Let me begin this by saying that I have been an avid anti spammer ever since I came online...I am bombarded by spam and even if hundreds of spam emails are caught by my server spam filter and blocked senders list,dozens slip through every day!So before I get started,understand that I am totally anti spam ok!! I own a site called Dreamslayerartworks.com which I found out was blacklisted by spamcop,a little site with grand ambitions of making the net safe for fascism everywhere!!!To begin,my site is non commercial and the only emails sent out are ebots notifying members of forum comments and and pm's...so how we got on a blacklist for spamming bewildered me because if members don't want the ebots they can make a change in their profile to stop them!What I was told shocked the living hell out of me as it seems I can be totally innocent,all it takes is an accusation and they even say they don't need that...they can blacklist me for having the letter "a" in my domain name!!They don't need to verify that the claim is factual,they aren't responsible for their actions and they aren't required to remove you from their blacklist even when they find out you are innocent!!If you share a server with up to a hundred other sites it doesn't matter,if even one of those sites is accused of spamming they can blacklist every site on that server!!Their reasoning is that they are trying to pressure the server hosts to do more to stop spamming even though spamming isn't illegal and they have no legal reason to do what "spamcop" wants as long as the activity is lawful...they can be sued by the site owner and spamcop doesn't care. The idea here is simple,persecute the innocent with the guilty to force the innocent to put pressure on their server host to act...but again,they don't need proof that anyone has even committed a crime,just an accusation!!To me this was mind blowing and even if I missed a few finer points because I was throughly pissed,I've had several people check the spamcop forum thread and all were shocked to see their response...in the end,their suggestion was to have my host change my sites email server,I do not see the reason why based on what they say because just one report of a spammer on the new server can get us blacklisted again and we'll be just as innocent!!! We are talking about an organization established to combat spam people...not to establish some totalitarian dream for a little goose stepper who wants the power to nail anyone he pleases because he has the power to do so!!!As an avid anti spammer myself,I am totally opposed to this way of thinking to stop spam and if you want the freedom to surf sites online you better pay attention to this issue as for my site it doesn't impact me at all...it impacts the members,they are the victims here not myself!The ebots are a convenience only and being blacklisted in this regard would be a pathetic joke if it weren't for the petty little minds behind the site that did this!!So,if you use spamcop or some other service to help filter out the junk you don't want,remember...these jackasses could also be blocking sites you want to recieve email from or if you're a site owner,they could block you from reaching your members!!You and only you have the right to decide who you recieve email from~no one has the right to make that decision for you unless you ask...and if you ask,they should still be required to act with consideration to law and ethics!! So if you're not recieving email from sites you expect email from,chances are they've been blacklisted and these "vigilantees" aren't required to tell you or even the sites themselves that they've been blacklisted...I remain anti spam but if this is the only way to combat it,I'd rather trust my server hosts spam filter and my blocked senders list so that at least the power to decide remains in my hands~not some fascist McCarthyistic blacklist that harms the innocent more than the guilty! These are my opinions~but you are free to post your own pro or against views!

I have been a customer of Spamcop for years now. I pay for a filtered account with them, and I think it's well worth it. Spamcop is not a "little" site, and they've been online since at least 1997 (possibly longer).

Spamcop only block IP addresses. If an IP address is reported as spamming, it goes into the database, and if no more complaints come from it, it eventually gets removed. I'm not entirely sure the technicalities of it, but I suggest that you go to the Spamcop site and read up on their FAQs if you'd like to know the details.

Spamcop's list of IPs known to have been sending spam is free for any ISP to use, and some do so quite irresponsibly. They just filter without allowing people a chance to see what's being rejected, and that necessarily includes a number of "false positives" because no system if perfect.

I really suggest that you learn more about Spamcop, who they are, and how they operate before you throw around words like "fascist" and bringing Nazis into it. It's a worthwhile and valuable service, and without their services, I'd be drowning in the hundreds of spam messages I receive every day. Thousands of other people also use their service and millions of spam messages are reported to the originating ISP because of Spamcop.

bonni

Message edited on: 09/11/2004 21:07

Attached Link: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

Well..thank the Gods I use "MailWasher"! :)

MailWasher is a nifty little program, but it's not automatic. That's why I use Spamcop. The stuff goes into my spam trap and then I go through a couple times a day (because I do get that much spam!) and report all the spam and forward on the legitimate mail (which is just a tiny percentage of the volume in the spam trap). The spam all gets reported to the originating ISP and to Spamcop's databases.

I've seen people bitch about Spamcop before (and the spammers really, REALLY hate them for obvious reasons). The problem is not with Spamcop, who just collect data about IP address that are sending spam (and by the way, I went and looked it up, and an IP address only stays in the database for 3 days; it remains there ONLY until there are no more complaints against that IP address). The problem is with the ISPs who implement the filtering without allowing users to view what's being rejected or be given a chance to add it to a "pass filter" list.

bonni

Message edited on: 09/11/2004 21:51

My cable ISP provides its own spam filtering.

Seems to work.

My several-years-old dial-up account -- which I've maintained, but will soon cancel -- has no such built-in spam protection.

Over time, I've been offered many things.

It's amazing just how many former ambassadors to Zaire, ex-Sri Lankan generals, and Kenyan postal officials attempting to flee the country want to transfer tens of millions of dollars into my personal bank account -- just so that they can get the money into the US.

I'm sincerely flattered. It's frankly amazing that these people have ever even heard of me.

I suppose that my pitiful 3D Art has made me famous in Africa, as well as in various small third-world island nations. That's why they are offering such substantial sums of money to me -- and all that I need do is to provide them with my banking information!

However -- I haven't taken any of them up on their various offers yet.

I'm waiting to see which one of them will give me the best deal overall.

First let me say that this is not a matter of my professing innocence...they freely admit that my site isn't spamming anyone!!!The only emails sent from my site are ebots for pm's and forum comments...there are no ads and in fact I pay for the server I use rather than use a free server for this very reason. They justify adding my site to their blacklist because there could be another site on that server that that does spam...but of course,there is no proof of that either.They freely admit thay can add a site to their blacklist for any reason...that anyone can make a complaint and that alone is enough to put you on their list...even if you prove you're not spamming,they aren't required to remove you! They provide me with no proof of anything except a list of three "possible" sources that may have sent them the report...three other spam reporting services and they can't even tell me which one sent the complaint cause they don't know themselves apparently!!So...where's the verification that you would think they would need before adding a site to a spam list???There is none and even if there were,you would think they would be required to provide at least some proof to justify this. As for my ref to nazi's and fascism...its only within a totalitarian atmosphere that blacklists are created that knowingly place the innocent with the guilty and burn them all regardless!!To say that because one site on a server is a spammer and that this justifys blacklisting every site on that server is ridiculous!! I notice that Eliza once again has jumped in to refute what I said without even reading what was said...the reason for this post was due to a forum thread on their site in which I spoke directly to these people and they told me these things themselves!As a subscriber of course you have no problems Eliza...you haven't had the joy of being a site owner who gets blacklisted by these people when even they admit you're probably innocent but that doesn't matter!!Course who cares if the tracks are greased with the blood of the innocent,at least the trains are running on time...thats why I referred to them as fascists and nazi's,they don't care if you are innocent nor do they care to set things right,they have the power to do things as they want and there's nothing you can do about it! But then,me and Eliza have gone at it before...if I say its raining she'll come in soaking wet complaining of sun burns lol~thats not an attack,just a humorous over view of every time we address one another in a forum~one day we will either agree or Eliza will actually win an argument with me but that day won't be today;P The trick here is to understand one thing...they themselves say you don't have to do anything wrong to get on their blacklist,you can be completely innocent as their goal is to force site owners to suffer so we will put pressure on them to do more to stop spam~legally they can't,spam isn't illegal in most cases even though certain abuses can be!!So,by their own admission its not a matter of right or wrong...its a matter of abusing their own authority to achieve by coersion of honest site owners to achieve what they cannot acieve on their own!

And Bonni...again you missed the point!They state openly that it doesn't have to be me or my site that did this...it can be any site on that server and we are all blacklisted!Now,if you consider ebots that you willingly optioned to allow be sent to you spam...then I totally agree!!But then again...you'd be a fool for thinking that and even though we always disagree I have never thought you a fool...I find you very knowledgeable and generally courteous to people you like,you don't like me though so you generally pick a point to disagree with in some statement I make and then go on the attack.

Your choice...never wanted you as an enemy so guess I'll go do a copy and paste to prove my point.And its been longer than 3 days:(

Message edited on: 09/11/2004 22:14

I don't want automatic on my spam filtering. While my mail is still on the server, I can pick and choose which ones I want to read and delete/bounce. I love the freedom it gives me.

Most good servers do their own spam filterring now and they save your emails on their site so if something you were supposed to get is accidentally filterred,you can go in and get it.My friends were surprised in fact when I told them that the ebots sent to them were bounced back by spamcop...they never saw them and know our site doesn't spam~I would never spam our members!You no longer need to pay for services like spamcop and maybe thats why this happened...a little overzealous to prove their worth in the face of ISP's that offer spam filters every bit as good and for free!

Message edited on: 09/11/2004 22:20

You missed MY point.

If other ISPs were not using Spamcop's filters improperly, there wouldn't even be an issue.

it can be any site on that server and we are all blacklisted

Didn't I say they blacklist by the IP address? Yes. Anyone at your IP address who has been spamming enough to keep the IP address in the database will cause the entire IP address to be blocked. But unless people are using Spamcop's statistics and information, there would be nothing blocked anywhere. I can keep a list of merchants to boycott (just as an example), but unless people actually use my list and act on it, who cares? Same with spam lists.

bonni

Message edited on: 09/11/2004 22:25

I don't want automatic on my spam filtering. While my mail is still on the server, I can pick and choose which ones I want to read and delete/bounce. That's exactly what I get with Spamcop, except that I can also report spam with one click. bonni

Attached Link: http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2602

That's swell, Bonni...but I also don't be wanting to pay a Monthly/Yearly service charge for this stuff either. :)

My point Eliza since you commented while I was away...its your choice to make,not theirs...they made this choice on their own and my site is blacklisted for everyone using spamcop whether they want the email or not

Hey -- reading spam can be fun!

(But I like reading the dictionary, too.)

Just think of the satirical aspects of the situation.

And ask yourself: why does anyone believe this stuff?

I understand your frustration, and I did read the thread you provided. I also see that they summed up what I've said here with this: his/her e-mail being blocked by another ISP that is using the SpamCop DNSbl in the tool-set of anti-spam traffic control It's some ISP doing this. It's not Spamcop doing it, other than they have the IP address in their database. Something at your IP address is generating enough spam to keep the IP address in the database, and some ISP is using that information to block mail. my site is blacklisted for everyone using spamcop whether they want the email or not Actual Spamcop users can very, very easily move "wanted" mail that gets incorrectly put in the spam trap into a list of "always pass" and it'll go right to their inbox from then on. People who have the misfortune to have ISPs who are using the blacklists without their knowledge or consent should change IPSs. bonni

I also don't be wanting to pay a Monthly/Yearly service charge for this stuff either. I hear you. ;-) I run my own server, though, and there's a charge for incoming bandwidth. Having tons of spam sent to the server just for me to delete it would be needlessly expensive and time-consuming. Instead, my husband and I both have accounts at Spamcop and all our mail gets sent there, where it's filtered (think of the spam trap as just a folder that spam gets put in; it's super easy to go through and put the non-spam - when there is any - into some other folder, and also put it on the "always pass" list), spam can be reported immediately with a single click, and the webmail service allows me to read the mail and sort it on the server (or I could forward it somewhere else or download the filtered mail directly from their server). So for me, it makes more sense to just pay the $45 a year for both accounts and keep the junk off my actual server. However, we do NOT use any mail filtering/rejection on our server, because we haven't got a means for users to see what's been rejected, and the idea of legitimate mail being rejected is, in my personal opinion, irresponsible. bonni

Xenophonz, I actually write poetry with spam. The rules are that I use the subject lines exactly as I received them, no alterations, one subject line per line of poetry. I've gotten some pretty amusing bits of poetry that way. :-) bonni

I've gotten some pretty amusing bits of poetry that way. :-) When life gives you spam, make something useful out of it. ;-)

I use Thunderbird email software from mozilla.org - and it can be set to send all email not listed in your address book in the trash, or deleted. That's what I do, and am not bothered by spam at all. Thunderbird is a free download.

Well Eliza I do agree but just got an email from an ISP that somehow got our sites IP address from a list...not some service.Maybe they went on the sly and got their list from another server...I am also glad you understand my frustration so I'll set my sharp teeth aside since they aren't needed.The issue Eliza is that my site generates no spam at all...nothing and thats why I have been so angry about this.If my site sent out any unwanted emails,the members themselves have the option to stop it.We don't send out mailing trying to get new members to join and only recently started a newsletter,but this preceeded the newsletter by quite some while. They offer no specifics with which I could address this matter with my server host save to say "duh,spamcop said to talk to you about it" and sit here like a dullard as my host says we have no idea what they're talking about!Its not my site Eliza,its another site on the server apparently...but I need to know who or even if this is actually going on.It could also be a matter of defining spam...everyone defines it differently~so what if a site on my server is being reported for spam when by general consensus what they're doing is seen as spam by only one person?Like I told them,give me something to work with here...maybe my server can segregate the spammers to a server seperate from the rest of us!I mean,spamming isn't illegal right...neither is it illegal to put known spammers on a seperate server!! There are other options here that could be pursued but Eliza it really comes down to one issue...they represent consumers not site owners and if you read the other posts in their forums you would know that some of those consumers are quite rabid~they don't care if its legit or not,ban them all is the attitude you get in there.Heck on the original link that was posted on,the admin actually had to come in and tell them to calm down and defend someone who was trying to say he wasn't a spammer. But in the end it comes down to one thing Eliza,this doesn't affect me it affects the members of my site...they're the ones not getting the ebots and its a direct result of being on that list.I think if you read their comments it basically came down to one thing for them...we agree your site may be completely innocent and that there could be only one spammer out of hundreds on that server~but what would you prefer us to do~do nothing and allow our subscribers to be spammed or ban everyone on that server to protect them!!By that token,what if their "members" also recieve email from other legit sites on that server...might surprise you to know,but most people don't look in their spam filters unless they have a reason becasue the reason they have filters is so they don't have to look at spam. My server host already said they would consider segregating known spammers to a seperate server...but their records indicate that there was no advisory to them about the alleged spammer and they prefer not moving me to another server because they agree,it would be stupid to move me to another server not knowing if it to was balcklisted or would become blacklisted in the near future.Why is it that I have to come up with an answer like this...don't you pay spamcop to actually use their heads,its a simple answer!Telling me to talk with my server host with no information on hand is a dumb answer you must admit...they had no idea what the hell I was talking about and said they hadn't been contacted by spamcop on this matter.

Oh, one other thought on the matter of Spamcop. This is a quote from their own forums: SpamCop does not, nor can it, stop e-mail when an IP address goes on its blocklist. Only an admin of the mail service can do that (and SpamCop advises against it!) Once again, the problem is not with Spamcop's service (which is responsible for reporting millions upon millions of legitimate spam messages to their originating source IP administrator). The problem is that irresponsible or unaware system administrators, in their attempt to keep spam out of their system, implement the filters with no checks and balances, with no means of their users "opting out", without fully understanding what they're doing, etc. Quite frankly, irresponsible or incompetent system administrators are very, very high on my list of peeves in life. They make like difficult for everyone, from allowing spammers to use their machines to send the junk to begin with (through carelessness or ignorance) to implementing aggressive filters that allow no leeway or discretion on the part of the human beings who are supposed to be receiving the mail. Spamcop is a valuable tool in the battle against spam, and the spammers know it and hate them for it (they had to put their system behind a very secure series of firewalls because of the continual bombardment by spammers trying to shut the system down). They do produce a list of active spammers and it can be extremely frustrating, but in this case, I think it's another case of spammers making life difficult for everyone. Spammers are the absolute scum of the internet, as far as I'm concerned, and I've been on the net for more than ten years, I've worked at an ISP, and I run my own full-time server, so I've seen a lot of scum out there... ;-) bonni

Thunderbird is great but I can't use it lol,it crashes all the time so been waiting for a new build.I do use Firefox though...a far superior browser when compared to IE with none of the security issues and tabbed browsing~man am I impressed with Firefox and yeah~if you consider that spamming I'm spamming lol. If anything comes of this topic,maybe we can generate a lot of ideas superior to what spamcop offers and free of cost...Firefox blocks 100% of all pop ups,pop unders and so far haven't been hijacked once since installing it.If Thunderbird delivers as promised and as so many people say,then I believe its a better option as Mozilla has a sterling reputation for protecting the people that use its products.

Elizabyte...I think I'm having a heart attack...I fully agree!!My views I admit are born totally out of frustration and anger that I was branded a spammer...I still do believe,however,that if spamcop offers this list that they should make a better effort to verify that the claims are legitimate and find a better way than lumping everyone on a server together on a blacklist (by the way,they do call it a blacklist which in itself is a stupid move because you saw what I associated with that when I got angry). There are better answers Eliza...my ISP for instance not only verifys every url added to their blocklist,they also report false findings of abuse when they find it and say that spamcop is one of the sources they used to use before finding so many sites listed that either in their opinions weren't spammers or in fact were maligned because they don't consider three spam reports out of millions of emails sent to be spam...know what,they're right its not.Maybe you don't want to subscribe to Archaeology Magazine,but that doesn't make an offer direct from their official site spam because there were three complaints.

Should also note that my server also offers free Macafree anti virus scans on my email that act as a secondary defense to Norton...this plus a free spam filter and unlimited internet service for $19.95 a month with no additional fees or long distance charges.In fact my only complaint is their homepage is ugly lol...here's their addy http://newweb.sonet.net/ and want to know,would this be considerred spam;P

would this be considerred spam Actually...that would be a 'plug' ;) And I agree about the spammers, and I love my Firefox.

Well,got another message from my server host stating they are actively trying to be removed from this blacklist but it could take up to 48 hours and could still result in us being blacklisted if the issue cannot be resolved as in order to resolve this they have to verify that someone on the server is spamming and to date they haven't recieved any information or reports from spamcop so that other than my reporting it...they knew nothing about it and I honestly believe them as they are one of the best server hosts online with a sterling reputation. And thanks jumpstartme2...just goes to show what I was saying,someone else might say it was spam if recieved in an email or a complaint were made that it was spam.

Spamcop's system, just for interest, does have built in checks and balances. For example, before an IP address gets added to the blacklist database, it has to be reported from multiple users. I'm not sure what the precise algorithm is, but I think I read somewhere that it's something like ten users within an hour. If an IP address has no further reports, it's removed from the database within three days. Spam can come from an IP address in many ways, including someone's insecure mailform (you'd be amazed how clueless people are as to securing something like that!), a compromised server (such as through a virus or intruder), and sometimes other means, usually some security hole somewhere. It may not necessarily be "a spammer", per se, but that "some spammer" managed to rape the mail server or otherwise force their way into the system. When spam is reported, and emailed report with the headers and the first several lines of the message is sent to the abuse department of the originating ISP. This serves several purposes, including alerting the system administrator of possible compromises to their system. Once an administrator replies to the Spamcop system (and sometimes to the reporting party), there's a note added to the database to that effect (i.e., problem has been dealt with) and the IP address is removed. I once reported my OWN server accidentally. I just slipped up and clicked the wrong thing and suddenly I'd reported my own IP address. Guess what? We weren't added to any black hole or blacklist as a result. On the other hand, our server was compromised a few months ago via a security hole in a script that we had running (by the time I learned about the hole and patched it, they'd already gotten in). They were fairly incompetent and managed to craash the mail daemon, but before that happened, they did spew out a fair number of spam messages (dunno how many; probably a few hundred). On that occasion, we WERE added to several blacklists, but once it was seen that no more spam was coming from our IP address, we were removed and it's all clear now. My point is that while no system is foolproof, Spamcop is a useful tool for controlling the flow of spam, when it's used responsibly. bonni

Eliza,I served six months in jail in 1989 and lost everything I had because of a false accusation,I was further victimised because in order to win release I had to plead guilty to a third degree felony because the courts refused to hear my case even though all the evidence proved me innocent!!My mother recently died so this is not the time to start accusing me of something I didn't do...what it comes down to is that these people are ignorant.Want proof?They say they blacklist nobody right?Ok,on every pm that has been returned I get the following... Remote host said: XXXXXXXX Your server st03.startlogic.com [XXXXXXXXXX] is listed by the blacklist bl.spamcop.net. Please contact your Dial-Up/DSL/Network ISP Provider Now Eliza,does it or does it not say that the pm was rejected because we were on a blacklist provided by spamcop??They further asked me to post a pm in their forums but I already know that if you leave enough info on a posted pm that someone can use it against the person it details so I sent it to them by pm...the admin responded by saying that I had provided nothin that he had not found on his own yet all he found was the server IP address because he entered that in a site search...they asked for the bounced pm and the info it contained,these are only available within the server and on my computer~and they did not ask for my server IP address. Basically what gets me here Eliza is the I dunnos and the guesses...it makes these people sound unprofessional...then to say read the faq and make comments that contradict the faq is stupid.I sent them a copy of a pm I recieved from a server admin I wrote to in regards to this issue,they removed me from their blocked list and the guys at spamcop made it seem like I was lying because they thought the sentence structure was wrong somehow...maybe I should have just forwarded the pm to them but by this point they had already berated me for sending them no more info than what they had when they didn't ask for my ip address,they asked for one of the pm's! Basically I wanted simple answers and they didn't seem to know their ass from a hole in the ground.If there were any misunderstandings on my part,who is to blame for this?You cannot reply countless times that you do not blacklist anyone when the rejected pm's themselves hold you as the sole reason the pm was rejected.I can send you a full copy of the pm Eliza to see if you find any other possible answers if it suits you...but you read the replys in that link I sent you,did they or did they not repeatedly say they don't blacklist anyone?Of course there are other reasons and the server could be at fault...but this is not what they were saying save to read the faq and its not them doing it.Is this any way to handle public relations when someone comes to you with a valid complaint...then your own actions,ignorence and behavior fuel the anger of the person who came to you?? Its a simple matter...what do the rejected pm's say,they say they were rejected because of the spamcop blacklist which they insist they have no part in to the point of almost saying they don't collect the info themselves?Then to have one of your own regular informers reply saying "ohh,I send in sevral reports a day and I'm sure that other conscienscus members of the site do the same"...erm,wouldn't these be known sources (they claim they don't know where they come from basically) and where if anywhere does it say they validate these reports or do anything to protect sites against false reports or abuse?When I asked who made the report they basically played dumb...I dunno (could actually hear Scooby Doo saying that as I read it)!

I'm sorry that this issue has apparently set off emotional triggers for you. I have some emotional things of that sort, as well, and it's very difficult to think straight when you're seething because of that kind of thing. It's very clear to me that nothing anyone says will make any difference to you, however, so I'm done trying. I mostly posted in this thread so that other people who read it would be able to get at least something of a counter view. I wholly encourage people to visit the Spamcop site and read through their forums, in fact. It's pretty informative. If an IP address is sending spam and there are a sufficient number of complaints, it gets added to the database. If no more spam is sent, it gets deleted. If other ISPs use the blacklist irresponsibly, the mail from legitimate senders gets blocked irresponsibly. Unfortunately, this is all down to the fact that spammers are scum of the earth who use any means necessary to spew forth their filth. If it means breaking into someone else's server, they do it. If it means using someone's insecure mailform, they do it. They don't care who they hurt or how much of other people's time and energy and bandwidth they waste. If you want to get pissed off, get pissed off at the relentless and sleazy spam-senders who have taken over the net to the point that extreme measures are necessary. bonni

" I wonder if an addendum to Godwin's Law is in order... The longer a forum exists the probability of a daily comparison, involving Nazis or Hitler, approaches 1"" New version of the Godwin's law: Goldwin-Kawecki law: "The longer a forum exists the probability of a daily comparison, involving Nazis, Hitler or Bush, approaches 1" If you wish, you can eliminate Nazis or Hitler from above, Bush is enough.

People who have the misfortune to have ISPs who are using the blacklists without their knowledge or consent should change IPSs.

Color me ignorant, but if it's "without their knowledge or consent" and they "should change their ISP" -- would you like to explain to me HOW I would KNOW to change my ISP if it's without my knowledge or consent to begin with???

I don't know you from Adam but you certain give a glowing report of Spamcop to the point this poster has the impression you are on their payroll. True or not -- doesn't matter that's my impression. As an American, I'm entitled to that freedom.

Point being.....looks whether real or preceived -- hurt just the same.

Still want you to tell me how I would realize to change my ISP if it's without my knowledge or consent. You make no sense with that comment.

would you like to explain to me HOW I would KNOW to change my ISP if it's without my knowledge or consent to begin with You could ask them. "What sort of email blacklisting or spam filtering do you employ?" And when someone says to you, "Hey! Your ISP bounced mail I sent you!" that might be a clue, too. :-) I'm not on their payroll. Rather the contrary. Perhaps you should read the rest of my comments in this thread to see precisely what my position actually is. bonni

Yes, I would ask and realize that people will say anything to make a sale. You mean that you've never bought a product or service that failed to live up to your expectations after you bought it?

If I found out that my ISP was filtering and/or blocking mail I wanted to receive, I would change ISP. That was my only point with that comment. bonni

You now write......If I found out Yet, you initially wrote....without their knowledge or consent should change IPSs. First, I'm to change something when I'm not even aware of it -- but now you say...."If" you found out.....THEN you'd make a change. Yeah, if I attempt to apply logic to your thinking then I should have the foresight to realize there is a problem going on that I'm not aware of and then make a change once I found out...... You make so much sense.

I hereby apologize for whatever it was I said or did to upset you. It was in no way intentional. I don't even know you, so it certainly wasn't personal. If I miswrote all the hours ago that I wrote that, I also apologize. Possibly I was being distracted by the many other things that are going on around me as I write. bonni

I'm just commenting on the fact that I fail to see the logic in your comments. Trust me, takes a lot to upset me and if you had -- you'd know it.

You speak of how nothing anyone can say will make a difference to me and yet you did not address what I said in regard to the fact that the bounce messages all say that the sole reason they were rejected was that I had been added to spamcops blacklist,yet they insist they have no blacklist and were not involved in my site being on a blacklist!!I argued with them and now I argue with you that they are the ones saying things that "contradict" their faq so why in the hell would it make any difference for anyone to go there and read up on them??? Also,you must remember that this company was on the verge of collapse not too long ago until they were bought out by people whose sole motivation is listed by them as this being a "money making opportunity"...I wonder why they were on the verge of collapse if their service is so valuable and the service they provide desired by consumers? It is also a fact that because spamcop is doing this and making money fighting spammers that the spammers are using their very existence now to argue that consumers who don't wish to recieve spam have a means to block them...thus,legislators are increasingly inclined to ignore this issue and look only at possible abuses. The area that I disagree with you Eliza isn't that you were providing the pro to my con...its that you did so to the point of totally ignoring valid points that I made against their service while I at least listened and agreed with you several times. The point here is this,regardless as to how it happened these people feel that they have the right to blacklist every site on a server because just one is a reported spammer...and even then they go by a number of complaints and do nothing to actually verify if the complaints themselves are valid.They admit they recieve millions of reports of spam yet it only takes ten complaints in an hour to get you on their list...not ten complaints every hour from what I read,just ten in one hour and then there are three days in which if "no" complaints are registered they'll take you off.And what if it is a virus or some other issue...how will I know if I'm not recieving rejected pm's and they don't inform me I'm on their list?? Further,you keep saying to change ISP's...my ISP isn't doing anything illegal here and they're a damn good host,so why should I change servers when that will cost me money??I hate spamming but you fail to address the fact that these people are not violating the law...thus,if they are not violating the law and these people are taking the law into their own hands its spamcop itself that is violating the law now isn't it!! You fight spamming Eliza by fighting to have new laws and regulations created to restrict or limit its usage by defining abuse...thats been one of the biggest flaws those fighting spam have had because they're angry and want it all stopped!You can't stop spam anymore than you can legally stop businesses from putting sales papers in your PO Box,its legal Eliza so you have to fight it legally and not take the law into your own hands or else you become as bad or worse than the problem itself! "It's very clear to me that nothing anyone says will make any difference to you, however, so I'm done trying." Umm...you mean you were trying to make me set aside my grievence and agree with you??I don't see anywhere where you agreed with me that their policys were wrong and that they made incompetent,inept decisions even though I provided evidence that they did just that.Its very clear that you will defend these people regardless of the abuses they commit and your answer basically is for honest people who have done no wrong to change ISP's that legally have done no wrong because an anti spam service says they have and has taken actions against them...actions which in turn are themselves illegal because these actions can cause irreperable damage to honest businesses. I found one case where an ISP was added to this blacklist without anyones knowledge,a business owner was in the middle of a very delicate deal that was worth almost half a million dollars...suddenly communication with the other party stopped,the deal fell through and only later did they find out that they had been added to spamcops blacklist with no warning or any bounced emails because the people they were working with didn't realise the messages were now being filterred. In my case and apparently the case you presented about what happened to you,spamcops actions are an inconvenience...but to some people it can be life threatening.Lets say that a hospital goes on that list Eliza...people could actually die because some valuable communications are blocked due to spamcops vigilante actions.Again...spamcop does not inform people who are added to their list that they will be added or have been added,they themselves admit that unless you get bounced emails there's no way for you to know~but of course,just because your emails are blocked that doesn't mean they will be returned either! And kaweki,you seem to think that comparing this action to fascism is either a joke or in error...but you don't even try to argue that its not.I genuinely win arguments with people because all people inherently take sides while I don't until one side or the other proves themselves to be at fault!This discussion with Eliza,I am in full agreement with her on spam but she cannot bring herself to agree with me about the problems inherent within what spamcop is doing...thus,she took a side and no matter how wrong she is or if there are better ways,she will stand by these people and actually make my case for me by blindly supporting them. Why do I compare spamcop to the nazi's??The nazi's came to power by taking the law into their own hands and trying to overthrow a legitimate government and its laws by force...for all the problems that afflicted the German people,their system of law was not at fault~it was the law makers.Most of the people that the nazi's persecuted were guilty of no wrong,but because a few of their number may have been as the nazi's portrayed~the German people gave them their blind support!When you have a service that may punish hundreds because of the actions of one whom they know nothing about...when they don't even verify that this one is guilty of anything other than the accusations of a few people~isn't that exactly what the nazi's did?? Basically spamcop can be summed up as follows in regards to what they do. #1~They collect data from complaints made about spamming without verifying the validity of those complaints. #2~They collect the IP addys of the alleged offenders and post them on a blacklist. #3~They then submit this blacklist to ISP administrators around the world and then deny that they are involved with the resulting actions~actions which would not take place if not for their list and the fact that many ISP admins wrongly trust that this list contains only "confirmed" spammers! I summed it up by saying "they don't burn the witches,they just spread the rumors and lies that cause others to do it on their behalf"!So maybe this issue isn't important...then your child dies because the hospital fighting to save their life was added to a spamcop blacklist and valuable minutes or hours are lost because no one knew!And yes people..."THIS CAN HAPPEN" because spamcop does not verify the IP addys are spammers nor do they have a system in place to determine who the people are on these lists to prevent such a thing from happening!!

You can't stop spam anymore than you can legally stop businesses from putting sales papers in your PO Box,its legal Eliza so you have to fight it legally and not take the law into your own hands or else you become as bad or worse than the problem itself! Stands up and applaudes Armorbeast. Good post, man! So, true, you don't like what's in the mail -- you throw it out. Or, you can restuff the usually prepaid envelope with junk and send it back to them. They have to pay the postage to get their own junk back. Doesn't get you off the list but it gets a point across. I treat junk email like junk regular mail -- either hit the delete button or hit the trash can. Same thing. Funny thing -- you look at the trashcan outside our mail area on Thursday -- it's OVER FLOWING with ads and flyers. When will the senders get the hint? Maybe when we as CONSUMERS say something.

If you wish, you can eliminate Nazis or Hitler from above, Bush is enough. Oh good God Kawecki....ya gonna say that Bush is now responsible for SPAM??!! Jesus Christ...find something better to do with your time, than hijacking threads that have NOTHING to do with political garbage....

Lol...actually I don't like Bush or Kerry,but I wouldn't lump Bush in with the likes of Hitler by any means~he may be somewhat ignorant and accomplished nothing for us on domestic issues,but that isn't a party issue~those are character flaws;P

Actually Litehouse some legislators did take the hint,in some states there are now restrictions on how much advertisement/junk mail can be delivered to people.This is in response to landfills overflowing and trying to recycle paper to help the environment...as well as people complaining about the junk mail lol.

The trick here is to think that way...find a way to legally force legislators to create new laws that prevent spam from being sent in the first place or at least restrict it.

One way would be to require all online advertisers to submit their IP addys to a legitimate service or government bureau...then a list of approved senders can be created and sent to ISP's to all nations participating in this.Thus,if these people are not an approved sender they're email will be auto deleted by your ISP because its not on their approved list.Of course there may be problems here as well,but it is a new direction to pursue...could also require server to give each site on their server a unique id so that only the guilty party could be targetted by anti spam services.

Its what I mean,targetting the innocent with the guilty is wrong and the current set up at spamcop does violate the law in this regard being that spam in the first place is not illegal.The objective again here is to pursue new possibilities to stay ahead of the spammers because I assure you,they are always looking for new ways to get around any effort to stop them.Spamcop has employed this system for some time now and any two year old could have figured out to do what they're doing as an answer...they have a bad system,they don't employ anyone with foresight to find new and better ways to combat spam~and they don't care who gets hurt by what they're doing!! And Eliza,if you hadn't noticed,I am pissed off at the spammers...I'm also pissed off about how spamcop conducts itself and you don't seem to care about how abusive that process is and you won't until a hospital that sends out its own online advertisement gets blacklisted and someone dies as a result.

Message edited on: 09/12/2004 13:44

you don't seem to care about how abusive that process is and you won't until a hospital that sends out its own online advertisement gets blacklisted and someone dies as a result. Armorbeast, speaking as someone who has directly worked on a transplant team for over 25 years....I would like to say that you are entirely correct that it won't be long if it hasn't happened already -- when our physicians say to a family member -- sorry, there is no tissue or organ available for your loved one and have it be a result of a computer/ISP/spam glitch. Eliza, what would answer be if you were on the receiving end of that comment and it was your loved one? Would it be the responsibility of the ISP, the spamcop or the user of the ISP? Think about it.

"you won't until a hospital that sends out its own online advertisement gets blacklisted and someone dies as a result" I for one would never deal with a hospital or other supposed health care provider who has to get business by sending advertisements to millions of people. IMO if you are in the condition of being close to death from whatever medical problem and you choose a hospital because they are the ones who sent you ads instead of doing your own research as to which one provided the kind of care you are looking for then I think you have more serious problems. ("you" being the general person who would do this and not an attack against any specific individual)

Attached Link: http://www.mailwasher.net/download.php

Message edited on: 09/12/2004 14:10

FYI -- a high percentage of hospitals and surgeons that I have worked for and still work with use an email network to see what organs and tissue are available for immediate transplants. It is a USA wide organization and enables us to better serve our patients. It is NOT ADVERTISTING. It is making other's aware of what tissue is available for transplant via email. If our server gets blacklisted as spam -- then we don't get emails regarding tissue/organs that are available. Wake up and smell the coffee -- we don't "advertise" -- we EMAIL AVAILABILITY. Totally different IMO.

I love being spammed by anti-spam ads -- advertising for anti-spam services.

"Don't you just hate spam? Well, for a small monthly fee, we can see to it that you will never have to worry about receiving any spam -- ever again!"

Midnight...you obviously don't watch tv or look in your post office box much I assume??Hospitals advertise everywhere...even the local three room hospice will advertise and its only natural they will advertise online as well.Its not a matter of you even knowing they advertise,its a matter that because they do and complaints are made that they get blacklisted.It doesn't even need to be them...could be a virus on the server,could be that they share an ISP,could be any reason and the result is the same~they get added to a blacklist because no one verifys who is actually being added and no one informs you that you will be or have been added.Thus,through no action or fault they get blacklisted...then in a crucial moment when they rely heavily upon their computer to communicate with another person they find that this communication is a one way deal~why,because they were just added to the blacklist in the middle of their discussion. I had Mailwasher and if my ISP didn't offer such a service I would suggest getting that...also,the aforementioned Thunderbird is equally good in this regard from what I hear.But above all else,why pay someone to make these decisions for you?There are many "free" services now available that allow you to do this on your own and do it better...there is no blacklisting!!I mean get real,I live in the Bible Belt and I damn sure wouldn't want a bunch of Christian moralists adding sites to a blacklist because of their moral objectives...sites like this would be on that list for sure as rosity I know for a fact is on their sh**list!!Who has the right to decide what you view? If you want to pay spamcop for a service that you can do yourself for free and do it better,if you want them to blacklist sites that have done nothing wrong and if you want to run the risk that their actions could ruin legitimate businesses or even cost someone their life...by all means you're welcome to it!!But that does not mean the rest of us must suffer for your ignorence...you don't target the innocent with the guilty and then say "so what" when most of those targetted are innocent.

XENOPHONZ...I love you man lol,yeah funny isn't it that the anti spammers use spam themselves~I wonder if spamcop will add themselves to their blacklist;P