This thread was most enjoyable. I must come here more often! Marc.

To paragon5:

• Why should Christians not look at nudity?
• Why should fractals not contain nudity? Please take a look at dreampaint's wonderful creations...
• And how do you decide "what is right"? And why shall this be automatically right for others?

For me nudity is not equal to porn, even in non-european standards...

Personally, I don't have a problem with nudity per se, but I do tire of the typical poser porn: meaning images generated by horny idiots who get their rocks off by undressing poser women and objectifying them for their own sexual gratification on a public board. Oh, but it's ART. Yeah, right. Just be sure to zip up before mom comes in your room. Plastic-looking Barbi doll type of images say to me that the person has only one goal in mind. Take someone like Rosemary, who uses poser to represent real people in fractal-based art. THAT, to me, is a person mastering their artistic tools of choice, not their own joystick. So to me, I won't say that Lisa's image evoked that exactly (though she was sure to include a breast in the thumbnail, which lead me to believe she did that for the 'hit' value), just that it was amateurish art, in my opinion. The fact that it is amateurish isn't a bad thing -- after all, we all have to start somewhere, right? But then don't be an obnoxious know-it-all when someone comments upon your work. Anyone can make a generic frame like she did -- there are filters for Photoshop and PaintShop Pro that do it automatically -- I don't consider it a feat to match the colors, even a child could do that (I know you're just trying to be positive, Rosemary, I just disagree about that g). Also, just what the heck is she saying? I meant it when I said that the Jesus doppleganger looks either like he needs to take his meds or he's having impure thoughts. Someone said maybe she's concerned about her sexuality and weight?? WTF? What weight? To me it all goes back to her behavior here, in this thread -- that is the problem really. Don't talk about how wonderful you are -- an award-winning artist -- and turn out trite, amateurish crapola that first-year graphics students would be embarrassed of. And Kindergartner, no one here is fighting; we are having an adult discusssion. Run along, now and let the grownups chat.

ahum ... that ain't a poser image ... that's an image taken from some place off the internet, which has their copyrights allready ... so either she does something to show some real ART, created by her own hand or she butts out ...

Can someone please explain to me what the following mean. ROFLMFAOWTIME WTF LMFAOWTIME LMAO

roll over floor laugh my f(-word) a(butt) off with tears in my eyes what the f(-word) the rest of the abbreviations are found above tried to put no nudity in my words LOL

To abmlober: 1.My belief is, a Christian is supposed to be living a "Holy" life. That doesn't include nudity or porn! 2. Fractals are Mathematical equations, right? What has that got to do with nudity? I went to dreampaints gallery, since July 1, 2003,certainly there was some mild nudity, but here's the kicker, none of them were posted in the fractal gallery! They were posted in different galleries! 3. It's not up for me to decide whether nudity in fractals is wrong or right, I'm just voicing my opinion and I'm probably in the minority now anyway. But that's alright! It's not even for me to say nudity or porn is wrong for you or any of the others, that's between you and God and them and God. For me and William it is wrong! Everyone has the freedom of speech and a right to their opinions, you have yours and I have mine! And that's the way I'm leaving it! I'm not bashing anyone, I hope you understand my point. Vicky

~blinks a few times after reading and seeing the picture~ uhmmmmm 1-I have added a few things to the fractal lot..nothing great {as for peapods flowers they are amazing} and I find that the people here are indeed generally friendly. and helpful at that. if you ask someone something they generally will try and help you or point you in the right direction. 2-poser art is what I have been doing heavily now for a few months and I have found THEM to be the same rather friendly lot and helpful. 3-the image in question..well...I as a person am not fond of it. 4-as for the whole bashing ~shakes her head~ just because one person didnt like your work you go and start bashing the whole group? Everybody in here as their likes and dislikes...I personally think pea has TREMENDOUSE talent I mean .....fractals are not easy to begin with not the good ones anyway and hers are amazing it is like TT they are just amazing and beautiful they invite you to look and journey through them...to delve into the hues and variances the shading and depths that make them almost touchable. the light that gives a shimmer qualtiy to them. they invite your eye to linger. How anyone could say that it is with out talent...is beyond me and anyone that has been in art long enough to win awards knows that rejection and critism is part of the art world. period. I am floored by this persons response to it all. to shout that people are all jealouse and without talent is just.....amazing to me. If you wish to travel in the art world you have to be prepared for...some thorns in your soul..so to speak. ~chuckles~

ohh and ...erm... not all poser nudes are done by horny people... ~blinks~ I do alot of nudes ..both in poser and in traditional mediums and I am not horny not some perv. {also female} I do it because I find the form amazingly beautiful.

I didn't read all the way down here, but if it's any comfort you'll be all getting few extra "hits" after this topic.. Not from me though, that'd make my own gallery look less popular :)

Hi Andreas and anyone else who cares to read this. I will attempt to address your questions from my own perspective as a Christian..and an LDS (Mormon) Christian: "* Why should Christians not look at nudity?" Our Lord and Savior taught that those who opt to "follow Him" ought to be modest in word, dress and deed..and that we need to resist impure thoughts. (I can provide scriptural references, if you would like me to) Now, there are those of us, Christian and otherwise- espeically youngsters (relatively speaking..anyone under the age of 50, IMO ;), who would argue that "Art" is art and noone should be inclined to censor or censure for any reason- not for nudity, violence or whatever the artist feels to express. I happen to agree; however, with expression comes responsibilty for what we've expressed and public expression opens us up to the diferring opinions and critiques of others. In fact, we ask for these opinions via the comment box here at R'osity. There was a time I was far afield from any kind of religion or spirituality..when I had decided that guilt would no longer play a role in what I perceived to be a formerly restrictive and limited lifestyle. I fancied myself an artist and felt that I deserved the freedom to do whatever I would. I was, after all, a free agent..and an artist, to boot. What a bunch of cow patooties. Each of us who calls ourselves "Christian"- no matter our denomination or sect, believes or professes to believe that Christ has ransomed us- that is, He's bought us with His blood. We still have moral agency, but we are His..and have taken up our collective cross..to follow Him. So. Unless we are "cafeteria Christians", it would follow that we would deny ourselves of all ungodliness and try to emulate the example He set for us. "* Why should fractals not contain nudity? Please take a look at dreampaint's wonderful creations..." Dreampaint and Longrider (and CI- Matt..but he doesn't incorporate nudity into his work) are among my favorite fractal and mixed medium artists. I love there work. But, when I see that nudity is part of there presentation, I don't look any further and don't comment ordinarily. Not because I think it cheapens their work, but because I've made a personal promise to myself and God to not look at anything that would cause my mind to wander into what is, for me, murky waters..because I- maybe unlike you, not only find the human form beautiful..even some Poser forms..but also are sexually stimulated by such artforms. "* And how do you decide "what is right"? And why shall this be automatically right for others?" "What is right" was decided long ago by someone far greater than I. And, you're right I haven't the right to decide for you..but I have the responsibilty to be true to what I believe in. "For me nudity is not equal to porn, even in non-european standards..." An age-old debate..that won't stop being debatable, regardless of what is or isn't written in this forum. Re Lisa: I have nothing to say in defense of or against this individual. I will say that, IMO, we ought to be thankful for the freedom we have to express ourselves in this forum- both in written and visual form..and try to be tolerant of one another's point of view..without getting ugly.

I think I might have a clue that not all poser nudes are done by horney people -- come on. I never said that, anyway. Some of these awful poser renders you just know are done by guys (and they're not all of women, either), who are doing the quasi-grownup, sexualized version of playing with dolls, or playing with Color Forms (do you know what those are?). Additionally, I admit a personal bias against poser, for several reasons. First, I think that unless the artist has actual talent, poser just always looks like poser and it is ugly in its phoniness. There are unnatural bends at the hip and knee, for one thing, and that doesn't even begin to address skin texture and tone. As someone whose area of concentration in fine art is life drawing, which is drawing the undraped figure, I am sensitive to those issues of phoniness; it also means I'm not necessarily against nudes, so it's not that; but so much of the poser gallery is nothing but a T&A fest, where almost all of the women look like they've had plastic surgery and are strippers. Second, Most of these poser women are just cookie cutter examples of totally unrealistic female bodies that only perpetuate the problem of making women feel inadequate and awful about their bodies. Is poser to fault for eating disorders? No, but it's just one more thing, in a list of things, that portray this ideal that is functionally unattainable for most women. Third, so much poser stuff is just crappy, trite 'art.' Yeah, I know I may get blasted for this, but it's my opinon. If you look at something like this: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=467672&Start=1&Sectionid=1&filter_genre_id=0&BestRanking=Yes You can see that the person really is an artist and that poser is his tool of choice for that kind of work. Or this guy: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=43198&Start=109&Sectionid=1&filter_genre_id=0&MostWanted=Yes He doesn't just do plastic, naked women. Artistically, he is more than a one-note musician. Anyway, it still all goes back to how we were treated in this forum, and were Lisa not to have acted the way she did, I'd have just left it at my original comment in the gallery.

ok I cannot help but post on the christian thing and nudity... I am sorry my mother studied theology in college I have done aloooooooooooooooot of studying. and I am sorry how does nudity equate to unpure thoughts? you are pure in your undressed state..you are as god created you..you are as open and unconcealed as you are gonna get. and I hate to say it but I think god can see beneath clothing too. so again nudity does not equate unpure thoughts...heck there are some that get unpure thoughts from looking at animals I dont see those being looked down on{trust me folks in the news in st louis missouri there has been a story going on about a guy and a horse it is just really...ackkkkkkk} Unpure thoughts stem from the thinker..not the view. it is from the person not the art. besides last time I checked sex is not unpure. if it was then there would be no children. after all sex is very much needed for that. God said go forth and populate..well that requires sex and sexual feelings. that to me is not unpure. purity of thought can mean a varied of things to a stone solid belief that if you believe jesus died to save our souls you will be forgiven to the idea that if you simply go to confession on sunday you are forgiven and have no strikes against you. personally after doing alot of studying on religions...I can not say which is the right or wrong. I have -my- beliefs. I am responsable for -my- beliefs. {just as to me the whole farce of the crusades is alittle hypocritical as NO WHERE did it state go and force people to be the religion you believe is right and if they do not then forget the ten commandments and go kill the suckers} THAT was seen as being very pure and very christian I believe it was a total joke. Nudity is not impure. not by any standard of the bible. after all adam and eve{and if you believe in lilith} were nude till they messed up. they were in the presence of god in the garden and they were as naked as jay birds...I dont think God has a problem with it. it was only after the sin of them not listening to his small request to not eat his fruit that they were ashamed.THAT seems to be an unpure thought ..to go against the words of God not the nudity

P.S. I ment the animals geting looked down on not the people ~shakes her head~ Also I do agree there are renders that are just...dressed up barbies. BUT if you tweek and you postwork you can get a good picture there are some that are ...amazing just flat out amazing But I DO understand what you are talking about in the plastic feel of it.

Is this thread ever going to stop?!? I can't believe it's gone on this long... Ok, my last thoughts on the whole thing are... 1. On the religious tangent that has cropped up...I'm not a religious person myself but I respect other peoples beliefs. If they choose not to look at certain images then that is their right and I have no problem with that at all. 2. On my original posting in this thread...It was simply my way of trying to put across that sometimes saying nothing is the best thing. In Fractal_Freak's original posting she appears to have a go at everyone that "didn't" comment on her image as well as those that did. So, I responded by telling her exactly what happened when I looked at it...It may be slightly crude but it also happens to be the truth. Would she rather have that or silence? 3. On the image in question...It says underneath the image "I would love to hear comments". It doesn't say "I would love to hear GOOD comments that pander to my self-image of greatness". There is a lesson for everyone here...Be careful what you ask for, you may just get it. Matt.

What an interesting thread. I am really glad I made that comment to Lisa's image now, because if I hadn't we wouldn't be having this wonderful conversation. Never before have I been moved to read this forum more than once in a blue moon. Thanks to everyone who threw their hats into the ring. I love getting to know the wonderful people behind the beautiful art I look at every day. :)

Dark Elegance, I just wanted to publicly thank you for the lovely comments you made about my work. You really made me feel good, I am very appreciative of what you wrote. Thanks so very much. :)

I don't think it's a question of whether or not nudity belongs in fractals. If you want to combine nudity with fractal art, rock on. I think that, in the world of art, anything goes. Yes, even Lisa's brand of expression. Certainly some purists have accused me of not being a "real" fractalist because I change most of my fractals so dramatically after rendering them. We all have different visions and different tools, and it doesn't matter what they are.

However, like Tina, I, too, am tired of these badly rendered plastic-looking Poser women, all out of a Stepford nightmare, churned out by the thousands, contributing to real women feeling lousy about themselves and their own bodies. I also tire of sexualizing and cheapening religion and the Christ figure in art; having been born and raised in New York City this is hardly something I've never seen before, it's really a clich There are people who have done it a lot better.

Like someone else said, it was Lisa's petulant reaction and "I dare you" tantrums that created the negative feelings in this community...way more than her art ever could or would.

To change the topic, I would love it if all of you stopped by my discussion board...we have some dedicated fractalists over there, and we're having some fun challenges and round robins. You can post your work, too by linking to it online. No ratings, no hit counting, no competing, just a lot of fun and fractals and talk.

Also, I don't know if all of you know this, but Tina and I run the Fractal Artists' Ring, a web ring of 116 websites (and growing) dedicated to the art of fractals, and we also have contests, screensaver projects and a lot of fun. Here are the URLS to both places, and I would be honored if you guys stopped by/joined up.

Discussion Board: http://www.peapoddesign.net/cgi-bin/boards/main/main.pl

Fractal Artists' Ring:
http://www.tcdesign.net/fractalpp_webring.htm

You're a very special group of people and I am privileged to know you all. :)

Mindy (Peapodgrrl)

Hello! Did anyone think about this whole story as a provocation from the start? What we have here? A person with just one image in her/his(I doubt Lisa Hammel is real name) gallery.We have no other information. And nickname:Fracktal freak.It is a statement. I would not be suprize if someone from this fractal community did it.Just for fun :).Maybe Deagol?Hello how about me??? :) We see in fractal community all kind of images,some excellent ,some not,but I do not remember any so negative comments about other images. I think problem with this images is that it should not be placed under fractal gallery.It has more Poser,or mixed medium or 2D look. But this is one more reason that I see this whole thing as a provocation. Greetings...........Wojtek............

Yes Lisa Hammel is my REAL NAME!!!! Lisa Anne Hammel to be exact!!! I was born in Ivoryton CT and I have two brothers and one sister and my father is a cop and my mother is a substitute teacher!!!!! what else do you crazy people want to snoop around and learn about me???? Want a blood sample????? My social security number??????? I think you are a bunch of loosers!!!! I am never coming back to this horrible place!!!!! IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To put it not-so-delicately, Lisa: Bye! Don't let the door hit'cha where the good Lord split'cha! Anyway, if nothing else, it's been an interesting conversation, mostly. lol

sob I will miss her.

Gotta say that the way this has played off, maybe Wojtek is right.

was that a real response from her? Can we say she needs to lay off the caffine

Doing some research: Author = Simpson, Tommy. Title = Hand and Home : The homes of american craftsmen / text by Tommy Simpson, with Lisa Hammel; photographs by Tommy Simpson, with Lisa Hammel; photographs by William Bennett Seitz; Foreword by Lisa Hammel. This is an exquisite book full of inspirational ideas for bringing art in to the home. The book showcases the homes of famous American craftsmen. Each home is a signature of the craftsmen's artistry and vision for living. The styles vary from minimalist to folksy to art nouveau. This book makes a perfect gift for those artistically inclined or for those looking for creative ideas when designing their home. If ya look for that name, you'll find Lisa Simpson too LOL Another one: Lisa Hammel, "Drawn to the Surface: Artists in Clay and Glass," Pittsburgh Center for the Arts, Pittsburgh, PA, 1988. Maybe this is Lisa Hammel? http://www.dkdigital.com/annasilver/Articles/NYT.htm Or this? http://www.worldandi.com/specialreport/1990/february/Sa17200.htm Nah ... don't think so .. otoh ... the name is not so very common, but would have expected more professionalism in her/his remarks Anyways, is this thread over now? Or are we starting a new one about christianity, nudism .. because all is very interesting...

It has just come to my attention that Lisa Hammel is a member of a large Al Qaeda cell operating out of Passaic, New Jersey. Using Poser images as a way of secret communication on the internet, each thorn in the image was imbedded with coded instructions for other worldwide Al Qaeda members to follow. "Thorns in My Soul" referred to a cell operation to kidnap Rosie O'Donnell (Thorn = Rosie) for ransom money to fund their US operations. The plan was scrapped at the last minute when it was decided that nobody would care about the kidnapping enough to pay ransom. John Aschroft will have a press conference about it this afternoon. I, for one, will make sure I watch.

Now that was just mean.

Oh for crying out loud. It was meant as humor, not meanness. Do you see gargoyles under the bed, too? Know what was mean? Her remarks to everyone here. Why didn't you take issue with that? People like you, who look for things to complain about, make my participation in forums more and more infrequent.

LOL!! Pay no attention to the humorless, Min.

If it was an insult to anyone, it was to Rosie O'Donnell...who, as far as I know, doesn't post here.

Hey, you never know -- she could actually be using the pen name of Lisa Himmell, or whatever it is. :)

@peapodgrrl In defense of my statement post 76. I would like to quote you. "Ours is a politically correct world gone mad. We fearfully use tepid euphemisms to describe everything from blindness ("sight challenged") to job descriptions ("sanitation consultant"); we are so afraid of "offending" others that we couch our words in meaningless pablum and false niceties that succeed in neutering any meaningful communication. God forbid anybody is forced to hear even a scintilla of truth; no honest expression is allowed lest they become "offended" by someone with the temerity to gasp express an honest thought. You see forty some odd posts in this thread because you are watching human expression and candor in action--the enthusiasm for an honest exchange of opinions is evident in its length. Look how the dam bursts when phony politesse is exchanged for real discourse. When you go to a public discussion forum or community and actively solicit commentary, you'd better be prepared for feedback." I simply stated my opinion on post 75. Bummer you were offended by that. Please clarify the gargoyles under the bed, too? As for taking issue with what she said. I don't really need to cause 1 if I did it would be rehassing what every one else has said and. 2 her tone and statemtes were echoed before and after she made them.

Hey people, did you start using internet so late you didn't hear about "net etiquette"? You must already master the common search engines, so just copy paste the two words between the quotation marks and go.. And since when was Renderosity just for artists? I've never been to a museum nor considered myself as an artist - I try model stuff. (yes stuff, don't suffocate in your French bread!) So can't we all drawers, modelers, artists and photographers etc. fit here.. Hope we do, thank you!

I wasn't offended; I was annoyed, like I get annoyed by gnats and midges. Nor would I wish to censor you; like you, I just reacted to what I read. The gargoyle remark meant you looked for something (meanness) that was not there.

smile

I was, when I wrote my Al Qaeda post. But you took care of that. :)

Bummer sorry to hear that.

ok, you are right. renderosity is not only for artists. but no one here has a problem with the posting from fraktal_freak. SHE seems to have a problem with having feedback! i will miss her too, because i would like to see more of her collages... just to find out where she get the images from that she uses without any credits. because i have the impression that the background fractal is not rendered by her, also the other picures she used look like picked up somewhere from the internet. and i would like to see if all her images can reach the top of the top twenty with this "flaming" method. it's a very interesting psychological phenomene here... ;-) i think wojtek is right. the whole thing here is just a method to get attention. and i bet she still follows this discussion because THIS is what lisa wants - to get attention! we all know since the kindergarten that FRIENDSHIP is nothing one can get with shouting and stamp! this is the subject, and not if the gallery is only for artists. if you read the rules from renderosity you can find that we all agreed not to post someone elses work and not to "spite" to eachother. now look at this story here - was it a test??? we all took the lure and our reactions are like expected. did you notice?

sorry, this posting was for dobbelcheese

I'd have problems having feedback also if someone said something bright like "this isn't even art".. ain't art - if anything - in they eye of the beholder? So corny, so true thinks DC. I just wonder why do people check out pics they clearly don't want to see? "Thorns In My Soul" thumbnail clearly indicates there's a half-naked woman in it. If that ALONE is out of line, stop. You either check it out or you don't and you either like it or not. I agree maybe fractal gallery wasn't the best place uploading it. I also wouldn't like to hear my images been badly rendered unless one had suggestions for improvement.

you are still right. BUT the attack came from fraktal_freak herself against those people (like me also) who looked at her image and did NOT comment. ok, honestly i did not comment because i don't like the image. and my suggestion for improvement of the reactions you can read in my posting some hundreths above this one ;-). i just think this is not the right way to get sympathies, that's all. if everyone would act this way, post an image and shout around that everybody MUST write comments, and then complain if the comments are just honestly and not only applause, this could be the pure chaos! because there are thousands of very good works that deserve much more attention than this one became with just shouting around. i think it's a pity that human reactions are so. it's a pity that this kind of provocation is such successful in our community! she got 8 votes in the hot twenties! so i don't understand what her problem is. there are hundreths of images who are hundred time better than this one! but i think if one wants to be a good artist, then it is still necessary (like in the "real life" too) to give much more real OWN work on the product - that shows! this is my suggestion for the improvement of the image @ fraktal_freak: get a fractal program and make your OWN work, make it as good as you can, take enough time to do this until the result is beautiful and not pixelated or kitschy, and believe in the good in the people who try to understand what you want to say with your image. and if you want to get love and sympathy you cannot do this with thorns of hate in your soul and in your words! everything you give from yourself to this world comes back to you somehow sometime. this was my suggestion from the beginning on. i do not mean it to offend, just for help, and it's my honest opinion, not more.

I didn't even see your posts Sophie, but I had the impression everything started from the 2nd comment.. if someone has problem NOT getting comments, well you can always go into chat and do some spamming.. or after seeing some great galleries here with only 2 comments realize - everyone else is just speechless!! :)

The image was obviously a set up and it worked. It's a poor fractal image and yet it has 8 votes in the fractal hot 20. That doesn't make any sense. The freak's reaction says it all. It's very insecure and immature, not what you would expect from a master artist. We have been manipulated, but it has been interesting.

.. or after seeing some great galleries here with only 2 comments realize - everyone else is just speechless!! :) This could be so, Dobblecheese, but in many ways this place is also a sort of popularity contest, and if you are not popular, many times your work doesn't receive comments. There are more than a few people who have left this place because of a perceived cliquish feel here. Some people will only remark on the works of certain people, even if those works are entirely unremarkable, while other -- far better -- works go unremarked just because they aren't by popular posters. Anyway, I think all of those things and more feed into that. I've got to tell you that your rendering of the snare drum is marvelous -- particularly the chrome bits. I started playing around with 3D Studio and then Studio Max, but I discovered that I hate vertices and kept to fractals and digital art. :)

And the 8 votes came in that early too? Ok, I didn't know that either.. sounds amazing for a Poser character in the fractal forum, I don't know. FractalGrrl, thanks. Didn't it cross your mind while typing that comment that maybe this was teamwork all the way, but I managed to get just one comment instead of couple of hundred? No, thanks really.. ;)

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ladynimue