What other sites are there - well try this one http://www.woosie.net/fracfan/index.php Some of the same people as here at Rendo but with more sense of humour and not quite so far 'up' themselves.

Actually, I'm fine with the social thing. It's fun. As long as it is seen for what it is there is nothing wrong with it.

Thanks Keith for the honest and thoughtful posting. Your opinions are valuable not only because you are an artist (I use the term carefully) but because you also take a good hard look at things. One thing I must say however, even though I am a relative newcomer, is that in retrospect looking at my posting I think there is some correlation, however tainted it may be, between the number of comments received and the appeal of the images. [Keeping in mind of course what Vivian (tresamie) said, that it should be kept in mind that the apparent appeal is only to the folks at Renderosity.] In this sense it has value as a form of nonspecific feedback. My commenting on other's work, although somewhat sporadic, is fairly consistent in that I don't usually comment on pieces I don't consider special in some way. The number of viewings also has value after you take into account the difference an appealing thunbnail makes on the view numbers. Discussions like this one will help to make the commenting more relevent, even though people will still be people. For the record, I've given up on the H20 ever having any value artistically and don't vote anymore. And I use the ranking as only a special 'gold star' if I feel particularly strongly about an image. I would also like to say to all that we should try to keep any personal back-biting out of this forum. It really lowers the tone. Tim

i don't think the people are far up themselves whatever that means ? i am just not good at social stuff and so feel disadvantaged when the social stuff relates to how your work is viewed. some days i have huge difficulties finding words and that can last for days and then such as today today it is like normal again, if though you (i mean me, i often talk in the third person about myself) have such problems but you would like to get on as an artist then maybe renderosity is not the right site, i don't know. i actually like it here and the people but i do find it frustrating when i think i have done something particulary good. the way this is looking now is that the hot 20 is not to be taken seriously and the comments neither, so how do you judge if your work is good or not ? i am being quite serious, i have no clue.

Sorry you disapproved of my comment, sammi - I was just trying to be helpful. As you probably really know, being 'up' oneself is a polite version of another phrase and basically means that someone is full of their own importance and takes themselves far too seriously - that is how I view the people who are desperate to get in the Hot 20. The site I recommended is fun, helpful, supportive and non-competitive - Rendo could learn a lot from it. Mags

no, not disapprove :) i have just subbed to that site,thank you. i've also subbed to the apo list again.of course now i am now wondering if i am up myself because i actually wouldn't mind having a pic in the hot 20 :), well,more, i wouldn't mind if the hot 20 was a showcase of really good pictures that is.

"I'm sorry Rykk but I don't think the crux ..." Excuse me, are you some sort of moderator trying to tell me to butt out of this thread or something??? I've got as much right to add my meager 1.2 cents as anyone else...however misguided or not. "sorry" - most misused/insincere word in the language. Linda's original message was about "you comment on mine and I'll comment on yours" and how she had to devote time to "real life" and so therefore have to be more discriminating in her comments. Not much different from "you V mine and I'll V yours". They go hand in hand. And since its her thread and I had gotten off-topic, too - Linda, don't you feel bad about not commenting as much on people's images for one minute. You've certainly spent a LOT of time spreading good vibes around here for a long time and your selfless consideration for others is VERY appreciated and has helped create an upbeat vibe. At least by me. Not to mention turning us on to a lot of great pieces of fractal art! You haven't "contributed to ANY problems" around here - just the opposite. I'll bet there's not a one of us here that can't page back to their first post and not find your name there with an encouraging word. And not recall how good and welcome it made us feel after the nervousness of that first upload. Thanks, Linda, you deserve a break from all the madness. IMO. If you lose any "friends" over it, well they weren't real anyhow so who needs 'em? Rick

I didn't say anything about you should 'butt out of this thread' - I was simply disagreeing with you - is this not allowed? Bit of an over-reaction I'd say and I'm sorry - yes really - that you're so uptight about it. I think it simply confirms what I said earlier - that too many people here are full of their own importance. We are all equal here and therefore, I, too, am just as entitled to my viewpoint as you are, even if it does differ from yours. However, this is not the place for a protracted argument and I have no further comments to you.

Sorry to over-react, mags61 - rough day and I get tired of reading umpteen variations of this same stuff in this forum every other month. You weren't disagreeing with me, you were judging my comments non-sequitor and not germane to the conversation. Not disagreeing with my points. To wit: "I'm sorry Rykk but I don't think the crux of this thread has anything to do with the H20 list" Seems to me that one who is "full of their own self importance" would stand off smugly on the edges of this community and would not "lower themselves" to spend a little time encouraging the other artists around here and being friendly or helpful.... Now I'm done with this, too. Rick

"how do you judge if your work is good or not ?" That's a good question. It's all so subjective. One person's masterpiece is another's cow dung. For example, I like flames but I am so tired of them. They all look the same to me, but most everyone else is in love with them. I know, a thousand times over, "do what makes you happy" That's a nice thought but it isn't very practical. If that's all I did I wouldn't need to put my images here for you to look at. I want to know if you like what I do as well as what I like to do (did that make sense?). I look at relative numbers, comparing only to myself. I usually get around 20 comments. If I get a lot more than that, it must be well liked. If I get a lot less, it must not be. That's just my theory. I don't know if it's worth anything. I'm fortunate enough to have a couple of friends who are not afraid to give a negative comment. Take a look at my latest image, there's one there. I take comments like that as a high complement. It means that the person has enough confidence in me to expect better. I may or may not act on that comment because I know it's subjective, but still, at least someone was willing to be tell me what they thought. I'm rambling, sorry.

Of course, arriving late.... This is a good discussion, and although tiring sometimes, I think it's good to get it all out every once in awhile (and we do every other month it seems). However, we do NOT need to start attacking each other. That is NOT what this forum is about. Let's try to get along, please or no-one will benefit. Mags- For one, this site IS helpful. There is always help to be found in the forums. Post a question, and you usually get the help you need, from more than one member. And fun- it can be fun if we don't resort to arguing instead of helping. Yes, this thread is about commenting, but also pertains to the Hot 20 as well. As was originally stated in the first post by Fractalinda: "I've been aware of the "you pat my back and I'll pat yours" mentality that seems to happen almost automatically..but, latley, it has become more of a concern..." It's all related, really. Getting to Keith's earlier point- If you want honest comments you have to ask for them. Unfortunately that is most often the case. How do you know if your comments will offend someone? Believe me it happens alot (I have had many many IMs and e-mails over comments in my time here). Of course, sometimes it is due to the language barrier. I am all for honest comments, as long as they don't 'attack' the art or the artist. That can be tricky sometimes, yes. But if you really want to know how well you are doing....try like Keith said- specifically ask for them under your images. And commenting without regard to 'who' the artist is, is always a good idea. And that includes voting on images, as well :D Have a great day! Nick

hi degal, thanks for your reply, i'm not sure i have anything to add atm also i have spent all morning here and i really ought to do something else :) and thanks nick too. yes, i have no idea whether what i do is any good or not, if the hot 20 and comments are a measure then i think most of my work must be a bit crappy. i've tried doing stuff with eggs but it's just not me. :) i think also i may be obesssing a bit now and it is time for a break/do something else sort of thing. thanks for your comments and support.

The indicator of whether one's work is "good" or not is NOT measured by how many views or comments one gets in an ethereal place such as an internet gallery... The indicator is whether YOU like what you have created. Simple! To get all heated up about whether someone else likes your work is not worth the effort. As long as YOU are happy with it - that is all that matters in the end. Yes - there are some very fine artists here at Rendo. Some works I like, some I don't, and some just seem to be the same old same old over and over again - and that bores me to tears. Don't hold too much stock in the popularity "contests" that appear to be rife here - they are transient at best. Just enjoy creating your own works in your own style, and you will be a lot more satisfied in the long run... T.

Like I said, that's a nice thought and it is true, but still, if that's all that matters, why bother with showing it to anyone? Why put it here?

" but still, if that's all that matters, why bother with showing it to anyone? Why put it here" exactly. not that i have an answer to that though. :)

"The indicator of whether one's work is "good" or not is NOT measured by how many views or comments one gets in an ethereal place such as an internet gallery..." I don't think anyone ever said that here. And I doubt there is any thinking person on this planet, certainly not any artists, who would say such a thing. Fortunately the world in general, and particularly people, are not "Simple!" We are all, all of us, much more complex than that. Part of the art thing is of course simple expression. But who will deny that another part of the artistic process is connecting with someone else? I'll bet there are very few great art works that have never been seen by anyone but the artist. This whole notion that an artist, say a pianist, will be perfectly happy forever playing only for himself is a load of rubbish. After the first year or two how incredibly boring that would be! Furthermore, I'm sure none of us has reached the point where we are so good at our craft that we don't need any feedback, ever. In order to grow we need the challenge of an audience, especially our peers. Sure there is a lot of 'peopling' going on here at Rendo, some pretty darn disgusting at times. But 'they' are 'us'. All of our motivations are basically the same when you boil it all down. Some just act on their motivations differently than others (but that's a whole other discussion). One needs to understand it and accomodate it. My view is that after taking popularity into account one can get a reasonable level of feedback from the count of views and comments. It's certainly not a perfect method but what is? I'm not implying that I'll slit my wrists if I don't get any comments on an image I submit, but I may have a good look at it to see if maybe it could use some work. Or hell, maybe it's a poor piece. They can't all be gems. Tim

"Like I said, that's a nice thought and it is true, but still, if that's all that matters, why bother with showing it to anyone? Why put it here?" Personally - I have put 2 images here in the gallery - both of them I'm mighty proud of... and both have had some good feedback I'll admit... but the feedback is not my sole motivation for posting those images. I post my images here so that maybe they will encourage someone else to try to do something similar - or maybe make someone smile - or just because I'm darned proud of them and want to share them with a very wide audience. Let's face it, this place is huge, and any work posted here has the chance of being seen by a heck of a lot of people... I have a private gallery that I post my images in - if you weant to see them, it's as simple as clicking on a link... if you don't then that is fine too... I'm not too bothered by whether my works are "popular" or my style is "pleasing" to everyone (or no-one) - I'm really into the creative process, and the way that it makes me feel. Yes - I do like comments on my work - good, bad, or indifferent - at least someone has taken the time to actually look at the image and maybe it has inspired them to say something, or just brought a smile to their face... and that, good people, is plenty for me... T.

Well said, Tim!!