I IM'ed you almost a month ago, should I stop waiting?

I'm still trying to find out why the cost of downloading Poser 6 for an Australian is so much more expensive than for an American.

I know our Free Trade Agreement means there are no additional duties or taxes, and there is no shipping cost, so the cost should be the same as a US customer. Yet the store only gives me the option of paying as a European customer, at an inflated cost.

tyd2, are you saying it is forcing you to pay in Euros? Or? No option to pay in dollars? ::::: Opera :::::

It forces me to the "International" store, where the only currency options are Euros or Pounds, both of which convert to much higher than the $US amount. I used a link someone else posted which took me directly to the US store, where you do have the option of $US, but when I go to order it says "The product you have selected is not available in your area."

Ditto tyd2. We're paying the shipping costs as appropropriate, but we're damned if we have to pay brokerage or currency exchange fees for a ridiculous intermediate currency. Digital River, hear our cries. In this era of electronic fund transfers and automatic currency conversions, don't punish your Southern Hemisphere clients unnecessarily. Let OUR credit providers do the currency exchange and bill us in $US.

I agree, I would buy it right now if I could access the US store, however it looks like I will be giving it a miss. Richard (sydney, Australia)

I believe the upgrade price is $79US = $100.33AU (exchange rate 1.27 SUS/$AU
The price shown on C/L's website is 119EU = $202AU (exchange rate 1.7 EU/$AU)
Richard

Message edited on: 03/14/2005 09:13

Frankly I am not happy about free trade anyway. It has just caused Americans jobs and put our economy in a real tail spin. Between a very unpopular war (regardless of the speal put out), I for one do not want America (my country) to have there new world order. We have no health care for millions of Americans and many more will join the roles if cuts are made in medicare (Social Security now, Medicare next). Import taxes would stop the bleeding of jobs to poor countries who can't protect there people from predatory corporations. Sorry Curious Labs, I think you are heroic for staying an American Company. I would rather help them start there own companies with there own people leading them. We have been teaching people for years and helping financially to get them started. By the way, Americans can not afford medican from Canada any more because the dollar has lost so much of it's value. Now, we can not afford medicine in America or Canada. Sorry all about the soap box, and I am sorry for a whole lot of things. A man I know that has to sell his little home to get surgery on a brain tumor. My Son!!! He lost everything including his child.

Curious Labs, don't treat us like small-time nobodies you can just lump in with Europe. I mean, right here in Adelaide, South Australia we have a visual FX house that worked on movies such as Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, Batman Begins, Sky Captain and the World of Tommorrow, and Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire: Rising Sun Pictures, http://www.rsp.com.au/

Sorry, line 1 of 3rd paragraph. Should be medication

I believe that Curious Labs is a Japannese company now.

OOP's Sorry My Mistake! All companys who remain in the United States then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just one minor correction: The $79.00US price for Poser 6 UPGRADE is for those who PRE-ORDERED Poser 5. When those folks pre-ordered then, they got that discount for Poser 6. The rest of us if we pre-ordered Poser 6 UPGRADE (from Poser 5) got the $129.00US price.(and the additional content, new box, Shade LE) Pre-order regular price is $239.00US

"Frankly I am not happy about free trade anyway. It has just caused Americans jobs and put our economy in a real tail spin."

Hey, I'm with you. "Free Trade" helps the citizens of no country, only the corporations.

But I'm talking about CL exporting without additional costs to international buyers, which should actually help them get more sales (their country of origin aside).

Our FTA actually means we're not adding additional costs at this end, so the software should be the same price.

Can anyone do the math and show exactly how much extra the Aussies have to pay because (apparently) the difference in posted price is different than the exchange rate? For one given option, what is the US price, what would it be at the current exchange, and what is CL charging at the international store. I don't know why CL and others like E-On do not give their reason for not simply going with the current exchange. Yes, I know, one reason could be explitation, but there could be other costs intrinsic to them doing business across borders (i don't mean the obvious ones). I wish they would make some sort of statement. ::::: Opera ::::

I'm sorry but I don't understand what the problem is here. I live in Quec and I have to pay $150.25US for the upgrade from P5 to P6 (special edition). It is $129.00US plus $21.25US for shipping. Depending on the exchange rate the day they will ship it, this will cost me between $200CD and $250CD... which is a lot considering I bought Poser 5 less than a year ago and that it cost me over $400CD at the time. France

Here is the official response from Curious Labs after about 5 emails were exchanged - I too am in Australia and followed up on why I was charged in Euros - I did post this in another thread but here it is again.

***"We apologize for the problems you have been encountering.

The reason you can not order threw the US site is because the shippers
do not ship to Australia or New Zealand from the US. We do not have
control over how the currency is used on the website .

Thank you for contacting the online store's Customer Support. If you
have any further questions or concerns, please "reply" to this e-mail.

Sincerely,
Michelle B.
Customer Care Center"

So no way out of it - you have to pay in Euros and wear the extra $AUD 42 before shipping..... Not that that makes me happy but that seems to be Digital River's Policy - along with fact they can't spell either...

I hate to kibbitz about spelling, but the head of the customer service department should REALLY know the difference between "threw" and "through." I "threw" the ball and it went "through" the window. Okay?

(/rant)

I just checked out both DigitalRiver shops (US Domestic and Europe), and the prices are as following:

For US citizens prices are :

Poser 6 Standalone = $239
Upgrade from Poser4/PP = $149
Upgrade from Poser 5 = $129

For Non-US citizens prices are :

Poser 6 Standalone = 219 = $292
Upgrade from Poser4/PP = 129 = $172
Upgrade from Poser 5 = 119 = $159

So the extra profit made by selling outside US is =

Poser 6 standalone = $73
Upgrade from Poser4/PP = $43
Upgrade from Poser 5 = $40

...given todays conversion rates.

These are just the costs for the product without any extra costs like shipping/import tax or VAT added, as these can vary for each country.

stahlratte

::::: Opera ::::

My Invoice for Shipping to Victoria, Australia is:

Poser 6: 109,65 EUR
Shipping: 52,42 EUR
Total: 162.07 EUR

At today's exchange Rate = $AUD 274.992

As I said above and in other posts - had I have been able to order in $US, it would have meant a difference of about $42 before shipping...

I got stung by this also. Here in NZ our dollar is at a 20 yr high against the US dollar but NO I have to pay in Euros. Rip off! I wanted the Boxed Set but at 52 Eur shipping, that was more than I paid for Poser 6 (with discounts and rebates). Overnight, haha what a joke. There's no way that they could ship it to me in NZ overnight, so why the stupid shipping charges. Coupled to the poor Poser5 Mac integration, I'm Very disappointed now and somehow I think I will also be disappointed later. If it wasn't for the Shade bundle I wouldn't have raised to the bait at all.

Just clarify my previous post - the $AUD 42 was at the time of order on todays rate that is now $AUD 46.92 before shipping. In another thread someone speculated that Digital River were using the Euro as a hedge against the flucuations in the $US - I know we have had some wild exchange rates with the $US at times - but I seriously doubt if the $US would have fluctuated by about 25% since the 19th Feb.

Hey kaveman, I sure hope our boxes are worth the extra 52 EUR! I'm going to frame mine after all, I am paying about 1/2 of What Poser 6 cost before shipping!:)

Thanks stahlratte for your clear table of comparison. Meanwhile tastiger's email from them did not focus in on the real question. All to be learned is the stated reason why the system won't let you purchase in dollars. It does not address the question "why can't I purchase in Euros or $AU at the current exchange rate." And I also 'threw up' when I saw that grammar! We could sit here and speculate. I know some people assume it is out-and-out mean spirited rip off exploitation. The opposite assumption is: there is a cost completely outside the obvious that must be covered when selling internationally, something having nothing to do with shipping or VAT. In between would be: bureaucratic rigidity ("I'm setting the price and can't be bothered to have it fluctuate as the Euro goes up and down") thru "the software engineers say we can't do the fluctuation" etc." Also, CL might not be in control of the situation. It may be being dictated to them by Digital River. And yes, that is not an excuse; when you get married to a cliearing house/fullfillment system like Digital River, you get certain efficiency, but sacrifice human interaction and live customer support. I don't have an answer...but I certainly think it would be in the interest of Curious Labs, for whom I have tremendous respect, to either sell at the exchange rate equivelent, or give at least a partial truthful reason why they have to charge the extra $40. ::::: Opera :::::

'I hate to kibbitz about spelling, but the head of the customer service department should REALLY know the difference between "threw" and "through." I "threw" the ball and it went "through" the window. Okay?' You think that's bad? Here's a quote from the inside (right-hand) cover of my Poser 5 cd. 'IMPORTANT! Do not loose or throw away!' I mean . . . COME ON! A company puts out software at international level and makes a spelling mistake like that? -------------------------------- Om a different note, I sent katherine 2 IMs. I pre-ordered P5 and wanted the 'early-adopter' discount. No replies. Not a sausage. Bad show, chaps! It doesn't inspire customer confidence at all. mac

If I were to make a web page about it, "Loose" would be in the top three. I lose my temper when someone looses one of those boners near me. And I really don't know why so many confuse "waist" with "waste" -- unless their bathroom hygiene leaves MUCH to be desired. (It is the way of the world that I will have made at least one glaring typo in this message.) ^_^;;

Poser 6 Standalone US$ 239 = NZ$ 324 ERO 219 = NZ$ 396 Yes folk that's a staggering $72.00 overcharged and Freight is $95.00 And believe me it's just as hard to earn a dollar down here, "Money, it's a crime Share it fairly, but don't take a slice of my pie Money, so they say Is the root of all evil today But if you ask for a rise, it's no surprise that they're giving none away"

Hi all, First the issue of currency. The way Digital River sets territories has to do with where they ship from. Their US fulfillment ships to the Americas where as the UK ships to Europe and rest of world (including Australia). Pricing has been set with best possible rate so as to cover back end charges concurred with either physical shipments or electronically download of server costs. We have also not passed on the majority of back-end costs associated with DR for regions outside of the US which means the $40 extra is much less than 50% of added expense. Some have asked about real-time currency conversion rates. Curious Labs is not a direct-sales company only. Retail customers need pricing consistency which is why Curious Labs amongst many other manufacturers are not able to offer real-time currency conversion rates. In fact, many only offer a 1 to 1 ratio. If sold in Euros, they price 100 US dollars as 100 Euros. We have tried our best to keep pricing fair worldwide for the release of Poser 6. Last, on the topic of IM's. I would guess that many are not aware of my role at Curious Labs but the level of responsibility under my position means that I have less than desired time to work individually with each one of you. The issue of sending IM's was to resolve the serial number issue and those who were early adopters of Poser 5 who should have received the early adopters upgrade special. Many of you have sent all kinds of questions via IM which I have tried to get to, but again - impossible when you consider the volume of more than 300 IM's a day with one answer causing many follow up questions from each single individual. I sincerely wish it were possible to speak individually with all, regarding all questions, but in the past 3 weeks, it has not been possible. Tyd2, I believe I did answer your IM's and in one, tried to explain that Australia falls into the UK Digital River facility which meant US payment was not possible. I apologize if I didn't make that completely clear. With the customer service from Digital River offering an email with type-o... I did have to cringe when I saw that, but - I'm pretty bad at type-o's myself when trying to get many notes out to as many people as possible. Sometimes your mind just thinks ahead of your fingers I suppose. With kind regards, Katherine

" Pricing has been set with best possible rate so as to cover back end charges" So true... "Curious Labs is not a direct-sales company only." but it is a direct-sales company, that's what we are talking about. "Retail customers need pricing consistency" but you don't have that! "many other manufacturers" Who??? "We have tried our best to keep pricing fair worldwide" Your worldwide customers are pointing out that you have failed and the pricing is not fair. With all due respect and in no-way disparaging Katherine's good work but This answer says nothing and changes even less.

A lot of people with very high IQ's do not spell english perfectly. It has a lot of exceptions in the language. If it is a second language I tip my hat to them for trying. My son speeks 3 languages I think he is wonderful, and I am glad he was not critized for his mistakes at least he tries to use his skills to help others. It may not be perfect but the people he helps are greatful he spent the time learning.

Amen to that. English is a downright nutty language -- why, even the Americans can't get it right! (Which puts me in mind of Yogi Berra's responce when asked if he knew the King's English; "Sure I do," he said after a moment, "and so's the Queen!") Loose and lose might be a typo. Threw and through can not be. That's a mistake of a different order...through and through.

LOL: I just had this image pop into my head of several Aussie & Kiwi Poser users sitting around sometime after the 21st looking at these pristine boxes, wrapped in plastic and working out a way to open them without destroying the wrapping, coz the blinking box cost $AUD 88...... :) And I will be checking the return address when my copy arrives - hope it's a UK address, otherwise DR will hear the scream from here!...and maybe I'll even start "threwing" things around!

Unfortunately, as usual, none of the questions have been adressed. The prices I quoted are for the products. Shipping charges are to be added ON TOP of that. Non-Americans pay $73 MORE AND shipping charges AND Vat/Import Tax. And noone can tell me it costs $73 MORE to download Poser6 from a server that is located in the UK than to download it from a server that is located in the USA. Or that it costs $73 MORE to keep a box of Poser6 in stock in the UK as compared to the USA. PUHLEEEZE. Lets face it, looks like CL and/or DR feel that owning American Software is a priviledge for non-US citizens, and so we should just pay up and roll over. Anyway, I guess Ill stick with ProPack for a while until the US Dollar is THAT low, that $50 more or less really dont matter anymore. LOL! stahlratte

"Or that it costs $73 MORE to keep a box of Poser6 in stock in the UK as compared to the USA." I'm have no idea how the distribution agreement works between CL and DR but I bet that any finacial exchange between the two of them would be in $US - it's only us poor old end users that have to cop the Euro.....

At the risk of being terribly annoying: It appears to me that she did indeed answer the questions as posed. What she did not address was the fairness of the issue -- something that she not only cannot address effectively without a common ground of understanding (lacking wholly among the people asking as evidenced by the fact they asked -- if they had the knowledge of why the inequity, they wouldn't be asking the question). Do not whine to Curious Labs. They do not apparently have the resources to operate their own store to their satisfaction. Therefore, they have chosen a third party to provide these services. In simplest terms, you are not buying from CL, you are buying from Digitial River, who basically have a link in the curious labs site. You don't have to like it. But complaining about it to them at this point isn't going to do you any good now, becuase the system is in place already, contracts signed, etc. You could always wait the couple of months it will take for the product to hit store shelves and purchase it there. Odds are you'll get a better price anyway. Complaining may do some good, mind you -- they may choose, at the expiry of the current contracts, to use a different company or set up an internal fulfilment system. If anything, the best method to resolving these issues is to hound the hell out of Digital River. And I do mean the holy hell out of them. They agreed to handle these transactions, and they have been falling down terribly in the process. As for the fairness of issue, it is a certainty that the higher prices are, in some way, related directly to the nature of the fulfillment contract. Curious Labs Has changed the pricing, in an attmept to be more fair. The orginal pricing for it was going to be, as she noted above, in line with most other small companies. That would be a 1 to 1 rate. Which would suck even more for international buyers. Blaming Free Trade agreements is asinine, incidentally, for the pricing issue here -- rather than accept the "conventional" meaning of them, perhaps learning what they specifically deal with would be in one's interest. Beyond that, to deal with the inequities, act to improve the exchange rate of the currency you have to deal in. Long term, doing something to assist that (which, sadly, will help all those evil companies you despise so much) will provide you with the equity you seek.

'those who were early adopters of Poser 5 who should have received the early adopters upgrade special' I didn't get this, katherine. I'll try to mail you directly at CL with the details and hope it can still be done. Thanks mac

If your buying thru the Curious Labs website - choose pounds sterling as your currency and then you will see that when converted to AUD you will pay about $40 less then EUR coverting to AUD... i've done the math and unless i'm completely still in twlight zone..... its cheaper for us Aussies... I used XE.com to do my curency conversion.

jdbwms has stated almost everything I wanted to say after reading Katherine's e-mail. That was very well expressed.

I once attempted to go past CL and directly to Digital River on an order. They are armored-up against anyone contacting them in an effective way. I know this kind of company; I've encountered them in many industries. The smell, if any, comes from them. Katherine was not explicit about the conditions DL imposed with the fulfillment contract, but you can bet they are not pretty.

And to respond to particular, E-On software is another company under attack for the practice of holding 1:1 on the Dollar/Euro.

Also, Katherine said "we are not a direct-sales company ONLY," and unless you miss the point completely, fairness would allow that point to register. They set a fixed price for the world, one that resellers and huge wholesalers can count on to drive a reliable retail price point.

As for the need to cover backend charges, to which the response was "so true," do you think that immoral?

Thank you, Katherine, for your explanation. May I chide with an error in usage? Its incurred, not concurred.

::::: Opera :::::

As nomuse has pointed out, the use of "loose" when one intends "loose" or "threw" when one intends "through" is not a typographical error; it is an error in word usage. It is a misuse of the language.

The problem is NOT the English language per se. The blame falls on the abandonment of intensive, systematic phonics-first and standard grammar in favor of whole language in the US, Europe, and other English-as-a-first-language nations.

If you worship a philosophy of education that holds it to be unhealthy to the self-esteem of small children to correct them, that inaccurate spelling or usage is not a negative and that in fact there ought be no such thing as 'wrong' spelling or usage in the first place, you get a population that spells inaccurately, uses words improperly, expresses hurt feelings when people point out these errors and loudly claims there is nothing wrong with their spelling or usage in the first place. They then label the person pointing out the errors as cruel, judgmental, rigid and fascistic.

::::: Opera :::::

"Tyd2, I believe I did answer your IM's and in one, tried to explain that Australia falls into the UK Digital River facility which meant US payment was not possible. I apologize if I didn't make that completely clear."

With all due respect Katherine, you DID NOT reply to my IM (yes, that's IM singular). I have received 2 IMs total since being registered on this forum. One says "Curious_Labs has received your message.", the other is someone asking me about a Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

"The way Digital River sets territories has to do with where they ship from."

This makes no sense with downloadable content. What stops anyone, anywhere in the world, downloading from the same server, meaning server costs etc would be the same? Maybe Digital River should take into account their own range of services and not be back in the 20th century when all products needed to be shipped physically.

Regardless, there are plenty of other software companies that can sell downloadable software to me for the same price as US buyers. I was at goCyberLink.com yersterday and they actually gave me the option to pay in US$ or AU$...at the correct exchange rate! If CL/Digital River can't do this it can only be due to bad business practices.

Never before have I tried so hard to GIVE A BUSINESS MY MONEY! But I don't want to be robbed, and forcing me to hand over more than a US customer when there is no justifiable reason IS robbery.

If this is the way honest customers are treated, it's no wonder so many people just resort to warez.

"If your buying thru the Curious Labs website - choose pounds sterling as your currency and then you will see that when converted to AUD you will pay about $40 less then EUR coverting to AUD.." 119 Euro = $AUD 201.50 82 GPB = $AUD 198.95 Not really worthwhile the effort today - although when I ordered last month there was a bit more of a difference but in favour of the Euro......

"If you worship a philosophy of education that holds it to be unhealthy to the self-esteem of small children to correct them, that inaccurate spelling or usage is not a negative and that in fact there ought be no such thing as 'wrong' spelling or usage in the first place, you get a population that spells inaccurately, uses words improperly, expresses hurt feelings when people point out these errors and loudly claims there is nothing wrong with their spelling or usage in the first place. They then label the person pointing out the errors as cruel, judgmental, rigid and fascistic." I nominate the preceding for "Paragraph of the Year" in the category of, "What's Wrong with Education in the US".

Speaking of warez, you might want to do something about this guy:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=90723&item=7141654659&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

I've bought software from the US as well as Europe and the most I ever had to pay before for postage was $11. Also when buying software goods from the US I pay either with credit card or by PayPal and am allowed to pay in dollars.
CL is the only company that insists that because I live in the UK I must either pay in pound's or euro's, which is rediculous 'cos if I use either of the fore mentioned payment methods they then get paid in dollars and I get a charge for the conversion through my bank.
At the time I made my order for P6 the exchange rate was such that I was almost getting $0.65 - 1.00, but not at Curious Labs, oh no, there I must pay way over the actual price and it does make me feel like I've been a bit ripped off.
Here's hoping that all this fuss is worth it. 8)

Speaking of warez, you might want to do something about this guy:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=90723&item=7141654659&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Up until now, when I see Poser warez on ebay, I email ebay to get them to take it down. But with CL's current attitude, I think I'll stop doing them this favour.

"The issue of sending IM's was to resolve ... those who were early adopters of Poser 5 who should have received the early adopters upgrade special." You still don't have it right for me. I've IMed, I've emailed, I've tried to call what would you suggest I do now?

This has gotta (sic) be the 300th or so thread started on the issue of "overpricing" for international sales.

The topic, and the reasons for it, has been hashed out repeatedly.

Most likely, Curious Labs actually makes less money on a copy of P6 which is sold overseas than it does on a copy which is sold in the US. Even with the slightly higher overseas price.

The reasons for this situation are as Katherine explained them. Plus some other reasons that she didn't go into. Because doing so would simply get another lengthy debate cranked up.

Once a territory has been covered enough, then a rut starts to form.

In spite of the protests over "fairness" -- Curious Labs simply cannot afford to sell their product at a loss.

Which is what some are demanding that they do.

Try a forum search. Tons of other threads have already beaten this subject into the ground.

Tip of the cap XENOPHONZ. Simple, strong and direct. The (sic) is a nice touch! ::::: Opera :::::

"This has gotta (sic) be the 300th or so thread started on the issue of "overpricing" for international sales..."

Well, injustices don't get fixed when you lay down and take it.

"In spite of the protests over "fairness" -- Curious Labs simply cannot afford to sell their product at a loss. Which is what some are demanding that they do."

Who's demanding that? Downloading the program from their servers to my computer doesn't cost them more than for anyone else to do it. The reason this topic is going to keep coming up is because it is always dismissed with strawman arguments.

This has gotta (sic) be the 300th or so thread started on the issue of "overpricing" for international sales.<< False: It was the third. >>The topic, and the reasons for it, has been hashed out repeatedly.<< False: All what the posters received was the same old corporate spin. >>Most likely, Curious Labs actually makes less money on a copy of P6 which is sold overseas than it does on a copy which is sold in the US. Even with the slightly higher overseas price.<< False: 40% is not "slightly" higher. And corporations (Even US ones which, as we all know are the most kindest, honest and generous there are in the world (cough), "have" to make profit. So I seriously doubt CL sells outside the US just because they are so...um..."nice". >>The reasons for this situation are as Katherine explained them. Plus some other reasons that she didn't go into. Because doing so would simply get another lengthy debate cranked up.<< False: Giving an honest explanation would have made treads llke this uneccassary. >>Once a territory has been covered enough, then a rut starts to form.<< False: Like I said, the terrirory has "not" been covered at all. >>In spite of the protests over "fairness" -- Curious Labs simply cannot afford to sell their product at a loss. Which is what some are demanding that they do.<< False: Noone wants CL to loose money. What people want is an honest explanation. BTW, whats wrong with "Fairness" ? To be honest, discussions like these give me the impression that a few members here constantly confuse a buisiness relationship with fandom. Curious Labs is a corporation that sells software. Even though this software seems to have a big impact on many members lives, they are just that: A buisiness entity. And as long as they treat one part of their customers differently from the other part without giving a plausible explanation, they will have to face criticism. Just like any other corporation that does the same. In contrary to what some members may seem to think, this is not a commie conspiration to drive an honest hard working American buisiness out of the market. (LOL) This is Joe Public speaking.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2127777

There are no "injustices" here.

Should I.......? No, it's all been done before.

Go to this old thread. Read the whole thing, if you've got the time.

Personally, I've got better things to do.

After a time, people will either acknowledge reality -- or they won't.

The reason this topic is going to keep coming up is because it is always dismissed with strawman arguments.

No, the reason that it's going to keep coming up is due the fact that it's not going to change. It can't change.

Curious Labs isn't in business to lose money. And they aren't constituted as a public charity, either.