i am having the toughest time with poser 8. I made my 1st truly custom character (Yay!)....... But I desided to use poser 8, boooo....

My figure seems to be comming apart at it seams ( naming the body pieces internal names in Maya not to have to use the group editor) and I don't know why. So I took another look at the mesh and reimported it. It looks great but I want to use the bone structure that I spent all night setting up.

I thought when you bring a character into the scene when in the setup room ONLY the bones will come in. This is how you do the bone donor method. So I imported my obj... went to the setup room... added my rigged character to the scene to use the bone rig...It's not working. The WHOLE character gets added to the scene, not just the bones.

What am I doing wrong? 

Well, I tested with another donor and no issues (after a p8 crash i must add). Maybe it was the re "initializing" poser that kicked the bug.

I'm sure my breakage is comming from not parenting the bone stucture correctly. I'm working on it though.

I sent PhilC an email asking about my rigging issues (PhilC hope you got it!) and need help as this is my 1st try rigging a custom model.

I have questions like "where exactly to the bones go for the eyes to have them rotate correctly?"
"can i add bones that dont link to body parts 'cause I want to keep it "anatomically correct" in my mind?"
ect..

Any an all help is appreciated
But please dont send links to the 3 part series of PhilC rigging 101.......anything else would be good though!

I've replied to your email but will post here also because I know that a number of folks often ask the same questions.

"Can you mirror bones you've already laid out? (my mesh is symmetrical, can i select something and mirror on X?)"

You can mirror the joints to bones once created but you can not create bones for the right and have Poser create bones for the left. To enable mirroring ensure that your bone names follow the rBodypart, lBodypart nomenclature.

 
"Where do I place my bone for the eye to rotate correctly?"

Place the center of the bone in the center of the eye.
You will also need to delete the joint channels in the eye or else they will have an adverse effect on the head. I tend to also delete the eye related joint channels in the head also for good measure. See the P4 man for an example.

Other options are to un-check the bend option for the eye but this will negate any morphs you may want to add. Or add a dummy bone between the eye and the head.

"Can I add bones that will not correspond to an internal mesh name just to keep the skellital structure more "realistic" in my head?"

Yes, these are generally referred to as "Body Handles" and are covered in my tutorials:-
http://www.philc.net/tutorial9.php (text)
http://www.philc.net/Body_Handles_the_Video.php (video)

"If you could help me out that would be Awsome. Or, if you know of somewhere that already runs through this  info if you could send me a link?"

For links to all my rigging tutorials go to http://www.philc.net and click on the left hand menu Tutorials > Rigging

If you have already grouped the model you may find that the File > Convert hierarchy method quicker. Then just use the set up room to add the body handles.

Hope that helps :)

Regarding "extra" bones that are not tied to a polygon group: very important to remember that any bone can only cause deformation it polys that belong to its own group (same internal name) and its parent group.  If you have a structure of Bone1 with polygon group, Bone2 that is a child of Bone1 and has no polygon group, and Bone3 that is a child of Bone2, this will cause problems - Bone3 will not cause any deformation in Bone1's polys, and even if you have a poly group for Bone3, moving that bone will cause a break in the mesh.  This may be OK for machine moving parts, but not OK for organics or clothing (usually).

Hey, Thank you for the reply, really helpful!!

Next questsion about the bone names....

Do the bones have to be labled with the name in a capital for the symmetry to work...

example: rBonename    vs.   rbonename

I've labled my internal bodyparts as the 2nd example. Will I have issues later?

It is the first "r" or "l" that is important.

All of these names are valid:-

rCollar lCollar
rcollar lcollar
r_Collar l_Collar

You can edit the external name to anything you like.

Also........

Quote - If you have already grouped the model you may find that the File > Convert hierarchy method quicker. Then just use the set up room to add the body handles.

When I do this it asks for a *.phi file... I dont kow what that is or how to make one!

That's there for support for PHIBuilder (google it).  You don't need it if you don't want to use it, you can do all your rigging completely in the Setup room if you want to (and adjust with Joint Editor anywhere).

A PHI file is a text based representation of the figure hierarchy. Here is an example:-

objFile G:Current ProjectRuntimeGeometriesPhilCFull Assembly
002.obj

1 base xyz<br></br>
 2 lowerArms xyz<br></br>
  3 tray xyz<br></br>
 2 upperArms xyz<br></br>

Each line defines where a body part is in the figure hierarchy.

[hierarchy level] [body part name] [rotation order]

Indentation is not important but it makes it easier for humans to read.

Rotation order is important, the first must be axial to the body part. For a standard human in the T pose the legs and torso will have a first rotation of Y, the arms will be X

Best to pick up Roy Riggs PHI Builder from
http://www.royriggs.com/poser.html

With this you can use it to open your OBJ file then edit the hierarchy drag and drop style.

Well if there is a way to kinda auto rig it and then dive in to adjust that would be awsome. I downloaded the phi builder but again, no clue how to use it. I tried the help dile but it won't open with vista cause the .exe in this version of windows doesn't exist....

I'll just have to learn the hard way!

I still have to really learn the bone parenting dos and don't because I still have breakage in 3-4 different spots.

How many childs can come from a parent? infinate?
I have to look again to see how my groups are devided up. See whos touching who.

edit: I did open the obj file to see phi builder in action but when I open the phi file in poser it gives me an error talking about xyz rots and hei levels.

P8 just keeps crashing on me...... cant even change parents of bones (trying to correct mistakes) without it going down.

back to P6........

A parent may have any number of children.

Children may touch the parent but not their siblings.

(There is a way round that but at this stage it would only serve to confuse so will not elaborate).

Try the test function in PHI Builder to help determine any errors.

When i hit test in phi it says looks good!
But it's not.

Everytime I try to change parent/children order I get a crash (even in P6 now).

Also, since I initally rigged in P8, I'm not seeing the classic bend, falloff (names are escaping me now) in the joint editor. I dont really know how to use the falloff tubes in P8 and was going to use P6 to edit everything.

everything looks so different now compaired to when I edit a humanoid figure........ I'll post screen shots later (making a bird btw)..........

Bigger question: The eyes. I placed the center of the bone in the center of the eye...But it is having a big effect on the rest of the head. Should their be a dummy bone inbetween the head and eye? Or is this the

Quote - You will also need to delete the joint channels in the eye or else they will have an adverse effect on the head > Quote - You were talking about?

I dont even know what a joint channel is :(

Ok, Im getting real frustrated. I'm in poser 6 right now.

I have to reorder my bones, real "simple" I realized I have.....

bone1
     bone2
        bone3

and I need to reorder to

bone3
     bone2
        bone1

So, I go to the setup room, open the Hiearchy window and drag and drop them into the right order. No problem. I then LEAVE the setup room to go to the Pose room to save to my library....

This is when the crash happens. I'm getting this issue 19 out of 20 times. I have managed to get it to work (5% of the time) some of the time. Is there an easier way?

I assume you have to be in the setup room for this to work right, right?

On a side note: Who's using Poser 8 for setting up characters? Is it working for you?

Would you like to send me the files? I'll then be in a better position to be able to give more specific advice.

I don't use PHIBuilder at all and don't miss it.  Unlike some people I've never had problems rigging strictly in the Setup room, it's never really given me any trouble.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1875452&user_id=472534&np&np 385 bones (a little tentacle monster "nudity")

Sounds good PhilC, it dont want to jinx it but I may have it fixed.

I have corrected the bone order. It just kept crashing over and over again. Grrrr. But I got it in order now. Breakage in the mesh is gone. Now I'm just struggling with falloff zones and the EYES......
The eye advise is still messing me up, i dont get it.

I have other fun questions though!

I have 5 materials I mistakenly had in the obj on export, and my Cr2 is not tidy (the way it kicks it out hurts my brain). Is there a way to delete materials IN poser?

Or

Is there a way to have my Cr2 automatically clean itself up? ie: Look good to the human eye? A program (free) that I can send it through?

Also, I have also  mistakenly added deformer groups in poser 8 to the body of my bird (i dont know how really) And I can't seem tpo delete them. How do I go about doing this?

PhilC, I'll send you the file, I appreciate the offer!

I havn't textured it yet, and I havn't even played with materials. Lots of work to go still. The "feathers" on the head and tail won't stay like this, I'll be using a trans map. Blah, blah, blah, it's 5am.... gtg get some sleep!!

I've emailed you back an edited CR2 file.

When I got started creating Poser figures I found it mind numbingly difficult. Fortunately I was just too stubborn to quit. Consequently I'm very happy to be able to pass on what I learned :)

**General comments.
**Your figure is scaled 40% and faces "backwards" compared to "standard" Poser figures. Not an error but next time I suggest importing the OBJ scaling and orientating to the more conventional aspect then export out the OBJ and use that for the model. As I say, not an error just convention.

Hierarchy, grouping and joint rotation appears to be OK. I did not go through with a fine tooth comb but did not see any errors in the areas that I worked on.

**Jointing
**I worked on the following body parts only:-

• rthigh
• rshin
• rfoot
• rwing1
• rwing2
• rwing3
• rinnereye

I did not perform any symmetry routine so you will be able to compare my edits to the originals on the left.

I started by ensuring that joint rotation was correct, I then adjusted the alignment so that the twist joint was axial to the body part. Note that the foot twisting takes place entirely in the shin. Note the use of fall off zones on the rthigh and rwing1. The guiding principle there is to position the red outer sphere so that everything out side of it remains stationary when the joint is moved. I know that you have viewed my videos but a second glance may help to reinforce this point.

**Eyes
**To enable the eyes to rotate without deforming the head, the following channels were removed from the head using a text or CR2 editor:- - twistZ rinnereye_twistz

• jointY rinnereye_jointy
• jointX rinnereye_jointx

and the following channels were removed from the rinnereye - jointX jointx

• jointY jointy
• twistZ twistz

If you are going to do any amount of Poser work you will need this free utility for editing Poser files.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PoserTECH/ CR2 Editor by John Stallings.

You can use that to remove the redundant materials but you'll need to keep manually referencing the OBJ file to ensure you do not delete something that should remain. I used a tool specifically made for this purpose found in the Poser Pocket Knife. I also used that utility to delete the redundant deformers. http://www.philc.net/PoserPocketKnife.php (It also includes a Poser file editor).

Hope this helps,

Regards

Phil

Thank you thank you thank you PhilC, I am about to open the file up and check it out!!

edit: deleted question!

password: I'm not afraid of the setup room because PhilC is going to show me everything I need to know....

Well, looking at the figure I can visually see what you've done. Me like!

Now for the hard part... finding exactly what you had deleted in the cr2 for the eyes. I see the result and see what you have written in the post above, but because the cr2 is the way it is in the text file, I can't see wht I need to delete for the "linnereye"... Do you delete just the exact text the you had posted but for the "L" side ro do you delete EVERYTHING in the {brackets}.

It looks so messy in txt, I'll see how to use the Cr2editor, never used it before, but I need to dive in sometime!!

Got 2/3rds of the texturing done, just eyes and the tail feathres to go.......

After I get the easy stuff done I'll have to nit pick for awhile.

I still have yet to really discover why PhilC did some of the things he did. Example: Why did you point the foot bone to the back instead of keeping it pointed to the front? I dunno.
Also, How did you change the way poser was thinking the rotational axis was...how did you know to what degree to set it and WHERE did you do it in the set up room?

Next BIG Question.... HOW do you make an IK for the legs?

So after some playing around i found that the swap left and right sides in the symmetry option isn't working, yet I can go right to left or left to right...hmm any idea how to fix this?

also....how do I make an IK for the legs? a good tutorial anywhere?

it's 6:30am, time to go to sleep!

Many things about how exactly you rig a figure are style choices as much as anything.  I think a major one that should be done the same way every time, is that the root bone (typically the Hip) should always be perpendicular to the ground (that is, x and z values for the end points should be the same for each end, and preferably 0/0).  This allows you to rotate the hip along Y and the orientation of the figure will be the same from front to back.  You don't HAVE to do this, but it's a common standard and very helpful for the user, and when the root bone is not perpendicular to the ground, some users get annoyed (I would, for one).

Things like the foot bone pointing to the front or the back, imo that's just preference.  It mainly matters when you draw the bone, Poser will try to guess the joint rotation order that you want to use - sometimes it guesses wrong, or sometimes you will end up moving the bone's endpoints and you'll want to change the rotation order.  This is why you don't bother setting joint parameters or rotation order until you get all the bones placed where you think they should be, because if you change your mind, you have to redo joint parameters.

The two key points to keep in mind when choosing rotation order are: a) the first axis is always TWIST; and b) the last axis is the one that you want to have the majority of bending done with.  For up and down bones (hip, leg, head e.g.), typically this is YZX.  For bones that are perpendicular to the body and stick out to the sides (like the arms) it would by XYZ.  For bones that are perpendicular to the ground and stick out front and back (like a tail) it would by ZYX.  Fool around with it a while and you'll figure it out.

Orientation should be aligned with the polygons of the body part.  After you get the end points where you want them, in the Joint editor window "Center" view, there is an Align button.  This averages all the vertices of the body part's geometry and then aligns the bone to the longest cross section. 

Setting up IK is detailed in the manual and explained a lot better than I could do here, although I will say that doing it inside Poser is pretty cumbersome and fault-prone; I do it with Dimension3D's Poser File Editor, it makes it much easier.

That model of yours is done pretty well, nice job :)

I did go ahead and find the IK info in the manual (thnx pjz99) on page 499 in the pdf........It was much easier than I could have thought. Open the Heiarchy window, create ik, drag and drop the bones you want into the chain starting with the root and ending with the goal...Nice!
Still have allot to do, but I now have a feeling this will be the 1st of many characters!!

More questions.... PhilC mentions that my character is scaled down to 40% and 180degrees turned around.... All true. How do I fix this so that it reads 100%scaled and isn't turn 180. I know I should have fixed this BEFORE rigging but didn't...

Also:...Why doesn't my swap left to right work? What can I do to fix it?

Export the OBJ (whether from your modeler, or from poser) and re-import it.  IMO you want to be absolutely sure that the model imports into Poser at its intended 100% size and position.  Uncheck all the options in the Poser import dialog box.  You'd have to redo the rig, but chances are you learned something the first time around anyway and at least the thing isn't 300+ bones...

Re-rig? Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

Shrug, if it isn't something you're going to sell then nobody is going to come kill your dog, you don't have to re-rig it.

But I am going to sell it.....Isn';t there a way to TELL poser that this is now the zero pose and just set it?
I know i can just save it to the library any way I want, but it would be better to have a button I can click to say "this is now your new zero pose", "this is now your default setting".......

Anything like that?

I'm going to start doing some dif color maps now but I still have a few questions if anyone can help!

1. Is there a way to have my Cr2 automatically clean itself up? ie: Look good to the human eye? A program (free) that I can send it through?

2. Is there a way to TELL poser that this (whatever the current settings are) is now the default scale, 0 xyz position, and zero pose?

3. Why doesn't my swap left to right work? What can I do to fix it? My bones are labled the same with a r or a l before the naming convention.

4. How many polygons should a medium level figure be? And, does it matter if we are talking Tris or Quads?

Any and all help is always appreciated!

Some aspects of symmetry tool in previous versions of Poser are terribly bugged.  Most of these are fixed with Poser 8 with the current SR 2.1.

Regarding your orientation problem, you can try exporting the OBJ and re-importing it, and then loading the rig onto that, it might work.  If it was me I'd redo it, I don't like to sell sloppy work (and I really hate to BUY it).

Almost nobody actually looks in CR2s but I like to keep them neat nevertheless.  There is no particularly safe way to automate this though, and be totally sure your automation didn't trash up some necessary parameter.  Best to do - very carefully - by hand.

Poser does not care about triangle-vs-quad, although a model will usually show different phong shading depending on whether it is all quads or the quads have been triangulated (generally leave it quads).  All triangles also tends to make a really ugly UVmap template for anyone who wants to texture your model.

"Medium poly count" is pretty arbitrary; by common poser standards, I'd say 15k-30k polys.  Out there in the real world, the standards are totally different, but by Poser standards I think that's pretty commonly accepted.

15 to 30k, really?........I think my figure is about 120k tris, and it loads fast and is responsive. I think most figures (v4,m4,ect) are 100+ quads, right? I know Maya starts to get bogged down on my machine when I import a v4.

As for the symmetry bug.... I'm not sure if I updated to sr2, I gotta check it out, but I am doing this on 8, and I have never run into this before on any other figures. So I assume it's something I did or didn't do.

Poser says 8.0.1.10434
EDIT: Just realized this is SR1, going to download 2.1 right now

Fixing the Cr2 by hand means exactly what? Hit return after every bracket? I've done it once before.....ugg.

Another question....
This BUG has been plauging me across the poser 6 to poser 8 programs: When I load a Figure, it is not telling me the figure name. It says Figure 1 or it says Andy (for the 8 characters). I'm not just talking about my custom figure, all figures. Even if I rename it and save back to the library it does not change. Whats up with that?

Well V4 and M4 are not considered "Medium poly count".  They're in the 80k poly range, along with most popular Poser figures.   For the amount of detail on your figure, I'm sure you could get the same shapes with maybe a quarter of the polygons you used, but eh it's Poser, everything has huge poly count.  Some people won't be really happy about that, most won't care.

Making the CR2 tidy, to me, means that joint channels are named to something meaningful (e.g. bend, twist, side-side instead of "xrot" etc); nonworking materials are removed, if present; parameter dial names on Body are grouped logically; the figure name is something meaningful, and not "Figure 1"; reasonable limits are applied to joints; channels you don't want the user to fool around with are set to Hidden (e.g. translation values for all joints).  You don't have to do this stuff, just these kinds of things add value and people appreciate them.  Basically anything that ever annoyed you in a piece of Poser content you bought in the past, don't do that in your sellable content.

Quote - This BUG has been plauging me across the poser 6 to poser 8 programs: When I load a Figure, it is not telling me the figure name. It says Figure 1 or it says Andy (for the 8 characters). I'm not just talking about my custom figure, all figures. Even if I rename it and save back to the library it does not change. Whats up with that?

That doesn't happen for me, although if I do Edit -> Duplicate a loaded figure, then the copy will be named "Figure 1-2-3".  I just make certain the figure has a suitable name and it behaves OK.

I've had renderosity staff in the past tell me that my figure was still named "figure 1". They fixed it for me, but when I use it it still says figure 1. I dont know how to get rid of this bug!

Thank  you for the tips!

I'm currently making some poses. Then I'll be making some morphs for the eyes etc...

If you want I can take a look at your figure and see if I can reproduce it, feel free to PM me.

I didn't get into any morphs today. I did thumb renders for the poses and materials, boring but needed.
Here is a render with no post work, no bump or displacement.............

I updated to sr 2.1..............no changes at all, still have the same issues of not swapping left to right and my system always calling things figure 1, 2, 3, ect..............

took a break today but I'll pm you pjz tomorrow!

Sent you the link pjz, let me know if you have any issue with the skydrive. Unzip and merge runtimes.

Ok, New question!

I have made some armor for Kiwi and am having problems. The main issue is the fact when I turn his head side to side or up and down USING THE NECK (the armor is conformed) the armor starts to slip.

Now, i used the bone doner method, so all axis, rotation, placement is identical. I dont know what this issue is.

Another thing, when I go to the joint editor to look at the inner and out mat sphere to make my adjustments, they are not there?? Im trying this all in p8.

Any suggestions? I'll post screen grabs in a bit.

I think it is likely you'll end up wishing you had just redone the rig in the first place, dunno though.

By default in Joint Editor, the "Center" is picked (pivot of that particular bodypart).  Pull down the box and pick a rotation axis to get it to display.  Often when you switch cameras, the falloff zones won't be shown until you move the camera again.

You are so right, i wish i had listened and just re rigged....

of course my current problem is just a matsphere issue,.........................False positive, still have issues!!
Another question: In the cr2....there is what looks to be an initial import value of 1.......which i assume is 100%?? If I change this to .4 will it come in as 40%?

Or am I wrong and a value of 1 means true?

Edit: Still having issues, not sure it its just matsphere

What is the line of text exactly and where is it found?

see screengrab

Yeah I'm pretty sure that is "Initial Value" for PropagatingScale for the entire rig (the body, trickled down).

just what I need! Cause, as you can imagine, once I conform my armor it goes to 100% (even if saved in the library as 40%) an the it needs to be scaled again.

I still really dont know why the armor is slipping when character is moved at the neck.......

When using donor bones... Do you.....

1. keep only the bones you need.

2.keep the bone above and below the ones needed in the heiarchy.

3.keep them all, it doesn't matter.

1. None of the above....tell me why!

Keep the root bone (typically hip) out to the final extremity of the conformer piece, plus one past that.  For example for a fingerless glove, you'd have hip -> abdomen -> chest -> collar -> shoulder -> forearm -> hand -> index1 -> index2.  If you omit intermediate bones, the rig can still work but if the user scales any intermediate body part, the rig won't fit any more.  Note you don't HAVE to delete extra bones, it's just tidy.  They don't really do anything if there's no geometry for them to affect.

The clothing rig is probably not deforming exactly the same because the falloff zones for the conformer need adjusting, although if you are unlucky, it's because your rig produces asymmetrical deformation - it's backwards and scaled, and if this is what's going on then, well, you know what I'll tell you.

Actually the deformation is symetrical. It reacts the same from side to side. I have adjusgted the falloffs to encompass the entire piece (piece by piece) but it is still weird. It moves with the bodypart but it almost doesnt move enough. the further it gets away from 0 (x,y,z, rotations) the more pokethough I get.

Also, this is only happening (i think) on ONE bone. Only when I bend the figure from neck joint 2 does this happen. Neck joint 3, no deformation on the conforming armor. I'll post sreens in a seck