Agree that the concept of Genesis is good, but the execution and marketing tactics .....  I think V4WM and V3WM (if she ever comes along) are a better idea and implementation.

Has Daz released a manual for Daz Stuido 4 Pro yet? (I'm amazed that a software company could maintain an attitude of "Who needs manuals?") I'm one of the folks they suckered into buying early, without documentation, only to see the software released as a freebie (still with no documentation) some months later. I hate the interface, all cluttered and ugly, with the tools that play hide and seek. I don't think Genesis is the ultimate mesh that will replace every other.

In any case, I'm bracing myself for “Poser heaven”, coming soon from Daz. Daz makes good stuff. It's just that I'm done buying a bunch of things I'll never use.

all i want is a poser figure whos hands and feet dont resemble those of a muppet lol

I havem`t kept up with the muppets. Do they have feet now?

I can't see this as being more than another over-hyped promise which will eventually fall far short of anyone's expectations.  There were a lot of assurances last year about Poser users being valued customers and things being in the works to get Genesis into Poser.  At that time I decided to give Daz the benefit of the doubt and stay in the pc for another 3 months.  I ended up giving them an extra 6 months before I left.

I can't say that I'd never go back to Daz, but this is going to have to be really something special - as others have stated, it needs to be a 1-click solution in Poser.  If I have to install and load DS4 then it's a no-go for me.

Add to that the fact that I've missed out on all the offers on Genesis add-ons over the past year (the various body shapes etc), along with some of the add-ons being time-limited and then removed from the store.  I'm not prepared to buy them all at full price now and it's a situation where Daz will have to do some great marketing deals to get me to use Genesis.

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing what SM come up with next month.

I've been around CGI since Poser 4 ,1998 along time.
Not taking sides You can use what ever CGI App you want.
Me I get borred and use defrent ones.
over the years I've used them all.
6 pages and we only talked about Pser and D/S
What about the rest of them ?

There has always been a gap between Main app's like Lightwave ,Max ,Maya ,C4D.

and Poser & D/S V3 ,V4

In main app's like Lightwave ,C4D ,Max ,Maya.
The rule is model 100% quads .
Charactors poly count will be around 20,000.
Good rigs

V3 Modeled in Lightwave ,had polycount 60,000 & triangles ,bad rigs in Poser & D/S no good for Lightwave ,C4D ,Max ect ect

V4 Modeled in Modo was 100% quads but hadd a polycount 60,000 ,bad rigs in Poser and D/S no good for C4D ,Max ect ect.

V5 has Good Rigs ,Desent polycount ,100% quads. She works in C4D ,Max ect ect.

V5 First mesh ever thay came from the Poser & D/S comunity that works in all the main app's.C4D ,Max ect ect

Yeah, That "coming Soon!" documentation thing at Daz IS very strange.  would be nice to have up to date documentation that covers new features in their software. I don't know, I was out of the whole Poser loop for like 4 years (long story on that one) so now I'm like a kid in a candy store.

You know I am just now downloading Antonia Polygon! Wow! I mean, a female poser model that has genitals that don't look like RajDarge's Gspot for V4! AND she doesn't look like a mannikin who's been stretched on the rack! What novelty! I'm dying to ask questions about Antonia but I realize this is such old news for everyone else. I'll have to be content with reading all of the old threads on that figure, I guess. Genesis who?

V4 was modeled in Modo? Always wondered who actually created that mesh.

@ RorrKonn... Actually I did mention Carrara earlier, although that's not as fancy as the apps you've mentioned. One thing that puzzles me, and this may be just an artistic perspective, is why more people that use poser don't make their own props and such... I can understand complex figures... but just simple things. I mean, I can upload the most basic poser prop to the free stuff and it will be downloaded 100's of times. Why don't people just get a copy of Wings and make such things themselves? Alright, sorry about changing the subject. Back to that Genesis thingy.

*Quote -*I've been around CGI since Poser 4 ,1998 along time.
Not taking sides You can use what ever CGI App you want.
Me I get borred and use defrent ones.
over the years I've used them all.
6 pages and we only talked about Pser and D/S
What about the rest of them ?

There has always been a gap between Main app's like Lightwave ,Max ,Maya ,C4D.

and Poser & D/S V3 ,V4

In main app's like Lightwave ,C4D ,Max ,Maya.
The rule is model 100% quads .
Charactors poly count will be around 20,000.
Good rigs

V3 Modeled in Lightwave ,had polycount 60,000 & triangles ,bad rigs in Poser & D/S no good for Lightwave ,C4D ,Max ect ect

V4 Modeled in Modo was 100% quads but hadd a polycount 60,000 ,bad rigs in Poser and D/S no good for C4D ,Max ect ect.

V5 has Good Rigs ,Desent polycount ,100% quads. She works in C4D ,Max ect ect.

V5 First mesh ever thay came from the Poser & D/S comunity that works in all the main app's.C4D ,Max ect ect

The most sensible post of these 6 pages.

Less Poly's but better rigs and textures.
When will the "BIG 2" finally understand???????????????????????????????

Antonia was modeled in wings by ODF.as a hobby took him years.

If you went to C4D,Max ect ect forum and hired someone to model Antonia it would be done in a week.

Takes time to get the exspearance to model,map a table.
Guess if your a hobbyist that has a full time job and kids .who has the time.

and where the hell is the spell checker at ?

Quote - I mean, I can upload the most basic poser prop to the free stuff and it will be downloaded 100's of times. Why don't people just get a copy of Wings and make such things themselves?

Because it's difficult.  I tried Wings and could not do anything with it.  Just could not wrap my head around it.  I've got a degree in engineering and am trained in using CAD programs, so I'm not unfamiliar with tech stuff, but I couldn't figure out Wings. 

I've tried many other modeling programs, free and not.  The only one I had any luck with was Anim8or.  I do occasionally make simple props with Anim8or, but I'm not very good at it, and I don't find it particularly fun or interesting. Then there's the texturing.

If I can download it for free, or buy it for a reasonable price, I'd much rather do that.

The hobby user.

Poser has a lot of hobby users.

They have an average of ONE free hr a day to "do" something in/for/around  Poser.

Spend that time on ?????????
And tomorrow ??
They"ll start with a fresh screen.

If you make your figure/model too big, too large, too complicated?
Forget it.

If your clothing does not fit the first second?
Forget it.

If they have to spend hrs to get a bad rig right?
Forget it.

They "only" have some hobby money to spend. Most survive on free stuff.
If you can not build a quality reputation with your free stuff?
Forget it.

JCM's, hidden bones, hidden geometry? Hidden anything?
Forget it.

If Poser want to stay a 3D for the home user.
It is more then time to go BTB.
Back To Basics is some critical area's.

I see lots of people go.
And that hurts.

I see lots of users struggle.
And that hurts.

I see lots of people asking the same and same questions over and over again.
Does that not ring a bell????

Poser is too low end for the professionals.
But it's becoming way to complicated for the poor lonesome home hobby user.
And they move on to something else.

I posted a free Hexagon tutorial for Poser.
Even that simple and free way to build characters has become too complicated.

Or does "creativity" end with some blind-minded dial spinning?

Is that really all that is left?

Then the end is near my friends.

There is not "one" hobby user. Some like to tinker with everything, some like to model, some want to (re)create scenes, some want to make art, some use it to create stories, some to illustrate and some just like to do load, click and render.  That has been the case for a very long time and has not changed at all.

Poser caters to all of them

Amnesia runs amuck. Genesis In Poser GiP (feel free to use the homophonic pun if it makes you feel better), GiP was always the plan. DAZ made overtures to SM and SM declined - remember, like WWII, it was in all the papers. What form that GiP would have taken I don't know, but I assume that if it required SM's cooperation, the integration would have been pretty tight. 'Poser Heaven' is Plan B. No doubt defections and torchlight pitchfork conventions may have added incentive but ... If you think that they ever intended to give up a lucrative market, please pass the joint. What form GiP v.2.0 will take, I don't know. DAZ has certainly heard from enough Poser users (at least the crowd here) that they'd sooner poke hot needles in their eyes than use DS. It may be a plugin or a standalone importer, who the hell knows except them. Maybe they'll simply start releasing traditional figures and morphpacks based on Genesis (though that may be Plan C). Putting all of the Genesis functionality in a plugin seems pretty daunting. They're doing Genesis for Carrara, but they own that code. Whatever it is, I agree with Laurie, if it's good enough, people will use it. In the long run, The dead enders who prefer purity over practicality probably won't amount to a rounding error in the bottom line.

Quote - ...
6 pages and we only talked about Pser and D/S
What about the rest of them ?

Uhhh...because the thread is about Genesis in Poser and it would be nice to stay on topic??

Laurie

@ Vilters,

Have to check out your hex tutorial, that it app isn't in my "workflow" as they say... I think we discussed this before. although I do have it.

@RorrKonn, I have a full time job. Of course it takes me forever to finish anything. I've been working on 2 projects for months now. It's EASY to make a table and map it, you could do it in a matter of hours. Wings 3D is EASY. I was a sculpture major in school but I used to hang out at the computer lab alot, I would mention that I liked Poser to the Maya snobs in there and they would totally turn their noses up. Fact is though, about 70% of them couldn't SCULPT to save their lives. Just because someone knows all the nooks and crannies of an $5,000 app doesn't automatically convey artistic talent onto that person. It's really a shame that more CG artists don't seem to have a better core art training background. Anyway, Genesis who?

Sorry, think I had a Troll moment there.

ROFL

primorge... that doesn't even BEGIN to rise to trolling. You'll have to do far better than that before you get a warning from ME! (And don't any of the masters already here go and teach him! He seems like a nice guy!)

Agree with ssgbryan about clothing.

If there's something I like/need then I'm not too bothered about which figure it's for so long as there's a CrossDresser licence for it. With XD and the Poser morphing tool I can make most clothing shareable between even wildly different figures without much trouble.

Quote - Has Daz released a manual for Daz Stuido 4 Pro yet? (I'm amazed that a software company could maintain an attitude of "Who needs manuals?") I'm one of the folks they suckered into buying early, without documentation, only to see the software released as a freebie (still with no documentation) some months later. I hate the interface, all cluttered and ugly, with the tools that play hide and seek. I don't think Genesis is the ultimate mesh that will replace every other.

In any case, I'm bracing myself for “Poser heaven”, coming soon from Daz. Daz makes good stuff. It's just that I'm done buying a bunch of things I'll never use.

The last time I asked that question on the DAZ forums the post was deleted and the moderators sent me a nastygram accusing me of disrupting a commercial thread - so my guess would be no.

Quote - However, like I said, Genesis is great for my needs, I love rendering and creating all sort of creatures, monsters and were-beasts, so the ability to morph those creatures and make them male or female, adult or child, it's something I can't do with Gen4 figures without a lot of work (texture conversion, morph injection hacks, clothing conversion, etc).

Multiple UV mapping is great, geografting is great (I've been redering four armed creatures since I have Poser and only on Genesis arms can truly blend with the rest of the body without postwork). As much as I love WM-V4, she can do none of that :(

So yes, I can, and have, lived without Genesis, but I can't hide my excitement on the posibility of getting such a versatile figure inside my favorite application.

I understand however, how someone who renders regular human characters would be a lot less excited about it, since Genesis doesn't offer that much more on that front, it's just another figure, and there's some great alternatives out there.

I understand what you are saying here, however, what everyone seems to forget is that most of the these features are part of the SOFTWARE not part of the figure. Without a rewrite of Poser to conform to Daz file structure, and inclusion of DAZ Studio functions, most of this won't be available in a Genesis FIGURE made to run natively in Poser. So then what's the big deal? To get these functions you'll still have to use genesis in DAZ Studio to create the custom figure and convert any custom figures to Poser format. Just how do those four armed figures and geografted parts convert over to Poser now?

The geografted parts come over as conforming figures. What is missing is the modified geometry in genesis - the part where to two meshes meld

With some parts it wouldn't matter to much because the blending effect can be achieved with textures, but other parts are much more difficult

In working with genesis in poser, I found that there are much more basic features which need to be handled before geografting comes into play. Clothing with the basic genesis figure works pretty much OK. But when you start to use morphs like V5,M5 and S5, there is much more pokethrough and some of these are not easily solved with the morphbrush or magnets - think of armpits.

I also discovered that some of the morphs deviate so much from the standard genesis mesh, that the mesh distortion in the base mesh makes it impossible to correct it with smoothing in poser. Example here are the knees in S5 which are a disaster in poser

I hope that whatever DAZ is promoting now will tackle those problems as well, otherwise it won't be used much

ha-ha-ha-
You all know, myself included, ha-ha-, that we "again" spend 6 pages on a hype????

Thay might, or might not, perhaps, if at all , come in a distant soon, somewhere this century???

Where is my coffee, and my chocolate :-)

Quote - ha-ha-ha-
You all know, myself included, ha-ha-, that we "again" spend 6 pages on a hype????

Thay might, or might not, perhaps, if at all , come in a distant soon, somewhere this century???

Where is my coffee, and my chocolate :-)

Then why read and post?

Some people are interested in this

Interested, yes.

And... since we are talking in another forum of their products, at least we can say what we think without the fear to be deleted, as ssgbryan said, but always with a bit of respect.

Said that, I'm not able to see what kind of benefits we can really have using Genesis in Poser, it's just another figure.

At least for me, I said this also on their forum, the old: I don't use monsters, aliens and other creatures, I'm interested in new tecnology, always, but if it's something I can use.

If this tecnology is useful for someone, well, welcome, for me no.

Quote - I also discovered that some of the morphs deviate so much from the standard genesis mesh, that the mesh distortion in the base mesh makes it impossible to correct it with smoothing in poser. Example here are the knees in S5 which are a disaster in poser 

Knees? That's interesting.  I kinda think of all knees being pretty much the same.  Why would they be a problem?  Just not enough polys for Poser?

Because I am interested too.
She has a nice poly count, and exellent poly distribution.
At least; That is the one thing they got right.

But too many speculations lead to too high expectations that are pretty hard to fullfill.

As you know all too well, Genesis is a system.
And all these build in functions will be very hard to transfer.

Some will.
Some won't.

I wrote before, I would welcome a Genesis in Poser.
But I became quite realistic about what to expect.

And frankly, I do not like "hypes" as a sales argument. 

Build it first, then show it.

Yes have a look at this:

I respect vilters opinion.. but I call BS on this post.  All these 'forget its' have been standard fare on the main figures that all the 'hobby' users have been gobbling up since the beginning.  I agree from an elegance standpoint a lot of those 'forget its' are nice, and you can certainly appreciate a quality mesh and rig, but most of those are circumvented with the primary thing the 1 hour a day hobby users needs and wants.... Available pre-sets, poses and other content.  The 1 hour a day user doesnt know or care how complex the figure's rigging is, so long as they have a set of poses that makes the posed figure look the way they want.  Does the 1 hour a day care about quads or tris or poly count or topology... for the most part I'd say no.  They care about how their renders come out and if the pre-sets asre available to click-load-render something nice then the complexity/quality of the figure that gets them theres doesn't matter.  Are helper bones, jcms or magnets 'forget about its' to the average poser user.. of course not, because they are generally automatic and the basic user has no need to play with them at all.  A nice looking bend looks the same in a render no matter how it gets made.

Quote - The hobby user.

Poser has a lot of hobby users.

They have an average of ONE free hr a day to "do" something in/for/around  Poser.

Spend that time on ?????????
And tomorrow ??
They"ll start with a fresh screen.

If you make your figure/model too big, too large, too complicated?
Forget it.

If your clothing does not fit the first second?
Forget it.

If they have to spend hrs to get a bad rig right?
Forget it.

They "only" have some hobby money to spend. Most survive on free stuff.
If you can not build a quality reputation with your free stuff?
Forget it.

JCM's, hidden bones, hidden geometry? Hidden anything?
Forget it.

If Poser want to stay a 3D for the home user.
It is more then time to go BTB.
Back To Basics is some critical area's.

I see lots of people go.
And that hurts.

I see lots of users struggle.
And that hurts.

I see lots of people asking the same and same questions over and over again.
Does that not ring a bell????

Poser is too low end for the professionals.
But it's becoming way to complicated for the poor lonesome home hobby user.
And they move on to something else.

I posted a free Hexagon tutorial for Poser.
Even that simple and free way to build characters has become too complicated.

Or does "creativity" end with some blind-minded dial spinning?

Is that really all that is left?

Then the end is near my friends.

 

 

 

@Wimvdb
Are that the standard knees on the new S 5????
You understand my "realistic" expectations now?

@meatsim

You see the trees, but forget the forrest.
Forget the details, look at the bigger picture.

Quote - @Wimvdb
Are that the standard knees on the new S 5????
You understand my "realistic" expectations now?

That's caused by your low poly story....

Yep, needs subdivision.

Laurie

ha-ha-ha-

I have 2 feet Wim :-)

What is the reason for my second foot?????

My dog might laught himself into a cat.

Subdevision Laurie? Right, the fastest road into more trouble

Lo Poly...???????????????????????????????????????????
The few that are there are already fighting for room now.

Show a wireframe.

Here it is in DS4 wireframe

Wow, hell yeah that's low res. Poser's smoothing would never fix those sharp points. I NEEDS a subdivision pass vilters...I don't care what ya say...lmao.

;)

Laurie

The genesis mesh without morphs is ok, it is when you add morphs it gets bad. S5 is the worst, M5 and V5 are not good either

CC SubD meshes are not the mesh. They are control cages that influence the evolution of the actual mesh in 3-space. The actual mesh is a mathematical construct.

The control mesh used as the actual mesh (what we do in Poser) is a reasonable substitute in the same way that rendering without GC and adding some extra lights is a reasonable substitute for linear workflow. But it's not the same. And in the situations where it's really vastly not the same, it's pointless.

That knee is a classic example of a control cage.

And, YES, I like Genesis in Poser for her wonderfull poly distribution.
I just checked her over from top to toe, and it is a great mesh.

How on earth can one screw it up so badly?????

But this???? I have no words for this anymore......

Thank you for the wireframe..
Added standard Genesis knees as reference

Yeah BB, I understand..
But try to explain that to Poser users that are going to pay hard earned dollars for that S5????

Where and when is this going to end....

Quote - But it is pretty identical to the mesh we see in Poser

 

Right - maybe I wasn't not clear. Using the Genesis SubD control cage in Poser, without SubD, but instead as if that were the mesh, is pointless.

Aren't you supposed to ask the Genesis exporter to "realize" the mesh, not copy the control cage? Or something? what you're showing makes no sense.

For example, in Windows program I say I want Garamond Font, 15 pixels. The bytes that make up that specification "Garamond 15" - that is not the actual font. That's a description of the font. You have to use Windows to turn that description into an actual font, by realizing the curves described in the Garamond.ttf file in raster form, with a scale factor that yields 15 pixels.

Until that font is "realized" it doesn't exist as a rasterized font that can be used on a raster display - it is just a description of the desired font.

Similarly, until the Genesis cage and whatever morphs you want are realized as a mesh, there is no mesh you can use in Poser. Geneis is a description of the mesh, not the actual mesh.

Ok, I can see that. But this is what is being exported.

The high resolution mesh/controlcage is much better, but that one is not being exported. The reasoning had to do with how it was rigged (if I recall correctly)

My point is that the solution DAZ or 3rd party will bring needs to solve this problem. Either by exporting the high res version or finding some way to subdivide in Poser

Thanks for knee renders and wireframes.

So...is there any way SR3 will allow Poser to fix this?

Or could DAZ fix this by making the cage more Poser-friendly?

What is wrong with checking what one produces?????

Do not even try to tell us that DAZ did not know by now how their S5 would behave in Poser.

Yes we only get an exported Lo res version, but this is below any quality standard.

Sorry SR3, does lots of good things like single axis scaling.
But SR3 can not repair a bad quality morph.

Quote - > Quote - But it is pretty identical to the mesh we see in Poser

 

Right - maybe I wasn't not clear. Using the Genesis SubD control cage in Poser, without SubD, but instead as if that were the mesh, is pointless.

Aren't you supposed to ask the Genesis exporter to "realize" the mesh, not copy the control cage? Or something? what you're showing makes no sense.

For example, in Windows program I say I want Garamond Font, 15 pixels. The bytes that make up that specification "Garamond 15" - that is not the actual font. That's a description of the font. You have to use Windows to turn that description into an actual font, by realizing the curves described in the Garamond.ttf file in raster form, with a scale factor that yields 15 pixels.

Until that font is "realized" it doesn't exist as a rasterized font that can be used on a raster display - it is just a description of the desired font.

Similarly, until the Genesis cage and whatever morphs you want are realized as a mesh, there is no mesh you can use in Poser. Geneis is a description of the mesh, not the actual mesh.

There are a couple of things which you can do in DS4 - setting highresolution, setting subdicision level - but no matter what you set it at - you always end up with the same mesh.

Quote - That !!!!!!!!
Is one of the worst morphs I have ever seen in 17 years of Posering..

And, YES, I like Genesis in Poser for her wonderfull poly distribution.
I just checked her over from top to toe, and it is a great mesh.

How on earth can one screw it up so badly?????

But this???? I have no words for this anymore......

Thank you for the wireframe..
Added standard Genesis knees as reference

Do you honestly think that Daz tests how the Genesis morphs look in Poser before they release it? That morph was designed with CC Sub-D in mind. So bulky becomes smooth. If it were for non-CC sub-d figure then it probably wouldn't be as bulky. The morph looks good on s5 Using CC Sub-d. That is how it was designed. I do not think Daz is going to re-design their morphs just to cater for non CC-Sub D apps. That would mean S5 for Daz and a S5 version for Poser.

Quote - > Quote - That !!!!!!!!

Is one of the worst morphs I have ever seen in 17 years of Posering..

And, YES, I like Genesis in Poser for her wonderfull poly distribution.
I just checked her over from top to toe, and it is a great mesh.

How on earth can one screw it up so badly?????

But this???? I have no words for this anymore......

Thank you for the wireframe..
Added standard Genesis knees as reference

Do you honestly think that Daz tests how the Genesis morphs look in Poser before they release it? That morph was designed with CC Sub-D in mind. So bulky becomes smooth. If it were for non-CC sub-d figure then it probably wouldn't be as bulky. The morph looks good on s5 Using Sub-d. That is how it was designed. I do not think Daz is going to re-design their morphs just to cater for non CC-Sub D apps. That would mean S5 for Daz and a S5 version for Poser.

No, they won't redesign their morphs. But this is hardly Poser heaven. So they must be thinking of some kind of solution.

And, yes, the morph looks good in DS4.

The solution is probably a tutorial of how to use the morph brush:) I do not see a solution without them or a third party editing the actual morph. This is the problem. If Genesis becomes  used more in Poser, vendors will have to do poser testing as well. I don't know the solution for this. But one thing is for sure, to cater for a non CC-subD system and a CC-SubD making both parties happy is going to be a royal pain.

If that morph looks good with SubD?
Quality control just went on vacation.
No human has knees like that.

A 35 year footbal player after a serious knee injury perhaps.

Yeah Wim, we have another opinion about Poser heaven.