Quote - > Quote - Besides being summer, I think a big part of the reason you're not seeing many replies in the threads is that new posts don't bring the thread to the top, they quickly get pushed off the front page where people don't see them anymore. This is something DAZ really, really needs to get fixed.

Coldrake

This is true. I've gone to the Daz forums a total of two times since they changed them. And while I didn't go that often to begin with, I did go a lot more often than twice in a many month period...lol. I hope they do get that fixed.

Laurie

I can't believe that it wasn't set up properly to begin with, as I've NEVER seen a forum set up that way; what are the defaults for their Forum package??  It's just not worth the effort to try to plow through the topics looking for new posts, even with the compraratively sparce number.  If I happen across something interesting, I subscribe or I'll never find it again....

I like genesis. I like that I can buy one outfit and use it on just about any character I make. There are a lot of things about Daz Studio that I like and there are a lot of things about Poser 2012 and 9 that I like. But the Daz store needs more work as it's a pain to shop there. I have always liked the forums here, but have never really gone to the Daz forums much and now am even more inclined to stay away. I understand that they want to move away from Poser with the M5 and V5 but I think they are making a big mistake. Poser has kept Daz alive all these years and if they continue to push away the Poser users they won't have much left. Daz Studio and genesis will never be enough to keep them afloat in my humble opinion. I will continue to work in Studio and Poser but the cost of the plugins and the fact that they don't really have an upgrade path on most of them,the plugins, will probably drive me back to Poser.

Is that why you've been so quiet Marque? Gone to the dark side? LOL.

I'm just kidding...lol. I tried to use DS4 myself but I just couldn't get used to the interface. And the content part of it kept running even after I closed the program.  I'm hoping they fixed that. It's not only very rude but impacts resources I can't otherwise afford to lose.

Laurie

Oooooooooooooohhhhhhh! That's scarey talk!  lol

Just now getting back into this whole mess and it's become a tad intimidating. Trying to sort through all the new and force myself to get rid of old ideas  heh

It is not Daz that is in danger it is Poser. Smith Micro has to to come up with an answer to Genesis, if they succeed they will hang on otherwise not.

Actually many of the genesis "features" were already available in poser figures before.

Look at my PLUS sets at Daz which include things like baby FBMs, and other extreme body changes. All Daz really did was build  those options into a base figure, and enhance the possibilities with joint adjustment (which poser pro already has) and scaling enhancements, which SM has had on thier plate for some time, I think.

Geografting, applying alternate uv maps are pretty much the only features poser lacks, since wardrobe wizard covers fitting clothing.

Daz's biggest danger is Daz itself. LOL!

And how much ya wanna bet we see Genesis II within a year? Daz needs that bi yearly new major figure release to boost sales numbers.

why buy daz.. when you'll get it free later anyway, from them or on a magazine?

no point in paying is there.

"Actually many of the genesis "features" were already available in poser figures before."

I don't think that people really understand the difference.

It is not that V5/M5 are beautiful character even if they are, It isn't because of excellent weight mapping even if it is, it isn't about subdivision that open up a the whole game market. It is not because is much easier to make conforming clothing (anyone can do it). It is because you as a vendor only have to create one set of cloth for a whole range of characters. And all V4/M4 characters can very easily be used, not only on Genesis base figure but all the derived characters from it.

There you have a powerful concept.

and Vintorix, we could do that anyway using the clothroom. just because few did it, did not mean it couldn't be done. you can actually move outfits from V to M to etc. just no one could be bothered.

been there. done that. worn the shirt.

i wonder if daz has decided to start their split from being more aimed towards poser and more towards their own software, and who can blame them, if you look at the daz studio forum and gallery you will notice alot of people use it.im not sore that they are supporting poser less,i think this was going to happen anyway. i can see more poser users removing their daz memberships and daz studios differences being greater in the future to make poser and daz3d content even more incompatible. good luck to them. i do hope that smith micro do justice to poser and do more for poser rather than relying on their customers and sites like renderosity to improve the poser experience.ie daz seam to do alot more for ds after its initial release than smith micro do for poser, im sure i will probably be stoned by the poser fanatics for this post,lol.

"im sure i will probably be stoned by the poser fanatics for this post,lol."

well that went a long way to make sure of that did'nt it?

The cloth room? I don't know how many years it has gone without update. More likely it has never been updated as it was a package that they bought from a third party. No one at SM understand a quota of it. That is my guess.

..and your guess would be 100% wrong, since they've optimised it several times over the years.

Plus you are discounting wardrobe wizard as well.

In other words, you have horse blins on to anything except Daz Studio, which is folly.

Never give your loayalty to any band or any company, because neither will return it.

Yes, Daz Studio does have some amazing features I use myself, and poser does as well.

To answer vinnie, all SM has to do is continue to make software that works, is fairly easy to navigate, and has documentation and bug fixes.  This will place them several light years ahead of daz without needing another new figure. And SM is a lot more than just Poser. 

I'd have to check, but I believe it's been at least four months since I've gotten anything from DAZ beyond pulling down 4.5 or whatever the number is now, and that was just to check the DL speed, got a new connection.  I don't check the daz store, too much wading through the genesis stuff trying to find something for the gen 3 or 4 characters that might be interesting.  Dropped PC months ago, I was buying nothing and didn't need the constant drain on my CC. 

I have Cararra, Bryce, Hex, DS4pro, but i've pulled them all out of my computers.  Don't know what the programmers problems are, but instability  and crashes aren't going to convince me to try them again. 

But daz going exclusively with the gene stuff, the equivalent of standing behind a recoilless rifle and pulling the lanyard.  (for those that don't know, the recoilless rifle is closer to a rocket than a gun, the propellent exhaust comes out the back, standing behind it is a good way to commit suicide.)

As far as the daz website,  I don't go there anymore, first, too confusing, second, too hard to read for me.  Might be fixes for that somewhere, but I'm not interested in finding them.

D.

Quote - The cloth room? I don't know how many years it has gone without update. More likely it has never been updated as it was a package that they bought from a third party. No one at SM understand a quota of it. That is my guess.

 

 

 

 

You just told me you might have tried it once, maybe with P5, and couldn't get along with it.  I have no problems, and I can see the improvements that have been made.  Enough that I don't use conforming now, probably about 95% dynamic. 

If you want to talk about someone not understanding, DS and optitex might be a far better example.  Still no creation tools?  Why not?  Dead end.

D.

Quote - The cloth room? I don't know how many years it has gone without update. More likely it has never been updated as it was a package that they bought from a third party. No one at SM understand a quota of it. That is my guess.

 

I know it was acquired - but where do you get the inside knowledge that it has never been updated or developers not understanding one quota of it?

As one who uses the cloth room pretty heavily, let me assure you... it has been improved pretty much with each release of Poser since 6 (which is where I started with the program.) It is far more stable now, and works much faster.

Those who have trouble with CR typically don't understand that you first have to make sure there is no poke-thru. Do that, and it pretty well works with no hitches.

Yeah, I have no problems whatsoever with the cloth room nor do I think that SM knows nothing about it. They cover what each function does in the manual and what they don't cover is covered by those in the community that use it.

Laurie

The cloth room has definitely been improved. Most (if not all) the bugs I reported have been fixed. Features have been added as well. I just wanted to point out that it was a nonsense remark

You mean like this?

In the first image, I have a V4 piece of clothing - The Courageous Outfit for V4.  Going from left to right - V4, V3, Kez, Sydney, Anastasia, Miki 2.

In the second image - I have a M4 piece of clothing (with the V4 to show the differences is uniform design) - The Valiant outfit for M4. The males from left to right - M4, M3, Apollo Maximus, Rikishi and Kelvin. - The best part - notice how the non-DAZ characters do not have the "macaroni" shoulders that the DAZ characters have.

Yes, being able to put any piece of clothing on any character is a powerful concept - One which we have had in the Poser world since the Poser 6 timeframe.  And we can do it with any character that has either Wardrobe Wizard or Xdresser support.  Genesis requires us to purchase genesis specific clothing or deal with autofit all of which only works to put older clothing on genesis.

One other thing to note.  Genesis clothing may go on male or female figures, but so far, the unisex clothing has been cut for females.  There is a reason that Town & Country for Genesis, the male is always wearing a tie - the buttons are on the same side as a female shirt.  On the Farm for Genesis has the pants cut at a capri length - fine for females, but give off a "Deliverance" smell for the men.

"..but where do you get the inside knowledge that it has never been updated or developers not understanding one quota of it?"

Because I compare it to how dynamic cloth simulations stands to day. One of the hottest technologies around with hundreds of companies in the world exploring it.

Quote - "..but where do you get the inside knowledge that it has never been updated or developers not understanding one quota of it?"

Because I compare it to how dynamic cloth simulations stands to day. One of the hottest technologies around with hundreds of companies in the world exploring it.

 

 

So it was a nonsense remark

Yanno vintorix if Poser had all the features of your beloved Marvelous Designer in it, it would be twice the price. For Poser purposes, the cloth room works just fine. It was never made to create the clothing as MD does. Besides, you can still get something you made from MD into Poser EASILY as opposed to DS which doesn't do cloth simulation on it's own (a plugin is needed I think). You also cannot make your own cloth and import it into DS's plugin, unless I've missed something. You need to buy the cloth from Optitex which, for me, is a huge black mark against DS. I'm perfectly capable of making my own clothing and Poser is the only program that allows me to use it.

Now, what was the original thread topic?

Laurie

I was getting ready to say... we are getting pretty far afield from the OP's question. The merits of Poser vs DS4 have been discussed endlessly, and they always end with locked threads.

Let's drop that part of the discussion (NOW) and return to the OP's issues, as LaurieA suggests.

Hello!

Even if Genesic si a very good idea and concept I returned to Poser and will not renew my PC membership( PC member since 2003).

The reason is the rendertime. Even if the final result seems to be near (in the forums) , Daz is very slow and I'n not sure that reality is a response for that (and it seem that the Poser'version will soon be availiable). Perhaps I don't know how to use DS (I have used it for the early times and bought DS4 advanced but as an alternative) but my poser renders are faster and better.

Now for me I don't like the interface of DS , changes are not easy to learn for the textures and if the software is often updated . The plugs are slowly upgraded (if you don't have to pay  for it).

Poser seems to me more intuitive.

And I don't want to buy again an outfit fo V4 I already own.

That my opinion

I just quit the Platinum Club. I use Poser, and Daz Studio would not work on my PC for some reason and Daz would not help me. I'm sticking with V4, plus I have older characters that I have hardly used. Daz's new web site sucks. I got an ad saying there was  a sale on Martin Frost, and when I clicked the link it took me to a Daz under construction page. It will be under construction and the sale will end. Duh? I do not buy anything from Daz anymore. I stick to rendo. So they lost my busines because Genesis is not working in Poser. Oh, well. Rendo has plenty for M4 and V4.

Quote - I was getting ready to say... we are getting pretty far afield from the OP's question. The merits of Poser vs DS4 have been discussed endlessly, and they always end with locked threads.

Let's drop that part of the discussion (NOW) and return to the OP's issues, as LaurieA suggests.

Basicwiz, I have to disagree with you on this.  Whereas the merits of Poser vs. DS4 have been discussed ad nausem, they do apply directly to the OP question.

One simply can't talk about genesis features without talking about DS4 - the technologies are directly tied into each other, just like MicroSoft integrated Internet Exploder into Windows.

Genesis isn't a figure, it is a mesh platform for DS4.  Getting the genesis out of DS4 into Poser (or Cararra) is a fair bit of work.  It only works well in DS4 and it is perfectly reasonable for anyone who uses genesis to discuss how the features of the program and the character platform are tightly integrated - that was deliberately planned.

The Poser community and DAZ have come up with different ways to solve the same problem - Clothing for multiple figures.  Some people prefer the "one size fits all" approach that DS4 takes, and if you are new to this, it makes a lot of sense, both from the financial side and the learning curve.  Others prefer the more flexable approach that WW or Xdresser brings to the table.

Hell, I have absolutely no use for DS4, but I do see the advantages. I hate, hate hate the color scheme and GUI, but I have seen some nifty ideas in that GUI.  And I wouldn't mind adding it to my (growing) arsenal of tools.

What I also see is that DAZ has continued to botch the execution (like all of their software) with a DS4 that is half completed, and a very, very naked power grab that the "leadership" at DAZ thought would be eagerly accepted by the Poser community.  When that didn't happen, DAZ's corporate ego won't allow them to admit that they screwed the pooch and come up with a plan B.

The vendors have spoken and declared genesis a failure.  We can clearly see that based on the lack of genesis content outside of a semi-functional DAZ store.

If the vendors feel that genesis is a failure, then they won't develop for genesis, and it will go the way of earlier non-mainstream characters.

The interesting question is what is going to happen at the DAZ store when genesis reaches the V4 level of impractical armor and hookerware - Because of how genesis is designed, there is nowhere to go.

From my perspective, it appears that DAZ would much rather have a stranglehold on a much smaller DS4 market than have a majority of the Poser/DS market. Which makes sense if you look at the company's control issues.

Quote -
In the first image, I have a V4 piece of clothing - The Courageous Outfit for V4.  Going from left to right - V4, V3, Kez, Sydney, Anastasia, Miki 2.

To go just about completely OT;

ssgbryan, did you use the K plugin to convert clothes to KEZ?

"The vendors have spoken and declared genesis a failure."

It is interesting to note that someone is trying to turn the biggest success that ever has happened in the poser universe to a failure. Someone is obviously nervous here, for some reason.

Quote - "The vendors have spoken and declared genesis a failure."

It is interesting to note that someone is trying to turn the biggest success that ever has happened in the poser universe to a failure. Someone is obviously nervous here, for some reason.

It's certainly too soon to decide success or failure; wait a year, which will be about the midpoint of the Genesis I life cycle, based on past DAZ figures' histories...

EDIT ...and now that I think about it, likely the imminent arrival of Poser 10 and PP 2014...

Quote - "The vendors have spoken and declared genesis a failure."

It is interesting to note that someone is trying to turn the biggest success that ever has happened in the poser universe to a failure. Someone is obviously nervous here, for some reason.

 

You have a strange notion of the "biggest success that has ever happened in the poser universe" since it does not work in the poser universe - at least not the portions which would make it great.

Quote - > Quote -

In the first image, I have a V4 piece of clothing - The Courageous Outfit for V4.  Going from left to right - V4, V3, Kez, Sydney, Anastasia, Miki 2.

 

To go just about completely OT;

ssgbryan, did you use the K plugin to convert clothes to KEZ?

Yes, Yes I did.  It works perfectly - from what I can tell, the changes from K to KEZ were internal.  I haven't tried it on the weight mapped version yet, but it is on my list of things to test.

Quote - > Quote - "The vendors have spoken and declared genesis a failure."

It is interesting to note that someone is trying to turn the biggest success that ever has happened in the poser universe to a failure. Someone is obviously nervous here, for some reason.

 

You have a strange notion of the "biggest success that has ever happened in the poser universe" since it does not work in the poser universe - at least not the portions which would make it great.

 

Not even sure you could describe it as the biggest success in the Daz world either...it may be but for most rational people the jury is still out which is probably what prompted the original question of this thread.

Wether it is called a success or a failure doesnt really matter.

What matters is that it does give some unique opportunities to a market that has really been pushed as far as it could with how unique of characters could be made from an individual mesh.

While that may not be important to some people, to others it brings in a whole new life for development.

No, it's not the be all and end all, and neither is ds4 or poser the be all and end all in the software of this kind. They each offer their own uses. But what is good is that people can adopt whatever one they need for their own uses and still have a market available for what they decide to produce for.

It is pointless to argue which is better or worse, because it really is up to personal tastes. I still use both interchangably depending on what I need done. I don't have any desire to change peoples opinions to my own, and i know people wont change mine LOL...what changes my opinion is simply what I can do with either, and that is what makes it more or less usefull TO ME.

Quote - Wether it is called a success or a failure doesnt really matter.

What matters is that it does give some unique opportunities to a market that has really been pushed as far as it could with how unique of characters could be made from an individual mesh. 

You are right and the original question was not about success or failure of Genesis but if it was hurting Daz.  There are a lot of people who seem to feel Daz is being hurt but not because of Genesis alone.  I agree that it is pointless to argue over which is best, they are now quite different and it would appear that this trend will continue.  

Things have changed and that is the way of the world. That does not stop some of us who were long term customers of Daz feeling sad that we are no longer customers because there is little of interest there.  It is a bit like finding out you favorite pub is under new management and all that made it you favorite pub has been replaced by stuff that does not appeal.  Of course you find another pub but that does not prevent the feeling of sadness because something that gave you pleasure has gone, and seemingly forever.

It is not only Daz and Poser. There are 3 program that can handle poser-files, Poser, Daz and C4D. The Cinema plugin Interposer does 90% of what Daz/Poser can do, and much what they cannot. It is especially strong in animation. Regardless what program you work with you think "Poser files", "Daz-files" would be ridiculous. Poser is on its way to become a generic term like xerox. 

The guy who did Interposer is now hired by Daz to do Genesis. It will be interesting to see if they will do a separate program for Genesis or one program for both.

Quote - > Quote -

To go just about completely OT;

ssgbryan, did you use the K plugin to convert clothes to KEZ?

Yes, Yes I did.  It works perfectly - from what I can tell, the changes from K to KEZ were internal.  I haven't tried it on the weight mapped version yet, but it is on my list of things to test.

You likely can convert clothing from KEZ to KEZ WM using Poser Place's Outfitter.

Thanx for the info. 

Well alot of changes have taken place at DAZ over the last year, and there are still more changes coming.

I myself am not happy with alot of the changes, and have had my share of exchanges with daz to that regard.

But the fact that changes are still going on, and whatever the situation is now, doesnt mean it will be that way 6 months from now. All people have to do is keep an open mind.

It is tiring to hear "oh so and so did this or that...so I will never go there again", when really, its only a store...a place to buy products for making art. The sensible thing is to see if there are any products that would help your art in this store or that store and if the product appeals to you, then buy it. The politics of what people believe a store to represent is ridiculous. In the end, if you need or like a product, then you should simply buy it.

I will never understand people not shopping somewhere out of principle, like their not shopping there will really make a difference. Because it really doesnt. There are always new people coming in to buy where others leave. The only ones they hurt is themselves for cutting off their nose to spite their face by refusing to buy stuff that could really help them make better art. But again, its not my place to change their opinions. If they feel what they are doing is good for them, then fine, more power to them.

But in the real world, it really is all about products.....what products do you need to make what images you need. That should really be the deciding factor in anything.

I know I will keep making the products I like, and I hope people will keep buying them. Not out of politics, or even wether they like me myself or not.....but just because they think they are cool, and know I will always put my best into them.

Success only comes when people try their best. DAZ is trying, Smith Micro is trying, both will grow as they will. Success will only be measured from the future, looking back at what they did. Right now we are all just in the middle of the game, trying to do the best we can.

Rawn

I still think it would be in Daz' best interest to make a compatible figure for Poser. They could still continue to have the best of both worlds ;).

Laurie

Quote - It is not only Daz and Poser. There are 3 program that can handle poser-files, Poser, Daz and C4D. The Cinema plugin Interposer does 90% of what Daz/Poser can do, and much what they cannot. It is especially strong in animation. Regardless what program you work with you think "Poser files", "Daz-files" would be ridiculous. Poser is on its way to become a generic term like xerox. 

The guy who did Interposer is now hired by Daz to do Genesis. It will be interesting to see if they will do a separate program for Genesis or one program for both.

Are you annoying on purpose or does it just come naturally? I don't think Poser is going anywhere any time soon.

Laurie

Quote - But in the real world, it really is all about products.....what products do you need to make what images you need. That should really be the deciding factor in anything.

Well said, Rawn...

Quote -  

I will never understand people not shopping somewhere out of principle, like their not shopping there will really make a difference. Because it really doesnt. There are always new people coming in to buy where others leave. The only ones they hurt is themselves for cutting off their nose to spite their face by refusing to buy stuff that could really help them make better art. But again, its not my place to change their opinions. If they feel what they are doing is good for them, then fine, more power to them.

 

Rawn

On the whole I agree with you and the reason I do not shop at Daz at present because there is nothing there that I want/need that  iahve not already purchased.

On the wider issue there are places where I will not shop on principle and I know that  my decision has no impact on the company but I sleep just a little easier in bed at night.  There are also companies I do not invest in, do they miss my money - not one bit but I do not want to see workers abused so I can make a quick buck.  It may be a strange outlook life but I am happy with it.

my 0.02 on the original OP question comes from the Poser History chapter in my own tutorials collection (http://www.book.artbeeweb.nl/?p=526). Just check it out, I'm not going to quote my own works.

For short: Genesis / DS is just the next step in a consistent DAZ strategie which started off in say year 2000 or so, and introduced the (V3M3S3) UniMesh geometries in the first place. DAZ aims at the games /apps / virtual life markets which are expected to meet the retail markets within a few years from now, thanks to MS kinetix etcetera.

Look at http://www.daz3d.com/shop/commercial-game-developer-license/ or just type "license" in their search field. Make up your mind, it's there for a reason. You won't find anything like that at SM.

Poser on the other hand serves a different market: that of art and illustration / animation support, ranging from manga to adult stuff to movie scene pre-staging / storyboarding to legal case support. And anything alike.

The point is: being "Poser compatible" is not the default any more. Some people seem to have trouble absorbing that. I'm sorry.

And yes, the SM development team has found and opened the door to Cloth Room, and they are making adjustments. Gradually, it's complex legacy stuff. To my knowledge, Poser Cloth Room is about the only (affordable) tool that can turn any external 3D mesh of any structure into a cloth object and run simulations on it, for better of worse. And can handle hybrid conforming/dynamic stuff, and can handle dynamic hair and scarfs colliding in the wind. Most programs can only run sims onto cloth items created in their own tailor shop. Fine, but different.

Just my opinion that is.

Quote -
For short: Genesis / DS is just the next step in a consistent DAZ strategie which started off in say year 2000 or so, and introduced the (V3M3S3) UniMesh geometries in the first place. DAZ aims at the games /apps / virtual life markets which are expected to meet the retail markets within a few years from now, thanks to MS kinetix etcetera.

Look at http://www.daz3d.com/shop/commercial-game-developer-license/ or just type "license" in their search field. Make up your mind, it's there for a reason. You won't find anything like that at SM.

Just because there is a game license does not mean that games are their target market.

Most products made and sold through daz are no where near game ready.

Yes it would be nice if the products could be also used in games through the lisence, but that is only something to expand the market into, not to focus exclusively on.

Thats like saying because Ford has made an electric car that they will no longer be focusing on their deisel trucks LOL

Rawn

Going back to the original discussion, it isn't Gene that's killing daz it is that daz is unwilling to adapt to the current market conditions.  Take windows 8, it has a lot of cool features but MS wants to pull an apple and lock down what can be loaded onto windows. 

In other words only using a "windows store".  People like Notch and Valve's Gabe Newell are both on record for saying this will kill 3rd party development for windows 8 if it happens.  Steam is looking to start supporting linux and it wouldn't surprise me if a Steambox gets more people wanting it.

Quote - I still think it would be in Daz' best interest to make a compatible figure for Poser. They could still continue to have the best of both worlds ;).

Laurie

But someone already did a WMed V4...

Quote - It is not only Daz and Poser. There are 3 program that can handle poser-files, Poser, Daz and C4D. The Cinema plugin Interposer does 90% of what Daz/Poser can do, and much what they cannot. It is especially strong in animation. Regardless what program you work with you think "Poser files", "Daz-files" would be ridiculous. Poser is on its way to become a generic term like xerox. 

The guy who did Interposer is now hired by Daz to do Genesis. It will be interesting to see if they will do a separate program for Genesis or one program for both.

 

 

There are lots of programs which can read poser files - all of them have in common that they read and write files which are compatible with Poser. Genesis/DS4 files are not part of that world since only DS4 can read and write them

Quote - Look at http://www.daz3d.com/shop/commercial-game-developer-license/ or just type "license" in their search field. Make up your mind, it's there for a reason. You won't find anything like that at SM.

Not quite true; Poser Pro from the beginning has included redistributable male and female meshes.  However, AFAIK, the only real commercial use of them has been by Phil Cooke to create figures for Poser...

As usual, I pretty much agree with Rawnrr, and yep, its way too early in the game to tell if genesis has hurt Daz. I'd say DAZ's own bungles hurt them far more than Genesis ever could.

 BTW, Ron.. Is Rawnrr the reduced res verion of Rawn? Have you lost weight?

Quote - As usual, I pretty much agree with Rawnrr, and yep, its way too early in the game to tell if genesis has hurt Daz. I'd say DAZ's own bungles hurt them far more than Genesis ever could.

 BTW, Ron.. Is Rawnrr the reduced res verion of Rawn? Have you lost weight?

 

Rawnrr is what I went under when I first signed up here well over a decade ago . I think "Rawn" was taken already, so I just added my other initials at the end.