This is a personal opinion and I would like to check If anybody agrees/disagrees. I think using freebies is a great way to learn. However I would prefer if the use of freebies could be limited in some way in the challenges and images allowed to be voted into the hot20. I'm a judge this month at the Bryce forum gallery (Watchful eye, Brude MacLeods place) and when I see a contribution that consist mostly of freebies and presents (such as Poser figures) then I don't vote for it (even if it might be great). Well.. anyway. That's how I think about it.

Whether or not freebies (mesh imports) are used or not is decided by the member who also decides the theme any given month. "Pure" Bryce challenges do happen. Sometimes no pic texture imports, sometimes no mesh imports, sometmes both, etc. Hot20 restriction - To do that, some poor soul would have to painfully review each Bryce picture uploaded and decide whether or not there were freebies used in it at all, as to not allow it to be voted on for the Hot20. Lol, remind me to wait until NEXT month to upload some of my own pics to Watchful Eye then, lol...;o) (j/k) AgentSmith

Surely a judge should abide by the guidelines, the same as any entrant and if those rules allow freebies and imports, the image should be assesed on its merits. Im sorry but I get really annoyed with the attitude that a picture isnt worth looking at if it contains other peoples contributions. We all have a limited amount of time to spend at this and I certainly have to choose if I am going to spend that time making models or making pictures. More often than not I choose the latter, others will differ. Traditional artists and photographers dont worry about whether they have made their props, why should I? I find it interesting that when a good freebie appears, something like Meski`s mill, for instance, it is used in such a variety of ways that it seems no longer to be the same object. That, to me, is what this is all about.

To each their own. Another example - some like raw renders, some like postwork. I imagine that's why Bruce selects different judges for each month - so that different tastes and preferences get selected each month and that no one prefered image type dominates the select gallery. Out of curiousity (and playing the devils advocate) - does that include publicly available textures?. AS - lol - I'll wait in line with ya ;)

(insert standard rejection of Purist ideology here)

"a picture isn`t worth looking at if it contains other peoples contributions". I didn't say that. "pure" I didn't say that either.

This topic comes up again and again and the thing that gets me is that we are creating scenes from the objects we use and where they come from should not matter because you can give many people the same mesh to work with and you will not get two images alike. As I said in a previous thread I make art not art programs, also I'm not good at modelling outside of Bryce, so what you are telling me is that if I can't make my own model for a scene then I should be limited in my ideas to what I can produce in Bryce. Another point, about using Poser figures, do you think that posing a figure is something that can be done in seconds and that has no merit in and of itself? I can spend a couple of days on a Poser figure, getting the pose right, before I export it to use in Bryce. It takes skill to pose figures, create morphs for them, and set them up with clothes that fit, where body parts don't poke through. Then there is all the time it takes to set them up in Bryce, ie. textures, placement, size, etc. The main point about CG art is, as with all other forms of art, it does not matter how you get the image to a finished state or what is used in that process, what does matter is how good is the composition, the coloration, the lighting, the pov, and everything else that goes into making an image a work of art. My 0.02p worth. Catlin I want to be creative artist, not a programmer.

I guess that would make me a terrible judge. I don't think I could judge anyones work on whether or not it had freebies in it, or if they did any post work in photoshop or it has a poser figure in it. I have to look at the work as a whole. I guess I just don't understand the purist rhetoric I see from time to time. I know what I like and what I like seems like art to me. Agreed Catlin

"I'm a judge this month at the Bryce forum gallery (Watchful eye, Brude MacLeods place) and when I see a contribution that consist mostly of freebies and presents (such as Poser figures) then I don't vote for it (even if it might be great)" Bummer... It is your choice as being a JUDGE to choose your Entries,But I personally think you should have kept this to youself and not Broadcast it to the BRYCE and Other Communities... I will not be uploading any Pics while you are a Judge and any other Judge that feels the same way.I PERSONALLY feel that Judges/People like you are HOLDING one of the BEST programs ever made BACK and are Restricting the Awesome Capabilities That can be wrought out of a Program that has been vertiually left for DEAD by it's Creators and its Buyers.... Think about it...I can make a Pic using nothing but Bryce and I can do a very Dang good Job of it too(At least I think so :)But the real abilities come with using other Programs to interact with Bryce and coming up with stunninly Realistic Renders that only convey one thing...Art is ART no matter how it was made... It still is your choice...

"... a limited amount of time to spend at this..." Ain't that the truth! Perhaps striving to create one's own models should always be the goal, after all self reliance is the mark of an acomplished tradesman, artist or whathaveyou. I don't see any advantage to 're-inventing the wheel' every time you make one. Perhaps what a render says, and how it looks is as important as how it was done if not more so; at least for the purpose of these challenges. I'm sure we all make an effort to use the tools at our disposal to our best advantage and in the most creative way possible, whether they are purely our own or whether we stand on the shoulders of others to create something new. It is that effort that is most important of all, is it not? - TJ

You don't understand what I'm saying. I don't care about if it hase some freebies or not or the level of post production. I'm not argueing with you. I'm just saying what makes me tick and what doesn't. I'm not interested in a discussion about "what is art or not" or "what is pure or not". I'm also a vegetarian, I prefer driving a Saab, I don't like folk-music and have a bunch of other humble opinions that surely annoys somebody.

"when I see a contribution that consist mostly of freebies and presents (such as Poser figures) then I don't vote for it (even if it might be great)." What you are saying here is that you are not interested in the creativity of the persons art, from what you've said it appears it's the other tools used that makes it good, not the creative vision the person has had. People who are only interested in the tech are missing out on a lot of what art is, ie. for me, it's an expression of self. We could all be computers with no consious thought, but if that were the case we could not create, and bring into being, something which never existed before. I think you are being rather narrow minded here Bazze and although you are allowed to have your own opinion don't be surprized that I am allowed to have my own opinion also. Catlin

Maybe I am.. but no more than to admit that it may be so. Opinions are what I asked for in my first post. What I don't like is that what I said originally gets twisted along the way (may be my own fault).

I don't see a real problem..to a man with a hammer, all problems look like nails..;) I wonder if making your own models counts? 14,220 downloads of freebies, and I haven't used someone else's stuff in almost a year..;) I've seen 2 pics from others with my stuff in them, and to be honest, they did a better job with them than I did..;) What makes a picture is not necessarily the tools that went into it, but the artistic and compositional talent that puts together a good one. I think if you texture the models yourself, position them, etc., it doesn't give all that much advantage. As long as the final product gives the desired effect, I don't know if it makes that much difference. (Glomming booleans together actually takes me longer than doing the same thing in a modelling package..but there are some out there who can turn out amazing things with pure Bryce [Bambam131 comes to mind])

"However I would prefer if the use of freebies could be limited in some way in the challenges and images allowed to be voted into the hot20." OK, here's my opinion: That's a very bad idea. I don't care where a painter got his paint from; I only care what he did with it.

basse, On some levels we may understand what you are saying but it is not coming across very well... And no matter what this would boil down to what is art/pure because that is what you are judging. I can only judge art on how it affects me; This changes over time and from time to time. One person's piece may be awesome one day/month/year to it's nice another day/month/year, which in turn may be back to awesome the next day/month/year. I guess what it really boils down to is whether you judge art on a technical level or an emotional level. I don't think I can judge art on a technical level, because when I say "wow, that is awesome!" it is effecting me on an emotional level.

"'a picture isn`t worth looking at if it contains other peoples contributions'." "I didn't say that." But it was implied in your first post by: "...when I see a contribution that consist mostly of freebies and presents (such as Poser figures) then I don't vote for it (even if it might be great)." "'pure'" "I didn't say that either." Given. But the arguments you make come very close to arguing for some standard way of constructing images with Bryce. I don't want to make you feel bad about your opinions, just to see them in the light of the opinions of others. There is NOTHING wrong with feeling the way you do. Keep expressing yourself. John

Why reinvent the wheel when it is readily made available in several forms? When you bought your Saab, did you make all the parts or did you use what other people manufactured?

can't one try to judge it on a technical level and on an emotional level? Aldaron - so I guess you use freebies to be super efficient and cost effective?

Firstly, let me say that this thread seems to be getting a bit aggressive towards Bazze and my own earlier post reads that way too, for which I apologise to him. It wasnt meant to. I just dont agree with what you say, which was what you wanted to know in the first place, right, mate?
Secondly, a point about freebies, or indeed any third party model or texture. In my case they are very often the inspiration for an image. I see what someone has produced and straight away I can see how it could be used, just as a photographer may come upon a scene and cant wait to record it. What Im saying is, without the freebie, there would not be that particular image.

thanks Sambucus! Don't worry, I'm used to these "all against one" threads :) Don't worry about submitting to the bryce forum gallery. My judging period ends in one or two days :D "People like you are HOLDING one of the BEST programs ever made BACK and are Restricting the Awesome Capabilities That can be wrought out of a Program" - yeah right.. that's why I'm a member of this forum and bother posting my opinons here.

"This is a personal opinion and I would like to check If anybody agrees/disagrees." This seems to be the main question.... My simple response is.... I disagree. Stated with no offense intended. Just an answer. 8) Wade

Bazze you're not alone. I agree with you in principle. I also realize that in practice one must accept it. However, I like to see this question posted regularly. I think that too often the art of modeling is overlooked. I often hear/read that models are tools. This to me is a specious argument. Designing and building a model is a step in the creative process just as much if not more so than compostion and texturing. Though it may seem esoteric, I believe tools are used in the creation process they do not become part of the creation. And as such, I take much more interest in a work which was entirely created by its author.

Theres nothing wrong with freebies, i think its up to the creator of the image to decide, but honestly guys, sometimes it can be over used. Ive seen some terrible examples of that in the Poser forums.

Under the credit line:
Character by ...
Dress by ...
Shoes by ...
Hair by ...
Hair pose by ...
Textures by ...
Pose by ...
Buildings by ...
Props by ... (there were about 200 of them, all freebies)
Lighting by ...
blabla blabla by ...

And the list went on like that forever...

This person had basically put everything together and put the nametag on the pic.
OK, i dont argue about this being art or not, it was a nice piece, but nothing in the scene was made by this person, and this was no newbie.
Personally, i think that at least SOMETHING should be done by own hands. :)

I didn't have time to go getting models of fish for my challenge entry this month. I instead drew the hammerhead shark and starfish and seaweedy thingy in the terrain editor and used lattices. My entry is 100% my own and that feels good, but if I'd been able to get some of those brightly colored fish from the freebies I would have because I don't have the ability yet to make them myself and I really wanted them in my pic. I like doing my own stuff but I also will use another's prop if it will help me get what I want, when I can't get it myself. I don't feel that restrictions should be made on the artist, I think it should be a freedom of choice thing. My 2 cents.

Oh goodie, another debate. I'm a pretty good Bryce modeler. Actually, really good when it comes to buildings or objects, but I can't do sharks and seaweed worth squat, so I picked them up as freebies for this month's challenge. Absolutely, I will use freebies (or models I purchased for that matter), but generally to highlight something I built in Bryce. That's because I like to model in Bryce. OK ... that's the set up ... here's my point ... I'm not much of an artist. I have a LOT to learn about setting up a scene and making it POP. And, therefore, I have to say I would hate to see something of mine picked over something that was a better work of art simply because I used less or no freebies on it and mine was maybe ok, but the other was really great. That would suck all the joy and meaning out of being picked. Let's take this month's challenge as an illustration. I like my piece, I really do, and I worked hard on it and very hard on my sub .... but have you SEEN Agent Smith's piece? Yes it has an imported model and yes, he did postwork on it .... BUT REALLY people, that is a jaw dropping friggin fantastic work of ART. Compare his to mine and it's the difference between a Rembrandt and a really nice doodle. To judge mine superior because I made the paper and pencil with my own two hands would just be wrong.

Got to add my twopennyworth. Not too long ago the poser forum monthly challenge was to actually make an image using only freebies except for one figure (the poser character obviously). Even your own models, textures etc were banned, unless they had been offered as a freebie. There were some really good images in that month, and so many different ways that the theme was approached. And it was good fun.

Seems to me that if you "judge" useing that criteria then you are going to deter a lot of beginners from considering a challenge entry.I myself am years away from any serious modelling ability and although I have Photoshop and illustrator (which I still need to learn to use),then even basic post work is a long way off. Having a go at the challenge,yes,I will someday, to be Judged without bias and purely on merit,yes, I would appreciate that.Sorry but it will be "freebies" for me for sometime yet. Cheers GG

I personally don't use freebies often at all... The only things I'll pick up are textures, mats, and sometimes a model or two. That's just me, but I won't say that using models made by someone else is wrong. The only times this bothers me is when someone takes a freebie or two, textures and lights them, and puts them in an otherwise BLANK scene---then gets in the HOT20. There is always at least one entry in there that looks like this (sometimes more). Sometimes a simple one object scene is nice, but man oh man do I see too much of "Let's stick a brick texture on all these freebies" Yikes

Why is it ok to use a model you pay for but not a freebie? Just curious.

oh stop your whinging everyone! i love freebies! look at my WIP for this month's challenge. count the bryce primatives. feel the love!!!!! oh damn, i left my bag o' love at home all i've got is hate with a pinch of spite. enjoy! drops the bag and legs it over to the poser forum where its safer ;] John

Swade, Yep! I don't think that those who were kind enough to reply to the original post should be told that they are missing the point when they disagree with the original poster's opinion and say why. Perhaps the original poster lost sight of the question they asked. From what I've read, everyone here, at least so far, has tried to give their own opinion in a polite and informative manner. - TJ

RE post 23 by phenom01. I've got to agree with you - making a model to me is a work of creation, and if thats what makes art, then it'd be a work of art too. I actually enjoy the modelling process more than the scene construction and render process on quite a few occasions. RE post 29 by corys311 and a few other posts... I too have downloaded a lot of models, but there's only a couple I've actually used - mainly poser characters cos my organic modelling and texturing skills still need a lot of work. I've come now to just downloading thumbnails of other things... I still have the idea when I look at it but it takes a lot less HDD space lol.

Flak, I think between what you've just said and what sambucus and Rochr said earlier lies what I feel may be a resolve I can live with. How I go about modeling is more a matter of time,energy,mood and ability than it is about any feeling that an image needs to be pure. Freebees are a crutch to help express what should be a feeling or story in graphic form. Time and talent allowing, we shouldn't use them; but on the way to that goal of accomplisment how can we deny what a picture says and how it says it just because freebees are used? On the other hand; overuse and dependancy on them should, by all means, be avoided. -TJ

I disagree too. Normally I use lots of freebies, especially models. I've bought some too. I rarely model because I don't like to and I'm no good at it. As for Poser models, I almost always morph them myself. To not vote for an image because the models were imported and free, even if the image itself is worthy of a vote, is sad.

I believe if you are a judge at the Bryce Forum Gallery you should be judging the artwork itself, on it's own merit, the composition, use of light and shadows, and color, does it evoke a strong emotion, is the perspective unusual, did the artist make use of his subject matter well, not on how many freebies were contained within it...But you are entitled to judge how you see fit, I don't agree with you but that's just my opinion... Having been a judge on several juried artshows I may have a different perspective on what you should be looking for when judging artwork, whether someone else's or your own. Imported models, Poser figures, freebies, these are -tools-, just like the program the final render is done in. It's a tool, not the art... Art in itself is not a 'pure' thing, there are paints, and sculpture, pottery, collages, assemblages, welding, all kinds of tools to create art. I would not penalize someone who is not good at modeling, or Poser, because they use a freebie model or figure, that in effect is saying they are not 'creating' the final artwork, and that is not true.... Example: would you say that a Fabrege Egg was not art because of the use of other things, the pearls come from oysters, enamels from a paint company, filgree from a goldsmith, other parts from other sources, but these are just that, parts, until an artist has the inspiration and -creates- the egg, and then, all those parts become a whole, a thing of beauty... When judging look beyond the -parts- to the -art-....:)

I am just wondering how you see a Poser figure, that a person has paid for, posed, morphed, maybe even made the textures for as a "freebie" or "premade model"? Your view at this point gets a bit anal, imo. I have judged there before as well, I dont recall these being in Bruce's guidelines. I think you are doing his site a dis-service by ignoring great work because of your hang-ups. Just my $0.02..

Personal view-without bothering to read above-If you cant make your own,use a freeby-but customise it with your own textures,stretch it,etc...adapt the thing somehow to make it show some of your own input.

Bikermouse, RE "Freebees are a crutch...." Adding to what you said. All of this 3d "art" stuff to me is about getting an image or feeling in my head, out of my head. I found out pretty early that there was never a freebee that actually fit perfectly what I would want to do in an image - even just for a simple castle image. Thus the final image would be not as close to the image in my head or convey the feeling exactly as I wanted it to be, which I found sort of unsatisfying. Being able to make my own models, allowed me to get my idea out far closer to how I want it to get out, rather than having it constrained or modified by what I can find. On the other hand, as mentioned, there is stuff I can't make yet, so thats where freebees are so handy - they get me closer to that final desired image. Something else - a friend of mine (who I make the odd model for) who uses poser as her 3d weapon of choice has said to me that she likes having unique models that no-one else has - because it sets her pictures apart from a lot of the other commercial or freebee driven images... it gives them their own unique style. Some people (thinking of ocddoug as an example) are also good enough to generate style with their lighting and overall mood they inject into their pics (I can't yet - lighting and texturing are two other things I'm trying to work on along with organic modelling techniques). I guess those are the main reasons I hope everyone gives modelling a go at some stage - firstly - it can help get you closer to the image in your head, and secondly it can help set your work apart from other images and can give it its own unique flavour. (Disclaimor - its not the only weapon in the arsenal of 3d that can do this, but its certainly one of them). If you find out that you don't like the act of modelling, fair enough - I can easily see how shuffling vertices and subD surfaces isn't everyones idea of an enjoyable afternoon. If you find that it just doesn't work out for you, like my friend did, then so be it - at least you gave it a go. Anyways, enough rambling... off to look at the use of lighting and shadows to frame an image and other scary things ;)

I will make what I think is a GREAT point of working PURE in Bryce; I wouldn't have learned so much, so fast if I hadn't had to work purely in Bryce in some of the Challenges! (seriously) Lol, "so fast"...it's been like 3 years I've been working with Bryce. ;o) *Another point is bazze stated "...a contribution that consist mostly of freebies..." Well, I can understand that to a degree. We have all seen renders that were slapped together with a bunch of readily available models. And, it's not really that they're readily available or pre-made, but that the picture just looks as if there wasn't much thought put into it, and that fact is being covered up by a jumbled picture of imports. But, I'll admit to doing that, lol. I was like that while still learning Bryce. At that point, it was just exciting to render something, anything! (kinda still is) AgentSmith

And BTW, I mostly use use my own stuff in my images, I enjoy modeling and making textures, and in the case of the models for my abstracts, I enjoy the weird quirks that an unstable app can produce. The funny thing is, when I first started I downloaded just about every freebie I could get my hands on, all kinds of stuff (3GB worth), but when I really started using Bryce seriously, I did my own, I've used maybe one tenth of one percent of the freebies I have, and a few mats here and there, until I learned the DTE, now even the freebie mats sit idle, cause I LOVE doing stuff in the DTE. But, as I stated, they are only another tool, the final picture is what counts....

Same here, I must have downloaded a gig's worth of stuff when I first came to Renderosity (and that was with my 33kbps dial-up...) AS

Example. Image (A): Nice render, composition etc etc. 95% freebies / commercial models that I already have seen 100-times. Image (B) Nice render, composition etc etc. 25% freebies / commercial models cleverly modified / adapted / customized. I find B more interesting without saying anything about what is art or not. I don't care about tools used, the level of post production if you spent 5 days posing a figure or not. That just mine, as you said, anal and narrow minded view.

I agree with your last statement, but I think you need to get beyond that...

Play-by-play Guy: It's a wonderful day for painting and it looks like Picasso is raring to go! You can tell by the look on his face that he really came to paint today! Color Commentator: Yep, he's got a 17 by 24 canvas all gessoed and ready, and his pallette is all laid out with an interesting array of primary colors. PbpG:He's reaching for a #5 Grimaldi charcoal and he's starting his sketch...it's a circular object, maybe the sun, or a ball... CC:It's definitely the sun, Bob, because now he's laying in the land below, so it's a landscape! It's a landscape! PbpG: And the crowd goes wild! CC: This looks like it could be one of Picasso's best! Now he's picking up a #37 hard bristle brush and dipping it in yellow ochre...and he makes his first stroke of paint on the canvas! PbpG: An interesting choice, Ray, and there's a bit of murmuring in the crowd. Picasso's choice of brush here has them confused... CC: It shouldn't be that big a surprise, Bob, Picasso is known to use a hard bristle to block in the main shapes...oh, no, he's fallen over! PbpG: He seems to have fallen asleep, Ray, well let's break away for commercial, and we will bring you right back to the action as soon as anything happens!

Commercial: Why wait when you can have those same imported brushes, rare earths paints, and charcoal made for you, ready to use when you need them. On the go? Our artist supplies are top notch, we use the finest linen for our canvas, and pure acrylic polymer gesso so you don't have to fuss with all the tedious stretching and gessoing. Get yours today! Don't forget that our paints are ready made so you only need to open the tube and squirt. And those brushes are together and shaped so you don't need to, just wet and paint. Our quality tools can help you, spend less time on making your supplies and more time on creating that one of a kind masterpiece. See us today, this, courstey of FreebiePaints and Supplies Co. your source for the lastest in art supplies.

:^)

For *$&)'s sake, who cares if you didn't model that million polygon tree or that cute girlie model from scratch, poly by poly? The final image is all that matters. That's it. End of story. Finito. This purism in 3d is getting really tiresome. Nobody cares about the brushes or the paints that the old masters used, why should anybody care if you created everything from scratch yourself? Major studios regularly buy 3d models and textures from commercial sources. Do you care that Marlin textures were used in The Matrix Revolutions? I bet not. I'm sure it didn't stop you from enjoying the movie.

Your twisting and exaggerating what I say. Spare me the worn clich and the poor metaphors.

There is one other important thing to think about, and i dont know if this has been up yet. What if someone, a mag, webdesigner etc wants to buy one of your images? I assume that most freebies cant be used for commercial purposes. Of what i have experienced myself, most magazines, when signing a contract, wants to have it clear, that everything is yours and can be used. If you use a prop that someone else has created, they almost always want them to sign a contract as well. If its one or two objects/textures/whatever, i dont think its a big problem, but if it would require 26 different signatures, im pretty sure they would pass. As i said before, i have nothing against the use of freebies, but this is something to keep in mind. :)

:D OK thanks! Let's close this thread now!