I have been trying hard to keep my nose out of this whole situation and just be another observer watching as this new situation unfolds, but I finally want to say something about it... As much as many would like to pin this entire online store cleansing situation onto PayPal, I think it involves a lot more than just that and please allow me to explain In the early days of Internet Marketing formed, much of the online transactions taking place on the Internet revolved around adult content. As such, many online Merchant Account Services saw an increase of Credit Card Fraud and Charge Backs. MasterCard and, in particular, Visa needed to reform their Merchant Account regulations in order to stem the tide of loss. So they targeted the business that produced the largest amount of income loss from Charge Backs and Fraud, which was the adult industry, by imposing heavy fines on the companies that catered to that business and provided to them Internet Merchant Gateways for credit card processing and lobbied higher percentages per transaction on the owners that run adult websites. As such, there is fewer and fewer Internet Merchant Account companies and banks willing to provide services to adult companies. With that being said, PayPal (like any other Internet Merchant Processor) needs to make sure that they conform to the terms dictated to them by Visa and MasterCard to continue to process orders and act as an Online Bank hence the strict terms that they enforce upon companies like Renderosity who use and rely on their services to cater to their customers. As such, and keeping all of that in mind, I dont think PayPal is the sole reason for Tim Choate and Renderosity changing the Marketplace on this website. Taking a look through the Online Store here for the past few years, Ive noticed a marked increase of adult products that were for sale here products that defied and were hypercritical to this websites TOS and I am amazed that Renderosity was able to escape the notice of their Merchant Account provider and PayPal for as long as they have. It is likely that a member of Renderosity or a multitude of Renderosity members decided to complain to PayPal about the sort of products being sold here, putting Tim Choate and Renderosity under PayPals microscope of puritan business practices and, as such, raised some eyebrows. Furthermore, if PayPal felt that the products being sold here were adult in nature and dropped their Merchant Support, than Renderositys other Internet Merchant Account service wouldnt be too far behind, leaving Renderosity unable to continue sell products from their Online Store without finding another Merchant Account Service Provider and, as such, suffer larger penalties, fines and percentages in their day to day business. In short, dont blame Tim Choate, PayPal or the credit card companies, but blame the individuals who abused and continue to abuse the system that makes it necessary for these rules to put into action. Nor is this the end of the world, or the end of Renderosity lets not forget that Renderotica was created to be the sister site of Renderosity to draw a solid line between and provide a place for artists and members who wanted to display erotic and adult artwork without offending the sensibilities of those who preferred a more family oriented place to be a member of. While this situation may be unfortunate for some and fortunate for others, this situation might actually provide to both owners of Renderosity and Renderotica (Tim Choate and Diane Griffith) an opportunity to maybe work together and stabilize the Community and, maybe, figure out a way in which to work together to provide further benefits to the Communities that they serve without the animosity that I helped to create between the two sites. Just my thoughts on this Jack

Good points, Jack. I don't think anyone has been blaming the site's adminsitration, though. (At least not from what I've seen) Mostly the threads have been a "this really sucks" kind of thing. ;)

I think it rather depends on your definition of "adult" here. The point has already been raised that the policy change affects things like skin textures. The sale of sking textures perforce involves nudity, but there's nothing "adult", in the sense of X-rated, in simple nudity. If the fuss were entirely about sex-toy props then maybe. But when you get into the proportions of flesh that may be visible, we are getting into worrying territory.

I have been watching all these threads as well. I found it very hard to believe that PayPal was making it a mission to "clean up" the internet (boy that would be a hard road to hoe). This will be done with the fazing in of .net (but that's a whole differant discussion). I had a very strong feeling that it had something to do with losh of revenue. I doubt PayPal gives a rip what transactions take place through there website as long as they make some money and it's legal. Thanks for shedding some light on the real story Jack. Cheers, Joe

If I were to speculate as to precisely why this has occurred, then I would be guessing.

I don't know why the management of RR has made this decision. And I doubt that I ever will know the full story.

But it's their choice to make. It's their business. Whatever the reasons.

On the other hand -- as customers, we have our own individual choices to make.

My shopping cart/wishlist has a lot of stuff in it.

Looks like noone is actually guilty for this shame. Well I do blame the site administation. In serious bussines the manager who losts just a piece of percent of the company's market and sales gets a kick in his ass. You don't have to be a prophet to realize that the administration of this site is throwing away aprox. 30-40% of their market and future income if not more. But it looks like they have to see the numbers on their bank account first to stop spreading stories about broadening their customer's base. For the beginning they should check their own what's hot list. I even think that maybe they even won't survive this strange experiment. Also - at this very moment there are probablly milions of real porn sites on the web and they all accept payments by Visa card. Actually - you probably won't find a single one which doesn't. Looks like milions of all these website managerers know how to get a merchant account with Visa, while people who run this website, don't. It's also true that even e-bay, the owner of the pay-pal, sells erotic an porn stuff. So please - stop telling me these funny stories. We all have accees to web. Renderosity should throw away it's incompetent manager not its sellers, custumers, market, income and the good name. And the good name is the reason why I wrote all this. I think that the last thing the community around this site needs and deserves is the extradition of half of its sellers and members just because someone there doesn't know how to run bussiness over the web. I'm not intererested in any 'deep behind the scenes' reasons for this new 'policy' of intollerance and stupidity in the webstore. The fact is that I'm - as an artist not as some porn maniac - as a customer, not as a seller - deeply insulted by their - excuse me, please - sick - new rules. These rules are not published on my Visa card or on Paypal's website, they're published here, on Renderosity. And I do have a right to blame people who run this site - becuse they are obviously the ones who think that they may prescribe me what I may see and what I may not. Sorry folks, but please keep your mental problems for yourselves, I'm not interesting in sharing your sickness. And if you're really not the ones who invented these rules I still don't know why you allow yourself to think that you may simply pass them on me? Forget. I've just checked my account, I bought 238 items here. I left here at least 2000 $. I wont spent my money here anymore. I don't choose my poser stuff seller by % of naked breasts in it's webstore, I choose it by its tollerance.

Ales-

I think you need to consider truly how few options Renderosity has in this case. If I were involved with the administration of a site this large, I'd probably do something similar because:

1. This is an international community. Without PayPal, Renderosity loses their ability to cater to the bulk of international customers.

2. Not everyone has a credit/debit card. It's easy to lose track of that when you don't live on that side of the fence, but in the city I live in there are many many people living on the edge of poverty. Most of us who are into digital art sacrifice a lot to pursue it as a hobby or a career, with what little we do save going to overdue hardware and software upgrades. If PayPal is the only feasible solution, then I'd rather deal with their policies (as an administrator) than to deny people the ability to pursue art.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think anyone is happy with this. Renderosity certainly didn't set out to damage their own business, but PayPal is putting them in a precarious position, and forcing them to make uncomfortable choices.

All that we can do as a community is to support them by offering them viable alternatives, and showing our support for those alternatives. Maybe that sounds like a hard path to follow, but this angry girl will be walking down it, if any of you would like to join me.

As a soon-to-be content provider in this community, I'm already researching payment gateways for our store front. I fully intend to let the administration of this site know of every viable alternative to PayPal that I can find. However, the only way for an alternative to be truly viable is if the customers using the PayPal service show a willingness to switch. EDIT: Copy from my editor goofed my post a bit. Edited to correct.

Message edited on: 11/20/2004 22:44

We follow the tos here, but they also have a tos to follow...and if it says no nudes or no paypal it's good business for them to get rid of the nudes. They will not go out of business over this. There are plenty of new folks to take the place of those of you who are leaving. Good luck in all you do, I will stay and continue to buy here. I don't personally use paypal but as stated above there are plenty who do, and I for one would not begrudge them the right to appease the poser addition. 8^) Marque

few options ? as I said - there are millions of real (!) porn sites on the web this very moment and please find me a single one which doesn't accepts Visa. second, you said : This is an international community. Without PayPal, Renderosity loses their ability to cater to the bulk of international customers. I say : pay pal is far far, very far from being international. it covers just a few countries. it even doesn't covers all europe community coutries. I'm from one of eu countries but I cannot get pay pal's accunt because they don't cover my country. but I do have visa. by my opinion, being a seller and sell only by paypal is a suicide. I could't buy in phil'c-s store for years - as long as he offered only pay pal payments. as I said - tried to get a pay pall account but it looks like for pay pal owners 3/4 -ths of the world doesn't exist. in my country even people without a job may get a special kind of visa card - visa electon - especially for payments over the web - it's not a credit card but they may spent as much as they put on their bank accout. again - I don't believe in stories about merchant account problems. if people who run Renderotica may charge cards for selling this stuff I don't see any reason (or excuses) why people who run Renderosity can't. I see only two answers : a.) people who run this site is incompetent. b.) people who run this site lies - they invented this whole story arround merchant account problems just to carry out their sick restrictions.

or c.) they're greed. they think that they will make even greater bussines with the pay pal. no they won't. the comparative advantage of renderosity has been exactly its broadness and openess. there are plenty of poser stuff stores on the net but the renderosity is (was) the most outstanding one. now they're doing everything to become just another poser stuff store and nothing more. but it's ok with me. i'm only sorry for their cut-off sellers now before christmass. it looks like they don't care very much. but they do care about pay pal. so much about the community. but the second half of the bill comes to rederosity also. I'm only afraid that it will maybe be too late. but it's more and more their and less and less my problem.

Ales, I am the person who created Renderotica and, no offense, it was a serious pain in the backside trying to find an Internet Merchant Provider... in fact, when I owned that site there were at least 2 individual occassions where I was dropped by my current Merchant Account Provider because they could no longer support the heavy fines and penalities that they were suffering from Visa and MasterCard because they catered to 'Adult' companies. I was dropped without any warning and unable to continue operating a business without a Merchant Account until such time that I could find a Merchant Account Provider that would handle our 'Adult' account. Yes, the Porn industry is an 11 billion dollar a year business in the United States alone. Accounting for Adult Movie sales, Adult Products (toys and such) and Internet Websites. However, there are those in position of power that would like to see that abolished here in the States (Tom Ridge comes to mind right off the bat here) and, as such, they continue to search for ways in which to reduce that business, if not through legal means, then they do so by making it harder for the individuals to profit through banking means (frozen assets and accounts) and difficulty in finding banks willing to accept the risk of providing a Merchant Account to 'Adult' content providers. Renderosity, Renderotica and sites like them, as well as, the millions of Adult content websites out there do not deal directly with Visa nor MasterCard... we deal with banks. Banks that must maintain a certain 'air' of creditability and banks willing to act as mediators between Website owners and Credit Card companies. As in all business, he with the most money is able to make the rules... in this case it would be Visa and MasterCard and the banks that provide us the Merchant Accounts to cater to our customers. As owners and desiring to stay IN BUSINESS we must conform to their rules and abide by them. I don't think for a moment that Tim Choate got a wild hair up his ass and woke up one morning and said: "GEE, I've got an idea! Let's piss off our vendors and customers, reduce our monthly income by at least 40% and pay homage to PayPal's puritanistic views on life and business!!" No... Tim Choate right now is probably going: "Crap, I hate this just as much as they all do. This is going to cut into our profits and reduce the service that we can provide to our membership... this really sucks the BIG ONE." The thing is, I am sure that Tim Choate is probably happy that Renderotica is around right now, as I am sure that many of the vendors and customers who purchase the items in question are. Tim being happy because of the potential sh*t storm that could've really have happened if there wasn't a place where his vendors could continue to sell their 'adult' products and customers can purchase them, while still continuing to sell their non-adult items here on Renderosity. And again, as such, maybe we will see a mending of sorts between the two sites and their owners from this... also, this means that vendors who didn't want to produce 'adult' style products are now able to stand a chance and make it in the top twenty without having to sacrifice their personal morals. But, again, in short, Ales, yes... sites like Renderotica and Pornographic websites are able to accept Visa and MasterCard from their membership... but it is costly to do so and there are risks of their bank deciding to drop them without notice. That is the risk that we as 'Adult' Internet providers face every day... and Renderosity shouldn't have too, nor should they, being a 'family' site that they are and not a 'porn' site. Jack

Jack:

Good words again, but I'm afraid they're wasted in this case. Sometimes the people who fight so much against intolerance are the least tolerant of differing views. There are several other discussions to be had where participants are showing decorum, that one person shaking their fist accusatorially in the street screaming "GREED AND OPPRESSION! NAZISNAZIS!" isn't a worth trying to convince. ;)

I mean, why write a book trying to reason with someone who believes that an "incompetent" group of people who "invented this whole story arround merchant account problems just to carry out their sick restrictions" for the sake of "greed" is a convincing argument?

You can spend the rest of your life trying to explain that Renderosity's losing an ass-load of money, or that incompetent people generally can't run a site with a membership this large (occasional incompetence I could believe, but general incompetence is a bit much).

But there's really no need to make those arguments, because in order to believe that Rosity's engaged in a grand conspiracy to diminish their market-share for the sake of prurience, and yet haven't edited or locked posts where I'm asking where I can get a SeaBiscuit 9000 AC charged vibrator, a person would have to pretty... um... immune to reason. ( Now wasn't that a diplomatic turn of phrase? )

Softriver, I couldn't agree with you more and I rather enjoyed your 'diplomatic turn of phrase'. :o) However, my reply really wasn't as much for Ales, but rather more for those who might be reading this and are not clear on the way that things really are and the jam that Renderosity and Tim Choate find themselves in. I'd rather inform those people as to the true situation, rather than leaving them to believe the way that Ales does. Ignorance only breeds more ignorance and as someone that isn't ignorant of the situation, I consider it my responsiblity to help try to educate those who have a desire to understand the truth of the matter. :o) Jack

Well, Jack, currently I am ignorant of where to find one of those SeaBiscuit 9000's, for um... educational purposes. Apparently the only place that sold them signed PayPal as their gateway provider, and, well, we know all about PayPal. So, if you know the truth behind that situation, please enlighten me, preferably in a package involving a plain brown wrapper. =P

Thank you, Jack for your time and your kind explanation. I'm a bit in this bussiness also. I undarstand what you're saying and I admire your experiences in this bussiness but by my opinion steps taken by Renderosity are w r o n g . Looks like they want to stay a huge site but unable to recognise what made them huge. I just can't imagine Renderoisty without sellers like Billy T, ect.... I wouldn't buy Renderosity's shares at the moment. They grown up because of these great sellers not because of the pay pal. It's not a question of survival - it's a suicide. Of course, Tim Choate haven't got up one morning and said: GEE, I've got an idea! Let's piss off our vendors and customers, reduce our monthly income by at least 40% and pay homage to PayPal's puritanistic views on life and business!!", but the current result on the Renderosity is exact the same. Also - the public relations and all other methods are mostly very strange. In case of real care fot community and people I would expect some organised kind of moving part of the selling programme to Renderotica instead of pushing vendors to close their stores and go away feeling offended. And finally - the majority of customers don't know anything about these brave new restrictions - they lost a great opportunitty to make huge final sells before their sinking into dark ages with a 'reliable' merchant acccount provider. I've just read also other 'understanding' postings. Let me say one thing: I don't have understanding when someone tries to carry out his restrictions on me or anybody else. And I don't care what's the global reason for them. If all the people would share the same principle there won't be pay pals (or renderositys, I don't care) with their sick private legislations.

Then why are you still here? Just curious. You sound like a troll spewing the same sentence over and over. You have no store here, no free stuff contributions, no gallery. In fact the first time I've heard of you is now. Hummmmm. Marque

No offense, Ales, but you really are taking things to the extreme here about this situation, almost to the point where it would almost seem as though you have some sort of axe to grind in regard to this website and towards Tim Choate... and again, no offense meant here, and in all honesty, I know a thing or two about having a valid chip on one's shoulder about this website and it's owners and I just can't see the validity of you having one stemming from your arguements in this thread. Heh... me defending this website and Tim Choate... who'd have thunk it? :o) I think you are failing to understand, Ales, that the steps that Renderosity is taking are steps that meet and adhere to their own Terms of Service of this website. I will agree with you that this situation NEVER should've occured... not because what they are doing is wrong, because it isn't. But because Renderosity became side tracked from its original intent and purpose, making it NECESSARY for them to enforce these restrictions. Unfortunate, yes, but certainly not really worthy of lighting torches, grabbing pitchforks and storming the castle as it seems you would have people do. What the owners of this website are really doing here is RECONFIRMING and ENFORCING the terms and conditions what had always been the BUSINESS PLAN of this website, which was to run a 3D and Poser Friendly 'Family Style' website. As in any business, one can sometimes become side tracked from their orginal business plan. Sometimes making a poor business decision or try something that might inadvertently conflict with the orginal intent and service that business was supposed to be providing to its customers... and sometimes, it takes a third party to point out that pitfall so that it may be corrected before it becomes too late. In this case it was PayPal... and as such Renderosity is getting back on track with its original business plan. Let's put it this way. Renderosity was clearly selling adult related products... there is no other explaination for such things as bondage items, sexual intercourse poses and fetish outfits... and as such, those products being sold could and most certainly would hurt this website. As the orginal owner of Renderotica the hardest thing I ever faced in running an adult website catering to Poser and other 3D Programs was finding sponsors and forging partnerships with the very companies who's products our members used. Zygote, DAZ, Curious Labs, 3D Studio Max, Lightwave and all the others don't want to have their companies associated with an adult company because, like it or not, it would effect their own business and partnerships. Crappy as it may be, it doesn't change the fact that it is true... it would. Renderosity continuing to travel down the path that they have been in the selling of 'adult' 3D Products places them in a position where they could loss their partnerships with the companies whose products make this website the valuable asset that it is, which would mean no more Curious Labs involvement, Vue involvement, DAZ involvement and anyone else that Renderosity has forged a partnership or sponsorship with... Keeping that in mind, think about the money this site would truly stand to lose, as well as, the value that this website is able to provide its membership from it's corporate partner and sponsorships that they would most certainly lose by continuing to sell adult related products and TELL me that Tim Choate is INCOMPETENT, UNSYMPATHETIC to the needs of this membership, or a POOR BUSINESS MAN. The fact of the matter is this, Tim's recent decision probably just insured that this Community would be the first to get an inside peek at Poser 6, or any new version 3D software coming out, as well as, contest prizes, give aways and secured the future of this website for you all to continue enjoying it for another 6 years. Yes, the decision may hurt the site finacially for a couple of months. It might be inconvient for members wanting that sort of product to now have to go to Renderotica and, yes, it means that vendors are going to either have to sell their 'adult' products elsewhere... but LONG TERM, this business decision, only insures this website's survival and that is something that should be considered before you go and get a chip on your shoulder... ...otherwise, the alternative is to be ostrosized by the very industry, and companies that make up that industry, who's products you advertise, support and bring value too... ...just like Renderotica. Jack

Yeah, and if you want a see a really screwed up site, check out ours right now! I mean, our store isn't even functioning right now ("parse error?!@ wtf is parse error?!@#") my forums change shape every three days ("oh sure, css is convenient to all you people that know how it integrates with XML, but to the rest of the known world, integrating multiple scripts with php and xhtml and a bunch of other letters on a Unix box is NOT USER FRICKIN FRIENDLY!"), and the only artwork we are currently displaying is a five minute mock-up to replace the logo that was already there!!!

I've gone to school for three years and the absolute best piece of work I can display for it right now is HER and Behemoth standing around with hair?!?!?!?! (Mad props to sixus1 for the free fig's btw)

whoof

That felt good.

I need to go back to looking up the words parse error now.

Cheers,
Jean

"I think you are failing to understand, Ales, that the steps that Renderosity is taking are steps that meet and adhere to their own Terms of Service of this website." I have to admit, Jack makes perfect sense here.

Now also consider that Paypal imposes a $500 dollar fine on any site site breaking it's mature audience TOS. This fine was established on 8/23/04 and went into effect 9/23/04. So Renderosity may not be suffering from greed. They may need to protect themselves and thier merchant by taking these steps. It might seem exteme, but given Paypal's track record with freezing accounts and the merchants needing that money, I'd say it's probably wise.

They may need to protect themselves and thier merchant by taking these steps. It might seem exteme, but given Paypal's track record with freezing accounts and the merchants needing that money, I'd say it's probably wise. You mean the track record that includes the class-action lawsuit or the three class action lawsuits currently pending? ;) "Paper jam?! Why is it saying paper jam when there is no paper jam?! Damn you SQL!"

Bingo, Softriver. I keep my paypal account for when I want to buy things, plus it helped that when I ran a Ventrilo Server, that was the easiest way to handle billing and member contributions to said billing.

Chargebacks are a huge problem for "adult" online transactions. People buy a porn site subscription, then change their minds later. Especially when the wife sees the charge on the monthly credit card bill. They claim fraud and get their money back.

Also, the porn industry is the one used by con artists. Often the Russian mafia. They set up a site, sell yearly subscriptions, then take off with the money after a few weeks or months. The customers get irate when they try to go to the site and get a 404, or when the site is not updated for months. They demand their money back, and it's the credit card companies that take the hit. (That's why MC and Visa cannot be used to buy annual PC memberships from DAZ.)

Visa and MC will deal with porn sites and sites that sell (non-porn) yearly subscriptions, but it costs a lot more. You have to jump through a lot of hoops and put up a big security deposit first. Can't blame them for wanting to protect themselves, but it's a pain for legitimate businesses. And PayPal's method of screening out the fraudsters is a bit heavy-handed. No nudity at all, not even nekkid mesh. But unlike MC and Visa, all their business is high-risk online transactions, so perhaps they have to take a harder line.

P.S. Given the realities of online fraud, it's like that any online pay service, were it to become widely used, would suffer the same problems Visa, MC, and PayPal have suffered.

The only fix I can see is for a credit card company or online pay service to set up strict security requirements for its customers and transactions. The drawback to this is that it annoys people, and would probably keep a lot of people from signing up. People wouldn't want to fax a copy of their drivers' license and wait several weeks before they could open a PayPal account. And they would get annoyed, having to call to confirm each online transaction they made.

Still, that might be open niche for a PayPal competitor.

Family oriented 3D community, eh? I seem to remember one like that, I think it was called "Poser Forum Online". They were a big hit. -WTB

Heh. Having Jack defending him is probably making Tim paranoid as hell. ;]

"Tim Choate is IMMORAL also. And someone have to say this." - ales

[tongue in cheek] Damn straight. About time someone did. (oO) [/ tongue in cheek] We must stamp out the immorality of refusing to sell pr0n at all costs! Where's mah torch?

"Heh. Having Jack defending him is probably making Tim paranoid as hell. ;]" ROFL @ Ironbear Yeah, I am sure it just might be... and believe me, it even surprises me. Ales, I seriously don't expect you'll be in business very long with your skewed perspectives on business and management... or likely to find many with whom would share your views. Jack

I'm in the bussiness long enought that I may only laugh on such remarks. And I wouldn't call the current situation on Renderosity a great bussiness achievment. People are able to notice achievments by themselves, but you named this thread - PayPal situation not so grim... . So you all there know very well that pople are at least a bit confused because of your current policy and achievments.

I'm actually impressed that you made it through several entire lengthy posts, Jack, without a single mention of a horse, a stable, or home remodeling anywhere in there that I could see. ;)

Yeah, I'd have to say it's all still pretty effing grim, regardless of who's to blame. The bottom line is that RO will now provide less of a service to it's customers and merchants. -WTB

Well, ales, while your statements haven't inflamed the masses against Renderosity's latest announcement, you can rest a little easier knowing that you have at least effectively demonstrated their need for automatic spelling and grammar correction... And as I see it: that sumpin' what is good for teh bussiness! (Damn... and to think I broke my self-imposed "no snark" rule for that)

Nah, no mention of a horse, stable or home remodeling improvements from me this time. Guess Diane's influence has been rubbing off on me! :o) LOL!! Personally, I don't know what's more confusing to me... Ales' last comment or how NASCAR's Nextell Cup Point system actually works the way it does... ;o) Jack

To Softriver: It was not my intention to inflame masses against anybody. I only expressed what I think about their current policy. After all this a forum. And maybe I'm more concerned about the future of this site than you are. And I really hope they will be able to retain the majority of their sellers here. After all maybe they are really that clever as they say they are. Great idea that automatic spelling and grammar correction. I'm from Europe. And in such discussions you native spekers are in great advantage. BTW - your parse error is also just a simple spelling php problem. Some ; , ; or maybe even } is missing somewere. And to Jack: it's typicall type of reaction for people who run out of arguments.

"And to Jack: it's typicall type of reaction for people who run out of arguments." Actually, I am not out of "arguements" but, rather, don't see the value of continually trying to debate with you the importance of Tim's decision to keep a merchant account in order to continue to have a business for ALL vendors, as well as, the value of new Renderosity membership which would purchase product from those vendors through sponsor and partnership participation from such companies as Curious Labs and Vue, thereby increasing store sales and website membership. But, plainly, there is no need for further debate with you since you only have tunnel vision when it comes to this sort of business and no practical experience in this field... and why waste my time. So, as Bill Engvall always says, Ales, "Here's your sign." Jack

It's ok with me, but if this site loses vendors like Billy T, Bat, ect... or if these people will be forced to produce school gear, this will be your sign also.

"or how NASCAR's Nextell Cup Point system actually works the way it does... ;o)" I wouldn't complain too much; under the old rules, that asshead Jeff Gordon would've won - bleah. Ales - WTF, 'mano? It's not your profit margin, nor your business plan that's facing the big hose here... so, err, why the continued kicking about it? If the site loses vendors, those vendors (in the interest of keeping the money coming in) will find somewhere else to sell their goodies... sure, it's a minor interruption, but otherwise life goes on, eh? /P

I have to agree with Jack and anyone else who reminds us that Renderosity is merely living up to its TOS. I also can't help wonder why this is really such a "new issue." Years ago, these same concerns and policies were announced at other Poser web sites: Animotions and PoserPros for example. Those sites are still around.

I don't have any problems with this policy. Yes, I don't like the image of PayPal bullying people into submission, but that's not an accurate image. Oh, and I never use PayPal anyway. There is nothing wrong with going to Renderotica if you want erotic stuff. I go there once and awhile, yawn, and don't go back for another few months.

Message edited on: 11/22/2004 09:42

"Years ago, these same concerns and policies were announced at other Poser web sites: Animotions and PoserPros for example. Those sites are still around." - Bobbie_Boucher

Kind of, and yes, they are. In the case of Animotions, it had nothing to do with PayPal: we wanted a site where the kidlets like my godkids could also go and discuss 3D, Gaming, and Comics, so we instituted a PG-17 policy almost from the beginning. We had to make an announcement a bit later to the effect that "Yes, we really did mean this". Concerns on stuff like the "Big Three"'s view on fanart were a long ways down the list: we don't get any money from them, they're not sponsors, and they're not involved in our business. Renderocity has a slightly different concern here: PayPal is heavily involved in both Rendo's business model and in Rendo's merchant and customer monetary situation. Tim and Tammy have to devote some thought to that in their busienss model: at any given time, Renderosity has hundreds or maybe thousands of dolars tied up in PayPal transfers in the form of customer payments, and payments to merchants. If they don't make it a concern, it's not just Tim and Tammy Chaote's bank account that gets hurt, it is also the accounts of the merchants and customers who suddenly have their monies frozen for 180 days or more. AND those customers and merchants won't be yelling at PayPal primarily: they'll be yelling at Tim, Tammy, and ClintH. ;)

Eeek! Jack and Ironbear defending them. I think Tim's Paranoia Meter just pegged off the scale. ;]

There are two other issues to think about: 1) The hypocracy of the current TOS. It's perfectly fine to sell adult poses and products, but you can't upload an image using those same products? Why? Non-official reason: products bring in money, images make the site look like an "adult" site. How many times have people posted a message complaining about how their images were removed because of a TOS violation... even though they were using products found in the Marketplace? 2) "Renderosity is a porn site" reputation. The conversation goes something like this: "I sell 3d models." "Really? Where?" "Renderosity.com." (pause) "Um, is that a porn site?" "No, of course not. Why do even ask?" "Well, when I went to the Marketplace page to look for your stuff, I saw that the top selling items were naked women, lingerie products, fetish outfits." Then you have to go into a big explanation that these things are only 3d objects. And, no, I don't know why these things are so popular. Fine, I'll find another way to show my models to Grandma and my 5-year-old nephew, Timmy. --John

You're missing one of the key elements here, John. Everyone is. It's all Jack's fault. Everything is Jack's fault. He's the Dark Evil High Lord of Poser Commercialism. He planned all of this. Jeeze. Get with the Plot, people.

sigh Why is it still always my fault, I am no longer involved in Poser? Why me, Lord? Why Me?? Jack

We have to blame someone, old chap. ;]

Having read "almost" everything on this thread I don't actually think Renderosity OR paypal are at fault, it's certain people in the American Government that are to blame for what's going on. It's the Puritanical, Bible-bashing, nudity is evil, Adult toys corrupt our children, sex is the work of the devil morons who are running your country at the moment that have placed these restrictions on the companies like Paypal, who in turn have to put the same restrictions on anyone using them so they themselves can stay in business. Blame your government or better still blame yourselves, you put them there in the first place ;) Failing that blame Jack or IB they've always had broad shoulders hehehehe

Jack and Ironbear defending 'rosity. In all my years here... I never... You know, if Doc Legume pops in this thread we'll all know: IT'S THE APOCOLYPSE!

waves to bear n jack ;)

Bobasaur: ...there was a pink pony standing outside next to a man wearing a long flowing robe holding a scythe arguing with the doorman, infront of the sign saying: This way to the Apocolypse...

~b

waves way up there........hi joe ~b

"...it's certain people in the American Government that are to blame for what's going on." Damned straight it is... Why, I was at the Western Chapter of the VRWC meeting just the other day! We've got LOTS of chastity in store for everybody! (I'll chunk my wager in the blame betting pool on Jack, tho' - the odds are much, much better. >:) ) Doc Legume? If he shows up here, I'll just have to shit a solid gold brick. (I'll need one after I get done with buying all the stuff for this shiny new dual G5 I just scored...) /P

Hi Ironbear, nope, never would have believed it either. I'm just sitting here with some popcorn in one hand and a box of schadenfreude in the other. "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean everybody ISN'T out to get you."

"Having read "almost" everything on this thread I don't actually think Renderosity OR paypal are at fault, it's certain people in the American Government that are to blame for what's going on." - Lucifer_the_Dark

Well I for one am certainly happy to see that the "There's one in every crowd" Rule still holds true after all these years. Anyone else relieved? (oO) Piss off, "Lucifer".

Charming as ever IB :)