going to the poll was because in many cases, they were given some OK choices, rarely would one choice would truely stand out to completely align with their POV. However, I find it much easier to notice things that I don't like. Human nature? Or just my personal flaw?

Jack, think of it this way, if a friend of yours found out his wife was cheating on him would you think he had a right to be upset? If you agreed, would you then aree with your friend if he decides to kills his wife and her lover and all of their relatives? Okay, this is an extreme analogy(which doesn't relate to the situation perfectly, I should add) but the point I'm making is that you can understand someone's reasons for doing something but not agree with the action they took.. Melissa

How's this: the neighbor's wife is cheating. You don't like the neighbor, and you may, in fact, like the person she's cheating with a great deal. Yet you still fell strongly that cheating is wrong. It's like something out of Dear Abby.

$5.00US says this thread gets [LOCKED] without a reasonable, rational resolution. :0)

LOL Mosca...

For all the "you people would be making a stupid decision if the poll was allowed to continue", Lynde seems to forget that that's how democracy is sometimes. I don't especially think you got yourself a prize in the White House, but you voted him in and now you're stuck with him, whether you like it or not. Legume was made AOM fair and square. Rsotiy posted the poll. Legume was doing pretty well in the votes, fair and square. And now the poll's gone. That's it. Pure and simple. You do the math and tell me how that jives with, as seen on the bottom of every page of Leg's gallery: "We are proud to host the works of Legume here at Renderosity.com". If the PTB had any sense at all, they'd put the poll back up and let the proverbial chips fall where they may. If Toxic gets it, great. If Legume gets it, great. But at least whoever gets it represents what the community wants, stupid or not.

you people would be making a stupid decision if the poll was allowed to continue Okay, who made that comment? I know I didn't...I said that I thought if Legume were elected AOY that I thought it would be a stupid decision, I never said the poll should be removed out of fear that the community would make that decision...I know exactly how a democracy works and I have spent the past 8 billion posts explaining just that....please read all the posts before making an assumtion of what you think I think. Don't just read the parts of the post that you think will offend you, read it all before attempting to reject my point of view. Melissa

I know I didn't...I said that I thought if Legume were elected AOY that I thought it would be a stupid decision Is there a difference?

To all members, I have been out of town since friday evening, so that is why I am responding late. The AOY was all my fault. Our process for the AOY is for admins and mods to vote on the AOMs of the year. This is how we did it last year and was suppose to do it this year. I told one of our new admin incorrectly and did not realize it until friday - 2 days after the voting had started. This is no other admins fault except for mine. I will make no excuses other than to give an apology.

to atthisstange: yes there is, please refer to post 52..you're not the first to pursue this innane arguement. I am not gonna repeat myself just for someone who refuses to pay attention.

Tammy, I may be mistaken but I think your wrong about last year. Im pretty sure we as members voted last year for AOY. Now if Im right when was the policy changed and why? Don't you think we are intelligent enough to vote for AOM/AOY ? My problem with all of this is I TOOK the time to vote. Now my vote is unworthy? I hope you know that whoever you pick as AOY, it will now be tainted. And that's too bad because every artist that won AOM is deserving of the accolade of AOY. It was tough to pick.

Well, pook, here's what you wrote: It's a well known fact that even the smartest people sometimes make stupid decisions... which states pretty baldly (no matter how "innane" you think it might seem) something right in line with my paraphrase of "you people would be making a stupid decision", which you took issue to. Face it, Melissa: you put your foot in it and now you can't get it out. You don't trust the community to make what you happen to believe would be the "right" decision, no matter what who or that might be. And that, missy, is exactly what you're saying, no matter how much you deny it. Now please try again if you want, but again there's nothing different between what you wrote in 52 and what I repeated back later on. And Tammy? What you were supposed to do now is immaterial. Whoever set it in motion will get his ass in a sling, but now you have no real choice, if you want this thing to have any credibility whatsoever, but to let the open vote continue.

Well said Sean! Jack

No you are still trying to put words in my mouth...period....I have stated numerous times that I didn't support the poll being removed which is what you tried to say in your paraphrase: "you people would be making a stupid decision if the poll was allowed to continue" I only pointed out that I never said any such thing but from the way you worded it, you attributed that logic to me which is wrong. Though you would very much like to be able to say that I'm calling the rest of the community stupid and unable to make decision, that isn't the case. I have made it clear numerous times that what I really believed was that choosing Legume as an AOM was a stupid move and that I also think selecting him as AOY would be equally stupid based on my feelings on the subject, there has still been not reference to anyone's intelligence or ability to make further decisions. You read into my posts what you want to read because you know I don't like the same artist you do.