So there we were writing and reading each others ideas and points on Lyne's thread when Agiel locks the thread.

Agiel you didn't answer any of my direct question to you and only proved yourself to be close minded and not respectful. People all don't think like you.

I thought we were fleshing out some real truths with that discussion. I was learning new points and perspectives. But Agiel locks the thread. I am seriously disappointed in you as moderator. Other forums here at renderosity do not have this type of control so why does the vue forum?

I wanted to learn about the other software that is similiar to vue and this forum is the place. Agiel had no right to lock that thread.

There is a lot more to be said about the problems of vue, encryption, and Cornucopia as the cause. Why can't we maturely discuss these things here in the vue forum?

In my eyes Agiel is just making vue look even more worse than Cornucopia did.

A couple of weeks ago, a high-level official from e-on called me to discuss problems I (and quite a few others) were having with Vue 5 Infinite. This person admitted that the software was released too early.

Welcome to the world of political correctness and snarling petty attitudes. Not everyone has understood the concepts of the First Amendment and free speech Purplecloud. Obviously the idea of free-wheeling artists, engaging in civil discourse, takes the back seat to those who value entrenched, parochial views that defend the establishment of corporate software marketing. I actually thought that Renderosity respected a bit more of a free spirited approach to forums, more so than a corporately owned one. I guess Im wrong?

I would understand a lock-out on a thread if someone was denigrating another person, but because I speak out in favor of an alternative to semi-broken software, Im branded as a marketer! If this Agiel had any panache, he (or she?) would simply issue a formal challenge of creative competition. Obviously my stating the opinion that Vue4 was a worthy program was not enough! We must walk Agiels narrow path of corporate appeasement or face the wrath ofthread lockdown!

Obviously Agiels concept of the Renderosity Vue forum is that it is a place for small minded software geeks to meet and pat each other on their self-indulgent backs. Free thinking artists expressing negative, as well as the positive aspects of the 3D software market disturb this person. So, the real question for Agiel is: what is so threatening about an opinion that clashes with your own? I dont care about Eovia, or e-on. I only care that quality software gets to the people who purchase it!

Perhaps if I were to purchase ~$20,000 of Renderosity stock, Agiel would go away and get a job with e-on?

I have quite a few art pieces done with V5I, but getting there has been a very difficult and frustrating endeavor. E-ons technical support people offer no help when obvious problems occur. I dont post my work, because it is usually designed to be printed on my lovely Epson 9800 WF printer.

At any rate, thank you Purplecloud, not for you defense of my specific outspoken comments on Lyns thread, but for the defense of free and open expression!

I should have expected that kind of reaction. I will try to address most of the points raised. My apologies in advance if the reply seems a little all over the place. There was a lot to asnwer. I locked Lyne's thread for many reasons. The main one being that the thread had deviated too far from the original post. If you want a formal comparison between Carrara and Vue, you are welcome to open a new thread on that subject alone, os that I can add a link to it from the Backroom pages. We have other threads like that about Bryce... this is no different. I received several IMs from people who were leaving the forum because of the constant arguments about Vue and e-on's flaws. Looking at how quiet the forum has been in the past few weeks, they have not returned. I just can't let thread degenerate into that kind of discussion. Other forums at renderosity would have done just the same. Purplecloud - Your only contribution to this forum has been to pop in once in a while and only to repeat the same statements about e-on's support, issues with the bonny clump and star shaped network (I know someone who has been repeatedly banned for doing thesame by the way). I hardly consider that mature discussions. If you want to learn more about Carrara, I will be happy to direct your questions to the Carrara forum where, I am sure, a lot of people will be happy to show you why theylike Carrara. About free speech Not everyone has understood the concepts of Free speech on a forum. Look at the forum FAQ about that one. Free speech doesn't apply the same way on a privately held forum. This is why we have a Terms of Services for example. If you want absolute free speech, you are free to open your own forum where your own rules will apply. Note that I left Lyne's thread open for a while. I even left it in place after locking it, instead of simply deleting the whole thing. If it was a matter of corporate software marketing, the thread would have dissapeared at the first post about Carrara. As for myself I personally could not care less if everybody likes me or not. I have learned a long time ago that it is just not possible to please everybody. I didn't volunteer for this job to be popular either. What I care about is to see the forum florish as a place where people can learn and help each other to use Vue. About Vue and e-on's problems. Vue has several flaws. This is not a newsflash. Carrara does too. And so does 3D Studio... so what. e-on doesn't advertise limitations of their software. They want to present it in a good light so that people buy it. So does Eovia... or Autodesk. Once again nothing new with that. And once again there isn't much we can do without access to their code, or without a direct input into their business practices. Unfortunately, I don't have a view to either. I don't even know how many developers they have ! :) LCBoliou you want formal challenges of creative competition ? we have a monthly challenge and two open workshops at the moment. I would be glad to see your contributions (I am a 'he' by the way). If you meant a challenge of creative competition to compare both software, I can arrange that. I have tried many times to run benchmarks between Carrara and Vue, only to find how difficult it is to really compare two rendering engines based on different techniques. To get some neutral ground, here is my suggestion : create a picture, in Vue or Carrara (or anything else for what I care), that will match this photograph as closely as possible (The photo is from the Pink Lake, near Dakar, Senegal). Post your replies in this thread. I may even take a shot at it if I have time.

Oh, Poo. You just had to post logic and reason before I got a chance to politely return fire, agiel (kicks a can down the road). Like the challenge, btw..... ;)

Yes, i'm all for free speech in public and in private, but this is neither, it's a business's property. No different than being in a store where the store owner has some rules. Businesses have rights too - such as making their own rules. Rules which everyone already agreed to abide by - else they wouldn't be here posting. Personal attacks will never be a tool in any rational argument. When anyone denegrates another person, instead of making a clear point, you defeat your own argument and look like an idiot (even if you are actually intelligent). My U$0.02

I do understand and agree with the points made concerning the owners right to establish sensible limits in a forum. But the spirit of free and open discussion was my point; not a literal legal issue. I always view the internet as an extension of Freedom of the Press, so maybe a software brand agnostic editorial page would be a good addition for the Renderosity web site, to allow for some civil mud wrestling? I also (honestly) do appreciate Agiel's difficult position, but you see, I was captivated by the feature list of V5I -- as were many folks. I know it can work well in many cases, but it seems to fail me when I need it the most!

I had been a Bryce user on a hobby level for years, and went to e-on because it promised professional results. Bryce was (is?) going nowhere. About a year & a half ago I even wrote Corel a letter opining that they should either sell-off Bryce, or do it justice with a real revision. Im targeting hanging my artwork in a Santa Fe, NM art gallery, and V5I was central to this goal. I believe this goal has been significantly stretched-out in time due toI poured a lot of time into learning V5I & work-arounds!

I was a computer hardware technician in the late 1970s. I worked in the Apollo lunar mission, and worked as an instrumentation tech/engineer for about 30 years. I've been using computers & software from the SW6800/DEC PDP-LSI-11 days. I recently worked for Lockheed Martin Information Technology for 5 years as an IT worker. I likely have a differing perspective on software/hardware quality expectations than most do?

So, Ill just skulk away from this forum, and e-on I do feel more comfortable in an environment where simply getting things done is the challenge. I do like the Pink Lake challenge though, and might revisit that idea shortly.

There are certainly many talented Vue users, good luck to all!

-LCB

Cool background you've got there LC! Seriously; interesting stuff.

I agree cool background and some wisdom and common sense to go with it. :) Some the youngsters might learn from people like him if they would only take time to read before jumping at conclusions. :)

That is one impressive background :) Ditto the above :) Once I've learned Carrara a little better, I'll have to give this a shot, it's a great pic :) I hope you don't mind Agiel, I've saved this pic on my puter for reference :) If it's a problem I'll be more than happy to delete it. You know this might be a good idea for a "community challenge" type thing. Where all forums are involved. The PTB could put up a pic and have all the different software users get involved, including 2d(PSP/PS). I think it would be interesting to see what different software/users can accomplish with the same scene trying to replicate :)

Attached Link: http://digitalcarversguild.com/

The same would be applicable to any software. This site in NOT the be all-end all of artisitic/software abilities.

www.eovia3d.net

Message edited on: 12/02/2005 17:37

Agiel, you avoided once again my direct questions. I don't appreciate you talking down to me either. I think you are full of yourself and one sided. If you want to keep the blinders on go head. You only prove to me you have no arguement by attacking me and threatening me with a ban. The facts are vue has many problems and I think you are one of them. Should we list the problems? Or will you lock the thread? Or delete this post?

Maybe I missed the question. I thought I addressed most of your points in my reply. Question> There is a lot more to be said about the problems of vue, encryption, and Cornucopia as the cause. Why can't we maturely discuss these things here in the vue forum? Answer> Yes. You can. As long as you keep it as a mature discussion. I have left many arguments about Vue's problems out on the forum already. What more do you want ? I was not talking down on you by the way. Just pointing out that, as far as this forum goes, your participation has been "zero" (or rather less than that, just "negative"). I can make a list of your comments from the archives if you need me to refresh your memory. I am still waiting for the mature arguments you are talking about.

Maybe you meant this question ?

Question: "Now in forums it is custom for members to share their views to see if those views hold water. If others join and agree maybe the particular view will develop into some other type of action like a change in the software or in a company's policy.

So wouldn't it be possible that what you deem as just negative comments could turn out to a positive end? Wouldn't that be reason enough for people to post their complaints?"

Answer: Yes. Negative comments can turn out to a positive end. There were several examples of issues that were discussed here (or in other forums) and that have yielded bug fixes or changes in the interface or even reversals of decisions from e-on.

But the negative comments that really helped are the ones where people actually tried to figure out what the problem was, exchanged tips and ideas about what to do in the meantime and sent out suggestions to e-on as to how to fix it.

Comments that do NOT work are when people are just content with stating that e-on is a terrible company or Vue is a terrible software. Or when they tell everyone they are better off staying away from Vue and get something else. I already told you above - I have received several emails of people who are using vue but are leaving the forum because of the constant negative comments about e-on and Vue. As the moderator of this forum, this is a very serious problem for me. When I see there are only 6 entries to the current challenge instead of 15 or 20 earlier this year. This is a serious problem for me. These are people who want to use Vue, in spite of its problems. They are not participating or leaving altogether because of the constant barrage of negative comments from a handful of individuals. Like many people here, I invested in Vue. A lot. And I would like to use it as much as possible. I am even prepared to wait until some of my issues are resolved (most of them have been resolved from one version to the next).

Maybe this is just a difference of opinion on what makes a mature discussion after all.

You said you are trying to understand my logic. I hope this will help.

Message edited on: 12/02/2005 20:58

Or he might have meant these question, agiel.... ;) purplecloud; (1) What happened to the pine trees is that there were reports of problems. So they were pulled to be fixed or examined (there have been a few times that the 'problems' were nothing of the sort, btw), and as they are fixed, they are reinserted into the store in a beta state until the mods at Cornucopia can test them. Once -we- are satisfied, they go active again (and barring a database corruption, they are still in purchasers database, and are simply re-downloaded). (2) The bonny clump is 'new'....to the Cornucopia store environment. If you had looked, you would have noticed that -all- of the 10 plant species e-on used to carry on their site were listed as 'new' when they were added to the store's database. (3) The free content at Cornucopia is frankly a lower priority than getting the site debugged fully, getting the damage done to the Vue app by the triply blown 5.08 updates of a few months ago straightened out, and getting the 3rd party vendor system online. Once the program works smoothly, the site is smooth, and the creators, who've been incredibly patient, are set to sell, that is most likely next in the queue. Anyone here remember the very early days of Rosity, and the number of yowls about how long it was taking to get X fixed? How the color scheme sucked? The freestuff was clunky? The store was a PITA to maneuver? Etc, etc, etc? You were not fleshing anything out, PC. You were getting into an Eovia lovefest where it didn't belong, and there were more than a few snarky personal attacks buried in amongst all the fanboy drooling over Carrara. Personally, I can't stand that piece of tripe. The interface sucketh mightily. Those claims of an 'intuitive interface' might be true for a 3 armed dyslexic alien from Proxima, but for me it was about a counter intuitive as picking my nose with my knee. That is simply =my= opinion...and it does not change the fact that for many people, the software in question is a good one for their toolkit. Infinite is a good one for =my= toolkit; I've tried several packages out, and those that do not work as advertised, or do not fit my flow, are cast aside without any urge whatsoever to bombard any fora related to them with repeated posts as to how I think they stink. I can find better things to do with my time...like making CG movies. Or helping someone else out with a problem if I can. Oh. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Cararra -5- is still a pre-order item, ne? That would mean that only someone beta testing it (assuming it -is- in beta, of course) could possibly comment factually on what these new features =actually= can do. And an actual beta tester would be under NDA...or at least I've been under one whenever I've betatested something commercial...and so would legally be =required= to keep their big mouth shut. Also true? In other words, everyone in the locked thread was yammering on about something not in release.....a situation that would sort of be like me going into the Cararra forum yammering away about all the neato features coming in Vue 6 Infinite. Which hasn't reached the alpha state yet to my knowledge. Fortunately, I have more couth, better manners, and far more interesting things to do with my time than engaging in such behavior.

Carrara 5 beta is available to all people who have upgraded from version 4. We are under no NDA as it is not the current beta that the official testers are using but it is an impressively stable version nonetheless. I'm not getting into all this crap throwing but suffice it to say that I have moved from Vue 5 / Infinite to Carrara 5 pro and am more than happy with my choice as it is right for MY toolkit and works as advertised.

Maybe i should throw in here: Agiel, you do an excellent job as moderator.

Rids; Ah. And not having the package, I couldn't know that. Okayfine. So they use the staged beta method? That's cool, and an excellent way to extend the pool of tested configurations. Personally, I think that should be the preferred method. I don't particularly like crap throwing myself. But occasionally, the amount thrown does require a response. And what Wabe said. ;)

Quote Dale B" "Ah. And not having the package, I couldn't know that. Okayfine. So they use the staged beta method? That's cool, and an excellent way to extend the pool of tested configurations. Personally, I think that should be the preferred method. End Quote.

This is what I ment by reading before posting and coming to a conclusion. It is a known fact all over the Internet that Carara 5 is in beta and can be used by carrara people with no strings attached.

This is what causes a lot of these flames when people butt in not knowing the facts. :)

People you can let e-on know what you not satisfied with and not flame others doing it. I have not liked the encryption, copy protection from day 1 when it was announced.
Reason being it want keep people from using warez versions of it which can be found all over the Internet. Same will happen with the models. Prove me wrong if can.

I personaly think its caused more problems than what it is worth software wise and hard feelings with lots of people.

Message edited on: 12/03/2005 07:58 I would much rather see the store run like DAZ, Rdna and not have all the code attached to Vue that has to be for models and meshes to work. Don't understand the being so paranoid about it becomeing warez when reverse Engineering is so easy accomplish by so many people. :)

Message edited on: 12/03/2005 08:01

Same as Rids :)

Same as Wabe. I was following that thread until it exploded into "this app sucks, you should move to this app" argument. Absolutely nothing constructive there. Glad it was locked. Every app has its pros and cons, and we ARE talking about 2 apps that are under $1,000 - and even though LW is NOW under 1k (putting it into the catagory I just mentioned), I think it falls under a different catagory of users. Just pick what you like and use it - go make art and leave mudslinging to politicians.

iloco said: "This is what I ment by reading before posting and coming to a conclusion. It is a known fact all over the Internet that Carara 5 is in beta and can be used by carrara people with no strings attached." Excuse me, but I'm fairly certain I'm on solid ground in saying that at least 96% of 'The Internet' has no clue what Cararra is, never mind any interest in it. I certainly haven't seen any sign of it elsewhere... "This is what causes a lot of these flames when people butt in not knowing the facts. :)" If you are referring to the locked thread, I do believe that Lyne posted about a success she had with Infinite. Not a fanboyish 'This IS The Way Of All Things!', but a simple "I'm happy!' post. Only to be immediately piled on by a group of evangelists for a product (a)not related to the forum, and (b)is not commercially available yet. Those were the -facts-. And the forum moderator locked it when things went too bloody far into the region of evangelism. look up the word, sometimes. Oh, and that freedom of speech thing works both ways. "People you can let e-on know what you not satisfied with and not flame others doing it. I have not liked the encryption, copy protection from day 1 when it was announced." I feel it safe to say everyone who bothers to read the relevant boards figured that one out long ago. So why do you bother to continually repeat yourself? It doesn't add weight to your argument. And you can let E-on know anything you want....through their official website. Because big surprise here, they do not have the time to be webcrawlers, and there is no one who bothers combing all the fora and compiling a list and sending it to E-on's staff. The colloquialism 'farting into a hurricane' comes to mind here regarding what effect the Vue fora actually have at the company. "Reason being it want keep people from using warez versions of it which can be found all over the Internet. Same will happen with the models. Prove me wrong if can. I personaly think its caused more problems than what it is worth software wise and hard feelings with lots of people." So by that logic, no software should have any kind of registration, and all these companies should just give it all away because some twit can reverse engineer and post it to usenet or P2P. The entire point that you seem to have missed with the key encryption scheme is that it ties =that particular plant or purchase= to the registered copy of =one person's application=. Making it quite a bit easier to find out who put the copyrighted material on the net in the first place. It isn't about 'prevention', and it never has been; it's about having the ability to track the little scab down who did it, so legal action can be taken if neccesary. Both Davo and Dendras (and I'm fairly sure quite a few other vendors have as well) introduced file variances into their for sale items, so that if something ever showed up where it shouldn't, they would know exactly who bought it to begin with.

Not going to argue with you Dale but if you like to discuss and want proof I would be glad to meet you and have coffee to prove what I said above. The forum is no place to discuss things I know to be facts that you must not understand from you reply. Pm me and I give you my phone number or send me yours and I will call you on my dime to explain a few things I know to be facts. Is that Fair enough to not have this thread explode into another as was locked. :)

:)

Quote "Excuse me, but I'm fairly certain I'm on solid ground in saying that at least 96% of 'The Internet' has no clue what Cararra is, never mind any interest in it. I certainly haven't seen any sign of it elsewhere..."

I'm sure this could be said for any software 3d/music etc.

Unless you are involved in such hobbies, most people have no clue what ANY of it is.

I could interview a million people in Atlanta & only about 1% if not less would have any idea what Vue/Poser/Carrara/Terregen/Maya etc is, likewise for music Reason/FruityLoops/Cakewalk/Sam etc.

That proves zip/zero/nothing IMHO and in addition has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.

In addition, name calling, false accusations and the beligerance & arrogance & snobbery being displayed in these couple threads is just amazing.

Added, I HATE sofware evangelism or evangelism in any form. Doesn't matter if it's Vue/Carrara/terrgen etc. It's one thing to be excited about software, but at times(and not just referring to here)I feel like it's 2AM & I've awoke to a late night infomercial being spoken by Tony Little in all his glory >:(

Message edited on: 12/03/2005 13:40

Hey, life could be worse, you could have purchased the Maxwell Renderer...now, if there is a software release to get angry about, thats the one. Waiting months and months...and months and months for a standalone rendering software that don't render that you have already payed for and has guys on the furums giving you a list as long as your arm for bug work-a-rounds...class, just class, if you ask me.

Cheers

Message edited on: 12/03/2005 14:19

Not planning on arguing with you either, iloco. And I'll pass on the offer to be converted in private. I much prefer such things in public, as that way there is a record of what is said, and any factual disinformation by either party can be called and proven.

Good excuse Dale. Everything seems to be discussed a lot in private so what I would discuss you would have no fear of it backfiring. You know what will happen if I were to prove you wrong on an open forum and I know it can be done but I will pass so agiel will not have to step in and lock or delete a thread. The offer stands as long as I can breate a breath of fresh air. :) I am only an hour and half away by Interstate. :)

"Good excuse Dale. Everything seems to be discussed a lot in private so what I would discuss you would have no fear of it backfiring." An offer to have this discussion publicly, where you could prove whatever case you are talking about to others as well as myself is an 'excuse'? Oooookayfine. "You know what will happen if I were to prove you wrong on an open forum and I know it can be done but I will pass so agiel will not have to step in and lock or delete a thread. " Actually, I do. I would either say something like 'That was information I haven't heard before. Where did it come from?' Or 'I guess you are right on that issue.' Or 'You are so wrong, and here are the reasons why I say this'. I've been wrong about things before, and will be again. It's called being human. Let's face it, at the moment, all you have done is tell me I am wrong about something. Nowhere have you stated what I am supposed to be in error on. I'm not a telepath; this is merely a port 80 text/graphic interface. What exactly am I so wrong about? "he offer stands as long as I can breate a breath of fresh air. :) I am only an hour and half away by Interstate. :)" Maybe someday if we can both get to Dragon-Con when Rosity is there. As I said, I do not meet net aquaintances privately one on one. Call it a response to having to help a friend evade a rather persistant net stalker, and leave it at that. The details are not mine to give.

I for sure have nothing to hide and where I meet people means I don't need others to hear what I have to say. I would like nothing better than meet people in person so as to get better idea whom I am talking to instead of a user name on a computer. I have visit lots of people I have meet on the Internet and yet to have had a bad experience from the meeting of any of them. One person I met and visited in British Columbia and have flew back each summer for a weeks vaction the last four years. I respect your wishes and maybe one day you will still take me up on my offer. I will be glad to give you any info you want about me and you can call the local attorties to confirm anything I say or give to you. I can honestly say I am a person of my word. I have nothing to hide from anyone. :) My last comment in this thread. btw: the same holds true for anyone else who wants to meet for coffee or a face to face talk. :)

There are a lot of points here to think about.

People wouldn't be leaving this forum if e-on did their job and made stable software instead of messing around with Cornucopia.

How many updates, lately, have been to make Cornucopia junk work? And then the update removed when it caused more problems.

So don't blame the messenger. The human messenger who may show feelings of a human nature and post their anger at semi-expensive software now working as advertised.

Agiel, put fault where fault lies with e-on because if they made software that worked better nobody would have complained. I don't find it logical to blame upset posters for people leaving the forum.

I also don't see how you know the end results of any of the negative posts. How could you know what posts have what outcome and who reads them. Maybe the president of e-on read some of my negative posts and is rethinking something right now as I write this. Why be a know it all when there is so much left to know.

Dale, I don't take any stock in anything you write. The pine trees were redone before and this is the third time. The semantics to the bonny clump being new and having upside down leaves is old to me regardless of what anyone at cornucopia says or thinks. And the free content at cornucopia excuse is just that an excuse. Free items don't have to take any time away from from debugging.

To me the history goes like this.

There were some problems with vue and some of them were fixed. Some more problems arose but they were not fixed. Cornucopia came along and even more problems developed. And now I am left waiting.

My main problems are:

Solid Growth trees that have stretched textures. Especially annoying when the trees are used in ecosystems.

Render Cows not working.

Procedural terrains not consistent.

Instant crashes when doing menial tasks like using the text editor.

Poor stability when using Open GL.

Memory leaks, render size & texture size constraints.

I imagine that many of the people who are offended by upset posters are beta testers for vue and are protecting their feelings.

The main fact is many bugs get by e-on's free working beta testers and they are at fault as is e-on.

I think blame should go where it belongs. I find it ironic that this blame gets put back on me by the people I think are responsible for vue's problems.

JMHO

"There are a lot of points here to think about. People wouldn't be leaving this forum if e-on did their job and made stable software instead of messing around with Cornucopia. " Correction: e-on is providing server space, the use of their web monkey, and some work on the new Solid Growth plants. That's about it. The rest of their team is involved in applications work. "How many updates, lately, have been to make Cornucopia junk work? And then the update removed when it caused more problems. " To date there have been 15 updates, including the 3 initial busted 5.08 patches. Those supplanted each other, then e-on rolled back to the last 5.07. That's three. Then there were two more, IIRC, that were accidentally posted active, then pulled. So that makes 5 (and before anyone says there hasn't been that many, the mods at C3D have been testing a new update before it goes onto the beta page, so that any showstoppers get caught before it does). "So don't blame the messenger. The human messenger who may show feelings of a human nature and post their anger at semi-expensive software now working as advertised." And don't be surprised when the human beings on the other sides of the equation get fed up with antics and return fire. "Agiel, put fault where fault lies with e-on because if they made software that worked better nobody would have complained. I don't find it logical to blame upset posters for people leaving the forum." There's logical and factual. And if the facts are that those mentioned posters have shown up elsewhere in other Vue fora, stating that they left here because of the constant whining and poisonous atmosphere in what was once the best source of help for Vue around, then whatever logical deduction you may have is rendered meaningless by the facts of those people's own words. "I also don't see how you know the end results of any of the negative posts. How could you know what posts have what outcome and who reads them. Maybe the president of e-on read some of my negative posts and is rethinking something right now as I write this. Why be a know it all when there is so much left to know. Dale, I don't take any stock in anything you write." Is that a 'I'm a liar' statement, or a 'I've made my mind up and am gonna stamp my widdly footsies no matter what and tyou can't stop me!' statement? Just curious. "The pine trees were redone before and this is the third time." 1 time for exploding geometry and getting the broken reg key stuff out of it. 1 time for inverted needle textures. 1 time for non-centered hinge points on the alpha planes for the needles and a less serious case of exploding geometry. You're point being what? That things aren't perfect? Welcome to the real world of software development. "The semantics to the bonny clump being new and having upside down leaves is old to me regardless of what anyone at cornucopia says or thinks." Ah. Stamping the widdle footsies. Got it. And of course it's semantics...or more accurately, advertising. Not for the likes of you or me, but for those newbies who never entered the official e-on site when they were sold there. From that perspective, they are 'new'. As for inverted leaves....hmm. I've heard this from you...and from a former member who called him/herself 'BonnyClump'. Other than that, not a lot of people seem to be aware of this issue..... "And the free content at cornucopia excuse is just that an excuse. Free items don't have to take any time away from from debugging." No.....but dealing with adding a new module to a website, then the inevitable bugs and glitches, -does-. "To me the history goes like this. There were some problems with vue and some of them were fixed. Some more problems arose but they were not fixed. Cornucopia came along and even more problems developed. And now I am left waiting. My main problems are: Solid Growth trees that have stretched textures. Especially annoying when the trees are used in ecosystems." Oh? Which ones? "Render Cows not working." I believe you've been asked about hardware and version number quite a few times, and never provided much. Can't do much without some basic info, you know. "Procedural terrains not consistent." How so? Do you have a screen capture or render that can be used to show the problem? "Instant crashes when doing menial tasks like using the text editor." There was one update several updates ago that introduced that bug. It has been fixed in the latest updates. "Poor stability when using Open GL." Much of which could easily be the result of system issues. Which you won't discuss in any detail. "Memory leaks, render size & texture size constraints." True enough on the leaks, although that is improving steadily. texture size constraints are a combination of memory requirements, the aforementioned leaks, and apparently a change in the standard format of some kinds of graphic files. Render size is also linked to those memory issues. All are improving. "I imagine that many of the people who are offended by upset posters are beta testers for vue and are protecting their feelings." Then you are mistaken. The small number of beta testers for Infinite still post here; the ones who have left were not in the beta pool. They were just users and lovers of the application. "The main fact is many bugs get by e-on's free working beta testers and they are at fault as is e-on." How to win friends and not insult people you don't even know. Too bad such a book doesn't exist. You could stand to use a refresher course. "I think blame should go where it belongs. I find it ironic that this blame gets put back on me by the people I think are responsible for vue's problems. JMHO" But blame =IS= being put where it belongs. E-on has its own forums (assuming you haven't been banned for TOS violations), and they have a web based tech support access gateway. That is the place for actual technical issues to be resolved (considering that e-on is the only ones with access to the source code). Forums elsewhere have no real impact on software houses on a daily basis, save in special cases. There is a small, loud group of malcontents who find it almost impossible to stay away when anyone expresses joy, or happiness, or satisfaction in this product. A brief scan of the archives will reveal the same names everytime, and their words are still there for any to read. These aren't conversations where the words waft away on the breeze, only to remain in the hearer's memory....which can be challenged. This is text, and the records are there for anyone who is curious to examine. And many of the people you 'think' are responsible have no input or control over anything e-on does. I'm no employee, and certainly have no access to the source. Access to a few more facts, possibly. Beyond that, I'm just a forum weenie like everyone else here.

Although I think Agiel does a very good job here, I personnaly wish he would be less patient with trouble makers. Reasoning and mature conversation is obviously not always the best solution.

You know petshoo you are right in a way but then again if the thread does not break TOS it might be best to let it run its course.
Really how many ways can a person defend something with only limited knowledge of the actual facts. :)

Those that do not want to read or comment as I see it don't ahve to clcik on the thread, no one is twisting their arm to do it. Guess its just human nature to want to see what is in this type of thread. These type of threads get more hits and views than all the others so go figure. :)

The only thing that bugs me is we never hear from any of e-on people in any discussions but instead its those who as Dale say is just another weanie like all of us. To me that is poor representation for e-on and Vue. :) I personally think e-on needs someone for PR to its many users and a lot of these type of threads would not exist. Put the cards on the table for people to know what is going on and not depend on people such as that is trying to do it for them. :) That would be a big step in the right direction I thinik but I can only suggest because they will do as they like in the final decison making process.

Message edited on: 12/04/2005 08:49

Message edited on: 12/04/2005 08:52

"The only thing that bugs me is we never hear from any of e-on people in any discussions but instead its those who as Dale say is just another weanie like all of us. To me that is poor representation for e-on and Vue. :)" While that is a good point, do you have ANY idea how many 3D sites/communities are out there? Any software company would need an army of people perusing the web to get to them all - and yes, I realize RR is one of the big ones, but they just don't have the time. PurpleCloud - you're in a small community theaterhouse, screaming to all the volunteer actors about the manufacturer of the LIGHTS. You're not even in a Broadway Theaterhouse - just a little side one. If you have an actual beef, call the manufacturer - or email them. I had a problem with Vue, email e-on tech support, got a pretty quick response, and my problem was in their next patch which fixed it. I'm sure I wasn't alone as I don't imagine a software company would add something to a patch for just 1 message, but it was nice for the feedback. Email them, call them, whatever - you're wasting your time trashing a software in any RR forum - or any forum outside of one the actual company's site. And people WILL leave the forums if all that's in there are people trashing the app when someone has a question about how to do something. If the response is something like, "You can't do that function because the app and its updates are useless - but if you switch to THIS app it works great!" they won't tend to return... Go figure... Final story, then I'm going to stop following this thread: A few years ago, my friends and I went out to a diner for lunch. There was a group of guys 3 booths away having a heated political debate - they got up to YELLING their opinions about federal funding and "tax breaks for the rich." We realized that not only had WE stopped all conversation to listen, so had most everyone else. Yes, people most often do that as was pointed out above - it's like train wreck - you don't wanna look, but you can't stop yourself from looking. The manager asked them to lower their voices, as we could all tell if they got beligerent with her they would have been asked to leave, so they quieted down but kept the debate going. THEY'RE NEVER GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING IN A DINER!!! They can scream and pound the table and get as passionate as they want, but there will be NO CHANGE IN THE POLITICS THEY ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT. Write your local Congressman (or in this case e-on) and stop yelling at regular people in public, because WE can't change anything. That's all DaleB is trying to get across - he's not the defender or e-on, but someone looking at ANY software objectively. They've got bugs - fact'o'life. That's why there's a "testing" phase - to catch them and fix the ones they catch - and they don't catch them all. That's why EVERY company releases patches and updates - you never noticed that? They get feedback from their users about problems, and TRY TO FIX THEM. But if you only give feedback to US nothing will be solved. THAT is the problem Agiel (and I'm sure others) is trying to cut off in the forums. We complain to each other, not the manufacturers, and the forums are being used less and less about learning the software, and the exchange of creative ideas. Go create art with WHATEVER app pleases you. Good luck all- -Lew ;-)

The Cornucopia tree (singular) that had texture problems was the broadleaf straight trunk, and it has been repaired. If you bought the tree you received an e-mail asking you to redownload. My render cows work , there is a problem though with the Cornucopia pines, which were removed to be fixed. They don't network render. I don't see any problem with proc terrains. Not consistent? what does this mean? Crashes: only crashes I have is with complex boolean operations, and yes, this sucks. Texture size problems are RAM related, do people using high end 3D softwares ( and I don't mean Carrara, lol!)have this issue? This would be interesting to know. Memory leaks, hmmm, well, yes, absolutely. To be fair again, I have to say that the majority of the "new" cornucopia plants are not new at all, they were already for sale for Vue4. So issues, yes but c'mon, are all these flaming posts worth the trouble?

To thundering1 and bruno021 - great comments!

"To be fair again, I have to say that the majority of the "new" cornucopia plants are not new at all, they were already for sale for Vue4." I believe these plants (Bonny, Poplar, Orange etc) , at C3D are different to any others that were previously available for Vue 3 and 4 in that they do react to animated wind. The ones available on the "extras" CD (for those that purchased them for Vue 3) still don't react to animated wind. "Texture size problems are RAM related" Not always Bruno, there can be some issues related to when a non-square texture is applied (and not only with Vue). I think this needs to be looked at by E-on (if not already) as memory load doesn't seem to relate to bitmap texture size (when compared to other programs). Vue has some pretty quirky ways of loading textures (i.e. having to spin bump maps 180 compared to the colour map etc) which all takes up superflous resouces. "So issues, yes but c'mon, are all these flaming posts worth the trouble?" Agreed Bruno. As I mentioned earlier; it could be worse, this could be a Maxwell forum ;) Cheers

The plant texture issue was discussed before. The point is that the settings are optimised for individual use, in ecosystems some could cause strange effects. The creator had to decide for which use the setting should be, both was not possible and because it easily can be changed it is not a big problem anyway. Possible correction. When you use those plants in ecosystems, switch the material setting for mixed materials from global / world to "per object" / local. Then it should work correctly. But of course, i don't really know what purplecloud was refering to, he was very vague in his description.

thundering1, bruno021, lingrif, and Cheers; Thank you for the understanding where I'm coming from.

Attached Link: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/page.cgi?id=bug-writing.html

The analogy of people fighting at dinner is not at all the same as someone posting a thread. The analogy would be better if someone picked up the phone on a conversation and kept listening after they heard something that made them depressed. I can't feel sad for these people for they do it to themselves in more than one way. If you feel depressed from reading these posts don't read them. It is that simple.

I still think the genesis of Cornucopia and the new encryption method which doesn't need serial numbers is proof that Cornucopia is changing the way vue works.

Nonetheless, developers, programmers, and beta testers are the people to blame for the increasing amount of bugs in vue that never get fix.

Get depressed over that and not the messenger that speaks the mind.

And why are your feelings more important than mind. Did you ever think I feel depressed when I think how I spent $1000 on software that doesn't work as advertised.

I have posted my complaints to vue techs until I am blue and nothing comes of it. I have posted my problems in other forums about vue. So for anyone to think that I haven't makes me believe that they are not rational. I have updated and things get worse.

Dale, I don't take stock in anything you write because I find you not to be a good problem solver as are most of the people who work for e-on. Also, Dale, I don't care for your filibuster style of writing and semantics.

One last bug that should have never been and caught by any bright beta tester. Bump maps didn't align with textures. What a step backwards!!! I find vue to be a lot less professional when all the free-working unprofessional people started working for it.

I think this thread has come to an end. I disagree with the mob's rule and do so freely and openly.

And my computer is great with plenty of power and ram. It works well with all other programs except for the latest vue infinite.

"And why are your feelings more important than mind. Did you ever think I feel depressed when I think how I spent $1000 on software that doesn't work as advertised."

Richard, so why have you bought upgrade after upgrade over such a long period? If it upsets you so much how terrible Vue is, how unresponsive e-on are, why not try some other software? Nobody is forcing you to buy from e-on, and nobody at e-on, Renderosity or Cornucopia is deliberately trying to upset you.

"I still think the genesis of Cornucopia and the new encryption method which doesn't need serial numbers is proof that Cornucopia is changing the way vue works." Think as you wish; that is your right. But just because you think it does not make it reality. Oh, and the serial numbers -are- there, actually; just embedded in the installer at runtime when you download it. "Nonetheless, developers, programmers, and beta testers are the people to blame for the increasing amount of bugs in vue that never get fix." You forgot a few guilty parties there, friend: 1) OS developers who change standardized programming structures for their own ends. 2) Users who load software without considering the possible consequences to their system's stability. 3) All the malware and spyware writers. I could go on, but I think the point is made. It is simply impossible to write software that will work on 5 or 6 generations of hardware, covering hundreds of separate vendors all fighting for their slice of the pie, and play nicely with the thousands of bits of code out there. Deal with it. "Get depressed over that and not the messenger that speaks the mind. And why are your feelings more important than mind. Did you ever think I feel depressed when I think how I spent $1000 on software that doesn't work as advertised. " They aren't. But they have no -greater- importance than mine, either. And the hard fact is that =you= spent that money. I didn't spend it for you. And if one piece of software not performing to your standards actually depresses you so badly, I would suggest selling it and moving on before you inflict more emotional harm on yourself. There are other packages out there, and I'm sure you could get a good price for the thing on ebay. Problem solved. "I have posted my complaints to vue techs until I am blue and nothing comes of it. I have posted my problems in other forums about vue. So for anyone to think that I haven't makes me believe that they are not rational. I have updated and things get worse. Dale, I don't take stock in anything you write because I find you not to be a good problem solver as are most of the people who work for e-on. Also, Dale, I don't care for your filibuster style of writing and semantics." Well.... a)I don't work for e-on. Volunteer. b)Considering you seem to want someone to wave the Wand of Wizardly Wonder at their screen and magically make things all better, I am not at all troubled by your (based on extremely limited information) 'opinion' of my skills at =any= level. Sorry. I know you don't like my 'style' of writing. I take your points one at a time, and avoid broad generalizations and grand hyperbolic sweeps of discourse. Makes it ever so much harder to respond to without getting into actual -facts-, doesn't it? Plus I don't get angry, thereby robbing you of your opportunity to play the martyr, abused by the evil henchman.... "One last bug that should have never been and caught by any bright beta tester. Bump maps didn't align with textures. What a step backwards!!! I find vue to be a lot less professional when all the free-working unprofessional people started working for it." Wow. I wonder how many professionals you just insulted with that particular statement? I can't say I've ever noticed that bump map issue. Have to see if its been fixed yet.... "I think this thread has come to an end. I disagree with the mob's rule and do so freely and openly." And you expect a monument erected where, precisely? "And my computer is great with plenty of power and ram. It works well with all other programs except for the latest vue infinite." It is not the size or power of the tool in question, but how one uses it that determines the true effectiveness of it.Whether you can deal with the reality of it or not, far too many people (as in the majority, apparently) use Infinite and Esprit successfully on a routine basis. The success rate rather decisively places the onus on =you= to prove your system config is not involved in your issues. And you refuse with broad, dataless boasting such as the quote above. As John said. There's this new Cararra. Terragen. Mojoworld. World Construction Kit. Hey, Bryce is even being actively developed once again. You have lots of options. If you refuse to take them, that choice is yours.

roflmao.............Reminds me of elementary school where kids say my dads bigger than your dad. "lol"