Well we all are hearing the news and reading the Kupa swan song thread and frankly transparent corporate "restructuring statement" from the new bosses at CL. First we hear that poser 5 for MAC OSX is "up and running" and that there will be a "Pro Pack" for poser5 with updated hosting plugins for lightwave,MAX ,C4DXL blah blah.... My speculation is that poser has been losing money hand over fist and the disasterous release of poser5 sealed its fate. It was a mistake to think you can pile some buggy third party modules on to ancient legacy code creating a NON hardware accelerated 3D application that had higher hardware requirements that Alias wavefront's MAYA or Newteks Lightwave 3D. this propack "update" has all the appearances of a Company polishing up the surface of an application to create "selling points" for potential buyers. But who will buy poser this time??? DAZ??... NO!! they are in the eviable position to fiil this Dedicated nich market with their OWN 3D character Program that uses modern standards (hardware acceleration Mac OSX support!!! Linux support, Open GL) Newtek,Discreet,Maxon? NOT LIKELY!! they all have big investments in their own character tools to recode poser from scratch to have it comply with modern hardware standards. Steve jobs From apple?? Uhh,,,two words PIXAR...RENDERMAN, But in reality many of us still have prefectly Viable versions of Poser4/propack so what ever happens the application wont dissapear completely and we Forward thinking MAC OSX users will have DAZ studio when it arrives.

Only logical reason for Daz to buy Poser would be that they by doing so would have the rights to the Poser file formats. Daz would then be able to use those in their Daz Studio with no hazzle as to rights and so on. But on the other hand, IF Daz bought Poser it would most likely mean the death of Poser at the same time, as there was no reason for Daz to keep a competitive program alive. Then again, IF Daz studio does what it promises, it would probably mean the death of Poser in any case.

It is not always good for one company to dominate a certain field. It helps to have competition in business, somehow it keeps you more honest. I do for one feel for those at CL, they have tried, even though many did not receive emails back from them, they have tried. It is hard to work for a company with your hands tied. And like I said, definately not good for one company to dominate a certain area for certain kinds of people. Sharen

Im rather pleased I have a system that runs P5 well and on the whole the work I'm able to do now is far superior to P4. So, I would like to thank Curious. In many ways P5 is an animators dream and as you say Wolf, just as P4 doesn't disappear from your computer neither does P5. I hope that a Mac version does come out for your sake. You'll love the morph putty tool for soft body dynamics, the dynamic hair is exquisite, within it's limitations the cloth room's amazing, the atmosphere, the new library system, the wind object, collision detection is less useful than you might think but still valuable in many situations and, of course, the materials room is phenomenal.

With the economy in its present state, I would not be counting on DAZ to come to the rescue. Who knows they may have put thier new software on hold. If the good ole USA goes to war, and gasoline prices go to 5.00 bucks a gallon, DAZ may have a hard time selling anything for 1.99. Not that I am spreading Doom and Gloom, but it could happen. Its just not a could time to be spending money. Face it people, we are talking about affordable low end 3d-software that has seen it biggest growth with Hobbist, not pro/commerical/artist.

Ahh! now I heard a piece on the radio about the American economy. Aparently every election year for the passed 50 years the stock markets have risen. It's unlikely that George II will buck the trend, seems we can expect a 20% rise. As to the war, a minor skirmish, it'll be over in a few days. Hardly worth sending the Ark out for...

"Face it people, we are talking about affordable low end 3d-software that has seen it biggest growth with Hobbist, not pro/commerical" I agree with Niles....it is the Hobbist that pays for software applications, many models etc. and we get new ones everyday, we also loose many hobbist everyday from burn out or other priorities. Sharen

I, for one, do not think that Poser will be orphaned. Nor do I think that DAZ or any major 3D software house will buy it off EGI; at least not yet. I think the restructuring is meant to get the house in order and, possibly, polish P5 so EGI can, hopefully, recoup some of its investment losses in CL. Given the release state of P5, I would be willing to bet the only way to do that would be to start from scratch. Since most of the new features seem to be modules licensed from other companies, this may/may not be a huge undertaking. Also, the current state of P5 would not seem to warrant a high enough selling price. However, if P5 becomes a viable and stable product that recaptured the marketshare it used to command, then EGI would have incentive to either keep it in their portfolio or sell it off to the highest bidder. I do think that Poser, being a leader in a niche market, has enough market potential to try to resuscitate. The advent of DAZ Studio - which appears to have a year's headstart in the "built from scratch" department - could change the landscape of the niche market; especially if it comes out and is a vast improvement over P4PP and P5. IMHO, DAZ would be foolishly spending its money to purchase Poser solely for the purpose of being able to use the Poser Proprietary File Formats. The File Formats are ASCII text and can be easily viewed and imported/exported. Likewise, reverse engineering for the purpose of program interoperability is legal. DAZ may want to formalize the ability to use the File Formats as a professional courtesy by purchasing the rights to do so, but buying Poser outright would be a waste of money when there is already considerable finances being spent on DAZ Studio.

• IMHO, DAZ would be foolishly spending its money to purchase Poser solely for the purpose of being able to use the Poser Proprietary File Formats. * Although that is correct so far as the current format version is concerned, acquiring some rights may still be a wise move for DAZ as it would allow them to further extend the file format to add new features, and use the extended format as 'native' in their own app without concerns regarding Intellectual Property rights. Bill

I want my Money back! I don't even have it programed in since the first week.

No matter what happens to Poser, this move is the best thing for it since...since...hell, maybe EVER! Too bad it didn't happen sooner. A LOT sooner.

"Although that is correct so far as the current format version is concerned, acquiring some rights may still be a wise move for DAZ as it would allow them to further extend the file format to add new features, and use the extended format as 'native' in their own app without concerns regarding Intellectual Property rights." If I am not mistaken, DAZ could do this anyway using DAZ Studio's file formats. Importing/Exporting Poser files and adding on features only available in DAZ Studio would not, AFAIK, violate any IP rights; since it will be code only decipherable by their own software. This may make the new files incompatible with Poser, but the addition of features could be a per user decision with, possibly, the ability to strip the additional code out for Poser compatibility.

Quote:* IMHO, DAZ would be foolishly spending its money to purchase Poser solely for the purpose of being able to use the Poser Proprietary File Formats. * Are you kidding me??? How many of you reading this would be more interested in buying Daz Studio if you could use it seamlessly with the Poser you are now running? If all the clothes and sets and models you now own did not have to be "converted" to another model but could be easily imported just as they are. I should think actually owning or having full rights to the propriatory File Formats would double the number of immediate purchasers. That's money in hand when you need it the most. The American economy is a little touchier. There might possibly be a window of economic advantage once the shoe drops and the anxiety of "maybe" a war is replaced with a decision. But no one know when that will be, and Next Summer is the only time I've seen mentioned for a possible Daz release or reaching beta conditions. There may not be as many Posers enthusiasts out there as we would like to think, but there are hard core ones. There is a base and now, desperate market. Seems to me there is a choice as whether to build of them or off the unknown. Resuscitating Poser is unlikely-- possible, but if I were Daz, I wouldn't try it. Without Open GL, the constant slow downs and limitations of over all Poser speed is facing a brick wall or outdated technology. I'm not a geek, I just listen hard when the experts talk over at PoserPros. HIRes textures and models have pushed Poser limitations against an insuperable wall. I don't want to buy over again from scratch, so needless to say I have vested interests, several thousand dollars worth and climbing a buck 99 a time, faster than I thought, in a fully Poser format compatible program. I ain't the only one. Emily

Steve, Karen and Larry are wonderful people, and true friends of mine. I'm really sorry to see this happen. -Mo

queri, I think you missed the reasoning behind that statement: "The File Formats are ASCII text and can be easily viewed and imported/exported. Likewise, reverse engineering for the purpose of program interoperability is legal. DAZ may want to formalize the ability to use the File Formats as a professional courtesy by purchasing the rights to do so, but buying Poser outright would be a waste of money when there is already considerable finances being spent on DAZ Studio." It is well within DAZ's grasp, as it is now, to continue support for Poser files without buying Poser; thereby retaining the Poser community support. Since DAZ would have to buy the whole thing "lock, stock, and barrel" if he were to buy the Poser codebase, it would be a waste for such a relatively small portion of the package. There may be the necessity to license the ability, but that would be a far less expensive endeavor than buyng the whole shebang.

Gee, can we let the body get cold before throwing dirt on it;-)

Completely agree with you, Stallion. CL isn't dead yet, and I'm assuming the reports of its demise have been greatly exaggerated, regardless of those who may be cheering on the Grim Reaper ;) I've found the Firefly renderer to be quite amazing, and would be sad if it was no longer supported. We're only beginning to discover all the amazing stuff that Poser 5 can do.

Poser is far from Dead. Even with all the problems Poser5 is still the best version so far.

"and we Forward thinking MAC OSX users will have DAZ studio when it arrives." Sheesh! Is that a baited comment, or what? (OS war fodder) So.. whatever, dude. For most software, 'forward thinking' is pretty much a way of life, isn't it? As in, "Is there going to be a Mac version?" Or, "when is the Mac version coming out?" Or,... yadda, yadda... Have fun feeling superior, dude, while most people are actually USING the software you're only hoping or waiting for. (snicker!)

I said I wasn't going to post here anymore, but.... I think it's important to remember that for every shift and change in corporate politics, there are people behind them, and sometimes people get hurt. Despite our occasional differences on some things, I think Steve desered better for his patience and perserverrance. The CL people tried harder than most, who would have just ignored the customer base altogether, like most 'high-end' companies. If in nothing else, that makes what Steve and CL did a success. Good luck Steve and everyone else. I am sure this is only a difficult period, and better things will come.

Hi CyberStretch It's probably moot now anyway, as I suspect that DAZ have already commited themselves to native and supported file formats. While importing third party file types is generally not a problem (at least for unencrypted formats) exporting can be a legal matter if it implies that some of the IP technologies or methods are actually actually being implemented in the application. However the main point I'm trying to make is that if DAZ wanted to keep their product line in Poser format files (for which there would be some justification in keeping as broad a customer base as possible) and yet add some 'DAZ' specific extensions for their own native functionality, this could be a legal problem (similar to those that Microsoft encounter). They could well look at marketing their products with both 'Poser legacy' and 'DAZ enhanced' functionality source files without worrying too much about cross compatibility issues if the latter was based on an extended format of the former. However, as I said, they have probably already made the decisions about file compatibilty. Bill

anyone got a link to Kupa's post? I only got back online yesterday, and I'm not up to speed yet expect for browsing the beta forum to find that default guy an nosfiratu had got the elbow... later jb

Do we REALLY have to do this?! Let's let Daz worry about what Daz is going to do, and stop making assumptions about what they should/shouldn't do. They seem to have made pretty good business decisions thus far...and I'm not quite ready to bury my copy of Poser yet. I'd rather build on what I have now, not on what I wish I had. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I understand the need to try to figure things out, here. I just don't want us to start setting expectations by anticipating what any company should/shouldn't do. I believe that this is part of what has led so many to unnecessarily bash CL recently. I'd hate to start that cycle all over again. It can further erode the future of a tool that is so useful to myself, and everyone else here in the community. So, unless Danfarr himself begins posting messages about the accquisition of CL, I'm not going to speculate. Instead, I will see what develops and put my money into products that I think will be best most useful, most supported and most developed as time goes on. (Stepping off the soap box now, sorry) Thanks everyone

There has been a lot of talk in this thread about acquiring file formats. Its my understanding that no one can own a file format, and no one can copyright one. The code for interpreting a file format is a different matter of course.

Ok, having read most of the above... Last time I spoke to Kupa he was going to Germany to close up Egi.Sys, of course that could have just been spin... Also with V3.0 being of a different format and mesh to V2.0 it's a fair bet that the file format will no longer be a problem, or is one of those things can can be cast into litigation for years and not worried about. Doubtless we will never know really know "the Truth" (tm) but it will be endlessly debated regardless :) later jb

Poser belongs to the parent company EGISYS and they are not selling AFAIK. It is their's, they bought it.

In business as in all areas of life, doodoo sometimes happens. I'd like to thank all the people at CL for all the hours of fun I've had and will continue to have with Poser and wish them all the best in the future.

rockets you hit it right on the head. We still have poser no matter what version we're using so lets get back to using it instead of worrying what tomorrow may or may not bring us.

Kick 'em when they're up, Kick 'em when they're down, Kick 'em with a stick, Kick 'em all around!

Thanks for your part in it too Anthony :)

:p @ Nosfiratu, lol

We all know that crap is king. Give us dirty laundry! ;-P

LOL@Nos, So you do know the lyrics to Dirty Laundry?

Although you goofed a bit:

*Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're stiff
Kick 'em all around

I know some of them. And talk about apropos!

"And talk about apropos!" You're stiff? LOL ;0)

only for you, hon! ;->

So, when's your book hitting the shelves? Can we get autographed copies?

I've got some bootleg copies of Anthony's book on PDF for sale. How much is it worth to you? ;)

Do I dare respond honestly? ;0)

LOL!!!

Hi, Steve, Hi, Karen! Hi, Anthony! {hugs} I'm sorry that you saw this thread. :deep sigh: Some users don't realize that there are real human beings, not machines, behind this product... people who have cared deeply, worked hard, and bent over backwards to give us Poser... and that there are people still in the office selling, maintaining, and supporting it. Thank you for everything you have done... and I mean that most sincerely. And thank you for being real humans beings and part of this community. Carolly

Though I can't anyone knows what's happening didn't the press release say they'd be concentrating on Poser and....pro v what ever that is. "Ahh! now I heard a piece on the radio about the American economy. Aparently every election year for the passed 50 years the stock markets have risen. It's unlikely that George II will buck the trend, seems we can expect a 20% rise. As to the war, a minor skirmish, it'll be over in a few days. Hardly worth sending the Ark out for..." Um Saxon...we just had an election year...and the stock is really failing, we still have two till a presidential and it is not looking happy.... I highly doubt this will be a minor skirmish, they are already talking draft in the news(saw a report sunday night), my grandfather looked at me and asked if we were ready to move back to Canada. Either way unemployment is rising like crazy. My own job(which I just got six months ago after 2 1/2 years of looking) is on shaky ground due to recent corporate Shakedowns and dishonest regional directors. It's like people are just noticing it this for the first time or something. So back to the point, in six months when(if...I have not seen and date or time frame at all, and soon doesn't count) Daz Studio come out will anyone beable to afford, will daz not have any problems...? That would be a miracle.

Balls. That's what it takes for a man who is getting slapped in the face and just looks at you and says "Hi, how are you today?" Cooper, I never met you and most likely never will but you just got another star. Because of the profession I've chosen my life has it's highs and it also has it's lows but it is what I have chosen to do and I do it well. I hope you can maintain the same attitude and I wish you luck on your next voyage.

Hi, I Just wat to say a BIG THANK YOU to all the effort you guys at CL have put in to make poser 5 a reality. I know that this is a big part of your lives. As a user I can only imagine the long hours and late nights you've put into it. All I can say is that I have enjoyed using it and I will continue to enjoy it for a long time to come. Thank You Good Luck, Womble Womble

Tirj, OK, I confess I'm an optimist...

Geeze, Saxon, I wish I was. An optimist that is. This is a sucky situation all around. I hope it didn't sound like I attacked you, Kupa, cause I certainly didn't mean to. From reading your goodbyes, it really sounded like you got the rawest end of this deal and was expected to put the best possible face on it for the longest time. And then, after you got things relatively stable, you and the rest of the real Poser team were dumped. No, the stupid businessmen here were not in Santa Cruz. I'm nearly totally disabled, and Poser is one of the few things that keeps me getting up in the morning. I love it that much. Enough that at this point-- oweing little to Egysys-- or however they spell it-- I want it kept alive somehow, in some form. I wish you, your family and your friends well and happy lives. I thank you for what you were able to do under almost impossible circumstances with too little staff and way too little money. And, I even love Poser 5. I jsut wish I could work it better. Ok, and faster.:)) Emily

.

Poser was, is, and will be (for a long time) what gives my dreams and ideas wings and makes me feel like I can fly... (I am homebound, too.)

Bugs and all! Poser is an incredible program for price. The average Joe can now have on his desk a the ability to model and animate characters that rivals the anything that the motion picture could have produced 20 years ago on million dollar budgets. I myself being a programmer can appreciate the hard work that must have gone into developing a software package of this complexity. I seriously doubt that someone is going to replace this niche with an as affordable product that can do what Poser does. If they could they already would. I feel that with all the frustration that I have encountered with the bugs I have had 100 times more fun playing with this fantastic package.Long Live Poser!

Book is available now for advance ordering from www.sarcha.com, $15.95 plus shipping per copy. And if kupa wants to be my PDF distributor, I'll be glad to give him a piece of the action! ;-) A

I had Poser from Fractal Design to MetaCreations to Curious Labs. Well, it had me. We'll see what's next.