Let me start by saying I was awakened way too early this morning (2:30) by things beyond my control, so I am a little cranky right now. I hate to drag this up yet again but I feel strongly about it. Maybe I just need to vent.

I have decided to practice what I preach and start leaving honest comments. Sometimes they are critical, sometimes not. For those of you who might get a little offended by a comment, I can only say, DEAL WITH IT. Comments are truly worthless if their only purpose is to stroke your ego. If that is what you need from the comments then say "nice, ego building comments only please" and I will leave you alone. Otherwise your image is fair game (by the way, the hot 20 is an easy target).

Instead of being offended, be flattered. I only comment on images that get my attention and not many images do (so don't expect too much from me). Making a comment beyond "what a great image" takes work and effort. When someone offers you a suggestion, you are being offered a favor. Don't be offended, be grateful.

Show a little self confidence. You don't have to agree with whatever is said but seeing a new view can open up new possibilities and give valuable experience for future images.

One more thing: What's all this "masterpiece" crap? Masterpieces are few and far between in the whole world, let alone in this place. The real masters are off on their own sites doing their own thing. They seldom show their faces here.

Like I said, I am a little cranky.

Keith

Keith-- You are Cranky...g's. I understand what your saying...I'm new to Fractals and I'm still learning. I think all art is beautiful. Jinx

well seems ya have to like the performing art, and if ya put in comments like, framework is bad, and could be better, and even offer a sample on where ya need to correct, they say, your low and styleless, and trash your own art for no reason, but they don't dare to do that in public ... any criticism should be honoured and taken for notice to improve your art and style ... and not be punished by threats saying: thats against the rules, i'll see what i can do to ban ya ... if your a good artist, you have to stand open for criticism and if you cant stand it, you should not publish ... greetings, Harmen

Here's a thought: Try selling your favorite 40 comment masterpieces in a gallery setting. The first hour you are thinking "I'm going to make a lot of money". The second hour you are thinking, "I know I'm good, there must be something wrong with this crowd. It will pick up later." Watch while other artists sell a few of their pictures or crafts. By the end of the day, after selling nothing, those 40 comments are put into the proper perspective and the ego is flattened to where it belongs. Then do it again the next day. Try it. It's a great experience.

Well,Some people are HOBBY artists and some arent.If you want PAID for your artistic talents,I know a site thats hiring.But do remember wyverns warning on commercial art...you do what THEY want and not what makes YOU happy. I declined the job offer...maybe you need a few bucks AND some "inane drivel" as Matt so sweetly put it,to make you happy????? I have actually BOUGHT fractal posters from Deviant Art.com. Guess its not impossible to make some money from it although I wouldnt quit my day job... :)

Good points, Keith! Speaking for myself, I'll take any constructive critiques you have to offer - Even those that don't gush with praise. I'm a big boy & I think I can handle it :-)

Did someone mention my name?!? I aint getting involved...I've been sent to coventry and i'm blissfully happy thanks to the chill pill I popped. I'm off to make some psychedelic flames... Matt.

LMAO! Cheers Matt! Luv ya man...bad teeth and all! haha!

Hi Keith, I think you make some good points; I hope your critiques will be received in the spirit in which you intend them, and who knows? You might start a trend ; )

I agree to a point! I personally would like to recieve more honest comments for the purpose of improving my ability. I don't have a problem with a suggested improvement, as long as it is done decently and in an orderly fashion. I mean, not openly running someone's picture down just for the sake of it. I have only been using computer drawing and fractal programs for about a year now, so I now I have a long way to go. William

Hey William. I agree with you. It's pointless to run an image down just for the sake of it. Everyone, Isn't leaving a helpful comment an act of kindness and friendship? I think it is. It requires thought and a tiny bit of effort. My best friends in this community are people who I trust to be honest with me and I with them. I have seen some of the fractii masters in action, taking days to build multiple versions of an image and seeking out opinions and days more to think about it. They can take honesty without being offended because they understand that they are dealing with friends. So, today I have already done several of the comments that I am talking about. What do you think? Did I kill you? Do you hate me now? :)

I agree with William. I like suggestions to help me improve as I desire to improve, so long as it's done in a tasteful manner and not as a put down. I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowling someone's hard work even if it has flaws or could be improved upon so I don't mind pointing out things that I like about a piece. I usually only post a critic if I know it's not going to be received offensively. Well that's my 2 cents anyway :) ~Blue

I'm one of the new guys around here. It makes my day when one of the veterans tells it like it is with my work. I have only been doing this for a few months and I think I found something that I truly love to do. A year from now I DEFINATELY do not want to be at the same level I am now. I can only get better if people point out the things that I miss, which is a lot. Jeff

well Deagol I came to see the thread~smiles~ and indeed. as I posted to you it is refreshing to hear a comment that lets you know the person is not out just to stroke your feathers.{ I should note that I have had a couple here that have taken the time either in private IM or on posts to give me tips and it is always appreciated.} I have been pro for a LONG time and rejection is the name of the game. BUT there is a difference between someone slaming a pic and takeing the artist and going..ok see there...add a shadow or a touch of life and it will make the picture POP. I thank you for your comment to my piece.and am testing out more shadows on it.

Honest critique can be a good thing...if it is helpful, and not degrading.

Note what is stated on the comment submission box:

'Provide Your Feedback Below
Your helpful comments for improving this image:'

Things can be easily misunderstood. My suggestion would be to think first, before posting your comments. As Cyble13 stated 'some people are HOBBY artists'. Not everyone is out to make money.

Let's not turn this into a campaign...

Everyone should feel comfortable posting here, both the serious, and not-so-serious artist.
Suggestions to add things,etc., are fine...

If critiques turn out to be more like 'I can do better than that'...it becomes a problem.

Just keep this, and the TOS, in mind when posting comments.

Nick

So far I have got only a very few "helpful" comments, I only remember two or three which I tried to include into the same work.
A helpful comment for me is telling what could be made better (and perhaps how) and why the image/effect/composition/colour choice/... isn't as good as I thought it to be.
People liking my images or people thinking about improvements are welcome alike... :-)

I'm fairly new here and I guess what you'd call a hobby artist. I do love getting the that looks terrific comments...LOL but also wouldn't mind comments letting me know what could be better in my work and how. I'm old enough so my skin isn't so thin...I must tell you though I don't feel competent enough to critique work that obviously far surpasses anything I can do...so most comments from me will be the great image type and what I like about the piece. ;o)

Even to say what you like and not mention what you don't like could give a hint at what is not perfect in an image... Although I think it's a bit more difficult to read :-)

Nick, this is definately a campaign on my part. My hope is to be a little extreme and land somewhere in the middle. You know, I have been around here long enough to know what will happen after the dust settles: Nothing. We will all end up going back to the worthless ass kissing comments, because good comments take a little effort and most of us don't really care about others enough to make that effort. As someone wisely said in an earlier thread, good comments don't need to be negative. They just need to say something specific about the image. I like this because... I like everything but... And we don't need to be experts to say what we like or don't like.

Keith, [What do you think? Did I kill you? Do you hate me now? :)]I think you are right...was too much contrast,no,you didnt kill me my posting your truthful thoughts on my last flame (thank you! :))) and NO,I dont hate you. ;) Hopefully everyone will follow your good example and be more honest with their comments even AFTER the dust settles and you can have some peace of mind that your campaign was a great success. :)

One more thing to think about if you're going down this road, not all members have English as their native language. Today I made a suggestion on someones image and they didn't understand what I meant. The person gave me permission to adapt their image with my changes and e-mail it to them so that they could see what I was talking about. Sometimes a picture speaks a thousand words. Matt. P.S. I'm right behind you on this Keith although i'm limiting myself at the moment to 3 comments a day, I try to make at least 1 of them worth something.

thanks Keith for your comments, i appreciate them very much, William you too, i honour them very much ... and although i have been throwing in my own windows with my comments on some ppl, it doesn't scare me away, and will design more fractal-look-a-likes, i enjoy every day how many ppl view my stuff, and most of them are keeping the silence ... oh and cyble13, thanks for the art community you posted in here, now i can really see what my stuff looks like fullsized on the net ... its really WYSIWYG :-))

Interesting... After posting a pile of comments yesterday I have discovered that not everyone handles criticism very well, and I thought I was nice about it. Now what do I do? Hide in fear of hurting someone's feelings? No way. Like I said at the top, DEAL WITH IT. If you can't handle the comments being used the way that they are supposed to be used then don't allow comments on your images. I am going out of my way to be kind, gentle and helpful. If you become very offended by one of my comments then you need to take a serious look your motivation for being here. Admit to yourself that you need everyone to tell you how great you are even if you are naked. If you are just a little uncomfortable, great. That's the whole idea. Move forward. Your next image will be better.

Attached Link: http://www.ivyjoy.com/fables/emperor.html

What I don't understand about your position, Keith, is whether any images here have anything good in them. Does every single image lack something or have something done poorly? I suppose that might be true. Should we then focus on nothing but that? Should we ignore the fabulous colors because 2 layers didn't line up quite right? Must we point out the tiny bit of purple in a Red/White/Blue image when the form is lyrical and the shape wonderful? In the public comment area, I will often focus on the positive aspects. If I think that someone needs a hint about an area that could be improved, I will write to them privately. That seems the best compromise to me, and I will continue to do so. I think often that public criticism just makes the ears ring with embarrassment and that a sensitive person may not be able to concentrate on improving, but simply give up art as a hopeless cause. I know that I have a lot of learning and working to do, and welcome any comments of any kind on my images. (well, not cruel and nasty flames, lol)

Another small item. I also peek into the Bryce forum from time to time, and they have an interesting take on this philosophy. The members there post images in the forum and ask for comments and criticism...and the members will tear the images apart, suggesting improvements and techniques. Perhaps if someone wants that sort of interchange, we could do it here.

tresamie, I don't think the Bryce way of doing things would work with fractals. Bryce has certain procedures that have to be followed to make a good image. With fractals and the many different programs that people use here, there would be mass confusion and no one would learn anything. At the Bryce gallery, even if you don't ask for C&C, you get bashed and picked apart. It gives the petty and jealous free reign to do what they will. If there is one thing I've learned about fractals is there is no one certain way of doing things. Fractals have infinite possibilities of their outcome and bashing someone because they zigged when you think they should have zagged is non-productive. Just my 2 worth.

Well said tresamie. Deagol- I say again-everyone should feel comfortable posting here. Maybe you should try tresamie's IM suggestion. Nick

isn't posting remarks meant to be to improve your skills, and share knowledge with each other? if not, the we should have two different galleries, one gallery to brighten up someones day and caress the ego, and the other for fractal designers who wish to learn from others ... i dont think its appropriate to bash someone private with remarks about your own stuff after ya have said, pretty image, but the framing is trash ... or trash someones work after that particular person has been mean to ones friend ... a war between people will take place as soon as ya say: i get back to you, because you didn't like my friends design, or i lost a friend because of you, and now i am gonna trash your designs ... because thats what happened here, to start with ... thought we all could handle pretty much everyones comment, its not a trashing one, but to give the ability to communicate and to show where things could improve your work ... if you don't like the comment, just say 'only nice comments please, i want you to make my day' LOL greetings, Harmen

Nick, I couldn't agree more. Everyone should feel comfortable posting here. Everyone also has an option of clicking the comments button on or off. If they turn it on, what is wrong with assuming that they want to have feedback on their images? What else can I assume? Vivian, my friend, it's good to hear from you. I just saw the Karati(sp?) Kid. You know, wax on, wax off? In that movie the old guy talks about finding balance. My goal is see a little balance in the comment universe. Not every comment needs to be negative, but not every comment needs to be positive either.

Hi Keith. I agree pretty much with your stance. What I'd like to add is that I think when somebody has made a critical comment or suggestion for improvement, then there is more of an obligation to respond to them to thank them for taking the time. I used to try to respond to all commenters on my images, but there just aren't enough hours in the day. I do, however, think it is important to reassure people that their critical comment is appreciated to foster the kind of community spirit you and I would both like to see. Best wishes, Simon.

Simon, excellent point. Everyone, Like all threads, this one is starting to repeat itself. I just want to sum up my thoughts. I hope that it is clear that the purpose of a good comment is to lift, not to tear down. A good comment can benefit everyone. On the other hand, a string of nothing but "I love this image" can be a disservice to the person receiving it. I base this conclusion on personal experience. I was one of the top dogs in the best and most galleries before I deleted all of my images. I really do have some experience with this. Maybe my experience is unique. Maybe there is not anything there for anyone else to learn from. If so, so be it. After taking my 40 comment images out of this "choir" that I have been preaching to and presenting them to the general public, I found out where they stood. They didn't stand at all, for the most part. I want to see this place being used to its fullest potential. We could learn so much from each other, but only if we can be honest and real, and if we are willing to put a little effort into a comment by saying something specific one way or the other. We should not be unkind or rude, but we should be honest and helpful. If we choose to get feedback we should be willing to receive it. If we click on the comments box when we upload an image, we should be willing to get comments, whatever they might be. Otherwise turn the comments off.

:) I like constructive criticism. I have posted several images, both with teragen and poser, that I received wonderful criticism on, and the reposts were much better. I think one of the main reasons to post, other than to just say "look what I can do!" (oh, I'm gonna get flamed for saying this, I'm sure~ but this is a mentality held by five-year-olds) is to learn from our own work and everyone else's. So lets grow up a little, and learn to accept criticism. On the other hand, can we trust that the people leaving the criticism aren't just grumpy and taking it out on our work? I know I fould feel better if more people started doing it, and it wasn't just the same old "grumpy" grin people, who make it seem like leaving criticism is meaningless because "they are just like that" or "they are just unhappy with their own work and art in geneeral" or a thousand other excuses people have for themselves when they receive criticism. Does this make any sense? I'm coming off of the Nyquil I took this morning, so this whole method of reasoning might seem a little blurry~ you have to trust that it makes sense to me. Personally, I'm just afraid of offending people (not that you could tell it by this post...) which makes me probably the biggest hypocrite in the world (at least I admit it!) so I'm gonna shut up now and go back to bed. Goodnight, and good luck! ~Elizabeth

Great thread!!!! V

The comments that I have been getting are wonderful. Thanks so much to everyone! I am not seeing the same on other images, which is what I suspected would happen... Oh well. I had no use for a 20 comment image with nothing but "this is great" so I have been deleting them. Now I feel obligated to keep to images with good comments, for my own and anyone else's benefit. This could be interesting. Now only images that need help will stay in my gallery... at least for now.

I'll tell you my experience. I do have a fragile ego, maybe because I'm a bit too insecure or something, so I thought critiques would hurt. But instead, when I got them, they not only didn't hurt me, but they helped me immensely to improve my work. Maybe I won't rework that particular piece, but I'll have more things in mind when creating a new one. Myabe my self confidence grew up a little, so I can take them and use them for the better.
I guess it is a matter of how the critiques are intended (at least for me). If I feel the intention is good, then I really appreciate them and take them into account. If I feel they are wrote just for the sake of it, then I'll feel more "defensive" and maybe nothing good can "enter" my mind.
I also have to confess that many times I was about to write a constructive critic, and didn't, because I was afraid to hurt that person's feelings. I think this has to do with the fact that I don't really know people very well around here, so I won't know what reactions I can cause. Maybe that happens to others too.
This is interesting: I found that now that you "asked" for critiques, some people started to give them just because they saw others doing it. I have the feeling not everybody was sure about what they were saying, just had to find something to point out because others have done so.
Like I always say, we tend to be s (or sheep, if you prefer). :-)
No offense intended to anyone in any way. I might fall under that too, I'm not sure. :-)
Excuse my English, as it isn't my mother language.

Cheers
Barbara

DejaVu, yes? Hmm.. Seems that it wasn't THAT long ago this same discussion ensued in this very forum. I admit I like having my ego stroked; in fact, it's one of the reasons I left R'osity..last time..thought it was becoming a real problem. Now, when it comes to giving comments, I know I get carried away at times, despite my efforts to "cool it"..but- hey, whaddaya want?! I'm Italian (the Irish is by marriege)- a lover of life and art..and all things beautiful. Perhaps I should change my personality- take some cool pills or something. Yes, I agree that it would be good to constructively criticize..and find the right words to describe what I see rather than what I'm feeling when I view an image..but the images that move me don't require a critique, in my opinion. For whatever reason they thrill me, and I don't believe I need to know about art..or the politically correct terms for critiquing..to be able to pen (or type) the expression of my feelings of excitement when I see a piece of art or read a poem that sends me into orbit. Well, Keith, you know you are one of my favorite favorites, but I'll never be an art critic. I just know what I like..AND, most of the time, I can find at least one element of a composition I like. I will try to drop the "masterpiece crap"..though, IMO, there are pieces that have been hung here that deserve such a handle. Season's Greetings, Linda

Still too busy to do more than race through the galleries and check the threads (selling/buying a new house and moving)...but I like this subject and the discussion it promotes. It does demononstrate where people are coming from and I think it does those new to art good to see the controversy and different points of view. It could prepare them for the ocassional nasty who just feels like making someone else miserable, and how to separate that from a genuine suggestion. Deagol, I admire your work, thus your opinion. I know far more about paint brushes than CG. With a pencil, I could tell a person how to correct something, a problem with layers, for example, would need to be pretty basic for me to even identify the cause. I would need to rely on someone like you to point it out-and PLEASE, add a solution! I would add something my father told me when I was in danger of getting my first bad grade: negative responses can be the quickest way of learning. The example was a guided missle tracking system (everytime it does NOT find the target, it adjusts its direction and tries again). He was a career Army officer, so what would you expect? Anyway, the result was I got a B in Trigonometry and no longer looked at negative feedback as personal or necessarily rejection. Just information, a signal to consider a different direction. Something to remember about praise from the Fractal community here: everybody adores fractals and can respect the work/expertise involved. In the world outside, it's mostly "what's a fractal?" So it wouldn't be realistic to expect the admiration to translate very well. So much for my $.50.