Quote - Of course its been considered. that is essentially what our CR2 exporter is doing. If you are talking about exporting a higer rez Subdivided figure out instead fo the Genesis Base.. A) SubD and Subdivided are different. B)Poser has a different method of Subdivision that isnt compatible with the DAZ version of SubD... yet.

Rand, your usage of these terms is simply not correct.  I'm really not trying to nitpick, just this is a common bit of misinformation that keeps getting perpetuated, and coming from you, a lot of people will take it as fact.

Catmull-Clark Subdivision:  DAZ|Studio does this.  Poser does not.

Reyes Polygon Smoothing:  Poser does this.  DAZ|Studio does not.

Please help everyone stop getting confused about these two technologies, they really have very little to do with each other.  Thanks.

Quote - > Quote - Genesis UV sets have different numbers of vertices. Could you explain the reason behind this, or is in an issue that we can expect to be "fixed" with a consistent number of vertices (and consistent splitting between body part when exported as a .cr2)?

That is the whole point of having multiple UVs is it not? I usually want to have two UV sets when an object is to be viewed from e.g. from behind and from the front. So i want to have one UV with it's seams on the backside and one with the seams on the front. Those would necessarily have a different number of vertices.

No, that problem with vertex count seems to be purely a technical bug, unless DAZ cares to explain otherwise.  Even the hard core D|S users are treating it as a problem and not a feature:

http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=175224&start=360&sid=d7fce31e4fe4050bcdbe38d1fd11ec5e

Quote - That is the whole point of having multiple UVs is it not?

No, it's not, necessarily. And they don't seem to be the cause for this disparity AFAICS. The differences aren't well understood, seem odd, and makes supporting swapping UV Sets in Poser harder.

Quote - I usually want to have two UV sets when an object is to be viewed from e.g. from behind and from the front. So i want to have one UV with it's seams on the backside and one with the seams on the front. Those would necessarily have a different number of vertices.

Genesis V4 and Genesis M4 don't have UV sets that have splits "out of sight" on the back for V4 and the front for M4. And the group splits are the same between the different morphs becuase, well, they're morphs... so I'm really not convinced that the uv sets really need different seams to that degree. I'd love to see where the differences actually are though, if that's the issue.

Quote - > Quote - I'm a bit puzzled actually as to why Genesis has a grouped mesh in Poser - doesnt' Poser support "single skin" meshes like DAZ 4 does? (honest enquiry, I thought Poser 9/2012 were supposed to suppor tthis feature and was surprised to find Genesis all split up).

It does, but that does not mean you want it that way. In Poser (as in DS) you can select a body part by directly clicking with your mouse in the 3d-viewport (besides selecting the body part in the actors list menu). But the 3d-viewport does not show actors, it shows only the mesh. So when you want to get the 'head'-actor selected when you click on the mesh-part that supposedly belongs to the head, Poser has somehow to know which actor belongs to that mesh part and for this it uses the groups.

Ah! Thanks for that. I had assumed that if Poser had support for a single-skin mesh then that would include the ability to select the actors. I'm not sure how much use it would be to have a figure where selecting joints is difficult to impossible, so yes - grouping Genesis in Poser makes perfect sense in that light.

^^ There's a large thread devoted to this problem (or feature or whatever it turns out to be) in the DAZ Nuts and Bolts forum:

http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=178689

e: there is some honest doubt as to whether it's a bug with the exporter or an intended, useful feature

Indeed, though I'm not sure I'd call anyone in those 2 threads "hardcore D|S users" exactly - after all, anyone reading (or posting to) them has to have more than half an interest in Poser compatability for Genesis, as that's the subject at hand. So they must all - or at least mostly - be Poser users, I'd have thought. though possibly joint Poser/DAZ Studio users. Would that mean they are "softcore DS users"? ;)

Okay, perhaps "very enthusiastic about Genesis" would have been better.  Basically people who are willing to pick apart the DSF format and are bright enough to script the transfer of UV sets (certainly I'm not either of those).

Quote - I have read at least 24 requests for ZIP files.
And the listening ears stay firmly closed. (At least 5 confirmations to this.)

What is the point to start an (ahum) open discussion if one refuses to listen to its customers???????

There's a bit of a difference between refusing to listen and disagreement. I'm one of those who would far FAR prefer .zip files to installers, and am highly alarmed to see DAZ seemingly heading in exactly the wrong direction. But that doesn't mean that Rand and Dan have not listened to me - they can listen and still disagree.

I (and presumably the other 23 commentators) can at least hope that we have been heard (we've been responded to, politely) and that DAZ won't decide to take an "enforced crapware" approach to content delivery. I could talk on this issue all day, so I should probably stop now because it's boring. But I would FAR prefer to voice my preference and have it shot down than to not speak up, and I appreciat ethe responses (especially where I interpret responses from Dan and Rand to indicate a potential for "You'll still be able to do it then sensible way if you like")

On a similar note, I think the neuter base is a terrible idea, and it'll keep me out of using and developing content for Genesis, but - that's the way they're doing it.  Not really any point bitching about it, that's just the way it's gonna be.

Everyone who knows something different to you seems bright. But you know what? You probably dazzle them with your brightness in another area of 3D :)

Pth. Ptooey. Pthlump. Yeuk, that tasted too sugary for me! Try and rephrase it so it sounds more ... I dunno, bitter please. But I sincerely mean the general thrust of the sentiment, just not the sugar coating.

Enthusiasm is fun. I don't get enthusiastic often enough in recent years. Enthusiasm makes you younger! :D

I think I may have a fever. Gosh, I hate saying nice things! Don't they always sound so... manufactured? lol

I think the idea of having a single mesh that can morph into a variety of characters one with excellent possibilities, especially in the area of science fiction imagery. After all, we do something similar ourselves - male and femal aren't different conceptually IIRC. I must admit I'm not 100% sure about a neuter base rather than a flat-chested female base, but I think I get the logic behind it. A little bit PC but it's probably easier to "become female" and "become male" with equal quality if the base is somewhere between those states. So perhaps it avoids "favouring" one sex over the other, I'm not 100% sure.

I see all SORTS of potential problems with the route, and must admit that I'm surprised at the rapidity of this current step - from V4 to Genesis. V2-V3-V4 was very slowly going in this direction then BAM! Lots of changes all at once.

I'll enjoy looking back in a few years and seeing how well the idea worked.

Well, I think the benefit of a neuter base is pretty prevalent - all you need to do is look at the outcry for more male content. Yes, its no secret.... the females are heavily favored in the community. Having a base that can morph anything with it across the board is pretty smart. Even if it seems awkward in some cases.

Granted... not everything will work across the board. Some things are definitively female and can't go masculine... or at least not without some giggling ensuing lol But the fact that your wardrobe effectively doubles when you buy an outfit that serves as a pretty neutral base - whether youre using a troll, Anubis, etc, is pretty darn cool.

And this was what the community asked for - they wanted their money to go further, and DAZ listened. Not only in that aspect, but also making Generation 4 content work with Genesis using Auto-Fit.

Dislciamer: I am answering this as person in the community, not as a representative of DAZ. My opinions are merely my own and not intended to insult or inflame anyone. My name is IgnisSerpentus (which I know is difficult to spell correctly) and Im a girl, not a dood. And yes, I like to play with snakes.....

Quote - Well, I think the benefit of a neuter base is pretty prevalent - all you need to do is look at the outcry for more male content. Yes, its no secret.... the females are heavily favored in the community. Having a base that can morph anything with it across the board is pretty smart. Even if it seems awkward in some cases.

Granted... not everything will work across the board. Some things are definitively female and can't go masculine... or at least not without some giggling ensuing lol But the fact that your wardrobe effectively doubles when you buy an outfit that serves as a pretty neutral base - whether youre using a troll, Anubis, etc, is pretty darn cool.

And this was what the community screamed for - they wanted their money to go further, and DAZ listened. Not only in that aspect, but also making Generation 4 content work with Genesis using Auto-Fit.

Dislciamer: I am answering this as person in the community, not as a representative of DAZ. My opinions are merely my own and not intended to insult or inflame anyone. My name is IgnisSerpentus (which I know is difficult to spell correctly) and Im a girl, not a dood. And yes, I like to play with snakes.....

Having a neuter base will not produce more male clothing I think - maybe even less. I do not believe any of the majority of female clothing released by DAZ or Rendo or wherever to be ever worn by a male.  So in all likelyhood this will not change

Having V4 clothing worn by the new figure is very good if all movement morphs remain available and no stretching or other unwanted deforming takes place. That has been the major problem with all conversion cloth utilities and I don't think autofit is much better in that respect

I have ALWAYS heavily favoured the females - long before I got involved in any 3D communities :)

Well there are certain things that can work across the board. Take armor for example. It might be primarily masculinely made, but V5 could sport it just fine. Obviously, you can't put a tutu on a troll... well, you can, but lol I just mean that a lot of stuff which was predominantly made in such a way that its neutral, will work just fine. And far easier than the traditional system we are coming from, where it would require 049309493094 morphs to make it work.

And actually, on the topic of Auto fit... I think there is a tool that will transfer the morphs over as well. I can't say for certain what it is or how it works (maybe someone else who knows can answer) coz I only saw it once in passing and haven't used it myself.

Quote - I have ALWAYS heavily favoured the females - long before I got involved in any 3D communities :)

LOL

Quote - Well there are certain things that can work across the board. Take armor for example. It might be primarily masculinely made, but V5 could sport it just fine. Obviously, you can't put a tutu on a troll... well, you can, but lol I just mean that a lot of stuff which was predominantly made in such a way that its neutral, will work just fine. And far easier than the traditional system we are coming from, where it would require 049309493094 morphs to make it work.

And actually, on the topic of Auto fit... I think there is a tool that will transfer the morphs over as well. I can't say for certain what it is or how it works (maybe someone else who knows can answer) coz I only saw it once in passing and haven't used it myself.

Maybe for things like armor - but even there the majority is unfit for a male.....

Some clothing will be usable for both female and male - but most of those is already available for both.

The V4 clothing has not been designed around a neuter base so those will transfer even less favorable to a male

I have been using convertors for a long time and at first glance they look ok, but then when you do a closeup you see that things like buttons, collars and other geometric things are deformed. Going from a female to a male leaves terrible deformations around the chest area. If you add morphs it gets even worse. And then if you add texture stretching if becomes very bad.

Occasionally conversions work really well, but that is usually between similar meshes

Quote - PMD has been around since Poser 6.

Let's go way back... Why not allow Material Collections and MT5 support along with support for the Materials folder so in the name of cross-compatibility we can get the bloat out of the Pose folders?  I'm talking more about accepting the file "extension" than some kind of transfer of shader nodes between the programs (in which case DS does translate "some" nodes - or simple reads the pz2 "header" - in order to use MAT Pose Files generated from Poser at all).

DS3 (at least) reads pmd files, though there was a problem in that the format of the load call changed with successive SR for Poser 6. What DS won't do is read a pmd from a pose file, which is a feature used for distributing some morph expansions. DS4 does now read the Poser Materials library, though it still skips the whole shader tree and reads only the base settings. However, since DS3 doesn't it may be a while before that is reflected in content packaging I suspect. > Quote - The basic flaw in EULAs for digital content and software is that you don't see the EULA until after you've bought the product. In the case of software in a box, you don't see the EULA until after you've opened the box, at which time the vendor won't take it back (due to the slimy practice of copying the material off the disk and then asking for a refund). 

So you buy some digital content from DAZ or Rendo or anyone. Upon installing you read the EULA and find it too draconian for your taste. Too bad, you already bought it. Your options are to install and agree to the EULA or not to install.

Remember that DAZ has a 30 day money back guarantee, so in this case you could ask for a refund. The DAZ EULA is also in the Knowledge Base if you follow the links under Support on page on the site, though I'm not sure there's a direct link without searching for EULA. > Quote - And actually, on the topic of Auto fit... I think there is a tool that will transfer the morphs over as well. I can't say for certain what it is or how it works (maybe someone else who knows can answer) coz I only saw it once in passing and haven't used it myself.

There is a route, but it's pricey since you need DS4 Pro or DS4 Advanced and the CCTs - in brief, convert the clothes or hair to a weight-mapped figure, then use the Transfer Utility with Reverse Deformations to convert to Genesis.

Quote - Maybe for things like armor - but even there the majority is unfit for a male.....

Some clothing will be usable for both female and male - but most of those is already available for both.

The V4 clothing has not been designed around a neuter base so those will transfer even less favorable to a male

I have been using convertors for a long time and at first glance they look ok, but then when you do a closeup you see that things like buttons, collars and other geometric things are deformed. Going from a female to a male leaves terrible deformations around the chest area. If you add morphs it gets even worse. And then if you add texture stretching if becomes very bad.

Occasionally conversions work really well, but that is usually between similar meshes

Ive done some testing... Auto fit does pretty good. But yah, there are some issues... most notably the breast area and where shoes are concerned. But this is only the inception of the new tech... Im sure a lot will be improved upon in coming releases. For now, there are ways around some of the issues, if you know things like ZBrush and whatnot (though I wouldn't expect customers to have to diddle with that stuff - I mean more on a development level)

@Richard - Thanks for adding the explanation for the transfer utility. Ive been meaning to find out more about that, actually, coz Ill be needing it lol

Quote - Ive done some testing... Auto fit does pretty good. But yah, there are some issues... most notably the breast area and where shoes are concerned. But this is only the inception of the new tech... Im sure a lot will be improved upon in coming releases. For now, there are ways around some of the issues, if you know things like ZBrush and whatnot (though I wouldn't expect customers to have to diddle with that stuff - I mean more on a development level)

All conversion programs have these problems. And they haven't been able to get it right (better, but not "right"), so I am a bit skeptic if the autofit can do it with V4 clothing

Of course - if I fiddle with morph brushes or modelling programs I can always get it better - but the point of a conversion program is that you don't have to do this....

Quote - Going from a female to a male leaves terrible deformations around the chest area.

Hence the recommendation for the neuter shape.  

Quote - Well, I think the benefit of a neuter base is pretty prevalent - all you need to do is look at the outcry for more male content. Yes, its no secret.... the females are heavily favored in the community

One of my gripes was the fact that I would see an outfit and ask if there will be a male version made and be told "Male clothing doesn't sell so I won't be able to do it." Also asking about scaling characters similar to Steph4 got a similar answer. If nothing else, people that do art using male characters got a bigger boost because I can grab certain items from genesis female and use it on the males, and now i can scale and morph the bodies and still have all the clothing fit without asking others to make fits or learn how to use magnets.

Quote - > Quote - Going from a female to a male leaves terrible deformations around the chest area.

Hence the recommendation for the neuter shape.  

Quote - Well, I think the benefit of a neuter base is pretty prevalent - all you need to do is look at the outcry for more male content. Yes, its no secret.... the females are heavily favored in the community

One of my gripes was the fact that I would see an outfit and ask if there will be a male version made and be told "Male clothing doesn't sell so I won't be able to do it." Also asking about scaling characters similar to Steph4 got a similar answer. If nothing else, people that do art using male characters got a bigger boost because I can grab certain items from genesis female and use it on the males, and now i can scale and morph the bodies and still have all the clothing fit without asking others to make fits or learn how to use magnets.

We were taling about the Autofit tool - There is no neuter base there.

And for the other argument: Male outfit will still not sell - nothing has changed in that respect

Well, male stuff sells... just not to the extent that female content does. And thats primarily why creators shy away from it. But that is actually precisely the point Genesis is made to help with. Sure, its not gonna do the trick in all cases, but I think it certainly helps.

To make an outfit for Genesis (even a female one) you have to model it to the neuter base (for reasons that make the development easier) If it is modelled to the neuter base from the start, and the outfit can go either way in its design (but is marketed primarily for females) then someone can buy it and use it for male purposes.

Traditionally, if it could go both ways in its style, but didn't have the morphs to make it male, then that kinna canned the entire idea of buying it for that reason. Genesis actually opened up the possibilities. It might not be as far going as people hoped, but something is definitely better than nothing - and its a start.

To get a good fit on the female you have to model it around the female form and then modify it for the neuter form. To make a good fit for the male you have to go one step further and adjust it for the male form.

But time will tell. I think there will be an outcry for more "real" male clothing in a few months for precisely the reason I gave you

But you don't need my word for it - Check out the DAZ store for genesis clothing. How much can be worn by males (in "real" life of course, not as a joke)

Quote - > Quote - Going from a female to a male leaves terrible deformations around the chest area.

Hence the recommendation for the neuter shape.  

But this solves only half of the problem, IMHO. Automorphed clothes usually don't look good in the breast area, there are no folds but a kind of shrink-wrap. Is the Genesis tool better than that?

Quote - > Quote - Per the Microsoft document you linked above, the end of extended support for Windows XP is April 8, 2014.

 

Which consumers do not qualify for. This is for companies that haven't upgraded from XP or have applications that do not work in later versions of Windows and haven't modified. Also they may be paying for that support.

http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifepolicy

Sorry, I think you are mistaken.  Consumers are receiving extended support (security updates).  I know I am.

I think you may be confusing their hardware (Xbox etc.) with the OS.  (Consumer, Hardware, and Multimedia products).

Here is the link for Windows XP.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/products/lifecycle

Windows XP became a special case because the new Netbooks could not run the bloated Windows Vista.  (Several very large computer companies demanded the extended support). 

Support for the current, and previous versions of software has been the industry standard for over 40 years!

Quote - > Quote -

So, a question to DAZ_Rand...will they address the outstanding issues in DS3/DS3A?  I do see that they've done some work on Hexagon, for which I'm sure many are thankful.  Is this a precedent?  Or just a fluke?

Dana

 

If im being completly honest, and I am.... I must tell you that DS3 is a low priority. Hexagon was a big priority to fix this last round of issues but now that its done its low priority again. Documentation (and education), The Store, and the Download/install issue have top billing at the moment.

 

I must say that this is very disappointing!  So, I've spent a lot of money...can't spend much more, and issues that you said would be fixed before DS4 came out are now low priority.  This is one reason people get so upset.  Things are promised but never come to fruition.

I think I'm done here, I've gotten the answer to my questions...not the answer I had hoped for, but kind of expected.

As far as the Download/Install issue...it seems that you've done what you always do...get a "cool" idea and begin work on it before asking the end users if they even want such a thing.  I think it's obvious from comments made here that they do not want a download manager.

Dana

Quote - Ive done some testing... Auto fit does pretty good. But yah, there are some issues... most notably the breast area and where shoes are concerned. But this is only the inception of the new tech... Im sure a lot will be improved upon in coming releases. For now, there are ways around some of the issues, if you know things like ZBrush and whatnot (though I wouldn't expect customers to have to diddle with that stuff - I mean more on a development level)

When you get past the testing stage, and you're doing a highly detailed conformer for Genesis, let me know if you still think it's such a great advantage to have that neuter base.  This isn't a slam, I know you're a capable modeler.

Quote - One of my gripes was the fact that I would see an outfit and ask if there will be a male version made and be told "Male clothing doesn't sell so I won't be able to do it." Also asking about scaling characters similar to Steph4 got a similar answer. If nothing else, people that do art using male characters got a bigger boost because I can grab certain items from genesis female and use it on the males, and now i can scale and morph the bodies and still have all the clothing fit without asking others to make fits or learn how to use magnets.

Sure but getting garments to fit either is still a lot more work than it used to be - this is a step backward, not forward.

Yeah, unfortunately, I haven't done much past testing for the moment. I had a couple packs in progress for Generation 4, so the plan was to continue with them as they were originally intended. Plus, I have a ton to learn yet about the new tech. Also, since Im a Poser developer and adopted DS support over time, I won't abandon any of my customers, whether they use DS or Poser. So I have tons of obstacles to surmount lol

I can see your point tho... it is gonna be tricky to model something to a neuter base - esp where its intended for a female. I imagine Im gonna have to tweak stuff, or maybe add morphs to make it fit better or more realistically. But if I do something unisex.. and it means I am catering to a larger demographic.... the advantage will be pretty obvious.

At any rate it's really a moot point, because that's just how it's gonna be.  I can already see a huge difference in the rate conformers are being released through DAZ's store, compared to V4/M4, and imo that's pretty obviously bad for everyone (DAZ, users and content creators), but it's not like they're going to just drop the neuter base this minute.

I think a lot of that is jsut because most of the content creators are primarily Poser users that are getting their head around new tech. Not just Genesis but DAZ Studio, in general.

Quote - I think a lot of that is jsut because most of the content creators are primarily Poser users that are getting their head around new tech. Not just Genesis but DAZ Studio, in general.

Agreed. And even the jump from DS3 to DS4 is pretty profound. Even though I started with Poser, it got to the point where I used to use DS3 Advanced pretty avidly (like on a 60:40 ratio) but figuring out where everything is in the new UI is trial and error. Alas, thats always how it goes when youre learning new software.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Per the Microsoft document you linked above, the end of extended support for Windows XP is April 8, 2014.

 

Which consumers do not qualify for. This is for companies that haven't upgraded from XP or have applications that do not work in later versions of Windows and haven't modified. Also they may be paying for that support.

http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifepolicy

 

Sorry, I think you are mistaken.  Consumers are receiving extended support (security updates).  I know I am.

 

I think you may be confusing their hardware (Xbox etc.) with the OS.  (Consumer, Hardware, and Multimedia products).

 

Here is the link for Windows XP.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/products/lifecycle

 

Windows XP became a special case because the new Netbooks could not run the bloated Windows Vista.  (Several very large computer companies demanded the extended support). 

 

Support for the current, and previous versions of software has been the industry standard for over 40 years!

 

Using XP as an exacmple was a bad analogy. And my netbook has Win7 64 bit full. You can't compare support for 10 year old XP and the newer versions of Poser and DS. Can't compare a widespread OS and a small, hobbyist 3d software. It's a stupid analogy. For one, all your are now getting for XP are security updates. Not the same as new feature updates. And we all know that ain't happening. Apples and oranges.

Quote - This is a small market there is no denying it. We all know it.  Its one of our main initiatives at DAZ 3D to attract new users  to this community and create new 3D "addicts" like us. We have been accused and attacked for "abandoning" the Poser users, we have no intention of doing that, which is why I am here, but NOBODY should have any issue whatsoever with us trying to bring in fresh blood.  Are you saying that you wouldn’t give almost anything to reach 100,000 more customers... even if they were complete novices? Adapting to a position where we can appeal to a complete novice AND a seasoned veteran is the goal and we believe it can be done

...I have nothing against attracting new customers to Daz. Over the years since I became involved in 3D CG, I have suggested to many who were interested to fo to the Daz3D site, DL the (then) free version and one of the free content packages (first the 3D Bridge Pack then Anime Starfighter bundle) to get a feel for the programme. This is something I still applaud Daz for as the free version was the full blown base programme (not some "emasculated" 30 day trial) which let you not only render a scene but save the final result with no annoying watermarks or size restrictions.  

However I feel moving the free version to an online only status is kind of a step in the wrong direction.  Not everyone has a 24/7 high speed fibre optic network connection and many have restricted download limits and/or (such as myself) poor or slow connectivity.  Furthermore being online takes valuable processing and memory reources away.  For example I'm runninng FF right now and it is chewing up over a quarter gig of my RAM.

When I chose DazStudio four years ago it was because the core application was free, no strings attached, no cost to join. I didn't need a network connection to use it or under a deadline of some imposed expiration date so I could work at my own speed when and where I pleased.  I would never have explored it's possibilities If I had to base the decision on a hamstrung demo, pony up hard earned cash first, or was required to be connected to the net (as back then I could only do so at a public "hotspot") to do so.

That said, my one concern is that attracting new people into the fold shouldn't be done so at the expense of those who have been on board for years and cannot or choose not to upgrade to the "latest and greatest".  There is an RPG publisher who did that six years ago (not GDW or WotC), who in so doing alienated many of the system's long time customers and supporters (myself for one) by totally gutting the game's mechanics and setting and making it play more like a "Pen and Paper" version of an MMO.  Granted, we were not prevented from playing the older version because we actually "owned" the books and they didn't require expensive computer hardware to use. When an inconsistency or vagueness in the rules arose, we could simply "debug" it through what is known as "house-ruling" which didn't violate copyright (and was actually encouraged by the game designers) as long as we didn't republish the information for public sale. Unfortunately this does not work the same way with graphics software because we only own the licence to the use the programme, are bound by the EULA, and access to the application's source code (along with programming expertise) is required to make any fixes.  Hence we are dependent on the company's development team to do the "houseruling" for us.

Since ver.4 seems to be a break from previous versions of the application, making the necessary long awaited fixes to Studio3/3A does not require retooling or "rolling back" anything. It does not threaten sales of ver.4 for this is now the "SOTA" version of the application that newcomers to Daz will see and most likely buy.

Quote - These are a collection of screenshots from my Studio "Runtime" folder content tree in S3A.  All of the blue highlighted selections are non-content folders (e.g. contain nothing that can be loaded into a scene) which are clearly the result of Daz installers as can be seen from the folder names.  When I install content from Zip files, I do so manually by first extracting to a temp. folder and then moving the individual component folders (Geometries, Characters, Poses, etc.) into their proper locations.  Templates, Readmes & the like go into separate folders outside of the Studio application.

Content "Data" folders, while important for the application, should not be visible anywhere in the Content tab.

This is just downright sloppy programming and I'm not even a programmer.

Quote - This isnt the doing of DAZ 3D. its the doing of PAs and mostly its Poser content compatibility that is the culprit.  Since DS4 came out, this is less of an issue because we check this more.

...so why didn't this go through Q & A in the first place? As Daz only uses .exe installers they should have tested all .exes to make sure that the complete install package was properly set up before it hit the store. These "extraneous" folders make a real mess of the Studio content tree and navigating it a chore.  This is why I am in favour of .zip files for even though it is more work on my part to install content, at least I can have complete control over where everything goes. ...and with that in mind...

Quote - Regarding zips, I think we should keep in mind that 24 'voters' represents maybe about 0.003% of the DAZ customer base, if it reaches 100,000 mark. DAZ needs to do whatever it thinks is best for the majority.

Having said the above I would also personally prefer ZIP files. I would be happy with an executable which requires that I actively accept the EULA, and if I accept the EULA the executable then creates a ZIP file in the same directory.

...Now that would be a good idea as it would allow those of us who design our own runtime structures greater flexibility and would eliminate the situation I mentioned above.  it could be implemented as an option with a check box after the EULA is accepted.  If one chooses the .zip file option, then the .exe bypasses the install process and goes directly to the "finish" page.  Elegant.

Quote - Sorry, I think you are mistaken.  Consumers are receiving extended support (security updates).  I know I am.  

I think you may be confusing their hardware (Xbox etc.) with the OS.  (Consumer, Hardware, and Multimedia products).

 

Here is the link for Windows XP.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/products/lifecycle

 

Windows XP became a special case because the new Netbooks could not run the bloated Windows Vista.  (Several very large computer companies demanded the extended support). 

Support for the current, and previous versions of software has been the industry standard for over 40 years!

Nope, being a Microsoft Certified Solution Developer (MCSD), I'm not. Those updates are courtesy as a result of the Extended Support to corporations. If that support wasn't in place, you wouldn't get the updates. Because those corporations have employees that may use their own personal machines to access corporate resources is why the updates are streamed to everyone. Also there is no mechanism to restrict those updates to computers... however, if you  (as a consumer, not paid corporate support) try to call Microsoft support to try to create a ticket, you're going to be told that Windows XP is not supported and hang up on you. Another avenue would be through the company you bought your computer from, for instance Dell. If you have extended support though that company, they may also handle support and pass tickets directly to microsoft on your behalf.  Most consumers at best can purchase a 2-3 year extended support when they purchase a machine, but most likely those plans have run out long ago in the case of windows XP and should be ending with Vista.

Quote -
Using XP as an exacmple was a bad analogy. And my netbook has Win7 64 bit full. You can't compare support for 10 year old XP and the newer versions of Poser and DS. Can't compare a widespread OS and a small, hobbyist 3d software. It's a stupid analogy. For one, all your are now getting for XP are security updates. Not the same as new feature updates. And we all know that ain't happening. Apples and oranges.

Actually you can compare it that way.

Xp 64 has had more then just security updates as well. xp32 has had functionality updates as well, they were just rolled into some of the security updates.

They made a new virtual machine shell for it to use Xp in Windows 7 as well.

If that isn't support or upgrades, I don't know what is.

If you have an XP enterprise or server serial, you can still get phone support as well.

Quote - > Quote -

Using XP as an exacmple was a bad analogy. And my netbook has Win7 64 bit full. You can't compare support for 10 year old XP and the newer versions of Poser and DS. Can't compare a widespread OS and a small, hobbyist 3d software. It's a stupid analogy. For one, all your are now getting for XP are security updates. Not the same as new feature updates. And we all know that ain't happening. Apples and oranges.

Actually you can compare it that way.

Xp 64 has had more then just security updates as well. xp32 has had functionality updates as well, they were just rolled into some of the security updates.

They made a new virtual machine shell for it to use Xp in Windows 7 as well.

If that isn't support or upgrades, I don't know what is.

If you have an XP enterprise or server serial, you can still get phone support as well.

The virtual machine is there for compatibity for applications that don't work in Windows 7. Win7 was rewritten from scratch (again) and that broke applications that used to work in Windows XP. You can download the free VirtualPC application and use that to install other OS other than XP (though you have to do a little work). We use it to connect to clients that haven't upgraded to Windows 7 and their VPN is not compatible.

Quote - Going from a female to a male leaves terrible deformations around the chest area. If you add morphs it gets even worse. And then if you add texture stretching if becomes very bad.

This is where I feel UV swapping could be handy.

Yes, it is there for compatablity, but it isn't a security update either.

It was a functionality update that others said never happened.

I would expect to see one for Windows 8 as well

Quote - > Quote - Going from a female to a male leaves terrible deformations around the chest area. If you add morphs it gets even worse. And then if you add texture stretching if becomes very bad.

This is where I feel UV swapping could be handy.

Yep, exactly. UV switching is a stroke of genius, imho.

If you really need to discuss this, could you please make another thread for those Microsoft XP discussions and don't discuss it here? It's really off topic. 

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Going from a female to a male leaves terrible deformations around the chest area. If you add morphs it gets even worse. And then if you add texture stretching if becomes very bad.

This is where I feel UV swapping could be handy.

Yep, exactly. UV switching is a stroke of genius, imho.

UV switching isn't going to help mesh deformations like in the chest area. If you apply a clean uniform texture it is still distorted

UV switching is a good idea when you have different type of figures, but there is a limit to how much different textures you can have for all different type of figures. Example: A texture for female, male is easy, but add a troll, dwarve, big or small chested woman or a child and it gets unmanageable.  For relatively uniform textures such as skin maps it is OK, but for detailed clothing with embroidery it will be clearly visible

Quote - UV switching isn't going to help mesh deformations like in the chest area. If you apply a clean uniform texture it is still distorted

You are mistaken..that is exactly what uv switching IS good for.

You can have a map for any specific shape and have all the potentially distorted areas optimized specifically to that shape.

Thanks for the clarification Richard, I didn't know that DS4 read the materials library.  The "header" portion is fine since that's all it reads from MAT Poses already, I suspect.

There's a lot I don't know about DS4 and that's why I've been trying to follow my comments with question marks (I do miss doing that at times though).

Also glad to hear that DAZ has plans to perhaps offer themes or include some different variations for all flavors of DS4.  I guess it's a little thing to some but when you stare at an interface for an extended amount of time, It has an impact.  I really liked the Carrara/Hex themes for DS3 (I believe there was a Hex one).

I'm not sure how I feel on the whole neuter base issue.  I understand the points made but I share the point of view that there are only very few clothing items that you would put on both genders and you kind of sacrifice working around a mesh designed to flow around a certain gender/type.

However, I am not sure Genesis creates a new clothing/accessories market if it can simply adopt existing clothing from the V4 line (keeping in mind that Autofit has drawbacks at this time).  On the Poser side, particularly, it seems to push simply making more V4 clothing because you get compatibility across all the platforms and most of the versions and Genny can wear it too.

Quote - > Quote - UV switching isn't going to help mesh deformations like in the chest area. If you apply a clean uniform texture it is still distorted

 

You are mistaken..that is exactly what uv switching IS good for.

 

You can have a map for any specific shape and have all the potentially distorted areas optimized specifically to that shape.

 

If you compress a mesh in the chest area, the facets of the mesh will have a slightly different orientation and the light bounces differently. A change of texture for that area will correct the alignment, but not the direction of the light it reflects.

This is most prominent in going from female to male or viceversa

If you model the mesh in that area, the direction of each facet is synchronized and reflects light in a more uniform way. 

In a genesis environment where multiple figure shapes are mixed this would be even a greater challenge to correct

But I have not investigated DS4's UV switching technique, so I am interested to see a shirt going from female to male in a scene with unidirectional light and harsh shadows in a closeup.

Ive never had that issue after compressing (in base geom or via morph) But at any rate, UV Switching on its own will not solve mesh defects. That's common sense. The intention is to use it with a series of other techniques, such as when using morphs that would otherwise deform the texture, or smoothing of the geometry to correct defects and such.

Yeah, there's definitely a good amount of stuff you have to cover when doing development. But then, everything thats worth something, never comes easy or quick.

Quote - > Quote - Ummm now after all of that I have a few questions, and since this thread is still user friendly I though I may ask a few questions, Autofit, this is one of the main things that I need to work when I do purchase my Genesis goodies.  I've heard mixed feelings on how it works, some say clothes carry over smoothly and others say the program does not work well on all clothes.  Is there anyone looking into this, I see you have posted that the Gen 3 figures are in the works for autofit, unless that was wishful thinking on my part, and I would like to think that by then autofit will work smoothly on the G4 outfits as well as the G3 ones.  Because I would give anything to be able to use all of my Gen 3 content on a figure that I can morph into having hooves for feet.....

Well... I have good news for you.

1. We are indeed working on Gen 3. We have already released David 3.  A3, M3, and V3 are half finished.

2. We are doing R&D on how to make the fitting better, we recently updated the autofit clones and they work better now and we are looking into other options to give you flexability on how the fit is adjusted. 

3. Our Engineers prioritize development in three week segments. In the current segment they are looking at how they can improve the fitting of shoes, and how to carry over bones and morphs in the the process

4. We are we are going to be doing hooves at some point. With Geografting this should be easy

 

If the above is a stupid question, I apologize, I don't know much about the technical stuff and I haven't yet had the chance to use autofit for myself, just going by posts I have seen by those who have.

 

A new equine on the way, call me excited to hear that.  YAY!

Well we are committed to the idea. It hasnt been put into the pipeline yet. I am guessing Q2 2012... but that is just an informed guess at this stage.

 

Also, I thank you for coming on here, braving the storm so to speak, so that those of us who want to have our voice heard without having to shout above the uproar just to be acknowledged have that chance.

My pleasure, its great to talk nicely with Y'all (yeah, im from Tennessee... wanna make sumthin of it? LOL )

Thank you, and that is great news indeed.  :)  When everything comes together for Genesis I think it's going to be a real fun model to work with.  I've played with the base already and gotta admit that I enjoy how it feels like you are working with an actual clay model that you can sculpt, so to hear that the possibility of using older generation clothes and shoes on it is coming is a relief and a joy all in it's own.

That along with the Generation X add on that allows for M4 morphs to be transferred to the figure I will be all set.

As for the horse, I would love to see it as versatile and flexible as Genesis.  Sure a horse that can be morphed into different breeds is ideal, but also to see it capable of being morphed into a day old foal, a weanling, or to have the look of a yearling would be awesome as well as seeing what mutation/creature hybrids we could see come out of the model.    Just a suggestion ;)

I really do thank you for the answers Randy, looks like my worries were for nothing and I have a lot to anticipate for when I upgrade. :) 

Quote - However I feel moving the free version to an online only status is kind of a step in the wrong direction.  Not everyone has a 24/7 high speed fibre optic network connection and many have restricted download limits and/or (such as myself) poor or slow connectivity.  Furthermore being online takes valuable processing and memory reources away.  For example I'm runninng FF right now and it is chewing up over a quarter gig of my RAM.

The online version will NOT be the only free version. There will also be a standalone free version.  It will have fewer features than the currently-free Standard version.

Quote - This isnt the doing of DAZ 3D. its the doing of PAs and mostly its Poser content compatibility that is the culprit.  Since DS4 came out, this is less of an issue because we check this more.
...so why didn't this go through Q & A in the first place? As Daz only uses .exe installers they should have tested all .exes to make sure that the complete install package was properly set up before it hit the store. These "extraneous" folders make a real mess of the Studio content tree and navigating it a chore.  This is why I am in favour of .zip files for even though it is more work on my part to install content, at least I can have complete control over where everything goes.

I think Randall is mistaken here -- the screenshots Kyoto Kid posted look to me like incorrect content folders (or content installed to places that aren't content folders), rather than things that slipped through QA.

Quote - > Quote - ...so basically we are "written off" because those of us on limited budgets don't have the disposable income to buy a big ticket item like a new computer every couple of years.

Ok, let me get this right. You actually are upset that Daz will not cater to your OLD computer and to make this concession because you can't afford to buy a new computer??. You must be joking ;). I hope you don't mind if I say so, but that is beyond ridiculous. They're a business. They can't do that. And I completely understand that and I can't afford the newest version of either DS OR Poser.

Yep.

I still keep around (and use) a copy of D|S 3. If you scrounge enough online (for the free version, folks!), it is still out there for download. I'm almost willing to wager that you can get and keep a version 2.x out there as well. So far, aside from Genesis, it still works just fine for my uses.

Incidentally, even if you have an old machine, try getting more RAM for it - as much as the motherboard will stand. The stuff is (depending on type) cheap, plentiful, and easily-got. I paid a whopping $25 for 8GB (2x4GB) of DDR3 PC 10600 laptop RAM (from newegg.com), and so far it's run like a dream. Boosted the render times by around 15-20%, which is not a miracle, but definitely a visible improvement.

Page 11 so far, and I like how the thread has improved...

Quote - However I feel moving the free version to an online only status is kind of a step in the wrong direction.  Not everyone has a 24/7 high speed fibre optic network connection and many have restricted download limits and/or (such as myself) poor or slow connectivity.  Furthermore being online takes valuable processing and memory reources away.  For example I'm runninng FF right now and it is chewing up over a quarter gig of my RAM.

Quote - The online version will NOT be the only free version. There will also be a standalone free version.  It will have fewer features than the currently-free Standard version.

...I cannot rememeber the thread where I read about it on the Daz forums as it was a while ago. As I understand there is to be only Express (online - free), Standard (49.95$), Advanced (229.95$), and Pro (429.95$).  The Standard version is currently free but only for a limited time (probably year's end).

Quote - This isnt the doing of DAZ 3D. its the doing of PAs and mostly its Poser content compatibility that is the culprit.  Since DS4 came out, this is less of an issue because we check this more.

Quote - ...so why didn't this go through Q & A in the first place? As Daz only uses .exe installers they should have tested all .exes to make sure that the complete install package was properly set up before it hit the store. These "extraneous" folders make a real mess of the Studio content tree and navigating it a chore.  This is why I am in favour of .zip files for even though it is more work on my part to install content, at least I can have complete control over where everything goes.

Quote - I think Randall is mistaken here -- the screenshots Kyoto Kid posted look to me like incorrect content folders (or content installed to places that aren't content folders), rather than things that slipped through QA.

...there's nothing loadable in these folders when I open them, I just get a blank selection palette.  I don't change any paths when installing content so I have no idea why these folders end up here other than something wrong with the install.exe.