Attached Link: http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/common_room/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=000414

This is priceless... "After visiting sites like Renderosity, I started to understand that it takes too little effort to create something STUNNING from the first sight." Funny, I must have replaced my "make stunning art instantly" button when I worked on my render today! Oh the arrogance of this uninformed twit...

yup forgot the "make art" python script grrrrr..I just do not understand this whole slam about ONE BLOODY PROGRAM and those that use it. what IS the deal?

Well if it's such a crap program how can anyone make something "STUNNING from the first sight" with it?

Hmmm.... Interesting.... Uninformed Photoshop monkey, obviously. I'll get back to animating in my 'easy' proggie, now.... Epilogue. The End. Think about it. (rimshot)

I'm so sick of the people there. Them and their "more artful than thou" attitudes and their idiotic fear of digital media and their belief that they're superior human beings because they use traditional media. People like that and attitudes like that are part of why I went into graphic design rather than remain in fine art because, SURPRISE! I went to art school! But, hey, since I work in digital, I MUST be inferior and untalented and probably stealing food from the mouths of REAL artists who are struggling to make ends meet... roll eyes bonni

LOL...well that was interesting....well we all know that what we do isn't easily created. I am thankful I have Poser, Vue, Bryce etc. They all aid in my creativity and my joy. Let comments like that roll off your back guys, we know the truth and that is really all that matters. I commend you all on your great talents. Sharen

~twitches~ ohh it just PEEVES THE SNOT OUT OF ME. my god.....what do they think? they just....ohhhhh grrrrrpfffffffffffttthhhhhhhhhhhh ok so you can get something..half ok by clickclicking but by NO means get anything real from it with out working... WHY does one lil program cause so much malice and disdain? I am just so utterly boggled over this

Me thinks the lad doth protest too much. Wonder how well those folks would do in Poser? I think there is a lot of jealousy here. Marque

Well, they do have a little bit of a point. I must admit that after Ive spent days on a picture creating figure textures, lighting, a simple prop perhaps and other elements for a picture, I then often find a picture in the galleries that is so obviously made within a half hour yet looks fantastic. Often I find the artists bought every single element within the picture, right down to the pose. Ill know that the figure, set and lights are products, yet I see comments to the effect, I love your figure or what a great set. It makes me upset that someone can get so much recognition for so much work that they did not do. On the other end of the argument we have elitist artists who dont understand what it takes to make a nice non-bought poser image. They dont seem to understand that poser, Bryce and other programs are tools, just like a pencil or tube of paint. Another form of elitist disposition is very present at CGTalk, where if anyone new posts a fantastic picture, they are immediately demanded to post a wireframe view to prove their work as genuine.

Does that mean I have to get rid of my smock and beret? I liked E.Crellin`s answer to the rant-I mean question.

Message edited on: 07/13/2004 19:41

Unfortunately you'll run into this small minded-ness when ever you deal in a medium that depends on the human element for creation.... that is to say, you rarely get folks who will argue that 2+2=4 is infintile compared to 2x2=4.... Math and its friends the sciences consist of definitions and theories based on hard facts (okay that's a broad over generalization.... I've heard some of the theoretical math shouting matches... they're about as bad as 3 year olds shouting my daddy can beat up your daddy) Anyway, I guess what I'm getting around to is that as long as you are dealing with human beings, you will be putting yourself in a position where you'll eventually have to deal with someone whose self worth is based upon their ability to feel superior to their fellow humans in some way. My argument to these people who are vehemently against Poser Art or rabidly for it would be not to judge the tools but to judge the results. Any bozo can tube artwork with Photoshop, but that doesn't make Photoshop a tool only for hacks..... same with any medium... there are artists, there are flea market crafters, and there are cut rate hacks.... and we all can tell the difference I think ;P Sides, the good thing about poser? Your model only opens its mouth when you want it to, doesn't fidget, doesn't get tired, doesn't need coffee breaks, doesn't have an attitude, doesn't sneeze at the worst possible moment... doesn't upject when you want to rip out her hair and install a new wig or give her an impromptu nose job cause the shadow is falling funny ;)..... I don't know, one less human to deal with in the creation process sounds like great plan to me. ;) Wonder if poser will make a 'Poser Art Critic' so that we can get rid of this extra human too ;)

I was just telling a co-worker about the attitude towards Poser. The uninformed forum post is timely.

lol littlefox, you have some good points. You've said some of what is on my mind better that I could.

I have often found in life when people put down others it is usually a sign of insecurity and jealousy..kinda like pumping themselves up by making others feel bad..nice quality!
It doesn't matter how you create art you still need to have artistic abilities and a sense of composition. The internet is full of awful images.. all the programs in the world "don't make an artist".
I use Poser.. I am on about a third grade level. I come here and marvel at the images created. Some of them are breathtaking.. takes talent to produce something like that.
Don't let snobbish comments upset you...apparently some have an inferiority complex and are willing to share it.

SOS - different day. The Epiloge site has a history of snobbishness and stupidity about Poser. As always, it's not the tool, it's the artist. Is collage or silkscreen or photography art? How much "originality" does it take to make "art" for Epiloge? I make my own cloths, textures, and backgrounds. Custom morphs for the figures. And sometimes I even use a custom character or two (not that I'd ever post those anywhere, urggghhh). But I guess because I use Poser for one step, between Vue for the background and CorelDraw for the clothing texture, and Bryce for the final render, I'm not an artist. The occassional money I earn making a print or a webspace that uses some of my stuff must not count either. Idiots.

I've actually seen much more vicious attacks on Poser users than that one, usually by Max and Lightwave users (and I'm sure all their copies are legit, of course). ;) I suppose I can understand why those seriously studying figure drawing might have a problem with Poser users cranking out impressive art while they struggle with proportions and foreshortening, but I firmly believe that it's the end result that matters.

The day I see a so-called "elite" 3D artist make an image with as much life as this, as much emotion as this, or as much action as this one of mine, I'll rethink the whole 'art' thing. :)

SnowS

Those folks over there seem to forget that it's the arrangement that makes it art, not the tools that were used to make the arrangement. It takes a special eye to create an artistic arrangement. There's emotion involved in art, too. We don't just slap together prefab objects and render. We have ideas and visions that we form into something visual. That's where the art is, not the medium used to create it. Sheesh, when will they quit beating that dead horse? Bonni, you're right, it is an idiotic fear of theirs. They're insecure that something else will replace what they think is true art. Melanie

you wanna talk about "push button artist"

check out this guy.

You can bet he doesn't make any of his own models, textures and probably doesn't do any post work either.

he ain't no artist.

end sarcasm<

I'd post this there, but i have better things to do than register there.

I did enjoy my trip to a random image. It includes an image called "pisces". two fish swiming in a circle, black and white, not much for detail, hardly an original idea. There lots of fine work there, and this particular aritst has many other nice images, but after reading "This is supposed to be the best of the best, isn't it?" it seemed...humorus to find such a simplistic image.

First time I here this from 2D people. For some weeks ago I vas attacked by a Maya using troll how declared no art are made in poser. Its only to pose and render figures other people have made. In rely 3D art you must do all ting from the ground. In my opinion he have missing the concept of art. Its is imposing to see people how can create a human figure in 3D, its art but The creating of a scene and posing of a figure is also art. All steps in making a picture are art. In Poser you do not need the first steps butt some of the important middle and end steps are still there. And these steps are to create art independent if it is made in Poser or Maya.

First time I here this from 2D people.
For some weeks ago I vas attacked by a Maya using troll how declared no art are made in poser.

It's not the 2D, necessarily, it's the traditional media. 2D digital artists aren't nearly so elitist from what I've seen.

Oh, and everyone knows that Maya users are superior human beings merely because they use Maya!

My husband is a programmer, and has written serious, high-end plugins for serious, high-end programs, including Maya (among others). He's on a very private mailing list for Maya professionals, and we're talking SERIOUS professionals here (Pixar employees, that sort of thing).

On that list, they were recently discussing importing Poser figures to use in mockups and so forth, to get lighting cues, that sort of thing. One person said something about using a Poser-generated animation in a different context (for some sort of pre-visualization work). Someone else on the list even recommended a program that imports Poser figures to Maya quickly and easily. Not ONE person on the list said, "Oh, you used Poser?! You must not be a REAL 3D professional..."

The reason is that REAL, working professionals know that Poser is a tool, like any other. Use it constructively and it's a valuable tool. Yeah, in the hands of a talentless amateur, Poser is a means of producing utter crap, but the same can be said of a pencil or Photoshop or a paintbrush, so I don't see the difference.

Whenever someone gets all snotty about stuff like this I just think, "Well, you must not be a real professional in the field, or you'd understand the value of an easy-to-use, inexpensive tool that accomplishes what you need done!" Anyone who thinks that all 3D professionals just sit around modelling every single thing they use in 100% of their work from the ground up knows nothing about production schedules and effective use of time and money.

bonni
Message edited on: 07/13/2004 21:37

After..lessee..Terragen, Strata, Vue 2, Bryce 5, Poser 3, Poser 4, CD 4, Anim8tor, Doga L1, Wings 3d, Amapi 4.15, 5.15, Carrara Studio, Xfrog, Daz Studio, and I'm still leaving out several proggies..I know that I get so far, so good, and then get stuck..;) It's all about talent..right now artistry in Poser to me is having all my files in the right directories..;) I know I'll never be an artist, but hey, I never intended to be an artist..I intend to have fun..take that! monkey boy...;)

There's the old saying "them that can, do, them that can't become critics" It's been used to bash critics in just about every creative medium around, writing, dance, acting, art, sculpter, photography. It's all the same, just change the medium and the egos involved

Snowsultan, thanks for the links. I have to expand my gallery visits.

loved the slam at Rosity too. "this is Epilogue, not Renderosity we have standards to uphold." snotty elitist crap.

Well, I have to say, I have no talent in 'real world' drawings. I can't draw to save my life. It's horrible. I can draw clothes on a pre-drawn figure (in fact, it's one of my favourite passtimes) that I've traced, but that's about it. Once I drew a sword. It took me two months. That is why I love Poser. I can't draw, but I can think and imagine. I use Poser to prevent myself going crazy with creative energy. There are so many people here who paint their own hair and clothing on figures, I really, really respect that. But, I'll probably never be one of them. However, I do spend hours working on my pictures. I currently am designing a character to represent my brother's girlfriend's Everquest elf. He was watching me and said 'Wow, could you show me how to do that so I can make such and such'. I was like, 'dude, it's taken me almost a year to figure out how to make Vic smile without her looking bored or demonic'. It looks easier than it is. So, maybe I'M not an artist. But, it does take a certain amount of creative talent to portray emotion or movement or just simple beauty within Poser. You start out with a blah grey background and a naked figure standing in the shape of the letter 'T' and you can wind up with something that makes a person stop and stare. I'm proud of what I do with the program. There's a person in Toronto who uses human cadavers as statues and HE'S an artist. Last time I checked, there wasn't any rules to what qualifies as art. climbs down off of soapbox and scurries away

It's not "critics" that are the problem, though. It's people who think they can do.

In this business there are basically four groups of people: Pros, students, amateurs and wannabes. (By "amateur", by the way, I mean literally, namely, one who does it "for the love of".) Ignoring students for the moment, the number one difference between these is attitude. Roughly speaking:

• Pros cop an attitude over the quality of the finished product. (Or, if it's their own work, over deadlines, pay and conditions, just like any other employee or freelancer.)
• Wannabes cop an attitude over how you did it.
• Amateurs cop an attitude over world politics, menu bars on web sites or pretty much anything but the product.

Think of it like you're watching a magic show. The adults in the audience are the ones sitting back enjoying the entertainment. (If they're also professional magicians, they may be thinking "wow, this guy is good" or "I can do it better than that".) The adolescents, on the other hand, are the ones loudly insisting on knowing how the trick is done.

Message edited on: 07/13/2004 22:03

Amateurs cop an attitude over world politics, menu bars on web sites or pretty much anything but the product. Well, I agree with most of what you wrote, but this is somewhat unfair. That stinking multiple-image menu thing is a real problem for a lot of people and seriously degrades the site experience. I think what you're saying is that true amateurs don't generally argue about the product (images), but you shouldn't throw in stuff like this. It muddies your point. And by the way, web development professionals certainly DO cop an attitude about stuff like idiotically designed and slow-loading menu buttons. ;-) bonni

OK, just read this thread a few times and read the one over at Epilogue. After also reading the TOS and checking their galleries I have to say I see their point. (dodging a barrage of Daz tomatoes and Maya Dolls) And I see the point of the people posting in this thread too. (Hoping you take the time to see where I'm going) Check out kusanagi73 first post. The same snobbery goes on over here. And now we're putting down what snobs the Epiloguers are. And there's Plenty of snobbery in the Big production houses, and they too have some good reasons, sometimes. How often here have we said or heard someone say, "This image done completely in Poser/LW/Bryce with no Post work." Said with pride because we Do know how hard that can be to accomplish. But many times I think, "So what?" There it is, a picture representing hours of dedication with intricate models, detailed textures and a dynamic composition with all the warmth and emotion of ancient slag. It seems a very prevelent predjudice in certain forums here that "painting" is cheating. And at times, they are right too. I would like to see a trend here where those predjudices are seen for their true worthlessness and we get past these petty media wars.

"The same snobbery goes on over here. And now we're putting down what snobs the Epiloguers are." THANK YOU! I'm so glad someone had the balls to post this. Poser users are just as guilty of snobbery as ANYONE ELSE. I've seen it plenty of times myself. If someone renders a fantastic Poser scene in 3dsMax or Lightwave, there are a certain demographic of users here who either IGNORE a completely fantastic render because it's done in a "high end" app, or go about calling the person a "cheater" (using words that amount to about the same thing) for not using Poser to render it. MEANWHILE, these same people are postworking the hell out of their own renders in Photoshop, or rendering their stuff in Vue or Bryce! Why is it that someone who makes a TOP QUALITY render in say 3dsMax of Vicki in a temple gets snubbed in the galleries, while guys and gals who basically paint the final piece get high praise and 100 votes? It's snobbery, just like the kind you get from the "elitists". Anyway, I don't have any recent examples to give, but everyone knows that stuff goes on. People ask "what did you use to render this?" If the answer is Bryce or Vue, it's OK. If it's Lightwave or Max, then it's treated as if the guy was cheating? As if either of those programs has a magic render button. For those here who think like that, I might point out that it's often harder to get good renders in the high end apps than it is in the low end apps. There's many complex factors to deal with, and tons of options to choose from, which can confuse and frustrate you. Believe me, I work with them! So in closing, all I'd like to say is... if you see a 3dsMax, or Maya, or Lightwave user rendering Poser figures in the galleries, instead of ignoring them or thinking they cheated because they used a high end app to achieve the results, perhaps it would be best to leave a comment or even a little praise (if the result deserves it), because they worked just as hard on thier images as anyone, and the fact that their using Poser figures means their doing their part in breaking the stereotype. ;-))

"Better to argue with a wiseman than prattle with a fool". --Chinese proverb Or... "Never wrestle with a pig. It gets you dirty, and the pig enjoys it." - Anonymous bonni

LOL! I'm starting to feel the unofficial honor of being the hot topic killer as I seem to be the last or near last person to post on some of the long debates here. Maybe I should change my handle to "Thread Killer". It probably would make a better avatar than deci6el. I'm gonna take another crack at this even if I'm only talking to Maxxx. Hey, Maxxx. The massive population here is equaled by almost as many contexts that members are working in. When viewed all at once it makes an insane image where good and bad can not be defined because those pitiful evaluations can only exist in one context at a time. To those who are starting out here every render that doesn't crash may be a victory and being supported for that is beneficial when the sheer complexity of the work will make the less commited run away in horror. Meanwhile in another context those who make a living at this must hold each other to the same levels at which proffessional standards demand. That is the challenge if we are to make the forums a more potent communication. We have to try to understand what set of rules they are living in. Geez, I see this in print and it looks impossible. Example: "No postwork allowed". It often seems to me a ridiculous limitation and I have seen many good renders fall short of being a great illustration because they live in a set of rules that won't allow them out of the program. As an illustrator that seems stupid but as an animator it builds strength in not allowing a scene to go over budget as frame by frame work tends to do. Yep, I'm blabbering now, You either got it or didn't by now. Hope it made sense to some.

There have always been people who think they are better than all the others. If you react to that, it becomes your problem. If you don't, it is theirs. The more you are susceptible to other's opinions, the less your individuality is developed. Ever though of all those great artists from the past that suffered for their vision but were spit-out by society? Just do what you feel is ok for you, and ignore the rest. be happy you have many friends here at this and other communities. Many real artists live completely isolated, even today.

What does art have to do with time? Some people CAN create something amazing in just a short while, others take years of slog and still are not happy with the result. Art is not about which software you use, how long it takes, whether you are wearing a smock, or if you are in a studio or a corner of the living room - art is just art. If you see a picture and it makes you think - you know, it has that thingy about it, well that is art. If you see something and it just looks crap, well then it is crap. And everyone will see it differently! Yep, one man's masterpiece is another man's toilet paper - that is the way it goes. I create what I want with the tools I like using best. That is my descision and as long as I am happy with the result then that is that.

I DO agree with one thing in that forum- when You see in credits underneath a picture a list like this- morph by smb, pose by smb, light by smb, background by smb, brushes by smb... Hey! Did somebodz else thought up the title too? Thruth is sad and painful sometimes. I do not consider mzself an artist unless I make something myself. And that is a viewpoint I support. However, I do not believe that some artworks should not be accepted to a gallery. Every product of a human inspiration, be it produced from pre-prepared elements or cooked up from byproducts - deserves to be watched.

Photography is sometimes counted as art and photographers don`t usually construct the things that they photograph so why should 3d be any different?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=paulwillocks

Its ridiculous, ive got experience using most art related software, i also have a traditional art background. I 'KNOW' that I am an artist so I dont really let this discussion bother me.

At the end of the day I use Poser more than any other program because it allows me to express my ideas in a way that other packages wont.

Id love to see people who diss poser create similar images to the ones found in my gallery at the 'click of a button'.

I think they would change their minds about the program should they 'actually' use it.

Artists should never judge other artists in my opinion. They should just respect each others chosen style and media.

Anyway, lets not let it get to us, and lets just laugh about it. All you have to do is look through the poser gallery on a regualar basis to see that we are creating art.

http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=paulwillocks

Message edited on: 07/14/2004 03:51

A good photograph takes a lot more effort than composing something from ready-made things! It's not a walk in the park like many people may think. You take your digital camera, go to a forest, take a snapshot and voila! No such thing. Trust me - to get a stunning shot of a sunrise, you have to BE there, at that particular sunrise, have good lense filter to catch the flare... No, photographers don't usually construct the things they photograph - but photographers who are artists can take a picture of a well known thing, a sculpture everybody has seen, a place where everybody has been - and make it look as if it was something new, unique, made by them. THAT is art. To produce unique things, evoking feelings. I'm not talking of every picture made with Poser. I create in Poser for Pete's sake! It's just when I see a number of pictures with the same pose, the same lighting, in the same surroundings... Isn't it a bit more fun when You actually tweak the pose somebody made? Or play with the lights? Or change the tezture? It's not going to offend the talented person who made those things, on the contrary, a drop of creativity will make those prepared elements stand out, catch a breath of life. And, last but not least, the creativity will show YOU. The artist. Making something new and unique from lego blocks. Isn't it more enjoyable than point and click?

What really amuses me is how such a discussion can really tick people off. Why BOTHER what self-appointed elitist snobs thinks about Poser? Do YOU like Poser? Do you like what you're doing with Poser? Then WHY CARE what other people may think about it?

Personally I detest Picasso and Miro, I think it looks like something a blind drunk monkey has painted with his tail. But I do acknowledge that some people like it and thinks it's art.

Art, as everything else, is in the eye of the beholder. Why let it bother you that someone doesn't agree with you?

Message edited on: 07/14/2004 04:23

ernyoka1 - "What really amuses me is how such a discussion can really tick people off. Why BOTHER what self-appointed elitist snobs thinks about Poser? Do YOU like Poser? Do you like what you're doing with Poser? Then WHY CARE what other people may think about it?" I completely agree, however I think Picasso is excellent. lol :)

Well. if Poser users are not artists because they don't create everything from scratch, then I'd like to issue the following statement: Do not throw stones if you live in a glass house... I agree, Poser is a tool, and I love it dearly. But I will not hear painters7photographers tell me that Poser is not art. Fine, then your painting is not art either, cause you probably didn't make your brush from scratch, and you went out and BOUGHT your paint! shame on you! then it's not art, cause you were relying on somebody else to supply your tools. and photographers should not taunt me for using Poser because I am quite sure they went out and bought their camera, and I'm pretty darned sure they didn't create the person or mountain or tree from scratch themselves. So how dare they make our 'art' lesser when they're just as guilty as us with using tools? I'm not putting anyones art down here, not the painters or the photographers, i'm trying to illustrate a point, which I hope you all got ;)

Mariamus - I dont think theres a better way to put it, your spot on with what you just said.

"WHY does one lil program cause so much malice and disdain?"

Ah - because it's an amazing and powerful tool. And purists don't like 'new' tools since they feel threatened.

Analogy in the music world:

Witness the huge resistance to electric instruments when they first arrived on the scene - and then the resistance to synthesizers - and then the resistance to sampling.
But in the end even many purists learn :o) although smoe never get it.

Message edited on: 07/14/2004 04:57

Thanks paulwillocks :)

I agree with ernyoka1 and I dont like miro or picasso either. I dont like most modern "art". The real great artists would be turning in there graves if they saw the modern stuff.

The day I let someone like Becca Cox tell me what art is and how it should be created is the day hell will freeze over. Art is Art and it doesn't matter how it is created.

I think that 'true art' as a definition means, "to convay ideas or emotions visually" as long as you feel you have got your message across to the audience then it is art, no matter what the image or whatever looks like.

This is why alot of 'Modern Artists' are misunderstood. People are like "but thats just a line on a bit of paper!" etc etc. If you actually spoke to the artist to find out what the line on the bit of paper meant then you may well see the piece differently.

Ok I dont know if that makes any sense, but thats just my thought on art. Basically what Im saying is that no matter what tool you use, as long as you get your message or idea across then you are an artist and your image is art.

Its as simple or as complicated as you like!

Message edited on: 07/14/2004 05:47

Message edited on: 07/14/2004 05:49

My definition of art and artist: ART: Anything that is pleasing to the eye and makes a person either think or appreciate life. ARTIST: Someone who creates art (see above definition). If the way you paint your living room wall inspires someone to actually use their brain and think, then it is art. To me, it doesn't matter if someone used all bought pieces. They still had to spend time gathering those pieces into one image. For someone just starting out with Poser, this is a heck of a lot harder than you would think. Eventually, if this person does not get a bunch of negative criticism, then they will venture into the area of "creating their own". Kristta

paulwillocks: "then it is art, no matter what the image or whatever looks like. " I agree, and then after that everyone gets to discuss did it achieve it's goal or not. Did it achieve but could have been better, on and on. That's a system that works. The opportunity that's being missed, as I see it, is not that we join in a circle and chant python scripts till we drown out the voice of becca cox and the Evil Epilguers. I say, "Let 'em in!" Listen to what they're saying. Shutting them out and putting them down shows fear that they could be right. I took a look at their galleries, there's some great stuff over there that would be hard to paint and would really be hard to do in Poser_LW_Bryce. AND, they have there own versions of Vicki with a sword in front of a temple with a cyborg seagull standing on a futuristic pier in front of an alien sunset. If you've ever thought lately how the world is going to survive Al Queda and George Bush and becca cox, well, I don't think the answer is let's hate becca cox and all of her kind. I'm trying to say this without double rainbows appearing over my head. We, Renderosity people, have got to get over this us and them mentality. If you can do it here maybe it will seep into other parts of life. My brain is screaming for me not to send this but ****k_it. I do mean it.

My ? is..how many of the people are working for Pixar/Disney any of the HUGE modeling/animating houses...how many of these people actually have galleries in major art galleries...how many of these people actually are earning a living do there art???? And I mean a REAL living..not just showing there art on a street corner/flea market/or hotel and earning a living.

And I don't mean that as belittling anyone who does the above..sometimes that's how people get started..but still all these people that yak, It be interesting to know who is making a living & who is just plunking there stuffs on a website to be viewed.

I've known PSP artists to get advertising jobs in major magazines....so I guess that shoots down the people who think Photoshop is the 1 all be all of software. Just one of many exmaples that could be noted for all art snobs.

All I know is I find what I do as very relaxing & theraputic, so I could give a rats a$$ what others think. I find their behavior childish/immature & very high school cliquish(sp?)

Message edited on: 07/14/2004 08:10

In theory I agree, a line on paper can indeed be art to the artist and to those who knows what that line means. For the vast majority tohough, it's only a line. To me, art is something that is pleasant to look at (yeah I know: What a dreadfully oldfashioned idea) - allthough sometimes I really like an artist for his or her ability to paint "photoreal" stuff. I like art where I can SEE what it depicts, and nothing throws me more off than a heap of rubbish hammered to a canvas and then given a fancy name. The Emperor's New Clothes, anyone? But of course.. Some may think it's the finest of art, perhaps because they know what the artist meant, or because it somehow speaks to them. Some people will also "oooh" and "aaah" because they won't like to admit that they do not see the art in the garbageheap. Art doesn't need to be something you can touch. Art can be poetry, or a play. Some like Samuel Beckett, some don't (you may guess which category I am in...) Is it art when you put together some words and call it Haiku? Who's to decide? Again, if YOU like it, it's art to you.