I recently happily purchased Poser 8 direct from SmithMicro, taking advantage of their introductory offer. They charged me for the product, plus UPS postage.

I have just received the package, plus a nasty unexpected doorstep demand from UPS for a further $48 / £29 for import tax and 'brokerage'. It would have been nice if SmithMicro had stated this on the original invoice, but sadly they appear NOT to want to be one of the better quality US businesses who kindly check up on extra charges and notify customers in advance - before paying.

So, if you live in the UK and buy direct from SmithMicro US, then whether your software is on speacial offer (like mine) or you are paying the full price - expect to suddenly pay a damned site more when it gets to your door. Of course I don't mind paying import tax, but as I said, SmithMicro don't appear to be one of those companies who choose to include it in their bill. It is NOT good business, because UPS expected a cash payment, which I didn't have on me, and paying by card took an extra fifteen minutes using my phone, which delayed the UPS driver as I had to listen to a very lengthy phone menu of options before I actually got to pay!

Next time I buy a Poser update, I am ordering from Amazon.uk, because when they say "Delivery charge total" they really mean it with no hidden extras.

Zippy, thats not SM's fault.
thats UPS. trust me. they do it whatever company uses them.... I've been stung by them before.

Thank you for your comment.

It may not be SM's fault, but SM quoted me a UPS delivery total charge, and SM obviously seemed happy with such an estimate. Other companies I've purchased from have quoted me extra charges and import tax to the UK.

Someone has got to flag this to SM before more folk get caught out.

( I almost ordered the DVD version upgrade !   Thank goodness I did not press the pay button before reading this. )

I was planning to order the DVD but at the last minute I chose to download instead, looks like I made the right choice for more than one reason.

Quote - Thank you for your comment.

It may not be SM's fault, but SM quoted me a UPS delivery total charge, and SM obviously seemed happy with such an estimate. Other companies I've purchased from have quoted me extra charges and import tax to the UK.

These fees are not disclosed at the time of purchase by the seller as many sellers from the U.S. are themselves unaware of this.  As a result, there have been two class-action lawsuits filed against UPS by Canadians. UPS also doesn't contact the recipient to notify them about a package and ask if they want to clear the package's customs in person, or to have UPS do it for them, and let them know the charges in advance.  If you attend in person to do it yourself, there is no additional charge.

There have been class action lawsuits in Canada against UPS for their covert charges.  Their charges include Customs Brokerage Fees, Disbursement Fees (also known as Bond Fees) and C.O.D. Fees (to collect the amount from you) plus applicable Goods and Services Taxes or in the case of Europeans, VAT..

I bought the 3-Axis Video Course for Poser 5. I was subject to S&H ($10.00), plus exchange and duty, which I expected. Imagine my surprise when UPS delivered and wanted a further $50.00 for Brokerage fees. That's how much they claim it cost them to process the paperwork at the border. That's almost 100% the rate of what I paid for the course which I think was $69 USD. PLUS it took 7 weeks to get here!

I could have had it shipped FedEx for $17.99 air shipping, and it would have arrived at my door in 2 days. PLUS there wouldn't have been any additional charges because FedEx included "Brokerage" in their shipping fees.

Another time I ordered a stethoscope which I had calculated out would be cheaper after paying exchange than if I had purchased it in Canada.  Unknowingly to me, the company shipped via UPS instead of USPS, which resulted in UPS trying to collect an additional $95 (50% of the value of the stethoscope) at my door in order to give me the package. Again, brokerage fees!!  I refused the parcel and contacted the company and told them the stethoscope was on their way back and why.

UPS is fine for shipping around the US, but when it comes to "international", it sucks!!!!

This is the reason I always get download versions of programs instead of the boxed physically shipped to me, unless of course the company uses FedEx and not UPS..

If you want to read about the horrors of UPS customers, Google anything about UPS brokerage fees.  Some people are saying that the cost of the brokerage fees on warranty return items, or gifts have amounted to nearly 100% of the total value of the item in question.

thanks Acadia.. you explained that a lot clearer than I could...

Is there at least a disclaimer at SM or CP websites to warn non-USA buyers in advance that additional S&H ( and perhaps even  import taxes ) may be payable upon delivery ?

What about over here at Renderosity for hard goods ?  I think there is... cannot recall off hand.  Ebay warns in advance as well.

It's digital download for me then.....

Thank you all for your comments, I don't feel so bad now towards SmithMicro. However, digital downloads are supposed to be subject to UK taxes, too, but for some odd reason sometimes one gets charged, sometimes not, even though the total is above the permitted limit. I only mention that it is perhaps better to buy software from Amazon because they've always been very open about charges, and of course there's no need to worry about import tax which is included in the price. I shall write to SmithMicro and inform them of my unexpected costs.

Yes, infinity, there usually is a disclaimer, hidden in the notes, but that doesn't explain that the more helpful companies usually state the full costs at time of order.

By the way, after I paidd SmithMicro on line for Poser, they didn't send me a receipt, or a notification of shipping, and/or delivery date, and I have mail catchers to make sure I get all SmithMicro email.

I'll connect with CS later this morning about clarifying the international order additional fees and taxes issue.

I hope you can consider using anyone other than UPS. myself, I bought Vue 6 Easel from content paradise during your 50% off sale.

UPS hit me for a $45 charge on it... basically what I paid for it from you in the first place, without the shipping fees you charged.  my own fault for not reading the page properly and seeing it was UPS you were using, but it means I won't be ordering anything from you that requires physical shipment. I refuse to pay the UPS extortion fees.

Stay away from UPS. They've charged me customs fees for books, even when books here are tax free (and they knew that).

Yep, I've just got the UPS note through my door - the £29.42 charge is more than 30% of the cost of the software and shipping and handling and there is no explanation or breakdown of the charges either on the note or on their website.

Checking with customs, there should be import duty and VAT due but that doesn't come to anyway near the £29.42 - clearly the extra are the UPS charges.

I shall be contacting trading standards and SM should make very clear at the point of purchase that the courier they use will apply additional charges over and above VAT and import duty so I will be complaining to them as well.

The last physical Poser package I purchased was delivered from Ireland so avoided this, in truth I have never had to pay customs charges on anything I've purchased before, software, books, DVDs or games, just lucky upto now I guess :-(

This is the only 'disclaimer' on the SM site

"If you live outside the United States, custom and tariff fees may apply according to your countries import laws. These fees are not collected by this company, and this company does not have control of these fees."

No mention of addtional UPS charges

I guess I opened up a can of worms here. Hopefully this has been constructive and helpful to SM so they can iron out those issues.

We should be able to choose other carriers when placing the order.

Problem is, it's not SM. it's UPS.... they are telling SM it's one price. so SM charge us that. then UPS are tacking on their fee once they have it in their hands. you can't blame SM for that (and with my own experience above I don't blame SM/CP for it. I blame UPS)

I've found information that now Fed-Ex are running the same scam.

Hi Guys-  Sorry for the confusion.  We have not collected customs fees ahead of time and they are charged at the time of delivery. 

CP and Mysmithmicro includes in their Buying/Shipping FAQs:

I live outside the US. Do I have to pay customs fees?

If you live outside the United States, custom and tariff fees may apply according to your countries import laws. These fees are not collected by this company, and this company does not have control of these fees.

erm Starlet?

the problem is not the Custom and Tariff fees. it's the PROCESSING fee UPS add on.

I found the charge I got hit with - Custom and Tarriff - $8. UPS "processing fee" $37.

But they do tell you about this. Right under your shopping cart it says:

Frequently Asked Questions

1. What is Download Protection?

Protect your purchase with Download Protection. We will keep a back-up copy of your digital file should you need to re-download it for any reason. This service will enable you to make multiple downloads of digital computer software products purchased in a single order and downloaded from this website for a period of two (2) years after the date of purchase.

2. What is Backup CD?

Protect your purchase with a backup CD. Get a backup CD of your downloadable software mailed directly to you on a CD. This feature is only available as an additional service to the purchase of a digital product and cannot be purchased as a stand alone product.

3. What payment methods do you accept?

We accept Visa, MasterCard/EuroCard, Discover, American Express, Diner's Club, and JCB. Alternatively, you can also pay by money order or bank transfer.

4. Do I have to pay sales tax/VAT?

Click on the last one and it says: "Digital products sold into some European Countries will have local VAT (Tax) applied. For details click here." All the details are supplied.

EDIT: oops, cross-post. In my experience it is quite normal for the carrier to levy a handling charge. It's not particularly welcome, but is standard practice.

Quote - erm Starlet?

the problem is not the Custom and Tariff fees. it's the PROCESSING fee UPS add on.

I found the charge I got hit with - Custom and Tarriff - $8. UPS "processing fee" $37.

afaik, that is still out of our control, and part of the processing through customs.

NO IT"S NOT CUSTOMS

it's a fee added on by UPS THEMSELVES
please can you READ what we are saying??

please it's clearly posted above several times. I'm not saying it's you. I'm just wanting you to stop using UPS and offer the United States postal that does not do that!

In order for a handling charge to be considered 'fair and reasonable' under UK law it must bear some relation to the costs actually incurred by UPS.   Granted there will be some additional minor overhead in paying the customs fees but given that they are already being paid a fee by SM for the shipping and handling this additional 'fee' does not seem reasonable, It will be interesting to see what Trading Standards say.

Of course we expect to pay import taxes, but I'm not sure about UPS 'Brokerage'.

Well, we have an odd little custom in the UK, putting a star next to the price of goods, referring to a sub note on the main product page "Price subject/or may be subject to conditions" instead of stating "Only" next to the cost ammount. That reminder tends to nudge us in the UK to look up what the conditions are. And maybe you'll tell me I'm wrong, but aren't there also often import taxes between US states, a clearer warning is helpful at the very least. I still don't understand what the UPS brokerage is for, if it's not part of the quoted delivery cost? Please enlighten me.

I'm giving up on this.

thank you Efstarlet for reminding me why I stopped dealing with content paradise altogether. it's like smashing your head into a brick wall.

when I get my poser 8 I'll be going directly to the SM store and hopefully bypassing CP altogether.

walks away

Ups are in the wrong, under EEC regulations brought in any software even downloadedor anything else bought from a country outside the EEC, the company should charge VAT-Tax of the country ordered from.
It is up to customs when any packages from abroard come into the country if they want to open the package, and they can then charge import duty, and the post office charge for repackage.
UPS are stealing tax from the country they deliver to, certain goods imported into uk are EXEMPT from import duty.

No, it isn't a customs charge per say but it IS still out of SM/CP's control.  I know because I used to make and ship jewelry to other countires and I WOULD call UPS to verify each and every charge that would be added to I could tell my customers exactly what it would cost. 

GUESS WHAT?  UPS added on an additional "processing fee" that they didn't even disclose to me!  That is why I no longer ship anything anywhere.

Quote - No, it isn't a customs charge per say but it IS still out of SM/CP's control.  I know because I used to make and ship jewelry to other countires and I WOULD call UPS to verify each and every charge that would be added to I could tell my customers exactly what it would cost. 

GUESS WHAT?  UPS added on an additional "processing fee" that they didn't even disclose to me!  That is why I no longer ship anything anywhere.

Ha ha...has anyone tried phoning UPS and other carriers in the UK? It is like trying to get through to God!

Quote -

Ha ha...has anyone tried phoning UPS and other carriers in the UK? It is like trying to get through to God!

I have a toll-free number for their international "customer service" but I doubt it would be of any use to people outside the U.S.

800-782-7892 if anyone (SM or CP maybe?) wants to give them a call.

I should tell SM that I'm delighted to have the new version of Poser, and I now look forward to the usual run of rushed program updates because bugs are apprently not the fault of the manufacturer either. If not, then SM will be the first company to release software that is actually ready to use without problems - or in the case of Poser 7, repeatedly crash the computer until someone on the forums 'guesses' what is going wrong. There aren't any updates, are there...good, I shall have fun then.

Quote -> Quote - erm Starlet?

the problem is not the Custom and Tariff fees. it's the PROCESSING fee UPS add on.

I found the charge I got hit with - Custom and Tarriff - $8. UPS "processing fee" $37.

afaik, that is still out of our control, and part of the processing through customs.

Actually, it is in SM's control :)
They simply have to either switch carriers or offer a choice of carrier to their customer at the time of order processing. 

In a nutshell, people are not complaining about legitimate charges such as taxes and duty. What they are complaining about are the additional fees that UPS tacks on such as "UPS processing fee" , the "COD fee" that they tack on on top of the duty, taxes and processing fee because they are having to now collect money from you at your door.  And to top that off, they add tax to the whole kit and caboodle.  

The class action lawsuits sum it up nicely:

Quote - UPS failed to obtain consumers’ consent to act as a customs broker; to disclose the existence and/or amount of the brokerage fee; and to provide consumers with the opportunity or disclose to them how to arrange for customs clearance by themselves.

There are ways for the customer to avoid having to pay these extortion fees from UPS:

1.  The company shipping the item could send it via another carrier such as:
   FedEx
   USPS
   UPS Worldwide Express
   UPS worldwide Express saver
   UPS Worldwide Expedited

2.  The customer can attend at the UPS office in their city and process the package through on their own. This way they pay only the applicable taxes and duty.

However, neither are in the control of the customer because:

1.  The company shipping the parcel determines the mode of shipping.

2.  UPS doesn't contact the customer to let them know there is a package there for them. They do not give the customer a choice of whether they want to clear the package themselves or if they want UPS to do it for them.  UPS  just goes ahead and acts as the broker and then charges their fees for having done so.

Quote - I'm giving up on this.

thank you Efstarlet for reminding me why I stopped dealing with content paradise altogether. it's like smashing your head into a brick wall.

when I get my poser 8 I'll be going directly to the SM store and hopefully bypassing CP altogether.

walks away

If they ship via UPS, that won't help you.  You'll still get charged the UPS fees.

When I pre ordered P7 two years ago EF let me choose between UPS and USPS. I choosed USPS and when the parcel arrived in January in Germany at  Frankfurt Airport and was through customs, DHL picked it up and only delivered it to my nearest local customs office. I recieved a note from the customs office to pick up my parcel and to bring the invoice so they can calculate the import tax. There was no additional customs fee on software in January 2008, I only had to pay the 19% import tax and that was about 23 EURO then. And I did not need to pay any additional fees to DHL for delivering my parcel to the customs office.

Acadia - UPS and UPS worldwide express and expedited aren't the same company?   I believed them only to be the shipping methods.  Does worldwide express or expedited not charge fees the same as UPS normal?  Also, it was mentioned Fedex charges the same fees - does anyone know is this is true from previous purchases elsewhere?  It appears US Postal Service may be the only option?

Since I've been here, over the 8 years and 3 companies, we've used almost every service imaginable in our stores - does anyone remember the crazy Airborne Express days of randomly missing and destroyed packages all over the world?  sigh  THAT was sadness.  We switched to Fedex after that I believe. 

**Can anyone who has received an international shipment of Poser 8 via UPS please send me via sitemail what site you ordered from, your order number, and the fees you were charged at the time of delivery (after you were charged by Smith or CP) so I can compile a report for the warehouse down south and a request for action? **

Thank you!

I bought Poser 2 from MetaCreations and remember the old list server every morning. LOL looked forward to that each day.

   I too have been stung by ups,but the box p8 came in will actually hold 11 dvd cases!   So  why
   don`t sm use a padded envalope ?
     

Quote - Acadia - UPS and UPS worldwide express and expedited aren't the same company?   I believed them only to be the shipping methods.  Does worldwide express or expedited not charge fees the same as UPS normal?  Also, it was mentioned Fedex charges the same fees - does anyone know is this is true from previous purchases elsewhere?  It appears US Postal Service may be the only option?

Thank you!

Same company, different set of rules though

http://www.ups.com/content/ca/en/shipping/cost/zones/customs_clearance.html

Also here, on page 61

http://www.ups.com/media/en/ca/rate_guide_ca.pdf

Here is a breakdown of a few couriers and their "brokerage" charges

http://www.stokecity.ca/orderfromus.shtml

Quote - when I get my poser 8 I'll be going directly to the SM store and hopefully bypassing CP altogether.

Well, I'm in the UK and bought the DL from Content Paradise and took advantage of their 25% off offer - the full version cost me approx. £121 compared to the £190 Smith Micro want if buying from them direct and in £'s sterling. Can't fault them!

Was stung by UPS several years ago - bought the collectors edition of Star Wars Galaxies and was charged a UPS fee in addition to the import duty.

Quote -    I too have been stung by ups,but the box p8 came in will actually hold 11 dvd cases!   So  why
   don`t sm use a padded envalope ?
     

Can you please send me your information?  The head of e commerce has asked me to put together some information on this so we can go to the warehouse with a request, but I need some actual customer information on the fees to present to them. 

Zippy - can you do the same?

We'd like to see what we can change in the future to make this better!  Thanks!

Okay, I will send you the info. By the way, my tiny CD package came in a huge box, too. Before, I've always got my US software in a small package. It's a CD box, not an elephant!

A bit of (related) light relief...my wife bought an artificial diamond for about £600 from the USA via the Internet a few years back, we live in the UK - two weeks later, the Royal Mail put a note through my door saying that they were holding it at their depot and that I needed to go there and pay £4.80 in import tax, levied by HM Customs and Excise...I went to the depot, cheque book in hand.  I hadn't read the note properly; they actually wanted £480, as HMC&E thought it was real.  I had to pay £480 out, and appeal with HMC&E later.  I lost their internal appeal, and would have had to go to court, with a diamond expert, arranged at my own cost, to counter their argument that it was worth £10,000 and reclaim the fee.  I gave up; it took about two years for me to pluck up the courage to ever import anything again.....reading this thread, I don't think I'm going to bother upgrading.....!

Tiny packages in huge boxes...

Totally unrelated to the issue at hand, but I had purchased several DVDs from Amazon many years ago and when they use to ship everything UPS or DHL (or something like that)  Whenever I ordered 3 or more, I always got my shipment, but whenever I ordered two or less, I did not get them. After about the third time this happened to me, Amazon apparently worked with the Shipping company to track the package very closely along with several others in the area. The end result, I am not sure if it was mine in particular, but they busted a ring at the local distribution center for stealing CD and DVD padded envelopes and selling the product at local flea markets. The difference in the orders.. two or less was in an envelope. Three or more was in a box. (Apparently the workers involved were stuffing the DVD and CD envelopes into their pants during their shifts in the sorting room.) After that, no matter how few I order, it arrived in a box about the size of a shoe box. Amazon recently started sending some stuff USPS... no tracking on the Priority mail, but it always arrives eventually. They again use the envelope when sending here if using USPS, but still use the Box if coming UPS.

I will add that I know several people that work for various shipping companies and what these guys did is rare. Apparently the only way they got away with it was they always only did it when they worked together, which was not often enough to raise any alarms earlier.. I suspect that they also got bolder as time went on, but from what I understand, it was very hard to do unless they all were involved.

Well, ratscloset, I'll probably get into moderator trouble for saying this joke but...
"Hey, is that UPS in your pants, or are you just glad to see me?" lol!

Also unrelated to UPS, I'm hearing reports from friends that lots of folk are having problems with the new Poser 8? I can only say that I'm not experiencing any problems at all. This is the first version I've had that seems, so far, stable. Not only that, but I'm thrilled that Poser 8 renders a damned site faster than Poser 7, and I really love the interface. So well done SmithMicro. However, I've only used the basic features so far so my comments may be premature, but so far so good. I think I'll wander over to SM though and check out any updates, you never know.

I've now finally (after numerous e-mails) received a breakdown of the charges from UPS

Breakdown of charges:
VAT              18.42 GBP
Duty              0.00 GBP
Disbursement 11.00 GBP
Total              29.42 GBP

Value of the goods : $129.99 divided by the UK Exchange Rate 1.6436 = £79.08
Cost of Shipping     : £37.42
Total                     : £116.50

Description of the goods : POSER 8 HYBRID DVD using tariff : 9950000000 incurring 0% Duty.

Calculation of Vat:
£116.50 + £6.35 (Delivery Charge from the Point of Entry to the Destination) = £122.85 x 15% (UK Vat Rate) = £18.42

Note that UK customs add on an arbitary £6.35 VAT value adjustment where the shipping rate is not stated on the package, so we are paying VAT not only on the shipping charge but also on an additional £6.35 applied by UK customs.

However, the key part is that UPS are applying an £11 brokerage charge which they should not be doing unless they had offered this service to the end customer and the end customer accepted the service and charge or unless the despatching vendor had contracted this service and made clear to the customer that this service would be applied on the customers behalf and that an additional charge would be made for this service. As neither of these things happened I will attempt to recover this element of the charge and do have grounds for a complaint to UK trading standards. I suggest others who are unhappy also complain (not sure it will get anywhere but hey!)

Interestingly I've now heard back from UK trading standards, this is now common practice and all couriers, including the Post Office now do this. This is because UK customs now only accept payment for import duty and VAT from a particular registered deferment account. If the 'importer' doesn't have such an account then they will automatically take payment from the courier. The courier is allowed to charge an admin fee to cover this.

Trading standards make clear that the fault lies with SM for NOT making clear that such a charge will apply. SM are also at fault for incorrectly labelling the packaging resulting in a customs overcharge of VAT as they apply a standard shipping rate plus adjustment where shipping costs are not shown.

Thus any 'irk' should be directed towards SM for not making this clear and not towards UPS who are following standard UK practice.

just so ppl can see what we're complaining about :

Vue 6 Easel :  - Date: 12-05-2008 13:16:04

1 VEE-C60-DEM-R Vue 6 Easel English Full Version #31788 $89.99 $89.99   $-45.00 $44.99 Disabled    
* Selected options: Delivery: Physical Shipment
      
Payment Method Credit Card (SMVS)
Subtotal US $89.99
Coupon saving US $-45.00 (BlackFriday_dsqcr485)
Discounted subtotal US $44.99
Shipping Method UPS
Standard Canadian Service Shipping cost US $14.51
Tax cost US $0.00 **
TOTAL** US $59.50

now as you see, shipping paid.

on delivery a further charge of $40.75 was demanded.

this breaks down as :

Duty - 0.00
GST - 9.72
UPS Brokage Fee - 29.55
GST on the Brokage fee - 1.48.

Total COD - $40.75.

Quote - I've now finally (after numerous e-mails) received a breakdown of the charges from UPS
Note that UK customs add on an arbitary £6.35 VAT value adjustment where the shipping rate is not stated on the package, so we are paying VAT not only on the shipping charge but also on an additional £6.35 applied by UK customs.

I remember my experience of this sort of thing, many years ago. It is really important to correctly describe the goods. And "correct" in terms of UK taxes is not always obvious. For VAT, books are zero rated. A role-playing game could be classed as a book, if it wasn't in a box with a set of dice, and a special deck of cards. I had a consignment of games delivered, of which about half could have been classed as books. It was a clearance sale by the US publisher, I still got a good deal, but ouch!

It's also interesting, looking at my records, that DAZ 3D always includes a "Shipping" line in their email, while it doesn't look as though Content Paradise ever has.

The point is, it's simpler to have the line in the records for every transaction, with a zero value for a download. That's the sort of explicit nothingness that some thirty years of dealing with government forms has taught me to do. Hiding the details as a single "total value" is pretty stupid. Even if it doesn't turn out to lumber the customer with a bigger bill.

It does mention it under "Important notes" in your cart as you proceed to check out.

4th note down "Customers requesting a Physical Shipment to any EU country WILL BE RESPONSIBLE for any VAT and Broker Surcharges charged by the carrier - generally 15-17% of the order value – payable at the time of delivery."

watch out for Newegg Canada. yup it's a .CA site and you pay in CDN... but it's shipped UPS from the states..... only found out after we ordered - thinking it would be a Canadian distribution center. by the time a UPS tracking number was given to us and we could see it coming up from the states it was to late... it's on it's way.

according to Newegg we've paid the tax and it's free shipping. we shall see on that when the package gets here....

This is odd, I have ordered software from the US before and there has been no charge unless it is classed as a "computer game", game being the operative word.
I got caught out ordering an expansion for Everquest, (the game was $19.99 - the tax £25!) but have not had to pay on other types of software.