"the Genesis base technology is superior and above more versatile. I have very little respect for the modern CG film. Its a step back."

LOL!!!Seriously?
post a link to one ANIMATED example of "genesis" doing ONE thing that cannot be & already has not been done by ILM, Digital Domain or Weta Digital.

one link ....please sir!!

Cheers

About the video what was so great about it? You never get to see a close up of the vegetation. And the figure wear a mask, they always do, because the face is the most difficult part. The running was ridiculous and the cloth was glued to the body 99% of the time. 

And Modo is not expensive, not outside the reach of the ordinary amateur, not at all. But a skilled amateur can do better with Cinema 4D + Vue + Genesis.

Link please!!

Am I the only person on the planet who wants a simple, extremely basic function?

Saving a group of props to the library without using Subset Selection!

When I save a prop, I'd expect all the ones parented to it to be saved with it - unless I specifically exclude them.

Duh!

Yeah, and looking through lights with a proper (ie. non-fish-eye) view would be a step into the 21st century too.

Oh, and the ability to set my own kb shortcuts. I have at least half a dozen FREE programs I can think of off the top of my head that let ME decide what shortcuts I want to use.

mac

Attached Link: Iron Sky

Naturally everything can be done using custom made scripts, handmade meshes, lots of money etc. But if that is the professional way remains to be seen.

It is difficult for complete outsiders to get into the Hollywood business as you no doubt know. But check out the link to Iron Sky. The guys who made that made another film before that was completly home made. That was how they made it into business and got to make a real film.

I wonder if anyone did recreate 10 seconds of the Modo video, would wolf359 acept that he could have done the whole clip, giving the time?

All I'm saying is that the pro must watch out for the talented amateur, he is never safe. And that is how it should be.

"The guys who made that made another film before that was completly home made...... blah blah"

Sir..Sir.... SIR!!!...... one issue at a time !!
You claimed:"the Genesis base technology is superior and above more versatile. I have very little respect for the modern CG film. Its a step back."
Now.... prove what claimed about GENESIS...link please.

Cheers

"I wonder if anyone did recreate 10 seconds of the Modo video, would wolf359 acept that he could have done the whole clip, giving the time?

All I'm saying is that the pro must watch out for the talented amateur, he is never safe. And that is how it should be."

Sir that MODO clip was done by a " talented amateur" ONE man
Not a big VFX company. Just a simple example that Vast  vegetation covered scapes with good outdoor lighting can be done without vue involved.

Now on the matter of:"the Genesis base technology is superior and above more versatile. I have very little respect for the modern CG film. Its a step back."

I ask again Sir

link please.

wolf359,

You know very well that I don't have any Genesis clip. But any amateur can make ten seconds of the Modo clip using cheap technology, accessible to anyone. You know it. I know it. It is the sheer amount of work for one person to make such a long sequence that is impressive.

And the contest has begun on who's got the biggest! LOL

"You know very well that I don't have any Genesis clip."

Indeed you do not sir

Nor will you ever have any such genesis animation clip to support gratuitous statements such as:

"the Genesis base technology is superior and above more versatile. I have very little respect for the modern CG film. Its a step back."

................................
 "But any amateur can make ten seconds o of the Modo clip using cheap technology, accessible to anyone. You know it. I know it."

Yes sir.... and that artist who did that  MODO clip is "any amateur "
this was never a point of contention.

Cheers

wolf359,

Certainly you are not comparing Genesis with handmade mesh and handmade scripts? If not can you give a list all all ready made figures in the "professional" world that trumps Genesis?

What creation company is no more where Poser is concerned?  Did SmithMicro announce something?

"Certainly you are not comparing Genesis with handmade mesh and handmade scripts? If not can you give a list all all ready made figures in the "professional" world that trumps Genesis?

IM sorry sir.. can you explain the difference between genesis and a "hand made" mesh??

At some point a DAZ employes put his hands on a key board/mouse wacom etc. and made genesis.

At some point a DAZ employee put his hands on a key board/mouse/ wacom etc. and made the DS4 only scripts to enable autofit , Scaling, UV switching or whatever make genesis what it is.

The professional world builds ANIMATED Figure rigs based on the CG/VFX needs of the paying client for a specific Commercial film /TV /Game title project
( the "kraken' the 'Balroq", the 'nasgoul 'etc etc.)  

This silly "one bloated figure to to be all things"  notion would never work when doing professional CG Character work for paying clients in  big team projects or one man shops.  Even small timers like myself know this

Sort of explains why DAZ's pathetic effort to get the all mighty "genesis" adopted by the Autodesk et al, has been an unmitigated FAILURE!

Cheers

So there are no ready made figures in the film industry...but there is you know. It is only that they are so bad they are better forgotton about.

CG is perfect for architecture or environments (and even monsters, extraterritorial life). When used with real actors the result is usually stunning if properly done. The use of CG for humans in their normal age span however is disappointing. Fit only for children. Custom made or ready-made makes no difference. I rather see an old Disney film.

But games, that is the true habitat for CG humans. And as far as I can see, Genesis is perfectly poised for it. Low-poly, adaptable. It seems unnecessary to custom make every human figure in a game. It is good to remember that the game business turnover more money than the entire film industry.

To summarize my wishes for Poser in the future.

In the long haul truly integrate ALL Poser functionality in 3ds max, Maya and C4D (in the same way Vue has done)

In short term that is immediately! Support for Genesis and Marvelous Designer.

Quote - ....the Genesis base technology is superior and above more versatile. I have very little respect for the modern CG film. Its a step back.

Really.... Wow...

I guess the free DStudio link should be emailed to the people working on Avatar 2.

If you think anything in DS is superior to Houdini or any other high end app, you have bumped your head. You cant even link off board cpus or use the gpu for much of anything in it. With a real video card, any high end app can do physics calculations on the fly. No need to wait, just click run and see if it works. And you can correct for things like the cloth folding up, etc, basically on the fly. That is not so easy in DS, actually, you can't correct for anything on the fly in it..

Oh, Avatar had lots of close ups of plants, no masks on there faces, animals, etc.

Genesis base technology is just that. It is a base, with no plugins for other apps, no expansions, no physics engine, etc. There are a lot of things that it can not do, that high end apps can do. Not the other way around.

Don't get me wrong, Genesis is a neat idea. It is something for hobbists to play around with, but it is far from superior to high end apps.

shvrdavid,

Have I missed something? Where in Avatar do you see CG humans? 

Or do you know of any other film for grownups who use CG humans?

?

Regarding vegetation so was Vue used on 330 shots in Avatar. Along with real shots from Zhangjiajie, Huangshan and Yangshuo.  I visitet all three places when I were trekking in China 2010. Especially Zhangjiajie is Pandora.

Quote - Have I missed something? Where in Avatar do you see CG humans? 

Or do you know of any other film for grownups who use CG humans?

 

Beowulf, Clash of the Titans, Wrath of the Titans, the Immortals, Matrix 1 - 3, LoTR 1 - 3, pretty much all the marvel films. The list goes on and on. 

Are you really suggesting that genesis would have made these films better? Seriously...

Not saying that Poser will ever be expected to achieve those results either, but genesis definitely will not.

~Shane

ExistentialDisorder,

Are you really suggesting that genesis would have made these films better?"

I am not saying that Poser/Genesis is better than handmade mesh and handmade scripts.

I am saying that handmade mesh and handmade scripts for CG humans are not good enough. To begin with, all your cited movies are fantasy films. But it is time to quit this discussion and get back on tracks. I invite you to open a new thread were we can examine those screen shots in detail.

"To begin with, all your cited movies are fantasy films."

FOUL. you did NOT say what was allowed or not. stop shifting the goalposts. or are you just going to deny all examples given with excuses? "oh not that one, it wasn't made in the US" or "no, that ones no good, it has no examples of lama's"... and so on?

you said a film. no qualifiers. period.

"you said a film. no qualifiers. period"

for grownups. I said for growups.

I have not seen all of these films, I have sen Beowulf, Matrix 1 , LoTR 1 - 3

And frankly I don't remember a CG human in any of them.

Maybe in far away stuntscen, a dark scene, in a transformation, in a blurred fight scen, a very very old person with a lot of wrinkles, there are many ways you can cheat. Such as when they showed Angelina Jolie's naked body without the face (with Angelina's real face) THAT worket, because as I said it is the face that is most difficult. But show me a shot on youtube that is not a cheat in any form.

Beowulf is ALL CGI characters................................................................... lol!

anyway, kindly take yours and wolfs debate to a different forum,. this is the POSER forum, about POSER.

Well vintorix! You really need to read up some more about this before you do any more posting. Most movies these days have cgi humans in them and definitely all the ones you've listed. And now we are also talking about closeups.

"kindly take yours and wolfs debate to...."

Not my "debate" 3anson, respectfully.

More accurately Wolf359  handily disposing of an old half empty bag of "troll feed" he found under the back porch.

Now, (much like the troll himself), the bag is Empty

And Wolf359 goes back to his enjoyable re-reading of
Frank Herberts "God Emperor of Dune" on his Kindle Fire Tablet*.*

Cheers

"Most movies these days have cgi humans in them and definitely all the ones you've listed. And now we are also talking about closeups."

I believe it when I see it.

I start another thread, but not today. But if you really want to convince me, send me an email with the link.

Yeah, Beowulf is all CG. They used motion capture and green screens. They didn't paste anyone's face on anything. The faces are CG too. 

And you're not going to get a film that doesn't have "cheats" as there is no software package available that does everything. The majority of CG assets in Avatar were built in ZBrush. I think you can still find the interview with the developers over on ZBC. The vast majority of CG films today use zbrush. It's revolutionized the industry, and it's a very affordable program for most anybody. 

But more in the direction of topic, I think someone mentioned lip syncing in poser, a bit earlier. I would like to see that developed further, but again it requires more accurately developed meshes. Should the animation pallet become its own room? 

I think Poser has the potential of allowing the independant story teller to develop their own films, with their own characters, without the high-end budget that the more "professional" studios require. I see a lot of things moving more towards the independant medium, and I don't see why Poser should be expected or required to not take part in that.

~Shane

Quote -
And Wolf359 goes back to his enjoyable re-reading of
Frank Herberts "God Emperor of Dune" on his Kindle Fire Tablet*.*

Always thought that particular volume was vastly underrated. 

Gentlemen:

Take the Genesis vs other CG discussion to sitemail.

Please return this thread to discussions of the future of Poser.

Okay - back on tracks here...

Vintorix: UI design has been a migraine-generator at least since the days of the WordPerfect paper keyboard overlay, and even before. 

Kai had a damned good idea, and in his time, the results blew everyone's minds. On the other hand, usability studies have evolved a lot since then, and far better paradigms have come out. Poser can take advantage of that, and at the same time learn from the mistakes and missteps discovered along the way. 

But, the main thrust is that they really, really, really need to get up some figures that are more than just perfunctory set of tutorial meshes.

The following is not a Moderator message. It is my personal opinion and viewpoint, to which I am entitled.

Bagginsbill has made the most eloquent statement in this thread when he talks about a lot of mis-information being bandied about.

Am I the only one who caught the little teaser in the last Smith Micro newsletter about the new figure? Does it not appear that SM is doing exactly what we have been exhorting them to do? That being, get a professional team working on a professional figure for Poser?

With this in the wings, I really wonder what all of the figure discussions are actually about. I, for one, am patiently waiting to see what comes of this new project before I spend more time worrying about something that appears to be in the pipeline.

(BB: I hope I have not contributed to the misinformation.)

“Now you could have a program that hides the ten zillion esoteric controls that a pro could tweak to better or more powerful effect, but it's damned tough to do.”

Bingo. Making things easy is really hard – especially if much of your code is 3rd party bolt-ons. At some point, Joe and Jane McDuffer will realize that they can’t use any of the great new stuff stuffed into each new version, so why bother to upgrade. Kinda like politics – take the base for granted too long and you end up unelected. Can it be done? Sure, just like the figures can be done but it would take more money than SM is likely willing to spend.

"Am I the only one who caught the little teaser in the last Smith Micro newsletter about the new figure? Does it not appear that SM is doing exactly what we have been exhorting them to do? That being, get a professional team working on a professional figure for Poser?

With this in the wings, I really wonder what all of the figure discussions are actually about."

Good! now that we are back to the subject of posers future
To this post quoted above and to SM I would query.

Why all the secrecy?

They should take a page from that "other companies" Marketing handbook.

They announce proudly what the next version of their prime figure will be out "Soon"

As soon as some decent finished version of the base topograhy is ready they post images in their forums

They quickly give it to their prime PA's (content makers)

They coordinate a simultaneous preview thread
where of all of the Cool content stuff that will be available on  DAY ONE of the official release is showcased.

By the time the new figure product hits the store There is often such a frenzy to buy their server sometimes crash.

If I had to speculate on the reason for all the cynicism over here I would guess it is because  IMHO many here suspect that they are going to get a Microwaved rehash of the maligned "Ryan" and or "Alyson" meshes or "Dregon" 2.3

At the very least they could quell alot of the speculation& negativity by stating definitively:
**"NO!! any hypothetical new poser figure will NOT be built from the "Ryan" and or "Alyson" meshes".  **

Cheers

Over at RDNA when they first mentioned this project Steve Cooper did refer to it as a new, artistically inspired male figure.  To me that did imply that it would be a new mesh though it is not specifically stated.  I guess we'll see when it comes out.

Quote - "Am I the only one who caught the little teaser in the last Smith Micro newsletter about the new figure? Does it not appear that SM is doing exactly what we have been exhorting them to do? That being, get a professional team working on a professional figure for Poser?

With this in the wings, I really wonder what all of the figure discussions are actually about."

Good! now that we are back to the subject of posers future
To this post quoted above and to SM I would query.

Why all the secrecy?

They should take a page from that "other companies" Marketing handbook.

They announce proudly what the next version of their prime figure will be out "Soon"

As soon as some decent finished version of the base topograhy is ready they post images in their forums

They quickly give it to their prime PA's (content makers)

They coordinate a simultaneous preview thread
where of all of the Cool content stuff that will be available on  DAY ONE of the official release is showcased.

By the time the new figure product hits the store There is often such a frenzy to buy their server sometimes crash.

If I had to speculate on the reason for all the cynicism over here I would guess it is because  IMHO many here suspect that they are going to get a Microwaved rehash of the maligned "Ryan" and or "Alyson" meshes or "Dregon" 2.3

At the very least they could quell alot of the speculation& negativity by stating definitively:
**"NO!! any hypothetical new poser figure will NOT be built from the "Ryan" and or "Alyson" meshes".  **

Cheers

Quote - Why all the secrecy?

I agree - here's how I got there:

At first I disagreed. Apple doesn't say a damn thing about their brand new products until the very day it is released for sale. The original iPhone, iPad, iPod, MacBook Air... all of them weren't even leaked, let alone announced, until the very day Steve Jobs got up on stage and showed one off. Along that vein, Microsoft had a very nasty habit of spewing information about "upcoming" products, with most of them coming to naught (the Courier Tablet, WinFS, etc.)

OTOH, given that this little industry is based on visuals, maybe a bit of marketing and preview would be a Good Thing(tm). SM desperately needs to step up and replace what they once got gratis from you-know-who - flexible-as-hell figures. This is a big thing for them, and demonstrating that they've got it covered is a good start.

Well, to me, the sneak peak in the newsletter looks to have a very familiar frown.  The musculature is clearly different on the shoulders (I don't think that it's just because the arms are raised somewhat more), but I'd swear that the texture belongs to Ryan.

Could just be a WIP texture, of course.  But seeing something that looks eerily familiar does not help to quell the speculation, methinks.

ETA: I was surprised about one thing though. With snarlygribbly's script, Ryan2 looks almost human.  It's astounding!

"I agree - here's how I got there:"

Yep. Of course they'd probably get hit with the 'DAZ Soon' mantra etc, but as Harvey Milk said, "Ya gotta give 'em hope." :-)

OTOH,  "artistically inspired male figure" setting aside whatever 'artistically inspired' means, the fact that they're jumping into the breach with a MALE figure? Well, I said bringing a knife to a gunfight was a bad idea, but pulling out a can opener, devious indeed. Somehow though, I see the boy coming back home with his testicles in a mayonnaise jar.

Quote - "I agree - here's how I got there:"

Yep. Of course they'd probably get hit with the 'DAZ Soon' mantra etc, but as Harvey Milk said, "Ya gotta give 'em hope." :-)

OTOH,  "artistically inspired male figure" setting aside whatever 'artistically inspired' means, the fact that they're jumping into the breach with a MALE figure? Well, I said bringing a knife to a gunfight was a bad idea, but pulling out a can opener, devious indeed. Somehow though, I see the boy coming back home with his testicles in a mayonnaise jar.

I dunno - maybe they're testing the waters with the male figure, then they can cough up the female figure once they get all the kinks and lessons worked out.

I just hope for their sake that it's versatile.

You do raise a good point about "soon!" - I'm guessing that if they do go the preview route, they'd better have at least a rough ETA in place, even if it's "August, 2012" or "End of 4th quarter", or somesuch.

I want gooses and geeses....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRTkCHE1sS4

Quote - I want gooses and geeses....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRTkCHE1sS4

Lmao, its been years since I saw that... I remember my boys laughing at that and commenting about spoiled little girls.... lol...

Quote - "I agree - here's how I got there:"

Yep. Of course they'd probably get hit with the 'DAZ Soon' mantra etc, but as Harvey Milk said, "Ya gotta give 'em hope." :-)

OTOH,  "artistically inspired male figure" setting aside whatever 'artistically inspired' means, the fact that they're jumping into the breach with a MALE figure? Well, I said bringing a knife to a gunfight was a bad idea, but pulling out a can opener, devious indeed. Somehow though, I see the boy coming back home with his testicles in a mayonnaise jar.

:lol:

Funniest thing I've read in a while.  Thanks for the laugh. :) 

Quote - > Quote - "I agree - here's how I got there:"

Yep. Of course they'd probably get hit with the 'DAZ Soon' mantra etc, but as Harvey Milk said, "Ya gotta give 'em hope." :-)

OTOH,  "artistically inspired male figure" setting aside whatever 'artistically inspired' means, the fact that they're jumping into the breach with a MALE figure? Well, I said bringing a knife to a gunfight was a bad idea, but pulling out a can opener, devious indeed. Somehow though, I see the boy coming back home with his testicles in a mayonnaise jar.

 

I dunno - maybe they're testing the waters with the male figure, then they can cough up the female figure once they get all the kinks and lessons worked out.

I just hope for their sake that it's versatile.

You do raise a good point about "soon!" - I'm guessing that if they do go the preview route, they'd better have at least a rough ETA in place, even if it's "August, 2012" or "End of 4th quarter", or somesuch.

Admittedly I have absolutely no idea of their strategy but it seems a bit silly to start with a male figure if that's really what they're doing.  Given that the females always sell better, shift more content overall and get more coverage/uncoverage/hype/attention, how would they gain any real insight into the market performance with the male figure?

Then again, if it's just down to the fine tuning of the figure itself, bug squashing and  the like, well, you'd hope they'd have that nailed before release.  Just like DAZ doesn't. :)

I'd understood Miki 4 is due out shortly too, no... as well as this new Tyler figure?

Personally, I really like Miki 3.... and I'm looking forward to seeing Miki 4.

;-)

Personally, I think the best thing Smith-Micro has going for it right now is V4. Yes, I realize V4 is a DAZ product, but since the introduction of Genesis and its incompatabilty with Poser and the sudden realization for we Poser users that V4 was a good as it was going to get, lots of vendors and capable parties have made considerable improvements to V4. The problem is, implementing the collection of improvements is expensive and confusing, some redundant, some working at cross purposes, some incompatable with others, etc. What if rather than Smith-Micro putting resources into new figures we are probably not going to like mostly becasue of the additional expense required for clothing and the like, why not put resources into optimizing the V4 and the M4 we already own and optimizing their compatability with Poser? Most of the "technology" is already out there, they just organize, maximize and blend it, so to speak, in some sort of Poser/V4 upgrade/compatability kit.

Also, I would like an emphasis on realism in renders, maybe even an export/ compatability with Lux, like DAZ has via Reality2. I already render in IDL, but that is not real enough for what I want.

As one of the many who do not do animation, I've always wondered how much the animation capabilities I do not use have added to my cost and how much in program capabilites I am sacrificing in order to make a single program more versatile. Maybe a Poser version for still picture and a Poser version for animators, each with optimized capabilities for its particular intent. 

Lastly, as a casual user (if $2,000 plus a year is casual) I would like some sort of newsletter on trends, changes and improvements in the Poser world. Most of what I get I glean from this forum and most of what is discussed in this forum is as if you are already in the know.

Just some thoughts frim the bleachers.

Quote - The problem is, implementing the collection of improvements is expensive and confusing, some redundant, some working at cross purposes, some incompatable with others, etc.

Curious - either you're unaware or you hate them.

V4-WM - weight mapped V4 - bends like it should - uses P9/PP2012 tech

EZSkin - renders like it should using SSS - P9/PP2012 tech - works with any texture

Both free. Did you know?

"As one of the many who do not do animation, I've always wondered how much the animation capabilities I do not use have added to my cost"

They have only added one "new" animation feature since the 1990's poser4   (animation layers).

I doubt posers vestigial animation tools have added to your cost in anyway.

Oh and I assume you do realize that some keyframe animation capability is required for cloth simulations.

Are you willing to give up Dynamic cloth as well?

Cheers

Quote - Also, I would like an emphasis on realism in renders, maybe even an export/ compatability with Lux, like DAZ has via Reality2. I already render in IDL, but that is not real enough for what I want.

Pose2Lux http://www.pose2lux.com/content/downloads

I think your missing the game from the bleachers.

I want Displacemnt painting, like the morph brush but doen't require the mesh.

I'd like, I think, the Materials library to have an add (i.e. blend) material function as well as the current change material button.

Is this possible to do... would it be practically possible... and am I right in thinking this is not possible from the Library at present??

Monkeycloud, but how would you mix it 50-50, 70-30, or by some other way?

I think the blender node, and copy paste maybe a better idea.