Okay, I'm running a day or two behind on the promised critiques. What a shock! ;-}~

I know Shoshanna was looking for critiques as was jstro. Anyone else who wants critiques, or to give their critiques on the March Challenges, here's a good place for it. (If I don't scare everyone off with my opinions!)

jstro (story 1) - You do a good job setting up the scene and most of the characters with their actions. I think your story would be a lot stronger, though, if you wrote it more from the girl's perspective. I'm guessing that she's about 10 years old; she probably wouldn't use words like "green verge." (Or is it a regional word? I've never heard it before.) I want to know more about her since this conflict centers around her. Just give me a fed tidbits - when she looks at the candy, which pieces does she go after? Is she the caramel type, or pure, unadulterated chocolate? Does she politely take some of the generic stuff, or does she scoop up some of the treasured bite-sized candy bars and hope Ross likes the other stuff? We get an idea of Ross' character from his actions, so it's a shame she doesn't show as well. It's a few small details like this that would really add color to the vignette. I do like how the scene ends, not just the fact that an adult shows up, but that he grabs the hose, obstensibly to wash down windows.

Shoshanna (story 1) - I definitely got the wrong idea from the mother pulling something out of the cupboard and the husband getting upset about the "damned private toys!" We'll just leave it at that.

I hate to say it, but there were some punctation issues that made things confusing for me. (Chuck had pointed a big one out in an earlier post.) Also, the mother says something to Claire and she responds that she needs the Trolls to keep her company "when you are always away working." That sounds like something an adult woman would say to her husband, not her mother. It bothered me. The fact that the argument was over collectable Trolls was a humorous idea, and it definitely got points for being clever while sounding authentic. Fights can start over the strangest things.

Shoshanna (story 2) - I liked this one much better. The dialog was much more believable and the ending was humorous. For some reason, I imagined the people looking like the characters from the Gnome book put out a several years back. Being a stickler, I'm going to tsk on the punctuation again, but this time the errors didn't get in the way the story.

Shoshanna (story 3) - Very nicely done on the descriptions. I'm going to harp on the punctuation again, but the flow of the story is well done, and the writing is clear. You do slip and change the point of view between the husband and wife a few times - at one point in the same sentence, no less. (Boo! Hiss! Unless absolutely necessary, keep the same POV in the scene.) I'd suggest toning down one or two of your descriptions (e.g. her traitorous blue eyes sparkled with unshed tears, each withheld diamond drop a desperate plea for him to live) - with all the emotion already in the scene, descriptions like that can edge into maudlin.

The challenge entries were definitely a great read, and I look forward to seeing April's entries!

I would love to have your feedback. :)

Thank you very much Crescent :-) I know my punctuation is awful. I just don't know how to correctly punctuate things. re Story 1 Well, I got one bit right. I wanted you to think she might have a slightly more adult obsession :-) She was meant to be talking to her husband re being away working, so I definitely got that bit wrong. re Story 2 It's a kids story. I make them up when I babysit. For some reason, kids seem to find the idea of men sneaking off to the pub completely hilarious. Almost as funny as toilet humour. re Story 3 I was afraid I'd overdone it, I was trying to get around the no words rule I'd set myself. I actually went back over it after I'd finished it and deliberately went through trying to add colours, sounds and scents just to fill it up a bit :-) I'm hoping some kind soul here would consider copying and pasting one of my entries and correctly punctuating it. I'd really welcome the chance to see how it ought to be done. Somehow, when I try and read the rules in a grammar book I just don't see how I apply them to the things I write. The other thing that gets me every time is when you write conversation, where do you start the sentence? Should it be on a new line every time, or just squashed into the story like the rest of the words? Shanna :-)

It's beddy-bye time, so I'll have to put down the red ink pen until tomorrow. ;-) Cheers!

Shanna, I can answer one question for you and that is about dialogue.

Every time a character speaks, that piece of dialogue should be its own paragraph. The action of that character can tied to that dialogue. When a new character speaks or moves, start a new paragrpah. It is easier for the reader to follow.

*"You know how it goes," she said. She picked up the book and opened it to page 150.

He bent closer. "I don't see what you mean." He straightened and cleaned his glasses.

"Pay attention. It's all in here." She handed him the volume and turned to leave.

He shook his head as she went through the door.*

See???? Not hard. Just remember: each character's dialogue and action as they interact gets its own paragraph. Not stirring prose, but you see how easy it is to keep the two characters and their conversation straight when you allow white space between them.

It is old fashioned. I know a lot of modern authors don't like to obey any rules of grammar or punctuation because they claim it stops the flow...but, really, it is just a matter of making it easier for the reader to move from point A to point B.

Does that help on that one item?

That helps a lot Dialyn. Thank you. Shanna :-)

You're welcome. You write with a lot of energy, enthusiasm, and imagination, and joy of the word. I'm glad you've joined the forum. :)

I'd be glad to receive critics too... I know that my words or my phrasing are weird, but I'd really like to know how to better my English... While voting ChuckEvans said: "I always make allowances for your words 'cause I know you are working in a different language. So, I didn't let that detract from your story." I'm aware that there is something that could detract from the story, after all... And I'd really like to know what it is, without your help I cannot figure out... I'm sorry that this help can be only one sided, 'cause I surely cannot give advices, and my critics cannot go deeper than "I like (or I don't like) it"... But if you need something about Italy... well just ask!

jgeorge, you may not feel comfortable about commenting on grammar, spelling, punctuation, but I certainly would value your comments on if the story is clear, delivers its message, is understandable, touches you in some way, etc. There is feedback one can give on the mechanics, but probably more important to many of us is whether or not we reached our reader. :) I have a great reluctance to provide feedback because I know there are stylistic differences between writers and I might not structure a story the same way as someone else would (and we both have valid reasons for making the choices we make). It really helps me when someone asks for help on something specific, like Shanna asked about dialogue. That shows me that's an area she feels less comfortable with and is open to suggestions about. Maybe that's just me. I'm not here to hurt anyone's feelings and I'm not any great critic so any feedback I give should be taken as just a mild comment from a single reader that may be safely ignored.

Dialyn....thank you very much for the enormous compliment:-) I always look forward to reading your stuff, but what I treasure is the fact (selfish though it is) that even if nobody else comments, you are almost always sure to make the effort when I post something. I really appreciate it. Shanna :-)

jgeorge, I took the liberty of writing out your entry the way that I read it. As you can see, there are very few changes. Anyway, this is how I read it :-) " Susanna opened the suitcase. She quickly glanced around the room, to see what she could take as a souvenir without feeling like a thief. ... " - This doesn't work, you know. I won't leave. - You must leave, you are packing... - I'm packing because YOU are making me do so, but you know as well as I do: it cannot work. - Susanna, dear... - I've got it! You can make me wait a little, so that I can say goodbye to him... It wouldn't seem so unnatural... - You cannot wait: if you meet him again a dialogue will follow, and he'll force you to stay. You must leave now, before he gets back. - But it is not a natural thing for me to go this way... I won't leave. - Susanna! This is my story, the plot requires that you leave! - Of course I'll do whatever you write, but you know as well as I do that my leaving won't fit with the Susanna character YOU created... and you are going for realism, coherency and so on, aren't you? - But this means I have to change the plot, and the final scene, and the whole thing! ... Okay, let's go back to the writing... " Susanna opened the suitcase. She quickly glanced around the room, to see what she could take as a souvenir without feeling like a thief. Her eyes stopped on the little photograph on the closet.(? to me a closet is a cupboard so I assumed you meant a bedside table, or something similar.) She took a deep breath, closed the empty suitcase and put it back under the bed. ..." Obviously I am trying really hard to keep this in your words, not put it into mine. I would not have used the word dialogue, but I left it in because you might have chosen to use it, your character is discussing her author writing dialogue so it is appropriate to your story. I really liked the way your author called her character dear, for me it gave the whole conversation an overtone of fond exasperation coming from the author at her determined little characters rebellion. :-) Anyway, it might not be textbook English, and I wouldn't dare to punctuate it (see above for critique of my stuff lol) but I hope it is helpful feedback :-) Shanna :-)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12436&Form.ShowMessage=1126491

Crescent - Thanks for the critique, I really do appreciate it. It's an excerpt from a book I'm writing, so perhaps it was a bit hard to see just who the viewpoint character was. It was Maggie. She's 13. I humbly disagree about the green verge. I don't believe narration should be limited to words the viewpoint character may or may not use. Dialog, yes. Narration; I don't think so. Verge may not have been the right word, but for the life of me I could not think of the proper term for that bit of grass between the sidewalk and the curb. Suggestions? As to how they divvied up the candy, I thought I was fairly clear on that. They took turns, and the name brand pieces went pretty quick. As to preferences, now really. Is there any real candy besides chocolate? All others are but pretenders. :-) jgeorge I thought you had the most original interpretation of them all. It was wonderful. The turning point for me, as I said before, was - Susanna! This is my story, the plot requires you to leave! Until then some words (like dialogue) seemed wrong, but then they (or at lest it) became exactly the right word to have been used. You used some sentence fragments, like A quick glance around the room... That very well may have been the intended style or it may have been working in a different language, so it's hard to say if they needed fixing or not. They worked out OK as written, so I assumed they were intended. If given the job to edit it, the following is what I would have recommended. Take it for what it's worth, as I'm no expert. "Susanna opened the suitcase. A quick glance around the room, to see what she can take as a souvenir without feeling like a thief. ... " - It doesn't work, you know. I won't leave. - You must leave, you are packing... - I'm packing because YOU are making me do so, but you know it as well as me: it cannot work. - Susanna, dear... - I got it! You can make me wait a little, so that I can say goodbye to him... It wouldn't seem so unnatural... - You cannot wait: if you meet him once more a dialogue will follow, and he'll force you to stay. You must leave now, before he's back. - But it is not a natural thing for me to go this way... I won't leave. - Susanna! This is my story, the plot requires you to leave! - Of course, I'll do whatever you write, but you know as well as me that my leaving won't fit to the Susanna character YOU created... and you are going for realism, coherency and so on, aren't you? - But this means I have to change the plot, and the final scene, and the whole thing! ... OK, let's go back to the writing... " Susanna opened the suitcase. A quick glance around the room, to see what she can take as a souvenir without feeling like a thief. Her eyes stopped on the little photograph on the dresser. She took a deep breath, closed the empty suitcase and put it back under the bed. . . Shoshanna I think everyone reading this was lead to believe she was hiding sex toys, so I'd say you succeeded very well. Very funny twist. In addition to punctuation I really think white space would help a lot. Here are my humble suggestions. Again, I'm no expert, so take it with a pound and a half of salt. Do you love any, do you love none? "So you see why I called you, Janet," he finished apologetically, returning the last item to the shelf and closing the wardrobe. " I need your help. We've got to make her see that this is not normal." The old woman sighed, then patted his hand gently. "I'm sorry Alan, I just don't know what to say. I never realized when..." Her words were cut short as they heard a car pull into the driveway. "You wait here," Alan told her. "I'll bring her up. Best to get it over with right away." He left the room as she nodded, leaving her to sit gingerly on the edge of their double bed, smoothing her smart skirt over aching knees. Her eyes kept returning to the shocking cupboard. It looked so ordinary from the outside. Claire's mother shifted uncomfortably, suddenly aware that she could feel something suspiciously furry against her ankle. There were no pets in this house. She leant forward to look under the bed. Straightening quickly, she lost the urge to look in any other drawers or cupboards in the house. Claire must have gotten this from her fathers side of the family, Janet decided, there were none of these kinds of goings on in the Smith family history. Claire was startled to find her husband home before her. She tried to unobtrusively tuck the small gift box she carried behind her handbag as she smiled at him, wondering why he should be standing in the hall with such a serious look on his face. She reached out with her free hand to touch the side of his face, intending to kiss him, but to her surprise he drew back from her touch. She faced him, worried now. Something awful must have happened. Had someone died? "What is it Alan? Has someone been hurt?" He shook his head. "I need to show you something. It's important." He led her upstairs, his expression grim. "Is it a surprise?" Claire asked, anxiously glancing at her husbands face. He couldn't have found them; she always made sure she put them all away. "Just come with me," he replied, seeming more strained than angry. She revised her opinion, not that bad then. She clutched her handbag tightly to her side, treasuring the fact that her little secret purchase was definitely still safe. He'd never go into her handbag. Claire stopped dead in the threshold. Her mother was sitting on her bed. She rushed forward, throwing handbag and box on the dressing table to fold herself down at her mothers feet. "Are you all right?" she asked. "Is it dad?" Then, before she could help herself the words sprang out, "Did you finally leave him?" Her mother jumped. "What? Why would I leave?" She struggled to find words for a moment. "Claire Feiney! How could you ask me such a thing?" she scolded, before pulling her mind back to the task in hand. "It's you, young lady, that has some explaining to do." Claire looked at her blankly. Mrs. Deane gestured towards the wardrobe with her chin. "I've seen inside there, though I can't believe my eyes." She watched as her only daughter looked from one forbidding face to the other, and then at her wardrobe, and dissolving into tears. "Those are my private things," Claire sniffed. "How could you?" "Private things?" her husband burst out angrily. "You can stand there and call those," he spluttered, seeking the right words, "those damned TOYS private things?" "You've got to face up to it Claire," her mother said sternly. "You've got a problem, and you need to deal with it. Nobody in their right mind would have a cupboard full of Gonks" Claire stood up shakily. "They are called Trolls, not Gonks, and you are not taking them away from me. They are the only friends I've got, when Alan is always working away." She moved towards the wardrobe and leaning protectively against the door. With an embarrassed glance at his mother-in-law, Alan held his hands out to his wife. She took them cautiously, her body tense, in case he tried to pull her away. "Look," he entreated her softly. "When you got the first couple of those things, I'll admit, I kind of liked it, but that was a long time ago. You never mentioned them again and I forgot all about them. But honey, there must be a couple of thousand in there! Why on earth would anyone want to keep a cupboard full of gonks?" Janet looked hesitantly at Alan. "I think you might want to look under the bed, dear." She lifted the valance to reveal a heap of the cheerily smiling little creatures. "You betrayer!" Claire shook with rage. "You're the one who bought me my first troll." "And what may I ask, is in the box you brought in with you this evening?" Alan asked before shaking his head. He had a horrible feeling he already knew. "It's the prize of my collection," she replied, rushing over to retrieve it from the dressing table. "A rare white elephant troll." It was going to be a long evening. P.S. The link is to the original challenge in case some passing through wonder where they can be found. jon

Thank you so much! You cannot immagine how I appreciate this! I noticed a few things. For example the 'sentence fragments', it Italy they are used quite often as literary device, and in no way they sound so strange... in some particular contests just a little studied... I put it in the 'part written by the author' because there I wanted a literture style, but I didn't realize that for an English speacker it was noticeable, an Italian wouldn't even notice it... And then there is the mistery of the 'closet', the Italian word is 'comodino', I think it can stand for a bedside table even if it's not a table, it can have drawers and doors, only it's the size of a small table. Why my dictionary translates it as 'closet' is beyond my comprehension; from the problem you both have with the word 'closet', I realize it can be everything but a 'comodino'! Maybe the dictionaries are not so reliable, after all... Thanks again... You have been so kind...

oops, I should never write directly here... A lot of typos :(

Thank you jstro :-) A great big smiley thank you :-) Shanna :-)

My thoughts (in case anyone cares) on whether or not the author should avoid words the viewpoint character wouldn't use. Whether or not the narrative should use words that the character would not, is an aspect of point of view, and depends on the distance that you want to achieve between the narration and the protagonist. In a first person narrative you should always only use worlds the protagonist knows and would use, obviously, but in third person you have a wide range of stylistic choices. Using language the same way the viewpoint character would is a good way to establish character, and to achieve a close connection between the reader and that character, but sometimes there are reasons not to do so. Here are some examples of times when I, personally might avoid using a characters' voice (I'm sure there are more): The protagonist's voice may not suit the tone you want to achieve. The protagonist's vocabulary may be too limited, making narrative written in that way too clunky to be read. The story requires some distance either in emotion or time from the protagonist -- like when the narrator is the protagonist grown up, or when the protagonist will die during the story. I feel the story is appropriate to an "omniscient" narrative voice. Perhaps I want the freedom to follow several characters around, but the consistancy of a single voice, for example. Hope someone finds this musing useful/informative. :)

I liked Jon's story very much, but I'm still not convinced "green verge" was a better choice than "grass." (Stylistic differences are honorable.) But it stimulated excellent discussion so I guess there was a benefit in itself. :)

I just informally polled 3 native English-speaking teachers here. No one could come up for a term for the green verge. I think it is one of those things in the English language that needs a name but doesn't have an official one. I know there is a book full of those things, which themselves have a name, but I can't remember that either. (What do you call the metal plate around a skeleton-keyhole on old doors? A keyguard. What do you call the last dollop of ketchup or the like stuck in the bottle? I once knew. What do you call the little plastic cap on a shoe lace? I'd call it a telomere on a chromosome, but has it been called a lacecap?) My vote for a synonym to green verge would be the grassy margin. How about a truncated lawn?

dialyn, A follow up question on your explanation on the dialogue/paragraph rule for Shoshanna: Let's say you start with a quote, followed by action or narration, and return to a follow up comment by the same person. I'd keep it all in one paragraph, yet it seems awkward to me when I do it. Is it just bad form? Is there a length limit? Example: "You know how it goes," she said. She picked up the book and opened it to page 150. "Look right here."

I guess my question is, does it need to be that specific? It's not an construction plan. It's not a story for engineers. The little girl is sitting on the curb. A little boy sits down beside her. He lays out candy on the grass. What does knowing the sname for that strip of green add? Nothing for me. I'm not convinced finding the exact term for that is really meaningful. That seems visually enough for me. But it does add something to the rest of you. Which is why different writers have different writing styles. And the difference is a good thing. I think calling something a telemere on a chromosome would completely stop me from enjoying a story...I'd be running to the dictionary. Here's the thing. We can all pride ourselves with our vocabulary but there's no need to beat the reader over the head with our dictionary. Sometimes simple is best. But that's just me.

mysteri ... I personally would keep the speaker's words, action, and the speaker's additional words altogether in the same paragraph. If I change to a new paragraph, that signals to most readers that I am changing speakers. My goal, always, is try to be as clear as possible to the reader. But if it seems awkward to you, then, perhaps, you need to restructure the paragraph so it reads better to you. Sometimes reading aloud helps determine where the rhythm is.

Proof before post. That should be "name," not "sname." Good grief. Proof before post.

Yes, I think I over scienced green verge. Grass probably would have done fine. I wanted to make it clear that they were in that small grassy area between sidewalk and street, and think of lawn as the area between sidewalk and house. But in retrospect, I think grass would be just fine, and will change it in the novel. jgeorge - I think of a closet as a space (like a small room) behind a door in the wall of a bedroom or entry hall used to store things in or hang clothes in. I don't think of it as a piece of furniture. However, in may well be. Many words have many meanings as often discovered in a good unabridged dictionary. I suspect closet is technically correct, but not often used in the States for a piece of furniture, and therefore sounded odd to Americans (and perhaps to other English speakers as well). It certainly was not something that the reader could not derive via context, so really was a minor quibble, at least for me. jon

"Let's say you start with a quote, followed by action or narration, and return to a follow up comment by the same person. I'd keep it all in one paragraph, yet it seems awkward to me when I do it. Is it just bad form? Is there a length limit?"

I think (or do I?) that technically, grammatical rules would specify the approach you described. Mostly, I think (there I go again!) grammatical rules were designed to improve readibility. Hence, the comma (which has the widest variety of usage, I belive).

For me, reading a dialogue in a story HAS to be smooth. When two characters are arguing, for example, I don't want the rapid exchange to be "jilted". (hmmmm, wrong word) A quote with a description followed by another quote seems very smooth to me. A paragraph break and a change of speaker then also seems smooth. Dialyn does it so well.

Sometimes, not much is needed to augment the spoken words. Again, this takes some talent on behalf of the writer AND some good development of the characters so that the reader "knows" them already and the words they speak are assisted by this knowledge.

Let me try to illustrate (ugh!):

"You're pathetic!"

"What?"

"I said, you're simply pathetic!"

"Hey, anyone could have lost their car keys."

So, is this an argument? If we knew the characters well enough, we would know it was not. If we knew the first speaker, developed in the "beginning" was kind of a prankster and a cute little teaser (and loved the other person), it changes the whole dialogue.

I'll re-write the exchange written with "descriptions" with the quotes to show what I mean and to show where added descriptions might be needed (when characters aren't as well "known" yet):

"You're pathetic!" Lisa could barely conceal her playfulness so she turned her head away.

"What?"

"I said, you're simply pathetic!" Knowing her teasing had plucked on just the right nerve, she cupped her hand over smile breaking over her lips.

"Hey, anyone could have lost their car keys." The embarrassment turned his face red.

Unable to control herself any longer, she quickly turned and pounced on him. "You know, you REALLY are pathetic...falling for my teasing so easily." She pushed him backwards so he fell on the bed. "Maybe you just pretended to lose them so I'd have to search all over your body for them."

Well, not a great example but...

If we knew how much Lisa loved him and what an impish girl she was, we could have written it without added description (to some extent).

(OK, I'll crawl under my lexicon)

jgeorge: I apologize for not doing what others have already done. I wanted to give your entry a bit of a go myself. But, as usual, I am late. As said above (though not in these words), a story must have several strong points (in my unprofessional opinion): Imagination. Something different. Something not read a hundred times already. (even this is not a MUST...but at least a different twist on a love story or a mystery) Character development. Readers LOVE to "grab hold" of a character and relate to them. "Feel" them. Understand them. Plot. Have everything else but no plot and readers will throw what you have written away. Grammatical correctness. No one wants to have all the ingredients listed above BUT stumble over awkward punctuation or incorrect grammar. So, as far as I am concerned, if all the thoughts, ideas, plot development (and so forth) are done well, I can make allowances for some sporadic grammatical problems. Not huge grammatical problems, though. And you, my faraway "friend", do pretty darn well with this language. (you should hear the people I have to communicate with here in Georgia sometime...LOL)

I was telling someone not so long ago what good feedback Chuck Evans can give....and you proved me right. Thank you for that rare feeling. :)

Big words? I love playing Scrabble. (don't get to use big words there often but knowing "wye" is a word is very useful sometimes...LOL). To comment on the above... A writer needs to impress people with the things I listed above. Imagination, plot, characters that you will remember forever. A writer does NOT need to show off his/er vocabulary. And good writers will seldom do that. No need to work "hemidemisemiquaver" into a musical story. It alienates the readers. Perhaps, even making them feel stupid (if they have to look it up). Take a "look" at your audience. Writing a science fiction novel? I suspect the readers in that genre might be a bit more educated (or think they are...hehe "You snobs!"). Writing a novel with a strong love line? Then you might consider more "common" words. If you find yourself wanting to use a specific (and probably difficult) word, ask yourself if your average reader will understand it. Or are you just using it to show "word prowess"? One of the beauties of the English language is its descriptiveness (<---- is that a word?). WOW! There are so many words with small differences in conotation and nuances. I sometimes halt when telling a story to friends because I want to use JUST the right word to describe what I am trying to say. I want them to get the EXACT meaning. BUT, I also try to use a word I know they will understand. Also, remember your characters. A scientist in your novel might very well use words that are unknown to the readers. I think that's acceptable. Lord knows I have to hear similar words from doctors (LOL). So, I think it's OK for your anal-retentive character to use those kinds of words sometimes. "Dune" had its own vocabulary. I think it worked well (and it was easy to check in the glossary provided at the end of the book) Me? I like big words. Sometimes, in arguments/debates with fellow Georgians, I throw in one (or two...hehe) I hope will stump the listeners. But that's a debating tactic. Not to be used when "convincing" readers to love your writing. In closing, I will never forget A word I learned while reading an A. E. Van Vogt book. Eidetic. Hardly anyone knows what it means. But, it was the absolute perfect word for that novel...about a gu with two brains who could remember a place he had visited before so acutely that he could make himself "go" there. OK, I'm done. Just remember, this is a reader's point of view. Not an editor, proof-reader, published author or literary advisor. Just a reader. (Oh, and thanks, dialyn. You're so nice to me.)

Personally, I appreciate it when authors use some words I don't understand and have to look up. I want to learn new things. And that's the way one learns new words. (Of course, if I'm looking up 5 words per page, I quit!) It's why I read National Geographic in Spanish, because I am forced to expand my vocabulary in Spanish considering all the topics the magazine covers. I'm going to come across as a word snob here, but I think many readers are regrettably lazy. Generalization coming up--and too many people are comfortable using a tiny fraction of the words available to them, and using them poorly at that! (Maybe that's just a reaction to teaching high school students.) I am determined to use the right word when I write, even if it means a bit of a challenge for the reader. My wife and I have a lot of good discussions as I pull out the bedside dictionary to look up some obscure word or usage. (Any yes, I am both anal-retentive and a sci-fi fan.) Why should a person feel stupid for using a dictionary? It is the stupid-by-choice person who won't take the time to use the appropriate reference to answer a question he or she has. The reference I really need is a reverse-dictionary. There is a counterpart to "eidetic" meaning a perfect memory for a physical action, allowing the rememberer to perform the action perfectly. I encountered the word once but have never been able to track it down again.

Thanks to those who confirmed that I did indeed have the rule right. I think my problem is that I tend toward long, complex, convoluted sentences. (But you noticed that already.) Thus, when I start inserting narrative between two related comments, it sounds clumsy. That, and basically I just suck at dialogue. I'm happier using "no words" as Shoshanna would say.

jgeorge- As an American, I would call a piece of furntiture in which clothes were hung a "wardrobe," though that word seems very British to me, while I would call the small room or built-in space as jstro described a "closet." to anyone interested- Regarding telomeres, I have read several articles comparing them to the little plastic caps at the ends of shoelaces. Apparently both structures serve to keep the underlying fabric from fraying. In chromosomes, telomeres get shorter after each cell division. When they are "worn away" the DNA unravels and the cell dies. Thus, we age and die, and are in fact programmed to do so after a certain number of cell divisions. Stop the wearing away, and theoretically at least, you have a shot at immortality. (That's why cancer cells can go on dividing forever; they produce an enzyme, telomerase, which keeps repairing the shoelace cap, allowing uncontrolled division.)

I tend to agree with you, mysteri. First of all, just finding a high school student who likes to read is a challenge. And I agree with using the right word with the precise nuance (or conotation). But I wouldn't expect complex words to pop up in a story as often as one might encounter them in the JAMA. (but you already knew/stated that...hehe) I would disagree a bit, though, on the writer needing to "challenge" readers with new words. I mean, use a word if the word needs to be precisely THAT word. Not necessarily throwing it in to "challenge" the reader. I'm not sure why people read. I read for a few reasons: I read news for the obvious reason(s). But when it comes to recreational reading, I want enjoyment. I don't mind occasional words that I never heard of. But, as you said, not one or two every page. I suspect a lot of people read a book to be entertained. To relieve stress or just pure enjoyment. Getting "lost" in a fantasy world. Perhaps, most people are like that. Having said that, I must point out that words (and knowing new words) are still important to me. The guy in the adjoining cubicle and I love to "one up" the other on new words. Our small office dictionary is right on the shelf in front of us (and used nearly once a week to settle a discussion...LOL). At home, I have a huge ditionary. I took time to pick it out. I wanted the best. I wanted the Oxford dictionary but it was a bit too steep in price. (it's the first item I looked for when shopping in Foyles in London). Regardless, it's an interesting discussion with some good viewpoints.

My vocabulary is reasonably large, and I too own a dictionary that is very, very thick. But I don't look up words in it to find out what they mean, I look them up to make certain I spelled them correctly. (Never could spell, ) I have always learned new words from the way they are used. (Which is maybe why I blithely put in a dumpload of madeup vocabulary in my latest manuscript,only to have my test readers throw up their hands in dismay.)

I guess it depends on what role you want to take with your reader. I assume my reader is probably smarter than I am, and that trying to make them feel stupid by using obscure or ultra-technical psuedo-babble is an insult to their intelligence. I assume my reader is interested in finding out what I may have to say and not going to be overly impressed if I try to conceal my meaning in convulted sentence structures that lead them no where but into confusion. To me, and only to me, writing is the art of trying to achieve a moment of pure, crystal clear meaning. And so I stick with my plain words that impress no one. I'm not trying to be impressive. I'm not pretending I'm teacher and that I am more intelligent than anyone. I'm not. I'm the idiot in the corner. And all I ever wanted was to write one sentence so clear that it rang with the sound of truth inside the reader's mind like a crystal bell in the still morning. That's all. But that's just me.

dialyn - "to write one sentence so clear that it rang with the sound of truth inside the reader's mind" Well, with that one, you come pretty close. And you say you're not a poet. Regarding, "writing is the art of trying to achieve a moment of pure, crystal clear meaning," sometimes that takes precisely the right word. I think ChuckEvans has made some pretty good points above. I agree that word choice needs to depend on the audience, the characters in the story, and one's purpose for reading, especially whether it is for entertainment or education. I try to mix the two at once, personally.

"I try to mix the two at once, personally." Yeah, nothing wrong with trying to expose the audience to SOME new words, right? (smile)

For me writing is about story. Plot, Character, Setting and Mood... That kind of stuff. Truth is less of interest to me than realism, but in order to make the unreal feel real, you have to base it on some kind of truth... which sort of circles us around to the what dialyn said, hunh? That "single sentance" thingy, though... it sounds like it might be about right for poetry, but for a novel wouldn't general excellence be of more use than one point of perfection, amid 100 000 words of otherstuff?

What do I really want from a book? I'm not looking to carry every line of every book around in my head forever. What I'm after is that ONE fabulous bit in a book, the bit that stays with you. The one bit that you always remember and tell other people about or judge other similar situations against in other books. That crystal clear sentence/paragraph (that Dialyn mentioned) is the one that takes the book from being a 'one night stand' to a brief but intense affair, still memorable years later. If theres more than one of these truly amazing bits, then I'll even consider a place on my special bookshelf :-) The one for my long term books. Just because you wrote the whole book trying to achieve it, doesn't mean you always succeed. Those are the lines everyone wants to write, surely? The ones that get remembered? The ones that really engage the reader. All the rest is just window dressing, it still needs to be good, but really, who's going to remember it all ten years later? Even if it's got no words lol As for the vocab hurdles some authors like to scatter throughout their work. In my opinion it just depends. Leave them all out in a story about a forensic scientist and you will be insulting your reader (never mind struggling to write the thing) Put them all in and he'll probably leave by page 10. It's just a matter of striking the right balance. If I have to reach for a dictionary more than once a chapter, I will either feel stupid or annoyed. If it's page by page I'll stop reading, unless it's a textbook. Shanna :-)

Hmm... Generally, the only time I remember the words in a novel, is when the author includs poetry. What I usually remember from books is the meaning that is conveyed, and not the words that were used. Which is kind of interesting, now that I think about it. I can quote bits of my favortie movies, plays, and poems... but not usually my favorite books. Curious.

Sorry, I keep having to hose down the OT Forum. I swear, at this rate, it's going to be a swimming pool! :( dialyn - I have to agree with Chuck - you're a natural at dialogue. I could hear these two people talking to each other as if I was eavesdropping in real life. I think a bit more description and action in some places would top the story off. Because most of the dialogue is short (and it should be), the story seems hurried. Breaking up chunks of dialogue with a longer paragraph with dialogue and a touch of description (or action) would slow it down and give the reader more visual cues to go with the great dialogue. I know, a lot of times it seems like a scene only wants to be dialogue or action, but putting a mix, even if it's 80/20, makes it easier on the reader and more interesting. jgeorge - Your story definitely falls under confrontation. It's a clever little story, and definitely one that we face as writers. (I've read some books that say if the character won't do an action, re-write the character. Others say that the character is trying to tell you something, so you should rework the scene.) Like I told dialyn, I'd suggest a little more description with the dialogue. In your case, it would help the flow and it would make the story a little longer. I wasn't sure whether or not the conflict was ended. Was the writer going to change the scene or was the writer going to force Susanna into the original actions? A few more lines of dialogue would have helped me figure it out. jstro did a great job smoothing out the small language differences, so I won't repeat his work. mysteri - Yes and No. You can keep the actions and dialogue together in one paragraph. You can also break it up if the dialogue starts going in a different direction. "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, there was a spoiled teenager with the typical teenage angst," George read from the book. "And when his family was brutally murdered, he ran away from home and embarked upon a saga that would change a galaxy .... "But you said science fiction stories don't sell, so I won't waste your time with this." Note the lack of " marks at the end of the first dialogue block. It indicates that the next block is from the same person. It's not the best example in the world of shifting dialogue, but it's all I can do during my latest sleep deprevation experiment. ;-) Cheers!