I generally avoid the forums because of the politics, the pettiness and the general back-biting nastiness that I have witnessed and have been subjected to in some ways. What brings me out of the quiet to step forward to protest? The endless amount of terminal b*tchiness that seems to be surrounding the upcoming model M3. Now I stood by while everyone and their dog told me Koshini was hideous, had the face of a toad, they wouldn't give a copy to their worst enemy, why don't I get a real job, and some comments that I will not repeat on a child accessable forum. I remember much the same song and dance over V3 and having to buy whole new clothes and so forth. I realize it is in the customer's right to not like a product, however there are several people here, and I am not pointing fingers, who have taken simple dislike to a level of vindictive nastiness that I would equate to an Anti-Abortion rally. Since when have the customers retained the right to tell the creators what they can and cannot do? I realize that it is impossible to satisfy everyone's wants with one product, however the continued nastiness directed at anyone who does like it or at the model itself is unwanted and unwarrented. So you don't like it.... And? Is it so difficult to say "I don't really like it so I won't get it"? There's a fundamental difference between expressing a constructive opinion and being a jerk at every given opportunity, trying to make the people that worked months on a project feel not only unappriciated but hated for their efforts. Please, could we just limit the nastiness? We don't log onto your threads advertising your new product and bust your chops repeatedly and abusively.... please, show us the same kindness.

Well said ...

Indeed. And true.

Very well said but a waste of time & effort imho. Whiners live to whine. There's an old saying "you can give a whiner exactly what they want but they'll still find something to whine about" ok it's probably not an old saying but it fits anyway :)

Well-said, and too true. And sadly may fall on deaf ears. Err... blind eyes? :) And Koshini is a total doll. :) And I will buy M3 as soon as he comes out. :)

Very well said littlefox. And I concur 100%.

Amen, sister, preach it! Lemme hear the choir sing! Ahem, sorry. I agree g

Counter point - If content creators do not listen to their customers or those that they wish to sell to the product won't sell, or won't sell as well. Bitching, complaining, and rants can lead to better products. Hopefully the positive outways the negative and a product will thrive and the majority of customers will be happy. I agree with the majority of what you have said. However I think the other side of the coin is just as important.

Very good and thanks for saying it.

very well said!!! i love your character and personally think she has the face of an angel :) as for mike 3,i don't think i will be getting him for a long time yet,but i sure won't be bitching and whining about him,people have different tastes and likes,mike 3 just isn't one of mine,maybe that will change,who knows,but the simple solution is if you don't like it,don't buy it.some people complain about anything,if they didn't have anything to complain about they would complain that there is nothing to complain about..lol if that makes sense ;)

Oh my, first I can't even believe that someone had the quote balls to say that to you regarding Koshini...and you are right everyone has the right to like or dislike a product but to be so rude regarding something that they don't like is just mean. You said it well girl and I am with you....and whomever said that nastyness....shame on you. Sharen

MachineClaw, if bitching, complaining and rants were rational and constructive, your comments might be true. Constructive criticism is helpful and does lead to better products just as you said., "I hate hate hate it!" And "It's an abomination cause it uses Vicki's mesh" are utterly unuseable criticism. In the last analysis, how many people buy Mike 3 and how well subsequent morph and clothing packs do will be better indicators of how good the product is. Count me with those who will reserve judgement until the whole package is seen-- and I can hardly wait-- yeah, I know, she said "package", snicker. Emily

So thrue what you like or don't like is personal I love Koshini and Ichiro i don't like LaRoo that much (yet) but shall never say anything nasty because it's not the modal that's bad it's just my personal taste nothing more and nothing less. Critics are fine if they are based on something and if they are getting to a point but just complain if you don't like anything is so stupid I need that to when i was about 3 or 4 years old LOL

I don't think whining and complaining are very useful, nor are they meant to be...it's especially silly when it is about a product that hasn't been released yet so there's no way to really discuss it rationally. Constructive criticism, where you are offering ways to improve the product, is far different than coming on the thread and saying things like "Koshini is ugly" or "Judy is an alien." That's just not productive, and it gets old after the first thirty or fifty times the same person posts it over and over and over again. If you don't want Koshini or Judy or Mike 3, then don't buy or use them. No one is forcing anyone else to look at them, buy them, or put them into a graphic. Belittling a product someone else is enjoying really says nothing about that product but everything about the character of the person who is doing the whining.

When I learned that Mike 3 will have the same injection system as V3 I decided then and there that I wouldn't waste my money on him. I haven't used V3 for anything, probably never will, simply because the inj business is just way too much work and way too time consuming when it comes to trying to make any sort of characters. I'll stick with V2 and Roxanne. And in the case of Mike, M2 and Boris. Don't need any fancy schmancy M3 when those guys do everything I need them to do. Now, having said that, I agree that there is simply no need to get nasty about any of this. When all that hoo-rah was going on about the "M3 Ads in the Poser Forum" I kept my mouth shut, but to tell the truth, I was glad to see them moved. That way I didn't have to wade past them to find what I really wanted to read (and face it, some of them got pretty long and required much use of the scroll button to get past, and yes, I'm lazy g) but even though I would be a happy woman if I never saw another M3 post, I'm not going to whine and moan about it. That's also a waste of time and effort that could be better spent doing something productive. Let's face it, some people in this world are simply not happy unless they're complaining about something - and it doesn't matter what - as long as they can find a reason to complain, they will. Seriously, some of these people would complain about the color of the sky (I know this - I have a brother who is one of those people). Best advice - ignore them completely. They won't go away, but life is a lot nicer if you aren't hearing them all the time. :) As for those who resort to private messages and e-mails castigating the creators for their creations, well, they're just plain out and out assholes and morons and don't deserve the time of day, In my NOT Humble Opinion. Kate (who occasionally bitches and moans about stuff, but tries to do it in a good natured sort of way)

I guess I was a bit unclear. Koshini as an example, there were several people that whined, complained what have you that Koshini had cartoon hands and not 5 fingers. Now, it could be that adding another finger could have increased sales had thecreator chosen to listen to those people. not how it worked out, no biggy that's where a content creator decides what and who his or her market is, but I hope you can see this point. People complained that Judy when released with Poser 5 looked like an alien, and a lot of people worked and released freebies to counter this claim, but the comments got people thinking, and produced addons to counter the claim which made for a better product. I understand the constant doomsayers, or whiners, complainers, whatever your choice in calling them is, gets rather old and tiresome. My point is sometimes this helps. Yin and yang. 2 sides to the coin was where I was coming from. BTW I own Koshini, Icky (spelling sorry), Laroo, M2, V2, V3 and a ton of other character models and will probably buy M3. Least someone think that I have an agenda or something. The diversity of the community and the negative, as well as the positive helps the community, as long as it falls withing the rules of a site or TOS. Whining about whiners could be just as unconstructive as your point about whiners (okay that hurt my brain).

I just don't get it - there are models out there that I don't care for, but that doesn't mean they're not well done or someone hasn't put a ton of imagination and work into them - it's just personal taste. Result? I don't buy them - but I would never dream of tearing them apart on the forums, especially to their creators. I just don't get the effort some folk put into negativity (not just here on the forums, but in real life as well). It's beyond me. All those posts that are spent just gripping about something I usually just skip over pretty quickly. As for specific gripes about Koshini and Ichiro, ignore them - Personally I think they and all their clothing packs are the best thing that's happened to my computer since I bought poser4. Constructive critsicm is one thing but telling someone they're ugly and they stink? that's just mean spirited. Thank you very much Littlefox, from the bottom of my heart for creating them and sharing them with the rest of us. Just try to ignore the blue meanies. Rob :)

I agree that the vehemence some show toward these 3D models is scary. As for Koshini, I have fallen in love with her. She has proven to be one of the most enjoyable characters I have purchased. Every time I play with her I am delighted at the character she exudes in her toony way. :) Beth

Thankyou. i love seeing the previews whether i like or want the product. Its kind of like window shopping its fun. I dont understand people arguing about having fun seeing if you can morph a model into something else, except it was obvious they had issues that had nothing to do with this forum. Please dont stop previews I look at everybody's thats the fun of this forum. Theres lots of stuff i look at but dont buy.

Constructive criticism should and generally is well received by content creators, on the other hand plain ill-mannered and insulting comments do nothing to motivate the content creators to change their product or to want to make new ones. Making stuff for Poser is first and foremost (for me anyways) a labour of love, not easy, time consuming and very often amazingly frustrating, you must never loose sight of the fact that you can never please everyone. This is why there is variety, choose what you like and simply ignore the rest.

ps (let me take a second to whine about cross posts) ;) Point well taken machine claw, but what about all of us who LIKE having a 3 fingered Koshini. you can't please everyone all the time but you can please someone some of the time while fooling no one none of the time... hmmm, seem to have lost my train of thought there somewhere. : ) oh, wait, here it is - sometimes you just have to please yourself. It's not always about selling a ton of product - heck, Brittney Spears sells a ton of product, that doesn't mean it's art (and no, I am not knocking Brittney, just borrowing her to make a point, okay? :) Point is, the creator has to be true to their vision sometimes, regardless of "the market". Anyway, just a good natured reply. : ) Rob

Bitching is a more specific way of providing feedback to the vendor ... the other way is what the market says. Either INJ/V3/M3 sell or they don't. If they do, the next question is what the market says how viable the older versions should be supported. So far, I haven't seen fit to invest a lot in the "3's" until I can get the same flexibility I have now with the "2's" in terms of clothes and range of characters. Plus a more powerful computer to handle the more complex meshes. I still use P4 characters as background and supporting characters for which the higher resolutions aren't needed/

Well said! M3 isn't even out there yet so how can anyone have a well founded opinion on it, except for the beta-testers? If it turns out that something doesn't work as advertised that's something else and even then with really complex models the creators ought to be given some slack, as long as they get it right and get it fixed. There will always be a need for yet more realism and more versatility because once it is out there it becomes the new standard and people get used to new standards of excellence fast. Keep up the good work, you guys at DAZ! I love ya!

Although griping and complaining goes back to before the internet was popular, I think the current wave of bitching in this forum started with the bloodletting over Poser 5, a reaction which I thought was way over the top and unneccessary. It brought a small-minded nastiness into the forum which I don't think has ever left. Now it's common to bash every new product sight unseen - and even rant against merchants in general, as evidenced by the recent furor over showcasing products in this forum. I said at the time and I'll say it again: this kind of nasty, childish whining mustn't be tolerated at all -- I don't care how justified the complaint might be. Criticising is okay, but the incessant bad-mouthing, complaining and ranting has to go. Some months ago, a brilliant figure creator brought a new female figure to the marketplace. When it was discovered that the creator had (in all innocence) used the P4 woman's body mesh as a starting point (incorrectly assuming it to be in the public domain), you'd have thought he personally walked into every member's home and deliberately murdered their pet cat! The crowd was ready to lynch him. Today that is all forgotten, and that creator's company provides some of the best figures for Poser in the Marketplace. Half of you probably buy figures from that creator without even realizing that this forum almost banned him out of existence! I suppose it was time for the pendulum of nastiness to swing even in Daz's direction. With no fresh meat to chew on, the whiners have slowly begun to turn their vicious claws on Daz. I think the ranting against M3 is just the beginning. Watch how quickly these whiners (many of whom are former Daz worshipers) rip Daz Studio to shreds by the time it finally arrives. Nasty whining begets more whining. If we're going to ban anything here, let's ban THAT. If we're going to suppress free speech, we might as well go all the way. I'd rather see bitchy complaining banned on this forum than product annoucements. -jjsemp

There are rules and a TOS to take care of situations that are out of line. And Moderators for enforcement. If free speech and suppression of ideas comes what's the point. I certainly do not want to live in a Brave New World chewing my happy no feeling pills. The diversity is what makes it a community.

One can express an opinion without being nasty about it. "I think the face of the new character needs a stronger chin," is different from "that new character has a monkey face and I bet the modeler does too." Free speech doesn't mean you have to throw mud at everyone just because you are standing in it.

LOL. Very true. However that would be a TOS violation and could be delt with within the rules established by the site. But saying that a model, texture, item, or software sucks is well within someones right, even if it may not be considered 'constructive'.

Making stuff for Poser is first and foremost (for me anyways) a labour of love, not easy, time consuming and very often amazingly frustrating, you must never loose sight of the fact that you can never please everyone. Here here. And the stuff I make is nowhere near the complexity of a mesh that can handle make and female characters, along with hundreds of morphs that will complete the transitions. Rather than complain about problems, it's not a bad idea to become part of the solution by creating it yourself. Chances are, you'll respect the work of others a heck of a lot more if you try it yourself.

Well, I've seen postings that were more of a character assault than a comment on the item. And wouldn't it be more productive to say what was wrong than to say something "sucks." Saying that there are seams in a texture that shouldn't be there tells the person who created the item what is wrong. It "sucks" says nothing except tells us something about the commenter's vocabulary, or lack of it. "I prefer four fingers to three," lets the person know that your comment is a personal preference and really has nothing to do with the quality of the model. It "sucks" says the person hasn't thought through their complaint.

duh make that MALE and female characters ....

"...............But saying that a model, texture, item, or software sucks is well within someones right, even if it may not be considered 'constructive'" This is true, but, Just because you have the right to do something, does not mean that it is right to do it.

"This is true, but, Just because you have the right to do something, does not mean that it is right to do it." HUH? That's the point of having a right to do it. Otherwise it would be wrong, and then it would not be allowed. I seem to be the lone voice that wants people to be able to whine and say what they want. I agree that "this sucks" is pretty uninformative and unconstructive, however I would fight for someones right to say it while the rules say that they can. Digressing into ethics and netediquette. I do try and point with examples when I have comments to make on a particular item or product, within my rights of the site I post on and TOSs. Sometimes one post just ain't enought to get the point across, I think I'll tune out now and go play with my sucky toys now :)

Machine Claw, I think notime6 was kind of saying that just because it isn't against the rules to "your mother is a fat slob" it still isn't right. That is a random example and something that is probably more real world than renderosity but it still isn't right. I do agree that comments are good but the random rants and whines that stay in place are just detrimental to everything but the person that is ranting and whining.

This quite note of protest got pretty loud. BTW I think that is my first post ever. I agree to littlefox and macbeth. We all are artists (except for me but that is another story) and the tools we use are named creativity and constructive criticism. If both are used in the right meaning we grow as artists as well as human beings. To all of you who whine and then whine some more: Grow up for Pete's sake! You don't like M3? Then don't buy him! You like him? You buy him! It really is that simple. If anyone has ideas how to improve the work of someone else go ahead and tell them. If you want to whine and complain and whine some more talk to the garbage can. "Why can't we work out our differences? Why can't we work things out? Poser people, why can't we all just get along?" (Altered quote, you know where it comes from.)

Well said, littlefox. The world is populated by a HUGE number of assholes and a certain number of nice people. So ignore the stupid ones and get along with the good ones. The larger the forum (Rosity is huge) the more the rubbish rises to the top and gets noticed/heard. On a small forum like faeriewylde, everybody treats each other decently. That's all there is to it. No, there's one more thing - reacting strongly to the nonsense justifies it. Ignore it and starve it out of existence. It's no fun to agitate if al you get is a big yawn. :] Fish

As a content creator I can tell you right now, the whiners and bitchers do NOT make any difference to my production of items. Those that DO, are the ones who politely give me constructive criticism, or nicely tell me what they'd like to see. I get may emails that contain no bitching and whining, with ideas on how to make exisiting things better and ideas for new items. These are the life force of my creative process. It may piss a few people off, but it'll be a cold day in Hades before I bow down to those select few whose panties are constantly in a bunch and find the smallest things to whine over and do so in the meanest, ugliest way they can. My life is simply too short to listen to that crap.

First off, well said, Littlefox...I applaud you. Second, people have often said I'm rather lucid and professional when addressing issues such as this, so...with that in mind, here's a little bit for both sides. I feel qualified to do this, because I am both a vendor, and a buyer. I've also spent several years in the Customer Support industry. I recommend that both sides of the fence read both portions...perhaps you'll gain a little insight, perhaps you'll think me an ass...but either way, maybe you'll think a little in a direction you may not have. ----- FOR THE VENDORS: Remember that humans are a tricky lot. You never know what's going to push their buttons, good or bad. All you can do is make educated guesses, or blind shots in the dark. Your job is to make a quality product, something you can be proud to offer, and something that at least someone out there thinks is a 'really neat thing'. Remember the adage "The Customer is Always Right". Then remember that that adage is complete and utter bull. The customer is never wrong, but the customer may be misinformed, may be misunderstanding something, or may be expecting too much. It is up to you, as the service provider, to try and politely bring the customer up to speed with the intent and direction of your product or service. Every businessman out there runs into the potential customer who simply cannot be satisfied. This is the nature of the game. Most of them will have attitudes to match. Also part of the game. One of the toughest things to achieve is to build a wall that those few cannot penetrate...to protect those buttons they they try to push. If they can't converse with you in a civil manner, they aren't worth wasting your valuable time with. Give them a polite dismissal, and get back to business. Remember it isn't the folks who badmouth your product without using it that matter as much as the people who are using your product, and the people who are genuinely interested in your product, and make it known through polite dialogue. These are your allies, and you want as many of them as you can get. ----- TO THE BUYERS: Remember that humans are a tricky lot. You never know what's going to push their buttons, good or bad. All you can do is make educated guesses, or blind shots in the dark. Your goal is to find a quality product, something you can be proud to own, and something that at least you think is a 'really neat thing'. Remember the adage "The Customer is Always Right". Then remember that that adage is complete and utter bull. Unless you created the product, or offer the service, you can't know everything about it, or how or why it exists. That's why you have a vendor to call on, to try and give you as much information as you want or need. Please understand that those vendors do their best to help everyone who asks, as completely as possible. Your time is important, so is thiers. Let them help, and listen to what they're offering. Every customer out there runs into the potential product that simply isn't what they want or need. This is the nature of the game. Giving the vendor a hard time about it won't change it. Ranting and whining won't change it. The product or service simply isn't what you're after. However, it may be perfect for someone else. Accept that it's not right for you, and continue your search for the product that is right for you. It's not worth bursting a blood vessel over. Remember that the vendors respond to constructive dialogue, delivered in a calm, civil manner, the same as you do. Harsh words, name-calling, and general bad manners will accomplish nothing in swaying a vendor to accomodate you. In fact, it tends to make them not do it, just because. If something can be done to make a product or service more desirable to you, ask for it. Politely. No one likes to be bossed around and told what to do, especially in their own turf. ----- Well, that's my 2-cents worth...actually, looks more like 10-cents worth...hope it doesn't sound too idiotic! CT

As A Koshini-addict (along with Ichiro now too) who actually did wonder at the number of fingers on their hands in the beginning which I admit with a lot of love toward the models and Littlefox!!!!....... and a new owner of Vicki3...that I thought I would never buy, I am glad I have just joined the Platinium Club at DAZ so that when I am READY to get Mike 3 I will... I will probably wait a bit for all the kinks to be worked out if there are any, like I did with vicki3, so I have the updated versions.... AND as a modeler myself... AND as a beta tester (though not of M3) I know how HARD it is to put out a new quality model..and how many times there is a "oh wait, I fixed this....and that..to make it even better" kind of thing... it's a long hard process that every creator goes through... !! I too enjoy seeing "previews" here, and come constantly to see how things are going... my ONLY compliant if you can call it that is that I wish that folks that post be a little more specific in the subject so I can, with my limited time, stop and read/view what interests me most. Lyne Lyne's Creations

LittleFox, your work is superb, and your opinion on this matter is equally so. Truly, if any person voicing a complaint was truly attempting to improve the product, the voicing would have been via a constructive e-mail to the author, not ranting in a public forum.

She's a special gal, that one 8-)

Y'know, I don't get what the problem is with Koshini having four fingers. She's obviously not meant to be an accurate representation of a human being. She's a 3d cartoon character. Four fingered hands are fairly common in cartoons. I love Koshini and Ichiro both enough that I've bought Koshini for someone so they could make items for her. The one thing I could wish for is some feline morphs and add-ons which seem to be planned to be made someday.