Quote - I am sorry to hear about anyone having anything less than an enjoyable experience with any facet of DAZ 3D... so let me make that clear.

I cannot guarantee results over things that I have no direct power over. I have shared feedback from this forum with the people that do, however, and there are appropriate eyes on this.

I hope you understand that I cannot simply accept everything said and let it guide my actions without a proper telling with all the facts. Every issue that is brought to me with those details will be looked into. "Looked into" does not mean "solved to your satisfaction", but if its your contention that you were unjustly treated, it should work out that new eyes on the issue will uncover it.

I am willing to look at it with those eyes and I have the blessing of my executive superior to do everything in my power to address the issues brought up in this thread.

Thank you once again, Rand, for your honesty. Unfortunately it is a bit too little, a little too late. Due to my experiences with Daz my trust has been eroded and I doubt this will be ever be sorted out fairly within your company. If that was to happen it would have happened months ago when I first tried to communicate with the staff there. Instead the staff I have dealt with have been rude and immature. I feel sorry for you as you always seem to get the short straw type jobs. However, thank you for responding to me. I just hope that what I have said will prevent others from experiencing the same sort of treatment and that Daz will be successful in its future endeavours with the new CEO.

Quote - I use V4, always have and always will, unless a new, better figure comes that can be used in Poser 7 (and no, I cannot upgrade, because I use both Poser 7 and Vue 6, which supports up to Poser 7 only. So my only choices would be paying around $1400 to get the latest version of both, or making my workflow drastically more complex by adding DS, using obj conversions, etc, which I have no intention of doing). So basically, for people like me, all this means is that each time I browse the DAZ site, I see less and less usable items, which simply means I go there less and less. I can understand some people wanting to try new figures and making clothes for it, but by not making them compatible with V4 it just means it's not usable by me and others.

This is an age-old problem - and not just in the world of 3D either. A lot of this was pointed out to DAZ prior to DS4 "release" IIRC, and the problem is that although it's a COMPLETELY VALID problem, no company can afford to avoid progress perpetually. With progress comes, among other things, incompatability.

That's why I can't play "Lode Runner" on my Windows XP machine - because it relied on Windows 3, and things have moved on since then. We all of us have a choice - to try to keep up, or to settle in at our chosen level.

I can't dissagree with DAZ wanting to move on from Mil4 tech - though I think they could have done so a little more elegantly, with better Poser compatability IMHO. Much about Genesis looks fun, to be honest. Better communication with SM earlier on might have been helpful, and better/more/clearer disclosure from DAZ. I think there's romm for improvements on both sides - DAZ could do more to make Genesis Poser-friendly, and compatible post-posing SubD from Smith Micro needn't only benefit Genesis - I can see how that could be useful for Poser on a wider basis too.

So I don't ask for DAZ to stop improving - but it would be nice if they improved things more evenly, with fewer missteps (like poor documentation, or releases that break features that previously worked).

Quote - Beyond that we are looking into native content solutions for other file formats but this is still not anything I would feel like I can tell you about.

If you can't say much about it, it would be a better idea to not say anything about it at all.

All that does is leave the door wide open for disinformation.

It does seem strange that you came to another site to patch up what started somewhere else. That is where most of the (dis)information came from to begin with.

But that just how I see it. Others my see it differently.

Quote - Honestly all the talk about underlying technology does very little for me. I'm a heavy Poser and Vue user, spending over $100 a month on content, but I use V4, always have and always will, unless a new, better figure comes that can be used in Poser 7 (and no, I cannot upgrade, because I use both Poser 7 and Vue 6, which supports up to Poser 7 only. So my only choices would be paying around $1400 to get the latest version of both, or making my workflow drastically more complex by adding DS, using obj conversions, etc, which I have no intention of doing).

So basically, for people like me, all this means is that each time I browse the DAZ site, I see less and less usable items, which simply means I go there less and less. I can understand some people wanting to try new figures and making clothes for it, but by not making them compatible with V4 it just means it's not usable by me and others. I'd happiless shell out $18 for the new Val3D outfit that came out today, but I can't. And when I see even hairstyles (V5 ponytail) coming out and not supporting V4, that's just crazy, and an underhanded way to force people to change.

So this is basically why I dislike DAZ at the moment, and why I just cannot use their site anymore.

The V5 ponytail uses DS weightmapping and therefore, only works at the moment in DS. So there was no logic in making it fit on V4. I will look into creating a fit.... but im not sure it will be an entirely satisfying user experience to use it

Quote - This is an age-old problem - and not just in the world of 3D either. A lot of this was pointed out to DAZ prior to DS4 "release" IIRC, and the problem is that although it's a COMPLETELY VALID problem, no company can afford to avoid progress perpetually. With progress comes, among other things, incompatability.

That's why I can't play "Lode Runner" on my Windows XP machine - because it relied on Windows 3, and things have moved on since then. We all of us have a choice - to try to keep up, or to settle in at our chosen level.

The problem with that argument is that this happens in companies which have a monopoly, like Microsoft, or who have so much money that they just don't care about pissing off old customers. Several times I've heard vendors say how unprofitable the Poser market is, and how little money they make by doing 3D content, and how small the market is. This is why it makes no sense to split the user base like that. If I used to spend over $100 a month, and now I don't buy anything anymore, and just contract out what I want made, I can't imagine I'm the only one who've decided not to go with the latest tech, and that at the end of the month that's a ton of profit they are losing out on, just because they decided to go their own way.

When V4 appeared, right away there was an easy conversion from V4 back to V3 for clothing compatibility, and both figures worked in all the same programs. So it's certainly possible to progress and not break compatibility.

Quote - The V5 ponytail uses DS weightmapping and therefore, only works at the moment in DS. So there was no logic in making it fit on V4.

What exactly is the issue with exporting any weight-mapped content besides Genesis?  You can export the weightmapping of one figure, why not anything else?  That doesn't make any sense at all.

e: I mean, outside of the obvious business reason

Quote - The V5 ponytail uses DS weightmapping and therefore, only works at the moment in DS. So there was no logic in making it fit on V4. I will look into creating a fit.... but im not sure it will be an entirely satisfying user experience to use it

I don't see a reason why ERC isn't good enough for a ponytail, really. As for a fit, it wouldn't change much for me. I'm certainly not about to pay $25 for a hair piece that "might" somewhat work in the app I use. Certainly as I said, I'm not against people trying out new technology, but having a hairpiece restricted to genesis seems like going out of your way to restrict yourself. We've had ponytails for ages, honestly.

Tough bunch, isn't it Randall? LOL We are a rowdy group ;).

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - Beyond that we are looking into native content solutions for other file formats but this is still not anything I would feel like I can tell you about.

If you can't say much about it, it would be a better idea to not say anything about it at all.

All that does is leave the door wide open for disinformation.

It does seem strange that you came to another site to patch up what started somewhere else. That is where most of the (dis)information came from to begin with.

But that just how I see it. Others my see it differently.

I dont see how saying that we are looking into options for supporting other file formats is an oportunity for disinformation. it is what it is. I dont want to give details that may not pan out or tell you about notions we have had that we might change our minds about.

And for the record, I came here to be a good-natured source of information that you could be reasonably sure was accurate rather than a fair amount of heresay, conjecture and theory that is sometimes mistaken for facts.

Quote - Tough bunch, isn't it Randall? LOL We are a rowdy group ;).

Laurie

Nah... ya'll are luvable

Quote - > Quote - The V5 ponytail uses DS weightmapping and therefore, only works at the moment in DS. So there was no logic in making it fit on V4.

What exactly is the issue with exporting any weight-mapped content besides Genesis?  You can export the weightmapping of one figure, why not anything else?  That doesn't make any sense at all.

e: I mean, outside of the obvious business reason

I said i would look into it :D

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Beyond that we are looking into native content solutions for other file formats but this is still not anything I would feel like I can tell you about.

If you can't say much about it, it would be a better idea to not say anything about it at all.

All that does is leave the door wide open for disinformation.

It does seem strange that you came to another site to patch up what started somewhere else. That is where most of the (dis)information came from to begin with.

But that just how I see it. Others my see it differently.

I dont see how saying that we are looking into options for supporting other file formats is an oportunity for disinformation. it is what it is. I dont want to give details that may not pan out or tell you about notions we have had that we might change our minds about.

And for the record, I came here to be a good-natured source of information that you could be reasonably sure was accurate rather than a fair amount of heresay, conjecture and theory that is sometimes mistaken for facts.

This post told me everything I needed to know, Randall, about V5's functionality in Poser. You were clear and concise and full of incredibly useful key information, for which I am grateful.

Thanks again.

Quote - What exactly is the issue with exporting any weight-mapped content besides Genesis?  You can export the weightmapping of one figure, why not anything else?  That doesn't make any sense at all. e: I mean, outside of the obvious business reason

 I said i would look into it :D

Well I saw you say you'd look into creating a fit for V4 for that specific item, I'm asking about the general problem of not being able to get anything else converted to Poser format.  If you can get Genesis itself out, I can't imagine a technical reason why any other figure would be different.  I wouldn't expect any fitting morphs dynamically created by Autofit to be written out, but other than that ...  what's the problem?

Quote - > Quote - What exactly is the issue with exporting any weight-mapped content besides Genesis?  You can export the weightmapping of one figure, why not anything else?  That doesn't make any sense at all. e: I mean, outside of the obvious business reason

 I said i would look into it :D

Well I saw you say you'd look into creating a fit for V4 for that specific item, I'm asking about the general problem of not being able to get anything else converted to Poser format.  If you can get Genesis itself out, I can't imagine a technical reason why any other figure would be different.  I wouldn't expect any fitting morphs dynamically created by Autofit to be written out, but other than that ...  what's the problem?

The fact is that we have made some advances that will improve the experience quite a bit, but they will not be useable until SM issues the upcoming service release that will enable them. 

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Beyond that we are looking into native content solutions for other file formats but this is still not anything I would feel like I can tell you about.

If you can't say much about it, it would be a better idea to not say anything about it at all.

All that does is leave the door wide open for disinformation.

It does seem strange that you came to another site to patch up what started somewhere else. That is where most of the (dis)information came from to begin with.

But that just how I see it. Others my see it differently.

I dont see how saying that we are looking into options for supporting other file formats is an oportunity for disinformation. it is what it is. I dont want to give details that may not pan out or tell you about notions we have had that we might change our minds about.

And for the record, I came here to be a good-natured source of information that you could be reasonably sure was accurate rather than a fair amount of heresay, conjecture and theory that is sometimes mistaken for facts.

This post told me everything I needed to know, Randall, about V5's functionality in Poser. You were clear and concise and full of incredibly useful key information, for which I am grateful.

Thanks again.

hmmm... there was no V5 info in there. 

As I posted just above, we have been steadily moving forward on compatibility.  There have been some interesting developments in the Poser community on our behalf with python scripting that could improve the Genesis experience in Poser as well.

If I could say one thing and have it be the only thing you would hear it would be... Give us some time to work on this. Its not easy and we are making it happen as fast as it can happen. Its our goal to have Genesis completely native in Poser so that we can all go back to being a happy community of artists again. 

We are posting all information about the CR2 export and our progress as it beomes available. You may have to wait a bit... but I hope that it will be worth it in the end.

As it stands, Genesis will open in Poser and as demonstrated by many renders on our site, you can get nice results with it. Its not optimal but hopefully that will come in time.

Quote - As it stands, Genesis will open in Poser and as demonstrated by many renders on our site, you can get nice results with it. Its not optimal but hopefully that will come in time.

Thanks for that, Randall... and for all your hard work on this.

Quote - Better communication with SM earlier on might have been helpful...

We actually reached out to tell SM what our plans were a year before DS4 came out. We knew we wanted to change the game and thought they might want to be aware of our plans.

Well, installers... I suppose I understand the reasoning behind them (you feel that this is the primary way one "reads" the installation agreement, plus they are easier for new folks).  My only gripe with them is that the newer ones are less click friendly.  What I mean by that is the old one you could simply click the "line" the checkbox was on it and it would toggle check/unchecked.  These newer ones require more precision.  Maybe it's a silly gripe but I liked the older ones, given the fact they are required for installing DAZ content.

On Genesis, I'm not sure there can be any outcome other than the options we have on hand.  DAZ appears to have positioned itself that in order to use Genesis at all, one must utilize DAZ Studio.  Period.  Why not offer a Poser-only version or an enhanced V4 or some type of bone for Poser users or more bluntly those that have a stronger preference for working in Poser?  I can understand that there may be fears of techonology "containment" where there is less control for DAZ Productions on the Genesis/V4 Enhanced figure and the fact that it may (likely would) create a competing market for Genesis in itself.  Though if your fingers are in both pies, would it really matter.

probably more in terms of a V4.5 would be neat to see for poser, that retains the higher res mesh, utilizes moving joint centers for old/young/monster sculpts and so forth.

Those are my thoughts and it's obvious that I am not in the meeting room during DAZ and SM talks, so you guys may have already sorted out the solutions.  The worst case scenario is that Poser enthusiasts move onto new figures, stick with V4 or play more in DS or whatnot - or in a nutshell, nothing changes.

Anyways, I'm being honest and open with no hostility intended and I hope everything I wrote makes sense. :)  Thanks for opening this dialog Rand and I hope that it stays civil.

Footnote:  I wrote this from the get-go without reading the entire thread.  I want to leave my questions/observations "as is" but I have read the whole thing at this point. :)

DAZ_Rand,

the problem with you saying Daz is looking at a,b or c is that we have had this in the past and a,b or c never eventuates.

Studio 4 does not run on my system and noone at Daz has any suggestions about why. There seems to be no detailed user manual, and that has been the case for several versions of studio. I have not found a specification of the system that Daz studio 4 requires.  I have a number of custom CR2 files that Daz 3 will not load.  So at the end of myday Daz studio is not an option for my paid work.

Going back a few years Daz put up pictures of creature morphs for M4 that I am as yet unaware were ever released.

Its this sort of information from Daz that makes me uncomfortable when dealing with my clients about future projects.

I bought the Daz millenium horse for one job and had to scrap it because of the horrible distorted legs.  Still no fix that I am aware of. 

Now with genesis its buy M4 and V4 and freak again to get decent bending but only in Daz studio. Why not a simple weight map for the V4, M4 and freak that I have paid for.?

Daz dropped artzone so I may lose what I had posted there, no warning that I saw.

I can no longer get a reset on my downloads because I have to do them from another machine , and Daz now will only reset 1 item and tells me it may take a few days to get that done. Then I have two days I believe to grab it before it expires again.  In fact the reset happened the same day and I would have missed the download. 

Note: only dialup is available in my area and download speeds are typically 2.1 kbps

or about 2 mb in an hour. To download anything I need to travel 10 miles to another site with dsl.  It will take me another 3 months by my reckoning to recover about 6 files that I need reset.  I was sure I used to be able to ask for multiple resets in the past. I seem to have missed a Daz announcement of this change as well.

have a nice day.

Randal.. did you get a chance to check out Antonia~WM while you are here.. pretty badass, no?

Quote - The fact is that we have made some advances that will improve the experience quite a bit, but they will not be useable until SM issues the upcoming service release that will enable them.  

Like what?  I don't see why you're being cagey about this, considering your stated goal was to dispel misinformation.  Your answer doesn't make any sense.  How could you get Genesis converted in the first place but have issues with any other rig?

Ok, hopefully I'm not reiterating anything for the umteenth time - while I've been a member of both the Renderosity and Daz forums for several years I normally don't bother commenting since I have little time to.  What follows are a few points that have been floating around in my head as I've done my best to go though all of the responces over the last 6 pages.

In regards to the Genesis issue -

In a way it feels that Poser users at Daz are being shuffled asside like those of us who liked Hexagon (ok maybe this is an exaduration). Why can't a version for both platfroms be made? Just code one for Poser and one for DS Genesis - VOILA - no problems; users for both are happy. Yes this is more work BUT it doubles availabity and one would think profits. It can't be that hard since all content at its core is simply a mesh designed in 3D Max, ZBrush, Hex, etc.

The other thing is possibly we've become too dependant on Daz's characters. Maybe its time for Victoria to pass the torch? Recently there have been a number of V4 morph sets made available here in the Renderosity store that address the joint issues brought up in the past. It could be V5 is essentally redundant for anyone not using DS.

We seem to be comming to a point where its likely we'll eventually split into two camps like PC vs MAC - both having their ardent followers and defenders. To be honest this may have been eventual with the introduction of Daz Studio V1.

While Daz isn't obligated to support the Poser platform I do dislike the apparent removal of choice (both in content format and the installer issue if I understand it). As a person who has recently renewed his DAZ membership I'm a bit ticked off about this. I have to wonder if I'm going to have to just use my monthly credit for the sake of using it or getting content that I really want.  If Renderosity wants to gain all the members Daz may loose over the chainges they're making, a blanket discount, credit system, and/or maybe exclusive freebies would sway my choice when my renewal comes up.

On the differences between PS & DS -

Personally - Poser all the way for the interface and capabilities. The drawback is that it has never really handled cross character compatability very well.  I have yet to make wardrobe wizzard work as advertised without a lot of tweeking.

Genesis is what I've always wanted to see in Poser - except I'd want it to be backwards compatable with all the content I already have (ok maybe asking too much but a guy can wish can't he?).  The problem I have with DS is that the interface is poorly planned. Its like the programmers did it this way so they would look as different as possable from Poser which has resulted in something that is NOT intuitive and feels @$$ backwards. I mean really - no manual and consistant changes without documentation (at least the last time I checked) is not a way to instill confidence in a product.

Converters or Plugin? To be honest I have yet to see a converter work as easily as advertised. To be worth it Daz and SmithMicro really need to work together on a seamless plugin (if this can even be done in the first place).

I still think seperate Daz and Poser fomats would be the simplest way to go. Daz may not see this as feasable - I don't see why not since some of the content designers here are starting to do this now.

Well that's my ramble. If it come to the point where there is a split - so be it - its been fun Daz.

Hi,

Just providing some feedback about my own situation.  

During the early days of Daz Studio, there were a lot of updates, since it was in beta for some years.

I couldn't keep up with all the updating for in-house plugins and, worse, I purchased third-party plug-ins which didn't keep pace with version updates.

I found I couldn't manage and administer Poser content runtime installing AND Daz Studio updating (yes, some of us have real lives out there) over time.

In fact, I had also purchased DS3 Advanced and some plugins (cloth?). 

But I had to choose, and since I already invested more real money in Poser than DS at the time (2005-2008), I had to go with what made sense to me.

This isn't the only 3D art product I dropped.  I also tried Carrara and Bryce, but couldn't keep up with version updates and content administration.  

Hexagon:- now I waited a long time for that to be updated, and yes, recently it did get an update.  It is still useful to me.

Stand-alone third-party product FaceShop Pro:- I gave up updating versions as well.  Just didn't think it worked for me.

I still purchase Poser-compatible products from the DAZ3D store, but honestly, cannot keep up with the Victoria 5-Genesis and DS4+ updating and content management.  

And giving credit to Poser content artists, well, some of them them do a really good job.  Good quality freebies and commercial items still exist for the Poser software, so I am able to keep my content refreshed, from time to time.

Right now, learning DS4 is no different to me than learning iClone or Quidam, honestly.  It just means I need to spend time and some more money, but alas, I already have Poser and not much time and only some money !

I am a DAZ fanboi, and I hate the installers.  The following is as suggestion I wrote, but never posted at DAZ forums, sometime ago.  Since things have change abit from the time it was writen I had to make a few quick edits.  I hope I haven't messed up its original intentions.

    Since this thread has brought up the installers I thought I might post an idea I've had for some time for improving them.  Make a custom zip utility that would still require the customer to agree to the EULA, which it would be embedded in the zip so it could be easy changed for different products, before proceeding.  Once pass the license part it could ran in two modes, Wizard and Advance.  In Advance it would work like any other zip utility so the customer would need to know what they are doing.  Wizard mode would be for newbies, just like the EULA would be embedded into the zip instruction and help files would be embedded too.  These files would guide the user through the install process.  The instruction file would probably be a simple script command file to instruct the program where to place the files based on an analysis of the user's sytem.  The help file would contain helpful tips or warnings that are presented to the user as the script file is executed.  Preferably the script commands needs to be in a simple form and not like programming.  You may now tell me why this won't work or is a terrible idea.

Quote - > Quote - I'd say a couple of things:

1.  Oh, you noticed we were missing?  Way too little, way too late.

2.  You might want to wave the white flag without coming in here and labeling people "well meaning" liars.

 

I wouldn't say you are "missing" we still enjoy a very good level of business and it can't be all from people who only use DS.

I didn't call anyone a liar. But honestly thinking you know an answer does not actually mean you know the factual answer. There are a few DAZ friendly faces here that try their best to help out.  But they do not have all the inside knowledge and answers that a true employee like myself will have. That's all I meant.

So the head of DAZ marketing came here to be a "good-natured source of information"  If it wasn't affecting DAZ's bottom line, you wouldn't be here and we both know it.

From my viewpoint, Genesis is causing everyone to re-look their relationship with DAZ.  I know I have.  And my buying habits have adjusted accordingly.  And I am sure Rosity & RNDA have sent DAZ thank-you notes.

My reevaluation includes the company's attitude toward me, the customer.  Your company is from my perspective, very contemptuous of it's customers.  You can be that way if you are Apple.  DAZ isn't Apple.  You have no reality distortion field.

I am buying less & less at DAZ & I want you to understand why, and possibly take it to a staff meeting.  Probably not, because god knows, DAZ doesn't make mistakes.

It isn't Genesis.  For me, that was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

When I talk about being contemptuous of your customers, let me show you a pattern of conduct......

1a.  "We are working on the installers..."  Please.  Just stop.  DAZ has been telling customers that since at least 2005 that I am PERSONALLY aware of.  We both know that the company has no intention of changing the installer philosophy or fixing the old installers, so just stop already.  That is pretty contemptuous.

1b.  When someone from customer support tells me to buy a PC when I gripe about OS9 installers doesn't build any good will.  Just sayin'.....

If you use installers, why, oh why, can't you use one that FOLLOWS THE OS USER GUIDELINES that Apple & MicroSoft set.

2a.  DS4 - Why do you ask for feedback if you don't use any of it. Your beta folks told you they hated the new UI.  Did you make any changes? Nope. 

That is pretty contempuous.

2b.  Documentation.  How is that Carrera 8 manual coming? Or the Bryce manual, Or the Hexagon manual.  Do you see a pattern here?  My reason for ignoring DS4 isn't the crappy UI, that is an added bonus; it is the fact that my time is valuable, and I don't have time to waste figuring things out through trial and error. 

No documentation = contempt.

2c.  Software as perpetual beta.  Go buy a copy of "The Mythical Man Month"  Make your software manager read it.  Adjust software development accordingly.  Avoid "cool".  Cool is bad.  Your programmers aren't that good.  Really, they aren't.  Reliablity is good.  DAZ should try it sometime. 

Releasing a half-finished product = contempt.

As a side-note, nothing screams amature quite like releasing software without documentation.  Kinda difficult to incorporate it into work-flows without it.

Moving on to content.....

3a.  Making us wait 18 months or so for M4 after the release of V4.  Contempt.

3b.  After releasing M4 - No clothing content, but one of the first items was a tutu.  Really?  A tutu.  That wasn't funny.  That was giving the users the finger.  Someone should have been fired over that.

4.  Ask some old-timers about the swine-flu sales pitch.  Another idea that should have gotten someone fired.  Again, contempt.

Now for a quick dash over to the forums.....

5a.  Some of the biggest S&*$ stirrers on the DAZ forums have userids start with DAZ.  Sorry, but it had to be said.  They will start a thread and do a hit & run.

A suggestion.  Don't let anyone with a DAZ id respond to a heated thread without running it through a supervisor first.  A little sanity check wouldn't hurt.

5b.  Grow a thicker skin.  DAZ is supposed to be a business.  Whining about "negativity" makes DAZ sound like an emo teeanager that has been told to take out the trash.  Brick-bats come with the territory, & if DAZ can't handle it, perhaps the forums aren't a place for anyone with a DAZ at the beginning of their userid.  Notice that the only SM person that haunts forums is your counterpart - Mr. Cooper.  Everyone else stays far, far away.  Probably because they are busy making sure that their product is interoperatable with other 3d products & has documentation.  Just sayin'......

5c.  Fanbois - Threat or menance?

Then there are your fanbois.  I would highly recommend that you get your PAs some customer service training.  As a minimum, "How to win friends & influcence enemies".  You have PAs whose attitudes on the forums cost you sales.  If they sell on DAZ, they reflect you.  Whether you like it or not.  So talk to them already.

Now lets look at the website.  AAGGGHH!!! MY EYES!!!!!

6a.    If your customers tell you it causes migraines, YOU MIGHT WANT TO LOOK INTO IT. Telling paying customers "too bad" doesn't get them to come by more often.  Again, what was that word again?  Oh yeah, contempt.

6b.  Artzone.  Enuff said.....

And now a cautionary tale....

Once apon a time there was an gaming company called GDW.  In addition to many fine wargames, they made a Role Playing Game called TRAVELLER.  It was very, very successful. 

In the fullness of time, the people that worked at GDW moved away from the Traveller game system to a different gaming system that was based off another RPG they sold, Twilight 2000.  They decided that it would be easier for GDW to convert the Twilight 2000 rules set to Traveller.  That way, they would only have to maintain one set of rules.  The ungrateful customers would have none of it however.  They felt that if they wanted to play Twilight 2000, they would.  Well, GDW ignored their customers and released Traveller: The New Era.  They "vaulted" the old product & henceforth there would only be TNE.  Shortly thereafter GDW went out of business because, quite frankly TNE was a piece of crap (I was there - It is always bad when the product was referred to as the "New Error" - It is still called that by the way.)

20 years on people still play Classic Traveller, MegaTraveller, and a host of other game systems.  The TNE version.  Still dead.

Just sayin'.....

I only have these suggestions:

1. Keep a versioning system for your products. Sometimes they are updated and there is no way of knowing if the current available version is newer than the one downloaded just a few weeks earlier. This may be important if a serious bug has been fixed. If a versioning system is too complicated then at least show the date of the last update for each product. I know that the cart is sometimes updated with a new product update but it is not always done for all the updated items.

1. The ability to easily create custom dynamic clothing in DAZ Sutdio is needed.

1. DAZ Studio needs full documentation. For a paid application, this is really lacking. Forum posts are not a replacement for a proper manual and the docs site is still mostly a placeholder. 

Thanks for your attention,

FlyerX

quoted from Rob Whisenant:

Quote - Work on the Cr2 Exporter continues. The next iteration includes fixes for a few bugs and exposes the exporter to the DAZ Script API, similarly to the OBJ exporter. This means that a script can be written to improve the process by dramatically reducing the number of manual steps and consolidating any options that are still needed into a single dialog. Writing that script is the next thing in the queue [for the exporter]. Following that will be the documentation, as it is likely to change significantly. Said script will not be in the next build... it will have to follow. No, I don't have a date for when the public will get the next build or the script. There is a [private] testing cycle that is scheduled to start tomorrow. Feedback from that batch of tests will influence the release schedule.

See, that's a good answer regarding improving the conversion process.  Not optimal (it isn't standalone and requires D|S to be done) but it's a big step forward.

How about importing content that has been rigged and weighted in Poser, to DAZ|Studio?  I haven't heard any talk about that at all, I'm sure a lot of people would benefit from it.

Quote - DAZ_Rand,

the problem with you saying Daz is looking at a,b or c is that we have had this in the past and a,b or c never eventuates.

---Its a new day and we are under new management

Studio 4 does not run on my system and noone at Daz has any suggestions about why.

---Did you file a detailed bug report or call customer service? If so then I would advise you to try again. The team is busy but they want to help. I cant help without more information in any case.

There seems to be no detailed user manual, and that has been the case for several versions of studio.

---We freely admit that this is a big problem. We have stopped work on a lot of stuff and retasked to getting education and documentation imperatives finished before going further on some other things. You can find new documentation efforts at http://docs.daz3d.com  As of now they are incomplete, but we are adding more to them every day.

I have not found a specification of the system that Daz studio 4 requires. 

---http://www.daz3d.com/i/products/daz_studio/tech_specs?

I have a number of custom CR2 files that Daz 3 will not load.  So at the end of my day Daz studio is not an option for my paid work.

---I cant comment on your custom files. I wouldn't have the first idea about what would keep them from opening. Have you tried in DS4?

Going back a few years Daz put up pictures of creature morphs for M4 that I am as yet unaware were ever released.

---The Creature Creator Morphs? If so, they were... Long ago. I will not post the link but you can find them if you look.

 

Its this sort of information from Daz that makes me uncomfortable when dealing with my clients about future projects.

---Nobody can tell you what programs to use, you have to work where you are comfortable. I can tell you that a great many people can and do work every day in DS here are some professional user stories. http://www.daz3d.com/i/3d/new_user?home_btn=start

I bought the Daz millenium horse for one job and had to scrap it because of the horrible distorted legs.  Still no fix that I am aware of. 

---I would be happy to look at an example. I have seen quite a few GORGEOUS renders of the Millenium Horse and I cant imagine what you mean without a reference.

Now with genesis its buy M4 and V4 and freak again to get decent bending but only in Daz studio. Why not a simple weight map for the V4, M4 and freak that I have paid for.?

---Because you aren't buying them again, you are buying the ability to mix those classic shapes infinitely with Genesis. If you do not think that is compelling, you have never seen a Freak/Child/Gorilla/Lizard

Daz dropped artzone so I may lose what I had posted there, no warning that I saw.

---The info is still on the servers, what are you missing? Art Zone is a failed concept and we want to create a more functional and effective Social Space for our customers and visitors. We are currently laying the infrastructure for it and Developing ideas for how it will work.

I can no longer get a reset on my downloads because I have to do them from another machine...

---You should be able to reset your Downloads on any machine. Its Browser based.

...and Daz now will only reset 1 item and tells me it may take a few days to get that done.

Then I have two days I believe to grab it before it expires again.  In fact the reset happened the same day and I would have missed the download. 

Note: only dialup is available in my area and download speeds are typically 2.1 kbps or about 2 mb in an hour. To download anything I need to travel 10 miles to another site with dsl.  It will take me another 3 months by my reckoning to recover about 6 files that I need reset.  I was sure I used to be able to ask for multiple resets in the past. I seem to have missed a Daz announcement of this change as well.

---This is inaccurate, you can reset everything in your account and it will reset within minutes. After they have been reset, download files in 'Available Downloads' last for five days or four download attempts, whichever comes first.You are allowed 3 resets per product per 3 month period.

have a nice day.

---If you continue to have trouble, I will personally help you with the resetting of your products and I will do my best to make sure that you get them when you need them.

 

Quote - Randal.. did you get a chance to check out Antonia~WM while you are here.. pretty badass, no?

As a matter of personal taste, I do not care for her looks, and though she beds quite well, I do not necessarily agree that she bends better than Genesis... but I really admire the grass roots community effort to get her made.  That is very admirable, unprecedented and a feat to be commended.

Quote - 4.  Ask some old-timers about the swine-flu sales pitch.  Another idea that should have gotten someone fired.  Again, contempt.

OMG...I forgot about that :P

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - The fact is that we have made some advances that will improve the experience quite a bit, but they will not be useable until SM issues the upcoming service release that will enable them.  

Like what?  I don't see why you're being cagey about this, considering your stated goal was to dispel misinformation.  Your answer doesn't make any sense.  How could you get Genesis converted in the first place but have issues with any other rig?

Rob told me what they were, but I have forgotten enough of what he said that I do not want to repeat it for fear of mis-stating it.

Has anyone mentioned product promo images yet?

There has been an increasing lack of Poser renders in in product promos at DAZ, they are either limited or absent. Now, I've not had too much of a beef with that, because I've figured that DAZ want to sell us Studio, so limiting the promos to Studio renders makes some business sense. That may be inconvenient for me (and has delayed some of my purchases until I've seen the products in Poser galleries) but it is fair enough. No beef.

BUT if you want to say that you value Poser users, then show it. If you want us to shop from you as Poser users, rather than potential Studio users, then let us see what you're selling in the software we mean to use in. Otherwise, we feel like a side market - which is fine but not what you're saying here.

Of course, many of your PAs do make and include Poser renders and I promise you, that really does help their sales from me. But take a look at the DAZ originals. Take a look at the recent crop of PC products - some aren't marked as Studio renders but they aren't marked as Poser either and they look just like the Studio ones, so I assume they are just that. What do they look like in Poser?

"Your programmers aren't that good.  Really, they aren't.  Reliablity is good.  DAZ should try it sometime. "

And you guys wonder why there's hostility in the forums? Sorry Studio doesn't work for you. It works fine for me, it's reliable, and this statement is just a baseless attack.

"2a.  DS4 - Why do you ask for feedback if you don't use any of it. Your beta folks told you they hated the new UI.  Did you make any changes? Nope."

Yes, many testers pushed hard for a 'classic' style interface and the result was the Darkside interface. Saying DAZ ignored it is a complete lie.

"Now lets look at the website.  AAGGGHH!!! MY EYES!!!!!

6a.    If your customers tell you it causes migraines, YOU MIGHT WANT TO LOOK INTO IT. Telling paying customers "too bad" doesn't get them to come by more often.  Again, what was that word again?  Oh yeah, contempt."

Um, not agreeing with someone doesn't mean they automatically have contempt for you.

SnowS

...for me the decision was simple. It wasn't Daz Forum politics.

It was the fact that several of the key system requirements of Daz Studio4 have basically rendered (npi) my machine obsolete.

The last version of the application (3.1) that does work (to a point) is no longer supported even though it still has serious issues with memory management, which will never be addressed.

That is where Daz lost me.

I cannot afford a new 64 bit machine to run Studio4 Advanced.

Even if my current system could support the S4A, running the 32 bit version would be a lesson extreme frustration due to the severe memory allocation limitations imposed which in turn usually result in the application crashing during the render process because of insufficient memory.

I like to do 3D CG to relax, not get angry or uptight, as it is the only way with my advancing RA (rheumatoid arthritis) that I can stay in touch with my lifelong creative outlet.

Hence, I had two choices, give it up altogether, or find something else that works.

To that end I have been working with the 32 bit version of Poser Pro 2010 which I discovered is much more stable on (and "gentler" to) my trusty 5 year old notebook.

My one main concern about Daz is that I feel they are trying too hard to move up the "3D CG industry ladder" too fast and so doing they are in danger of damaging their reputation and alienating their current customer base. While other 3D apps are fairly stable at release time, with Daz, everything seems to be in a continual state of beta development. However, on the other hand they require brokered content to be "bulletproof" before it will be accepted in the store.

Now this may be fine with regards to the free version of the Studio application. However, when it comes down to a "finished" commercial product (like Carrara or StudioAdvanced which customers are paying for) suffering from chronic instability which requires frequent updates and patches, it makes one begin to wonder "why am I shelling out my hard earned money for this?"

This has been an increasing concern among community members over the last couple years. The recent issues with the website and store only reinforce this. Were a similar situation to occur in any other company, it would have resulted in negative PR, the erosion of customer confidence, and subsequent sacking of the individuals responsible.

To All and DAZ_Rand,

I usually don't post and especially in such a thread that seems pretty heated, but I think everyone needs to look at some other issues. And I hope I dont upset anyone as that is not my intent.

DAZ_Rand was considerate enough to come to these forums to open a line of communication, which is appreciated. People need to remember that DAZ is a business and they wanted to make a product that was scalable, more functional, and addressed alot of the things that earlier versions had issues with such as joint bending, scalability, exporting etc...they are not responsible for SmithMicro's products or managing SmithMicro's coders. They are doing what they feel is best for their product line in order to be able to do things now and in the future while still making a profit. Could they have coded their product around another company's product..sure, but why should they when they have their own product from which they can control much more in the way so that their products function, scale, and are compatible...this is just good business practice.

Now I will say that on the other hand leaving out poser customers from part of their new product line of v5 whom they have supported in the past with v3 v4 etc...isn't a good feeling for those that like SmithMicro's Poser. They could in theory be loosing alot of money, former customers and future customers as well not only for v5 but for all the related products such as pose packs, morph packs, clothing packs etc...but at some point they had to make a choice. Sometimes a business only has so much money and time to do so much and meet a deadline. But I do agree with people that not supporting a poser compatible version from the start of v5 is disappointing, and they have lost some of the dollars they could have made even from myself. I also use Zbrush, Lightwave 3D, 3DSmax, Photoshop 3d paint etc...but as in all things you get what you pay for and Poser and Daz are pretty cheap/afforable cost-wise compared to other 3d software and especially compared to Autodesk gouging prices and subscription policies, but of course they do lack in quite a few things.

I understand alot of people's issues and I do not discount any of them, but even with all the issues, I want to see more exporting options....real collada support...better Zbrush compatibility...Lightwave exporting (even lightwave has had weightmaps for a long time now, I was actually surprised Poser and Daz didn't have this for a long time). What about UV mapping/pelting from within Poser and Daz itself....think Zbrush and how you can paint UV maps. What about better hair creation/options/etc....what about rendering like Fprime...etc...

I hope I didnt upset anyone that was not my intent...I just think people tend to forget that some decisions are made because of budget, deadline, future concerns about scalability, exportability, and of course business being profitable...SmithMicro and Daz are two different companies. Sometimes you wait forever for things that seem to never come about and it is fustrating, but use that fustration and improve your skills that will have a much better outcome.

Just my 2 cents. Thanks all.

Quote - Ok, hopefully I'm not reiterating anything for the umteenth time - while I've been a member of both the Renderosity and Daz forums for several years I normally don't bother commenting since I have little time to.  What follows are a few points that have been floating around in my head as I've done my best to go though all of the responces over the last 6 pages.

In regards to the Genesis issue -

In a way it feels that Poser users at Daz are being shuffled asside like those of us who liked Hexagon (ok maybe this is an exaduration). Why can't a version for both platfroms be made? Just code one for Poser and one for DS Genesis - VOILA - no problems; users for both are happy. Yes this is more work BUT it doubles availabity and one would think profits. It can't be that hard since all content at its core is simply a mesh designed in 3D Max, ZBrush, Hex, etc.

---Its very easy to think that it would be that easy. Genesis took over two years to create, and though its no longer unknown ground, it would take us literally 6-8 months or more to create a totally new weightmapped figure to work natively Poser to our quality standards.... and that is just a base. It would have no clothing or morphs... and then what? We do not have the staff to support two production pipelines. We really are just a small business. It may surprise you to know that there are only 6 people making our content. If we can take Genesis into that environment... then it will have all the power and cross figure compatibility that Platform commands and that would be special.

The other thing is possibly we've become too dependant on Daz's characters. Maybe its time for Victoria to pass the torch? Recently there have been a number of V4 morph sets made available here in the Renderosity store that address the joint issues brought up in the past. It could be V5 is essentally redundant for anyone not using DS.

---I belive that we continue to make compelling content and I hope we will have the chance to overcome this compatibility issue so we can move ahead.

We seem to be comming to a point where its likely we'll eventually split into two camps like PC vs MAC - both having their ardent followers and defenders. To be honest this may have been eventual with the introduction of Daz Studio V1.

---We can get along if we decide to. I really dont know why people think there is a feud. It is my contention that this was caused entirely by folks being defensive of what their personal preferences for art creation are. that is a silly basis for a form of argument (nice twist on Holy Grail if I dare say so).

While Daz isn't obligated to support the Poser platform I do dislike the apparent removal of choice (both in content format and the installer issue if I understand it). As a person who has recently renewed his DAZ membership I'm a bit ticked off about this. I have to wonder if I'm going to have to just use my monthly credit for the sake of using it or getting content that I really want.  If Renderosity wants to gain all the members Daz may loose over the chainges they're making, a blanket discount, credit system, and/or maybe exclusive freebies would sway my choice when my renewal comes up.

On the differences between PS & DS -

Personally - Poser all the way for the interface and capabilities. The drawback is that it has never really handled cross character compatability very well.  I have yet to make wardrobe wizzard work as advertised without a lot of tweeking.

---You see, I was the other way. I didnt care for the Poser interface and that is why i started using Studio all those years ago. Everyone has their own preferences though.  I once met a man who didnt like Birthday Cake... OUTRAGEOUS!

Genesis is what I've always wanted to see in Poser - except I'd want it to be backwards compatable with all the content I already have (ok maybe asking too much but a guy can wish can't he?). 

---Genesis is backward compatible... that is one of the main selling points of it. Right now it is very compatible with Gen 4 and we are adding Gen 3 support after the first of the year. Genesis can wear clothing and textures you have owned for ages that look terrible on the original content... it now can look amazing on the Genesis morph of your choice. You can also use female and male only items on any gender you choose and every shape suddenly has a big wardrobe, even the kids and trolls can wear it all.

The problem I have with DS is that the interface is poorly planned. Its like the programmers did it this way so they would look as different as possable from Poser which has resulted in something that is NOT intuitive and feels @$$ backwards. I mean really - no manual and consistant changes without documentation (at least the last time I checked) is not a way to instill confidence in a product.

---With all due respect, it was not poorly planned. It was meticulously planned... by good people who knew that if they worked hard, they could make studio more elegant and easier to use.

The fact is that nothing you are used to using can change to any great degree and remain intuitive to you because you have preset notions of how it should work. The true test of how intuitive anything is is how well a neophyte can use it. In this area there are still hurdles we would like to overcome, but DS4 is undoubtably eaiser for new users... and we have had many users who, after working in DS4 for long enough to get used to it, ended up enjoying it more than they thought they might. It may not be immediately obvious if you have only seen a few screenshots or casually played around, but there are a several Interface options available, not to mention customizable settings, moveable widgits, changeable colors, dockable tabs and more. We cant and wouldnt make it look like Poser but honestly it really is not a bad interface. its just different.

Converters or Plugin? To be honest I have yet to see a converter work as easily as advertised. To be worth it Daz and SmithMicro really need to work together on a seamless plugin (if this can even be done in the first place).

---DAZ 3D and SM ARE working on it and have been for some time. its just honestly not an easy task.

I still think seperate Daz and Poser fomats would be the simplest way to go. Daz may not see this as feasable - I don't see why not since some of the content designers here are starting to do this now.

---As I said before, it really isnt feasable for us and even if we did try to make something, it would be hard to maintain support for two separate lines and it would take a long time to get to a release. We feel the best path forward is to keep working on Genesis compatibility and we hope we can talk you into being supportive and patient while we work

Well that's my ramble. If it come to the point where there is a split - so be it - its been fun Daz.

Quote - Yes, many testers pushed hard for a 'classic' style interface and the result was the Darkside interface. Saying DAZ ignored it is a complete lie.

 

However, it is Advanced version (or higher) only, so it's not an option in standard DS.  So to get away from "Skittles" colors (sorry it's what they look like) you would immediately have to upgrade.  So that makes it conditionally true.

It would be nice to have included the style options originally available in DS 3 at the very least.  It feels like a step down visually in comparison (depending if you like the vibrant colors or not).

Or better yet... Rand, relay the idea of allowing the Darkstyle and other skins to be purchaseable separately at a reasonable cost.  I'd be prone to go for that.

"Or better yet... Rand, relay the idea of allowing the Darkstyle and other skins to be purchaseable separately at a reasonable cost.  I'd be prone to go for that."

I have recently been pushing for that (or for it to be free and included with DS4 Free) and trying to get it heard by the right people over there, so I'm glad to hear you'd also support it.

SnowS, I'd also love the idea of some kind of SkinStudio (Windowblinds) app too for skin development.  It would really be a glorified asset manager (png images or whatnot) and compiler (if required).

But it could potentially open another market for vendors and freebie makers who might like to skin the GUI.

I'd like to see the same for Poser too, you can't get to all the assets but can get at most of them.  * Nod at MystiLaraPrincess *

I'm a pretty big one on customization in general.  OT, I've been doing a lot of desktop customization lately in my free time.  You wouldn't recognize my OS as Windows for the most part and I think it's pretty slick how I've set things up (combination of windowblinds, nexus dock, some xWidgets and keeping an eye on the resources required to pull off the changes).

Quote - I am a DAZ fanboi, and I hate the installers.  The following is as suggestion I wrote, but never posted at DAZ forums, sometime ago.  Since things have change abit from the time it was writen I had to make a few quick edits.  I hope I haven't messed up its original intentions.

    Since this thread has brought up the installers I thought I might post an idea I've had for some time for improving them.  Make a custom zip utility that would still require the customer to agree to the EULA, which it would be embedded in the zip so it could be easy changed for different products, before proceeding.  Once pass the license part it could ran in two modes, Wizard and Advance.  In Advance it would work like any other zip utility so the customer would need to know what they are doing.  Wizard mode would be for newbies, just like the EULA would be embedded into the zip instruction and help files would be embedded too.  These files would guide the user through the install process.  The instruction file would probably be a simple script command file to instruct the program where to place the files based on an analysis of the user's sytem.  The help file would contain helpful tips or warnings that are presented to the user as the script file is executed.  Preferably the script commands needs to be in a simple form and not like programming.  You may now tell me why this won't work or is a terrible idea.

Massive lists of purchased content, mutliple downloads, multiple installers, uncertain updates, uhgghhh.

I have thousands of dollars worth of content from Rendo, DAZ and many dead outlets. A full terrabyte of installers. I know the horror of the DL and install. Its really no better with zip files... well maybe a little better if you could drop them all at once and batch them... but you cant because zip creators are no more consistent than installer creators.

What we want to do is implement something you wont have to think about. It will know if there is an update and do it. It will auto install where it needs to go or, theoretically wherever you have told it to put things.

If you have or have seen an iphone, ipad or ipod and have used the app store, you cant really tell me that the way its implemented isnt elegant. you click, it works. you know when its been updated and can choose or not choose to install. but its painless.

We have not even finished fleshing out potential ideas yet, so its a bit premature to get into this too heavilly, but ill throw a couple of my own ideas out there... what if a badge appeared on the icon of a piece of content in your runtime that indicated it had been updated. Lets say all you had to do is right click and tell it to install and it would. Done. Or maybe, in the same scenario, you actually wanted it put somewhere else you could right click and select custom install, either to pre-defined alternate locations or to one you would type in on the spot. two clicks... maybe a path typed... DONE. 

Maybe you want your machine off the grid and dont want Studio to call home occasionally to see if there are updates.  Well perhaps you could connect when you choose to or could simply log into the store and see if any updates are waiting.

Maybe you could download everything in one batch... a Backup DL or something.

There are tons of ideas we can come up with. I refuse to believe that either installers or zip files are the best possible way to do it. I know better. Comfortable? Maybe, traditional? Maybe... a good user experience for new customers? Absolutely not.

Im sure you could get used to walking on rocks in your bare feet if you did it for long enough, but lush carpet would still undoubtably feel better. 

This is not anything close to the final say on the matter, and once again, I would like to encourage you to all feel free to offer ideas.  Ive already written down the one about using zip files though ;)

Studio 4 does not run on my system and noone at Daz has any suggestions about why.

[markschum]
---Did you file a detailed bug report or call customer service? If so then I would advise you to try again. The team is busy but they want to help. I cant help without more information in any case.

[Daz Rand]

...I did so, many times over the course of several years regarding render crash issues. Never recieved a reply ever on any of them.  These included detailed information about the scene, excerpts from the logfile, and screenshots where applicable.  When I would log on to the bug tracker site, I never saw anyone assigned to my reports. The lack of any feedback became so frustrating that I gave up filing support tickets altogether as I felt they were just a waste of time.

@Markschum, what are your system specs? I know 4 will not run on mine because my system's video chipset supports only up to ver. 1.4 of OpenGL, ver. 9 of DirectX, and has only one fourth the required minimum VRAM.

Quote - Randal.. did you get a chance to check out Antonia~WM while you are here.. pretty badass, no?

Quote - As a matter of personal taste, I do not care for her looks, and though she beds quite well, I do not necessarily agree that she bends better than Genesis... but I really admire the grass roots community effort to get her made. That is very admirable, unprecedented and a feat to be commended.

I am going to have to assume you don't use any morphs Poser, that would explain it the looks part....  She accepts morphs to make her look different. And by the way, she bends better. But that is just my biased opinion. You can use Antonia WM, we wont tell anyone...

Just out of curiosity, when will you be updating DS so it can use Poser weight mapped characters? Lots of talk about cross compatability, just not concerning DS.

Quote - The fact is that we have made some advances that will improve the experience quite a bit, but they will not be useable until SM issues the upcoming service release that will enable them.

Quote - Like what? I don't see why you're being cagey about this, considering your stated goal was to dispel misinformation. Your answer doesn't make any sense. How could you get Genesis converted in the first place but have issues with any other rig?

Quote - Rob told me what they were, but I have forgotten enough of what he said that I do not want to repeat it for fear of mis-stating it.

You just went from "The fact is..." to "...I have forgotten..." Not only that, all you really said was something about an improved experience linked to Posers service pack. Sounds like you need some sleep. Maybe you could get Rob in here to explain it.

Quote - However, it is Advanced version (or higher) only, so it's not an option in standard DS.  So to get away from "Skittles" colors (sorry it's what they look like) you would immediately have to upgrade.

Also lovingly called the "Fisher Price" interface...lol.

Laurie

Quote - SnowS, I'd also love the idea of some kind of SkinStudio (Windowblinds) app too for skin development.  It would really be a glorified asset manager (png images or whatnot) and compiler (if required).

But it could potentially open another market for vendors and freebie makers who might like to skin the GUI.

I'd like to see the same for Poser too, you can't get to all the assets but can get at most of them.  * Nod at MystiLaraPrincess *

I'm a pretty big one on customization in general.  OT, I've been doing a lot of desktop customization lately in my free time.  You wouldn't recognize my OS as Windows for the most part and I think it's pretty slick how I've set things up (combination of windowblinds, nexus dock, some xWidgets and keeping an eye on the resources required to pull off the changes).

I'm a Rainmeter girl all the way :P. Light on resources, infinitely customizable. But I digress....

Laurie

And yes Rand, sleep. You'll be pummeled again tomorrow...lol. You'll need ur strength :D

Laurie

Quote - . Installers are simply our preferred method and we are within our rights to use the method we prefer. We have heard the request to do simple zip files and as I have already stated... and with all due respect... that is just not a direction we wish to go in. I would be happy to listen to any other ideas.

...don't have them throw useless folders like "Templates", "Readme", "Data", etc.  into the Studio "runtime" tree.  It is an absolute mess compared to the Poser one and is so hapazardly organised.

Quote - I'm a Rainmeter girl all the way :P. Light on resources, infinitely customizable. But I digress....

Laurie

I'm going to have to take a peek at that one Laurie.  I'm always down for alternatives.  All I need now is a Fez and a Bowtie.  Bowties are cool :)

Let me say this right up front. I appreciate Daz trying to communicate.

For me, it's far too late, because that bridge burned down back in the V5 Beta testing stage, when all of a sudden it went to "Install DS and Genesis to work with her".
Ditched, right that second. Told them it will not endear the Poser community to them if it's not usable in Poser.
I was shot down by rabid DS users, while some of the more level headed DS users also expressed concerns.

I've saved myself an awful lot of money by not getting any of the Genesis stuff. And I'm sure a whole lot of Poser users like me tightened their purse strings as well. It's gotta hurt.
The community is divided into two camps: Genesis and non Genesis users. It has nothing to do with DS or Poser, it has to do with the way it's been handled.
Not by Daz, or SM, but by the users themselves. DS users are their own worst enemy sometimes, and I'm avoiding the Daz forums these days. I'm fed up with flippant "Daz is doing things, you should talk to SM about this." replies. Or "Just use DS." Extremely fed up with it.
I don't want to use DS. Poser is my weapon of choice. I can do things in Poser easily, efficiently and the end result is (usually) exactly what I set out to do.
DS? I have tried to use DS and had nothing but problems with the software. I bought DS3A, and it crashed almost constantly on my machine. Every "fix" made it worse and I wrote it off. Period. I spent something like $160 on the software and you can't blame me for not falling into the trap of "Get DS4 Advanced" again.
Unfortunately I couldn't return the blasted thing because the return period expired while I was away. Not Daz's fault, but it still leaves me sour that I have effectively bought a piece of junk, along with a bunch of plugins, which raise that pricetag to well over $250 -- because I believed the hype. I'm an idiot, what can I say.
I won't give it another chance just so I can use a figure that doesn't work in my program of choice. For one thing, it's money I don't have to waste. There is no guarantee that DS4A will run on my system. I loathe this "Content Management Service" that is permanently running, whether I use DS4 or not. It put me off right from the word go.
Leaving a service running when you shut down the program is dirty programming. I don't understand why Daz can't shut the thing down when I close the software.
Adobe does the same thing, but it doesn't bother me as much, because I use Photoshop every day, several times a day.
DS? Definitely not.
I don't like it, I've never liked it, I hate the GUI, I can't find anything, it kept crashing continuously (I never finished a single render). Worse, there is ZERO documentation.
I never had a problem installing content for Poser. It's pretty straightforward and I'd say there is no confusion over where to install things. I have asked numerous times where to install DS plugins, where they have to live in order to work, where and how I can organize content so I A: Find it, B: Can use it.
I never got an answer that explained the DS structure. I just had folders all over the place and I had no idea which I actually needed. Well, the one thing I don't need is a bloated runtime and I hated the DS install with a vengeance, because it was so messy.
I gave it a chance despite not being completely convinced it was for me. I tried, and it turned me off the program, period. Frankly, that's more than I can say about those rabid DS users who keep telling me DS is the "superior" software. I'd wager 99% of those users have never used Poser.
So that's my reason for not using DS. But a LOT of my dislike comes down to the DS user base being obnoxious the moment you say you use Poser.

As for Genesis... Neat idea, but even with the exporter I would end up with a substandard version because of the subdivision. Which is just another reason for me not to pay attention to it, or to invest a single penny.

At this stage, the best thing you could do for Poser users is have a Poser V5 version, one that is weight mappable in Poser. We all know that won't happen, so you'll have to bite the bullet and face facts: Poser users will not buy V5 or anything Genesis, unless it works 100% in Poser.

Of course, even if you did develop a Poser only version...it would be far too late by the time it were available. Look at Antonia. The Poser community is already working on a figure that is extremely versatile, and there is still a lot more to come, and... Antonia is free.
She's being developed by people who use Poser exclusively, so she takes advantage of everything in Poser.
Just like Genesis takes advantage of DS technology.

I think this "rift" is going to widen, unless users on both ends can stop tearing into each other, and there is more communication as to what is really happening -- and that goes for both SM and Daz.

Sorry, long post, but that's where I stand.
Firmly on the Poser 2012 side. I am only buying prop content at Daz (if there are good props, which usually there are), nothing else. Definitely no Genesis.
Consider myself alienated by your decision to make a figure that's only usuable in your own software. I don't blame you for it, but it did make me look elsewhere for content. (And I'm sure stores like Rendo and RDNA are very happy about that, btw. I buy a lot of it there now.)

edit Fixing typos

Quote -
... As a matter of personal taste, I do not care for her looks, and though she beds quite well, I do not necessarily agree that she bends better ...

Rand, this quote alone makes this thread worthwhile.

You've obviously got to know Antonia far better than you're letting on :-)

major issue with having content delivered by the same methods as 'apps'.

content is NOT apps, it is CONTENT, and used in a totally different way.

most established users have their own ideas on where it is to be installed and their own way of sorting. plus, most archive installers and zips as backup, in case anything goes wrong, ie drive crash, product becomes unavailable for some reason etc.

going by the ideas about it, it seems that most of the development team are 'I' 'whatever' users and are only looking at it because the idea is Apple lead and therefore 'cool'.

implementing that sort of content provision will only suit those that cannot work things out for themselves or are lazy, but will alienate many current customers. which will lead to even less people buying at DAZ3D.

but then, why does anyone bother to even reply to this sort of thread?  we already know that only ideas which 'go with the flow' of current DAZ3D thinking.will be considered. anything NOT  suited to their own way of looking at things will have lip service paid, then totally ignored. which has been my experience over the last 3 years.

DAZ3D says it is listening to peoples concerns, possibly true, but they totally ignore everything that they do not particularly want to here.

thats my 2C worth, and with that i am outa here.