We got the forum, it's time to let loose! Posts that make direct Poser vs. D|S comparisons, such as rendering the same scene in both programs, are still okay here because the posts involve Poser as well as D|S. (We do allow Poser vs. Vue render comparisons, Poser vs. Bryce, etc. as well, so fair's fair.) Anything else, "How do I ... in D|S?" , "Here's what X looks like in D|S," etc. will be dropped kicked to the D|S Forum if posted elsewhere. Thanks! Cres

Hi, I would like to see the daz sudio and poser forum combined. I really think that eventually everyone here who uses poser will use daz studio as well. Like poser 4 and poser 5 questions go here. I would like to see daz studio questions together in same forum as daz studio, poser 4 and poser 5 all pose and the questions often relate. Love esther ps wait until eveyone has it if you like, but please strongly consider doing this, as I think this is the most popular forum and it would be easier.

I think this is a BAD idea! DAZ Studio represents a major future trend for Mike, Vicky, Steph. Where do these characters come from? NOT FROM "Poser", they're from DAZ! Everything from now on will be hugely important to most people who use characters that DAZ makes. These characters are NOT made by Curious Labs! I thought the DAZ Forum would be for newbies and others wandering in to specifically locate DAZ Studio info. Why not a Poser 5 ONLY forum? Force all Poser 5 posts there since, after all, Poser 5 is owned by a Japanese company that will be using it to promote Shade, and other 3D multimedia products. Poser 5 might even DISAPPEAR down the road- etc. Why not Force all Poser 4 Pro-Pack posts into a POSER 4 Pro-Pack Forum, etc., etc. This is a VERY BAD idea and makes NO SENSE!

Why? Daz Studio is not Poser, it doesn't work like Poser it doesn't even look like Poser the only thing it has in common is Daz because of the figures. Would you also suggest therefore that the Poser forum should incorporate the Bryce, Vue, Lightwave, Cinema and other forums just because they use Mike and Vickie? No, this is the Poser forum, as such it's for Poser related problems. Not endless "wow cool" or "look what I dun" Studio stuff. Nor is it here for endless Studio bug reports. Renderosity created a Poser Beta forum for Poser 5 when it was released in it's nightmarish form, so it seems perfectly reasonable to allow the Poser forum to continue in the same vein by creating a Daz Studio forum. The forum is for STUDIO, not Mike, Vickie and all the other virtual dollies.

D/S will not last long enough to make the above arguments relevent. Poser v A New Toy = no contest. DAZ should stick with what it does best: models to use within Poser, although of late there has been a noticable drop in the quality of some of their stuff.

But Questor, I think (after the initial beta questions about the actual software) the questions are mostly going to be the same sort of questions, about posing and characters for both programs DAZ studio and poser. About clothing and how characters look eg the steph petitie dialogue, you know like when a new character gets introduced. YOu see before daz studio poser was the only software that posed. Now there are two softwares that pose that I think will be used together by all the same people. I'd be very surprised if most people here don't embrace both softwares eventually. Love esther

Becco, I think it would be a shame if you're right. I think a similarly priced/placed pose and render app in competition with Poser will be beneficial to the users. As for the topic of the thread, I agree. This is the Poser forum. D|S stuff should go to the D|S forum.

And futhermore, why waste another person's time scrolling down DS related threads when for one reason or another they don't have DS?

I disagree estherau. For several reasons. Studio, if it makes it to full blown application will be, of necessity, considerably different to Poser. So posts regarding studio sections. Materials, path reference, and whatever plugins are designed for it will be vastly different to Poser. For instance, I would not dream of asking for help here for the Shave & Haircut plugin for Cinema, although it does pretty much the same thing as Poser's Hair Room. The reason being that it's vastly different (and far better). Studio is the same. It already is showing considerable differences to Poser and placing the two applications in the same forum will create problems. Studio being the newer application and still under the "wow cool" factor will flood this forum with posts that are utterly irrelevant to anything. It is totally unfair to Poser users, new and old, to expect them to wade through umpteen posts about something they either won't or aren't using and perhaps have no interest in. If future characters are introduced like Steph Petite, you'll find out about it in this forum just as fast as in the Studio forum. That forum is for STUDIO, not Daz figure/cloth/hair/texture releases. Those will for the foreseeable future still be poser based because that's where the majority of their user base is, and because Studio is still only test-ware. Embracing both softwares is neither here nor there. I use Poser, Bryce, Cinema4D and Rhino. Should I post ALL my questions in this forum just because they're "related" to Poser? Or because I use Poser figures? No, there are specific software related forums where I can get the answers I need for the software I'm using without having to wade through dozens of utterly irrelevant posts. I'm hardly unique in this so I don't think this is a bad move by Rosity at all. In fact, for a change watches admin fall over in shock I actually agree with this decision of theirs.

I was wondering about that myself. What's so hard to go to the DS forum. That's what it's there for. Questor said it, "it doesn't work like poser," Dahhh. There is no need to confuse the New Poser users with a completely different app. It is a new learning curve with it's own way of doing things. Eg. I just read at Daz that injection will not be used in DS. Magnets like VV3 dont transfer over unless spawned first, I figured that one out myself, small pat on the back. LOL.

YOu see before daz studio poser was the only software that posed. Just to deal with this seperately. Way wrong. So far out there that we're where the buses don't go. Poser is unique in the simplicity with which it allows character manipulation but it is hardly the only software that poses. Sorry, but Cinema4D is far superior to Poser's ability to move limbs. The primary difference being that Poser has it all set up for you and in Cinema/Max/Lightwave/Maya etc you actually have to do some work of your own.

Hmm, well we'll see what happens. I agree there'll be a lot of irrelevent wow cool posts for quite awhile about daz studio. I'm thinking longer term there may be a posing forum instead of a poser forum. Love esther

To jump in here, esterau, with your last comment, I am in complete agreement. That is where things will probably move. However, for now, I believe the two peices of software should hae and be in separate forums. Although they use the same "character sets", there is substantial difference in teh operation of the two. Add to that the gee-whiz or the %$%^%#$ factor of the learning curve, and it is best we just handle the migration now, get it over with, and keep everything running smoothly.

A posing forum? How to manipulate an arm? Make a character sit? Oh I hardly think so. Poser 5 (if/when) they fix it properly, introduce sensible memory management and eliminate the P4 weirdness that it's inherited will be an extremely versatile and powerful application all it's own. The potential for integration into the Shade software makes it even more so. I doubt there'll ever NOT be a need for a Poser forum and it's future may well be far brighter than I might even think. Having spoken at some length with Katherine at CL I'm quite hopeful that it will improve and fullfill it's potential. In that respect Poser is and will become a vastly different application to Studio. There's been a mistake opinion in this and other forums that Studio is "another Poser". It's not, it was never intended to be and trust me, manipulating and posing characters in Studio will be and at the moment now, is, significantly different to Poser. As an example. If I was to post instructions here on "posing" a character for Cinema, or Rhino, the instruction set would make absolutely zero sense to a Poser user. I do see what you're saying but Studio is as removed from Poser as 3DAntic is removed from poser. They are not, and will never be the "same".

You're probably right. I haven't tried dazstudio yet as I have a mac. But I was hoping it would just be another better poser. Love esther

Another better poser? smile Ahhh, such would be the luck huh? Daz couldn't and can't make a "poser" they'd get themselves into a nightmarish situation with Curious Labs that could well bankrupt both companies. So they've take the idea - which is not protected - and made an application that they feel better reflects the needs of users for character manipulation. Max has the same thing with Humanoid and Biped and whatever other plugin is available. Lightwave has things like Messiah and then there's other programs like Antic3D, Crowd and half a dozen more than are "poserish" in as much as they allow the manipulation of "characters". Each one is very different to the other and that's going to be the case with Poser and Studio. I don't disagree with you that people will probably adopt both and use both. But like with rendering. Only a relatively few people render exclusively in Poser. Same with Studio. There will be people who'll continue to use Poser because of functions it possesses (like the cloth and face room etc) and use Studio for other things. There will be people like me who's only contact with Poser is posing a character, and everything else is done in another application. Studio as such won't cause a split in the "community" (whatever that is) because there's no reason to split it. There's no war being fought for supremacy here. Poser has integrated various tools. Studio has followed the more popular route of plugin integration. This makes it more configurable for the users who will buy only what they need, whereas with Poser they may well get tools they don't need. For instance, in my view Poser 5 is almost useless. It offers no improvements to the interface, to the boning or creation of characters, it offers nothing in the workflow that I don't already get (faster) with Poser 4. Hair, cloth, renderer etc I already get far better from Cinema. So it offers me nothing. For a great many people though it is an answer to a lot of problems. They get the built in integration of tools they could not otherwise afford. I don't think you need to worry at all about Poser losing popularity, nor the Poser forum dying out or any other such scenario because there are advantages to all and every application available and Poser, while still suffering problems, is unique in some of the things it offers - such as character manipulation. It would take me a considerable amount of work to bone a figure for C4D, Poser already has them, in spades. So... what's easier? :D This is one of the reasons I think that keeping the two forums seperate is a good idea. Not because I hate one or the other company, that's irrelevant, but because they're both very different programs.

I'd like a Daz studio category in the gallery as well, if that's possible. I agree the two forums and posts about the two programs should remain seperate. Thanks

I do think sometimes peole act like clicking "next" to scroll the forum is this huge and overwhelming task. Only takes me one second to click "next". Takes even less time to ignore a post you have no interest in. If one or both forums become too sparse eventually they will be merged but for now "why not". Think the DS forum is a good idea. People had better hope that DS replaces Poser, elsewise this party is over a few operating systems from now. I think CL was aquired to convert us to Shade if it launches into the americam market. CL was up for sale. It wasn't the software that as valuable..it is the user base. I mean really...lol The 5th Version in 2002 and no undo button.

There's lots of "not there" things in Poser 5 Anton, and with all the other foibles (too many to list here) it's one of the most scream inducing applications I know of, but that doesn't invalidate it; just makes it... different. With all the connotations of that word. Without Poser there is no poser userbase and without integration of Poser the userbase will not translate to Shade - it's a good app, very good but... well, it's harder to learn than Poser, a lot harder and I think we both know very well where "learning" stands in Poserdom. :) So, the owners of Shade want the transit routes, the entry visa and work permits and other facilities that Poser (Curious Labs) offers. I don't think they'll drop it too fast. Not because of some little forum hidden somewhere on the planet surface or from any sense of decency towards the poor users who have been mistreated all these years, but because of things that Poser has to offer (with decent coding and some creative repair work). So the future of Poser, while still very much up in the air is also somewhat brighter than it was a few weeks ago left to the auspices of half a dozen box packers in the CL office. My own volatile opinion isn't suitable for this thread but even I can see a "chance" for poser here. Studio isn't the new Messiah, won't be for a while yet. It's promising that's for sure and as soon as I can get my grubby little paws on it I'll play with it too. If it increases the work flow for what I do then great, Poser can take a flying F*** at a rolling donut. I'm completely mercenary in that respect. Meanwhile, it's not in my paws and at the moment (alpha) isn't likely to improve my workflow. Besides. It's Daz. They're just like Curious Labs in some ways. Release item, three service packs, done. It applies to their figures so why not their software? The existence of Studio doesn't invalidate nor destroy the existence of Poser. Price is different (free) but we've yet to see pricing schedules for the plugins which might make all the difference for certain users. There's more than enough room around here for two competing applications and with the current userbase I don't see the death of Poser for at least 18 months, if at all.

There's a D|S forum, and not everyone is in the Plat Club, so they prolly find it an annoyance. Any D|S help I can give, I'll do it in that forum, not here. Sorry, but that's the way it is. ...and no, Poser ain't gonna die off immediately (and long term? That depends on the Shade folks, ne?) /P

Well time will tell. All actions form a pattern. willing to go back to throwing a chicken into the air screaming "FLY GAWD DAMNIT!" Who knows. Maybe it will. -Regards, Anton "The elderly often dispair because unlike happiness, frustration, disappointment and anger cling longer to your soul." -Catherine Davis

That all depends on whether it's a dead chicken or not? CL are good at voodoo programming. Are Daz? smirk "The denunciation of the young is a necessary part of the hygeine of older people and greatly assists the circulation of their blood." - Logan Pearsall Smith

I'd like a Daz studio category in the gallery as well, if that's possible. I'll ask on that one. It's a great idea. Cheers!

Yeah that would be nice too

Maybe even a separate website called "DAZ?" Nah, .......... that'd make two much cents. Those are just mine. ;=]

How about adding a prominent link to the DIS Forum to the forum masthead? That seemed to help somewhat when the product showcase forum was started. Frankly, there's no way to guarantee that every member, even regular visitors will even know it exists, and that their posts won't be exempted from such a rule just because they want more people to see their DIS postings, but make a prominent enough link above, and most folks will be 'way too embarrassed to make as much of an issue about their posts being moved when a mistake is made. And there will be many, many such mistakes. No escaping it with the eclectic mix of members here.

easy solution: 'Whiners Forum' here and 'Non-Whiners' Forum there. Done deal...move along folk, nothing here to see..

Ooooh lookee there's that big word again. Whiners. Gosh, I'm so in awe of people who use that arbitrarily against everything and anything. So, intelligent, so, creative, so utterly illfitting in this discussion. So... completely bloody stupid. No one is whining here Igohigh, so how's about you give your fingers a break and your butt a chance?

Whiners Forum' here and 'Non-Whiners' Forum there. LOL I second that. One "we do stuff" forum and one "we complain about stuff" forum.

OOoooooh -handbags at dawn ! I hate that 'whiner' word too , but onto the original theme to this thread-

• I agree DazStudio and Poser should have seperate forums.
  As a Mac user I'm not too interested in Studio until there is actually a Mac version.......even then I'm more curious to see where Poser will go now with Shade. I like Poser 4 PP and when I spend the time learning an upgrade or a whole new app it's because I want to be using it for a long while.

PheonixRising wrote-
"I do think sometimes peole act like clicking "next" to scroll the forum is this huge and overwhelming task. Only takes me one second to click "next". Takes even less time to ignore a post you have no interest in."

When there are a lot of posts of little interest to me , well, it DOES start to take rather a lot of time to click and ignore. People could in theory put DS in the title of their post but that takes even more time and thought.......so separate is better IMO.

Err I do support Questor on this

Poser is scream inducing (marginally less with the service packs)

Daz studio is alpha, is only a posing tool at the moment.

We will pay through the nose for dynamic clothes, hair et al when they come along.

While it is alpha - have a separate forum for the people that want to play with it to communicate directly.

The Daz people that will be monitoring the forums will only have one place to go.I have a feeling that the inconsistency between the open GL render and the final render will take some work to iron out.

I will continue to work with P5 and the rest of the stable programs that I have to do the work I want

A separate masthead to point Daz Studio to the right Forum
is right - Renderosity did the same with P5 when it came out .

I second the idea of 2 separate forums. Those programs have very different strong points, and very different procedures : material room, cloth room, hair room in Poser 5, light management in DS, the list goes on... Basically, the only common things between P5 and DS is that both can bend limbs (OK, just stretching things a bit there) I understand that, for Poser4 users who don't want to go into Poser5, the unique forum would seem interesting. But, in the end, it is just a question of wether you want to stick with Poser4 simplicity, struggle with Poser5 learning curve (and rewarding results IMHO), or embark on the DS adventure. This is an interesting time we are in. May be we will see DS becoming an advanced poser4, while Poser5 users will be drawn into a new level of complexity with the P5/shade merging. Or may be DS or Poser5 will dissapear from the 3D scene. Who knows ? Anyway, the problems one is likely to encounter are very different in P4, P5 and DS. That's the reason why I think 2 separate forums are a good idea. PS : I appreciate DAZ products, DAZ is a good firm, with strong points. But it also has not so strong points. I'm getting annoyed by people who support DAZ like it was a religion.

Compiler - re the Daz religion - me too!

Can we have a "nekkid woman with a sword" forum also :P NWWS rendered in Daz Studio NWWS rendered in Poser 4 NWWS rendered in Vue....etc... The software forums do pose as a place to have serious discussions as such, but what about questions like: "Which sword looks better when she's standing on the beach?" My vote is combine D/S and Poser forum and open a NWWS forum instead. Happy Holidays either way!! Too much eggnog for fin

Add my vote for keeping the forums seperated. This is one of the most active forums on the site, as I'm sure Daz Studio's will be also. It's confusing for those that are new already.

I just bookmarked both forums so I don't have to look for the drop-down box. ;) I really found Becco UK's comments interesting though...DAZ Studio won't be around long enough to matter? Haha, I think DAZ Studio is DAZ's way of protecting their own model business, seeing the mess CL made of things. Whether Poser is in new hands or not, I'm fairly confident that DAZ Studio will become as widely-used as Poser, if not its replacement. Take care. SnowS

My vote for the separate forums.
I am not going to use it until it is established. I also dont know how much the plugins cost ?

I don''t think Daz knows either Himico. We will prpbaly hear more when it is out of beta. I hope by the summer.

---What a COUNTRY! It doesn't get ANY BETTER than THIS!

I like having two separate forums. It makes more sense than the alternative.

Well, if WWII history follows it's course, CL has gone from Germany to Japan and I suppose the Italians will buy them next. Given the amazing quality of output from Japanese Poser users that we've seen, I suspect that Poser if far from dead. Just being connected will a real, established 3D modeling company should be a huge plus. Who knows, maybe the Shade folks will start making their own content and give Daz a run for their money. Vicky may be outdone by Kimiko.

Given Poser's history, I hope the Shade guys get them to do what C-Labs was never will to before. Make Poser a App that will integrate with high end 3D apps. If Poser just ends up being developed for SHADE integration, and they don't get back to supporting LW, and other apps. It will be the end of Poser for me.

Ratteller-surely this will apply to DS as well? If Daz cannot get plug-ins out quickly enough to make a sizeable amount of professional and semi-professional artists to make the move over to DS then surely Daz will be left as a niche product.Or do they want a niche product that good little daz consumers will buy their content and then hurry to get the first render up on the forum(shudder) I have an inkling that compiler may be right when he postulates shader/poser5 development- the danger as I see it from Daz's point of view is that the poser 5 community will take the shade/poser 5 product(poser 6?) to "new levels of complexity" certainly a poser 5 that does what is supposed to do -better collision detection, GL rendering and a better production renderer (all of which shade already has)would move poser into a new level of sophistication. Could Daz - who are, after all, content producers- raise their game to meet the the challenge or will we see a parting of the ways in poser /ds in that the naked-vicki-in-the -temple set will favour Daz and endlessly fill up the gallerys with even more acres of virtual flesh and the Poser/shade elements pushing the outside of that envelope. just thoughts.

" ... just thoughts. " And very provocative ones, also! ;=]

I would say this will probably be a parting of the ways on one level. Up till now everything DAZ has made is Poser4 compatible, which means Poser5 should handle it. C-Labs didn't even bother to make Poser5 scenes PZ5, or CR5, to identify them. Even PZZ wans't really theirs. It's just a zipped version of the regular Poser files. Now that DAZ has their own format, it much more likely THEY will push the envelope. THe DAZ file evidently will include everything in the scene. No more trying to sort from various runtime folders to get your distribution together. If DAZ takes the same about of time to come out with Pluggins for the final released D|S as C-Labs take to make Poser6, where will I be? Same place. Figuring out my own work around for both programs. DAZ|Studio, right now in APLPHA release, had way better content management and user interface. That's why I'll use D|S over P5. DAZ has, if nothing else, shown a willing ness to make the tool I wanted. Even if they don't, or can't finish it. C-Labs with Poser has basically given me whatever they thought they could get away with. I REALLY hope C-Labs pulls their act together and that Poser 6 is a smart, original, and MODERN tool they promised us for Poser5.

Ratteler one could say that by creating a new file format Daz is attempting to corner a market . DS as you point out, has changed the user interface. It is however a still a basic posing tool. no plugins. No cloth. No materials. I have been around enough to know that what is in alpha releases (and tends to have the wow factor) is not what ends up in the final release .I still want to know how long would all of the content that I want (hair, materials and cloth etc)- that makes me use Poser 5- how long and how much will those modules take to come on line. File formats. Do you think that Daz would be unwise enough to essentially cut off one of their prime means of income by refusing to release anything they have on offer in the new file(how big are these new files going to be if it"will include everything in the scene"? err lets see My v3 with morphs and a decent texture is what 118,243Kb mike 3 same(ish)so how big are these files going to be? Just the figures will be larger than one of my PZ3 folders Hmmm.... now surely The Shade people are not stupid , they know what went on with Poser 5 (I think the bottom line is that CL ran out of money and HAD to release something that they knew was clunky)they will be looking at a merging of their products- if they are wise they will be looking at the release of DL and seeing what is good and bad with the product. They will have plenty of time to see the state of play and what people really want. They are after all a Software house not a content provider trying to be a software house. They have shade - a very good product. will they want to rewrite the core of poser - yes of course they will - and they have the experience to do so. Will they include OpenGL yes because they have to to give the target purchasers what they want, will they put in something to read daz files course they will - and Daz will give it to them if it means more content will be sold. Because you see by then, DL will be old news and Poser 6 will be the new kid on the block ;-) What will Daz do then? There is an old chinese curse"may you live in interesting times" - its getting more interesting day by day!

lol. Sounds good but isn't going to happen that way. P5 was nopt released "clunky". It was released broken. Who is their right mind would rewrite Poser's code. The code is known for being so heavily reworked and frankensteined, why in 2003 would anyone want it. It needs to be deleted and rewritten. To me CL isn't so much a company anymore as a department. And who is going to fix Poser? I am not even sure if CL has any employees that know how to really explain to anyone how to use Poser. That's a bad sign right there. I talked to one of their main tech people when P5 was in alpha and after 30 seconds I realized he had no idea what I was talking about. P5 wasn't an accident. They don't know how to fix it and I doubt the new owners will launch a research team to understand the program design with all it's intricacies. I can't handle joint parameters that depend on spheres. Unless they add weight mapping I don't care what they do with P6, if there is even ends up being a P6. Whatever happeneds will be interesting. I'll agree with that.

PheonixRising - Why did e-frontier they buy it then? Spare cash for a useless product ? They have all of the code, they can do what they want with it, change it, recycle it or throw it out and replace it. Look at some of the content coming from our eastern bretheren . I agree that it "deleted and rewritten" thats what I was saying - if e frontier are serious - and they have put there money on the line - they will be doing just that. I do not expect Poser 6 coming hot on the heels of DS.. Fundamental rewrites take time. But they have good products and good code already in their products(have you seen some of thise animations?) err it is common to all software houses that only the core team knows anything when a program is in alpha- unless they choose to release it to the greater community to do the bug catching - then it is only fair to release it free and buggy.That is when support teams are told about it.Until a product is officially released I doubt if any software house would say anything about it. I hope there will be a poser 6 - or even a shady poser I fnot -Hey I still have hair, materials,cloth etc to play with until DS gets it act together. And I will not participate in bug tracking - once is enough

Why did e-frontier they buy it then If you read their press releases and the comments from Katherine at CL you'll know. They bought Poser because it was going cheap and they needed a US company with distribution routes into the US and European markets for their non-Japanese conversion of Shade. That in a nutshell is why they bought Poser, and that's not made up, it's from the horses mouth (so to speak) Whatever else e-Frontier do with the legacy left by CL's mistakes and whether they bother to fix poser is entirely up to them. There will be a SR4 for Poser 5 and CL claim they're working on Poser 6, which according to the CEO of CL will be "a stable and fixed Poser 5". Make your own conclusions from that.

One thing to remeber. DAZ are primarily content providers. Narsil is hinting at the negitive aspect of this, but the positive side is that they will use D|S in house. That means and bug, glitch, or "this could be done better" is going to get immediate attention out pure motivated self interest. They NEED to use their program. I'm sure 90% of the stuff DAZ sells will be P4 compatible for the next 3 to 4 years. REASONS? 80% of the stuff DAZ sells is brokered and they are not going to cut into their own market unless they absolutly have to. Add to that the learning curve needed to make things "the DAZ way", and that DAZ isn't even at a 1.0 version yet, and you can bet that we will only see DAZ|Studio exclusive content when the object littereally won't work in any version of Poser. Here's a bet for you. The first items available only in D|S .DAZ format will be either a long dress, or folding wings. D|S might not be new when P6 comes out, but it will be updated and evolving. Something that P6 will probably not be 6 months after it's release.