Vette said: "Please understand there is no intention of limiting store items to a certain group of people. The MarketPlace was established for the community and helps keep it going from day to day. And because it serves the community will be open to all members whose products meet the submission guidelines." And, IMHO, that pretty much sums it all up. Should The Marketplace become some exclusive retailer, where "...only the finest of the fine..." is allowed, or should it be open to all, and free from harrassment by those who may be Better? I guess there's alot of money to be made here. I think that ultimately, the Powers That Be at Renderosity, ought to be the ones who decide the direction of the store, as well as the direction of quality control. The group who wishes to slant it all in its' own favor, does so in its' own interest, FOR its' own interest, and with very little concern towards the consumer.

And...without secrecy...well, the cells of terrorists, who reside in my area, could not have done what they did to the WTC. May Renderosity become free, and fair, and based upon merit, instead of the "buddy system". Poor Precious Poppi

I happen to agree that the guild mentioned in Mehndi's posts would be a great thing! A separate and independent guild. I put SO much into my work trying to achieve the best possible quality I can. I would LOVE to have my work technically rejected with constructive comments, ideas and help for improvement. Yes, it's an ego buster at first but that doesn't last long when accompanied by help or resources for improvement. That's what a guild is! And I can be banned for saying this? I can be banned for joining a guild such as this? And Mehndi was stripped of her mod status for this? I really don't get this at all. This type of guild would be a benefit to the entire community not to mention the Market Place! I think any kind of quality control shows great concern for the consumer ensuring that they are getting what they have paid for.

No poppi this in NOT my intent 'Are you now, going to try and get Mehndi and Thorne banished?" I just pointed out that Mehndi talks about ethics. Thorne said Trolls who post private messages are the scum of the earth. So I posed the question 'does posting a private message in a public forum' = an unethical scum of the earth "That someone would eventually stoop to trying to make this an horrendous offense. " Point out to me where in my post I actually mention the new guild.. I have not passed judgement on the idea one way or another at this stage. My concern was one of trust... or lack there of. Oh dear Poppi equating what is a practiced business procedure (brainstorming = private forum) to 'the cells of terrorists, who reside in my area, could not have done what they did to the WTC" is extreme to say the least.

***Those in power, of course, are determined to keep it...At the cost of secrecy and alientaion of the "unwashed masses"...I WILL NOT refer to myself as a commoner, thank you very much. **** I'm a vendor but I'm happy to call myself a commoner. Why? Because I'm first and foremost a contributing artist here at Renderosity. I still, and will always, contribute to free stuff when I have the time. If there is some big secret organisation going on here I can assure it it hasn't been up for discussion in the store forum until now. As a vendor I can read the forum (and do so regularily) but up until now this whole thing with Mehndi and Thorne has NOT been in there. Unwashed masses...give me a break! Shall we all go back to biblical times just so you can be a matyr? One more thing. Am I in the same league as a terrorist now am I, because I support a forum ONLY for vendors? Well excuse me but that's just nasty.

Unwashed masses...give me a break! Shall we all go back to biblical times just so you can be a matyr? Oh, my....no. I sell my work in the real world. (If I am feeling martyred, it is because of real world problems cutting into the tourist money that is so absolutely necessary to life, in my area.) Oh dear Poppi equating what is a practiced business procedure (brainstorming = private forum) to 'the cells of terrorists, who reside in my area, could not have done what they did to the WTC" is extreme to say the least. If we are speaking, strictly of business, Helen...Have you read, heard spoken of the insider trading that went on right before the attacks? "Betting" on a huge drop in the market...in aviation, insurance, and finance ...up 90% over what has been normal for decades. I do believe that some "brainstorming" was involved in that, don'cha know? Afterall, what is "insider" trading?

Xena, you and I have traded products, and once I bought one of your sets if I recall right, so I know your quality level personally and will vouch for it any day of the week :) I would love to have you among us. We are not all easy to like, we do not all have the same ideals in every way, but the common factor in all who want to stand with us would be a strong desire to better ourselves, our community, and above all our quality. Let us not waste a chance for something REALLY good that we can ALL benefit from, by falling down to fears of one another, of ulterior motives, of snobbishness, and hidden control mechanisms, when if there were any of these, would this be being so openly spoken of that I chose to literally go on posting, knowing I would lose my job to stand up for this idea? Do not waste at least that.

Im sorry to ask this, but it's been a terribly long day. I spent an incredibly large amount of money getting my brokes fixed today, finally broke down and bought EA's Alice only to find out it's incompatible with XP. My daughter (7) stuck an octopus tentacle to her head and ran screaming through the Vietnamese resteraunt screaming that the aliens were eating her brain. In short....I'm tired. Could someone, in email if it is better, please try to explain to me (in 50 words or less) just what is going on here? =) Thank you so much.

Poppi now you equate terrorists with your mainstream business man/woman and business practices... "Have you read, heard spoken of the insider trading that went on right before the attacks?" Get real.... sheesh

The big bird pooped on the little bird. Then the little bird tried to clean the nest out ,but the big bird dont want a clean nest, so the little bird has to go make a new nest , cause its tired of the big birds doodoo. umm... I think that bout sums it up Got it?(and who says you never learn nothing new here) ;)

Thank you TJ :) I can always count on you to be relatively sane.

No problem

TJ...nicely put...succint. Helen...research is a good tool...Check it out...It can be habit forming. And, YES, I very much do equate the recent attacks on the WTC with the drop off of tourists in South Florida beach towns to folks being afraid to fly, airports experiencing amazing problems, and living in a new "NO FLY ZONE". As for "insider trading" on the attacks...YOU get real...It happened. Check some sources before you would even try and deem to slam me in a public forum. Poppi

Pariah... okay, so I love your daughter now... I laughed so hard when I read your post that I almost spurted pepsi through my nose, which, if you've never done that, it burns like the dickens!

Hey guys, Someone pointed me in the direction of this thread and I found it very interesting reading to say the least. I am going to offer my opinions on the subject, you can take them as you want :-) I think that if the 'founding fathers' of this movement or guild can keep the fire lit long enough it would have alot of potential. Keeping that fire lit is an uphill battle though. You guys sound like you have a whole lot planned... I would recommend starting with one thing and get to where you are doing that one thing to the best of your ability... then move on to the next thing. Good ideas tend to snowball on you in such a large and active community as the digital art community. If I were to start something such as this I would pick the core component of this guild and focus like a laser on just that component. My site started as a 3D wallpaper site three or four years ago.... that is all I did for over a year. I think that if you keep everything honest and fair you might have the start to a great movement. If egos and tempers get in the way then you will have a big ugly mess on your hands. Again, these are just my initial opinions on what I have read in this thread... I don't know any details. For what its worth I wish you guys the best of luck and I hope this guild turns out to be an asset to the digital art community. If nothing else it will be yet another way for buyers to make sure that they are getting quality merchandise from thier store(s) of choice. To Mendhi: I do apologize for the delay in getting your products reviewed. Personal issues at home (wife having surgery and then a family illness) have kept me from being on top of things like I normally am... this coupled with the events going on in the world over the last two weeks have led to a slight slump which we are just now breaking out of. I do assure you that no one in my group has downloaded your products yet since we only download what we are actively reviewing. I am expecting about five or six reviews to be published withing the next couple days. Then we will move on to the next group of products (including yours.) Thank you for your compliments regarding our service and it is truly our pleasure to be soon taking an in depth look at your products. Mendhi and Thorne, feel free to email me if you would like to have my unbiased input/opinions on your plans. I might not be a great artist but I have been in the trenches for a bit. Not trying to talk down to you like I am an Oracle or something... just offering assistance. Eric

Poppi You keep changing course.. "And, YES, I very much do equate the recent attacks on the WTC with the drop off of tourists in South Florida beach towns to folks being afraid to fly, airports experiencing amazing problems, and living in a new "NO FLY ZONE". " This statement above while true, has nothing to do with comparing terrorist activity and brainstorming in the mainstream business world. I know this happened.. 'As for "insider trading" on the attacks...YOU get real...It happened." I am well aware it happened. Amongst the terrorists.. I am also more than capable of doing research.. Quote "An elite government task force, along with the Securities and Exchange Commission, is investigating the possibility that someone associated with last week's terrorist attacks tried to profit by shorting the stocks most likely to be affected by the disaster." Source http://www.usatoday.com/money/general/2001-09-21-suspect-options.htm Qoute"WASHINGTON -- The government is investigating whether terrorists tried to profit from stock and options trading before last week's World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks, Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill said." Source http://www.freep.com/news/nw/terror2001/finan21_20010921.htm Note in both these examples they refer to those being assosicated with the act of terrror.. Not your main stream buisness populous. As for slamming well your the one that wrote. "That someone would eventually stoop to trying to make this an horrendous offense. " This was in reply to a post I made that had absoutely nothing to do with the topic of the guild.. Which started this whole ball rolling.. Helen over, out and outta here... It's been fun playing with you.

I'm all for the new guild, maybe it's because I'm old, maybe it's because I have children, maybe it's because I'm just plain wierd, but I happen to think quality is about the most important thing to consider when shopping any where for anything...unless of course you're 7 years old and just got a $10 bill for your birthday...So I would love to see some sort of quality control that would allow me to know at a glance that that a product would do exactlly what I'd expect it to do with no complications...In order to have quality control there must be standards and standards do change as the community devolopes...even in the real world... But the guild didnt want to stop there, the guild also wanted to offer the best possible resources to new artists...A place where the artist could go to learn all the tricks of the trade before venturing out into the market...A place to all learn together and raise standards as the knowledge grew...6 months ago no one knew what the heck a mat pose was, and now its almost considered rude not to include them... And for this, a fairlly noble effort, a moderator looses her job, flames are flying from all directions, and the perverbial shit has hit the perverbial fan...I dont understand it...why?... Why is wanting quality control such a bad thing? Why would any merchant worth thier salt be afraid of such a thing? Why would the admins of this site be afraid of such a thing? I honestlly dont understand it...

This statement above while true, has nothing to do with comparing terrorist activity and brainstorming in the mainstream business world. Shoot...girlfriend...They brainstormend...and, and, GASP...IN SECRET. Dmentia....exactly. This is a wonderful idea. I honestlly dont understand it... Imagine being new here....there is much to understand. I guess I am too new, and left out of the well...r'osity loop..private, or public...to get an understanding, easily. So, I draw my own conclusions. They are not flattering to the site as a whole. Poppi

Yep Poppi have to say your right, but then we are talking about a mentality that verges on the insane. Of course they did it in secret.. The may be insane but they weren't stupid. A group of people whose ideologies differ so vastly from the main stream and what is considered the norm, that President Bush felt the need to point this out in his recent address... And NO you cannot compare these fanatics and there practices to the business practices of the mainstream business world.. We are after all a benign group, who simply discuss ways to improve the Market Place. Both for the vendor and the customer.. If the fact that it is vendor only gets your nickers in a knot... Well so be it.

I for one think it's a wonderful idea! Cookie :o)

Some one sent me an email, I guess trying to get my goat for standing up for what I beleive in...Some one sympathizes with my "poor" sales...Being that I'm completelly open with the fact that I support this guild, have from the beginning and will till the end, I have no reason to hid my response to that individual...the following is my response.... First of all, my sales are excellent thanks for your consern, my health is poor, but thats an entirelly different matter... I havent attacked any one, I've defended myself and the things I believe in, and if you can't accept that about me, then I feel very bad for you...You defend your beleifs I'll defend my own...I know the market place has lost very loyal customers, there once were customers who purchased one of every new thing to hit the store, they could afford it, and they threw money around like confetti....One I know of inparticular didnt even have a clue how to use the stuff, she just collected it, had to wait until she went to visit her artist friend in another state so she could learn how to use all those wonderful goodies she had bought...Guess what happened when her friend informed her that alot of what she had bought was crap, and being that she had held on to it for so long before going to visit her friend she could not return it...She still purchases religiouslly from those merchants she found out she could trust during that venture, but she wont touch a new artist with a ten foot poll!...So in affect I didnt loose a customer, but everyone to become a merchant from that day on never got that customer...You can say I'm looking out for myself all you want, but really I'm looking out for the budding artist out there who do quality work...I feel really bad that this once loyal to renderosity customer has become loyal to only a few...She could afford to buy more from new artists, but she doesnt trust the quality control of the store enough to take chances any more...in the beginning she did...so who lost?...

Well then let those who support it, support it. Let those who don't, not support it. I will prefer to use my own network of beta testers. I am, honestly, sorry to hear about you ill health. I hope it is something that you can overcome. I am not at my peak right now. A chest cold coupled with asthma and seasonal allergies do not make for good bedfellows. Best of luck to you.

Helen, not to put too fine a point on it, but you say, "This was in reply to a post I made that had absoutely nothing to do with the topic of the guild.. ", so I have to ask you, why post to this thread at all then, since this thread is about this guild? :) It does seem you got what you wanted though, to stir it into a hornets nest. I expect any moment now it will get moved to C&D so as to deprive most artists of knowledge this movement exists, since most do not read C&D that read here. Ah well, I shall repost, repost, and repost, anywhere and everywhere, with a FAQ we are working on now about the idea ;) To Eric of In Depth... thank you for you input! :) I was not meaning to sound critical at all Eric, I had heard you all were up against some problems lately, and as I said, I am nothing if not patient :) Waiting my turn and time for a review does not bother me at all :) My only point was when folks have said this is your turf, as was said in this thread, and more explicitely in another inside the Merchants Forum, is that you all can barely keep up. Our wee grassroots effort would also suffer the exact same syndrome too, barely managing to keep up :) But if there are more hands manning the cannons, more shots get fired :) As in, more reviews maybe get done. I believe the plans at the moment are to continue explaining and answering questions, since alot of these questions are actually having me and others think of new ideas. This is great stuff here :) And then, compile all the "answers" worked out in these threads into a FAQ, post that to all forums that we can reach to post to, and again answer questions, then call a general public meeting for any and all who wish to attend to help us brainstorm out goals, and ideas, as well as "application" process ideas to join for those wishing to join :) A few points to make: We do not aim to beta test for others :) Each of you should still use your own beta testers. We would be willing to look over your "ready to put out to the public, or already in the public" product :) We do aim, each of us as far as I know who have directly been responsible for the initial ideas of the guild, to attempt to teach what we know to ALL who want to learn it, not just the chosen few, so that anyone who wants to learn to do better work may do so :) At first, things will be slow, and we face sore and severely determined opposition, who would rather discredit us than see anything of this nature arise. Someone earlier in one of the threads mentioned martyrs. Once, someone here told me that for all the times I throw myself onto the fire, I must be the reincarnation of Joan of Arc ;) My mother used to say to me, "Fools rush fearlessly in where angels fear to tread." Then later in my life, I learned to believe that to Allah, fear of dying in battle for what is right is a sin. If something is right, you go even to your own death, since there lies Paradise. To me, this has become that sort of thing over time, the Quality thing, as Quality levels have grown worse, and as store responsibility grew less and less, and vendor responsibility has grown less and less. A battle that I knew that if I took up fighting, I would metaphorically die to fight. Yet to not fight this fight would be a sin :) Do I feel fear? Yes. I am very very afraid. There are people today who have risen against me who hold power to remove me entirely for my efforts. Will I fight? I will go on fighting this battle, but I do not plan to be a martyr ;) This is right, and it is good, and it will win in the end. Sometimes, all it takes to win is being willing to show up. Today, those of you who have shown up, take my breath away.

Hmm... I guess there must be a lot of stuff going on that I'm either not seeing, or just not picking up on... the way this whole post started out is way different than what it's going on about now... "If you want to defend your rights and show that a minority elite group can't rule what is good and bad for the Markett place please post your concerns and comments at the merchants forum, under Vette's message. If you don't take care of this now, your stuff could be removed or rejected in the future. So common here and defend your rights to sell." Which is why I kept watching this post to begin with... I think anyone should be allowed to sell whatever they want, no matter how crappy it is in anyone else's oppinion, we (at least here in the US) do live in a capitalist society... true, quality should be a concern, but if someone wants to sell something, and someone else wants to buy it, then that's their right to do so... so the initial post bothered me to a degree... but then when the discussion about this new "guild/group/whatever" came up, I thought (and still do) that it was a good idea... in a way it seems to me, a garauntee that the product you're about to buy, or(from what I've gathered) about to download for free is worth your time and money... I have to say that I haven't bought anything that I haven't been pleased with from any poser-related store/site... but then I consider myself a pretty conscientious (is that spelled right) buyer... I try to look for gallery images, or posts that show what the product is/will do before I buy it... but if there is a way of knowing right away, via some sort of "Stamp of Approval" that the quality I expect is there, then it saves me the time and effort... maybe I'm reading this whole thing wrong, and I'm way off base, but this whole thing seems to be a voluntary procedure... if you want to have your product "tested" you can, and you don't have to if you don't want to, but if you do, and it is approved, then people will have a little assurance that they'll probably be pleased with their buy... and on the flip side, if you submit it, and it isn't approved, there's nothing to stop you from still selling, or giving away your product, just don't tell anyone you submitted it, no one but the "guild" members would know, and true they COULD run out and tell everyone "Oh that's no good... it didn't pass our tests" but that will do nothing but discredit their own efforts, and fewer people would submit, thus ruining their worth... so it would seem silly, to ME anyway, that they would do that... I guess I don't understand why so many people seem to have gotten hot under the collar about this... but like I said, there is probably a lot of stuff going on that I'm just not aware of, there usually is in situations like this... I truly am open to any comments, particularly those who think that this isn't a good idea, as to why it isn't, I guess I'm just not seeing the downside to it...

Cin... there is something in all of us as artists, each of us share it in common. It is a fear of rejection. It hurts us so deeply, the pain is almost unbearable. So many artists have even committed suicide over feeling their work was somehow not accepted in the past... this is how serious a problem this is inside each of us who are artists. In no other trade/calling have I seen it to quite this level as in artists. I think the thing that is going on here, the downside of it, is that people fear they will be rejected perhaps. Or even just fear the pain it will bring others to be rejected, even if they feel certain that their own work will pass, and so would rather this not happen at all than that anyone ever feel pain. From such compassion are saints made :) However... I too feel the same fear we all feel of rejection. As a store tester, when it came time to have to even tell anyone that they needed to fix something, I struggled, it was hard, it hurt to do it, and I wrote the softest spoken letters I could find it in me to write, praising all I could see that was good first, to let them know I DID want them to "fix" what needed fixing, and resubmit to me. I never got anything from those whose products I tested to include in the Marketplace, other than praise and thank you letters, thanking me for trying to actually help. I could not imagine wanting to be mean to someone by rejecting without cause. I cannot imagine rejecting without telling why, and then without trying to help that person find a way to resubmit so that I can then gladly and happily not reject again. And then.. in the end, this is not about rejection from the store. Our guild effort is not about the store, who controls the store, whether the store here will ever change or not (it won't, since those who try to change it for the better will be overcome by those who prefer entropy), or anything at all to do with this store. All it has to do is with a new guild idea. A guild made by artists, run by artists, with achievable objectives that artists can feel good about joining in with, and even benefits to those who do not wish to join, such as the freely viewable information on how to do better craftsmanship we plan, and the independent testing services idea :)

Mehndi never, ever be so presumptuous as consider you know why I post to any thread... I posted to the thread in reply to Thorne giving you permission to post the messages he posted in a private forum.. That is PART of this thread.. Permission I thought wasted.. as you have shown a total disregard of private information and confidentiality by posting a private email in a public forum.

Helen, I won't let you draw me into whatever it is you are doing in here with others, the sort of heated little debate you have going. You and I, we have no problems between us, as far as I am concerned :) I have only one comment, which granted, will probably not make a whole lot of sense to most here perhaps, unless you actually do know me. Today is a GOOD day to die. It has been a VERY good day. :)

Mehndi on a personal level I also have no quarrel with you.. However I do question things. You use innuendo and manipulation of words to make things seem what they are not.. You try to credit me with things and actions that are not so. Actually I quite admire your use of the written word.. You have the ability to weave into a sentence something that is pure fantasy yet make it seem true. 'The pen is mighter than the sword' and how well you wield it. I have no hidden agenda, I am not here as part of some secret society, ploting away.. I post as and individual as is my right. My opinion as valid as yours. I have not given an opinion one way or another regarding the new guild. I have too little information to do so. I do however question your passing judgement on others work. I do not feel I can trust you.. Honesty is always best do you not think..?? You often say you value loyalty.. I value that also, along with integrity. As they say actions speak louder than words and your actions in posting that email speak volumes to me. Besides breaking confidentiality you broke copyright. Sad when you consider you were the moderator of the copyright forum.. This is starting to look like you want your guild be if by fair means or foul... Just not how I do business.. So I will have to ponder long and hard on this one.. Thats me done with this thread.. I am sure you will want the last word.. :)

But...WHY the emphasis on secrecy? Why is the merchant's forum so secret that one cannot even post their OWN thread, without fear of reprisal? In real life, institutions that are honest and above board do not mind a little scrutiny. And, the converse. I can understand the merchants not wanting the public at large to participate in their discussions, hence bogging down their system. However, I do think that the public should have the right to scrutinize what is going on with their marketplace. After all...it is the public who keeps the marketplace going. If everything is honest and above board, secrecy should not be a problem. If you want to defend your rights and show that a minority elite group can't rule what is good and bad for the Markett place please post your concerns and comments at the merchants forum, under Vette's message. If you don't take care of this now, your stuff could be removed or rejected in the future. So common here and defend your rights to sell. This is the thread that started this one.....I am out front asking...are some of our merchants attempting to monopolize the renderosity marketplace?

On the HONOR system, on YOUR honor- anyone that reads this ENTIRE post here, by me, feel FREE to pick up a FREE Poser prop at the bottom of ALL my words... (Yes, Poppi, your name is mentioned....) ----------------------------------- Goodness gracious! PLEASE let's try to refrain from all the bashing here and let us get one good idea across plainly before it turns into a flame war! Sheesh.... It's about quality, and being tired of seeing substandard merchandise cluttering up the store, the same stuff that used to be put in free stuff for a while at least, until the modeler got the skill and the self confidence to submit it for sale, and by that time we had learned a little better what to do, how to do it, and what NOT to do... and about being sick and tired of being a regular customer at this store and the "let the buyer beware" attitude. I just added up my purchases for this year from the Renderosity Marketplace- in all I have spent

$542.64

that's JUST from this store, and just durng the past 1 year (not counting about an equal amount spent at DAZ and other places). As a regular and frequent buyer, as well as a merchant here, it becomes a little frustrating after a while dealing with what has basically become a digital flea market where you pays your money and you takes your chances. Well I took no chances with the $542.64 that I spent here, because I checked out each artist that I made purchases from as much as could be possible- gallery posts, what others had commented on a particular item, etc. And I thought it would certainly be nice to have some sort of set of REAL Standards of Excellence so that all this be-waring wasn't so darn necessary... In America, the very heart of free enterprise, there are standards testing facilities and organizations by the score, both governmental and privately owned. Poopie peddlers cannot hide behind the phrase "free enterprise" because even in America we do like quality- just ask the U.S. car manufacturers what happened back in the 1980's... ...and then those car manufacturers WISED UP and started doing some REAL quality and safety testing, and created sets of absolute standards by which to rate a vehicle's performance and quality and safety levels... and then it kinda got cool to drive an American car again... (no, I've always driven Ford pickup trucks, even the bad ones, but they're somewhat better now). People demanded quality, and for a while the only place they could get it was in a foreign automobile. THAT was FREE ENTERPRISE at work... but that same free enterprise demanded that there be quality and a way to tangibly measure that quality beyond "...well, I kinda like the green one..." ...and so the idea was born. It was a better idea than my previous tack of posting in Free Stuff a better version of some junk that somehow made it's way into the marketplace. And then I discovered that I wasn't the only one doing that... But what really got my fire going was hearing, WEEKS ago, that RCook was ranting that anyone undermining the Holy We-Can-Do-No-Wrong Marketplace should be site banned, and then using that same tired old threat to try and intimidate Mehndi and Goddess knows who else into giving up any idea of quality standards imposed from outside at all. SHAME ON HIM. THAT, POPPI, IS PART OF THE REASON FOR SECRECY... Truth is, for everyone that rants on about how everything should be free and there should be no marketplace at all, MUST understand that without the Marketplace, this place we all love so well to come and vent our frustrations would probably not survive. It just plain costs money to run an operation of this size, and the owners and operators MUST have a way to pay for that. But they now run the risk of discrediting the Marketplace that helps pay for this operation, by diluting the overall quality of the Marketplace as a whole. As I've said before I don't make my living from selling my models- and I personally prefer the barter system to dealing with any cash at all- hey, I'll trade you my faerie for your cool warrior princess... but I think that puts me in a good position to be able to speak out about some things, this hot topic being one of them, because MY bottom line doesn't necessarily have dollar $ign$ strewn across it. Now that you've all calmed down, I'm glad you can see the rationale behind it- it's not money, and heaven forbid it AIN'T about trying to start yet another snobby clique for the express purpose of excluding people- it is 100% about quality and honor, and being able to have it mean something about your hard work and craftsmanship, that you've reached a certain milestone for your long hours of painstaking care and attention to details and should rightly be rewarded, if that is your wish, by knowing that you've done something that meets a high level of excellence by being accepted into the store. Do you think that those several pages of standards that DAZ holds it's vendors to, is about them being snobs? Hardly. No reason we can't have our cake and eat it, too... Now since reading all that has gotta be hungry work, y'all have some free birthday cake on me... just click on the image to help yourself. May the faeries bless you all, Thorne, a Renderosity original =};-}>

Thank you, Thorne, for the honesty. Lately, it has been rare around, here. (Am having the cake with my coffee. Is it your birthday? If so...enjoy.) Poppi

Please forgive me Russell, my only excuse was that I've been up all night with a bothersome Vickie doll.... I INCORRECTLY gave RCook's name above as the one doing the threatening- it was not Russell at all, it was JeffH. That is, it was JeffH and NOT RCook that couldn't bear the idea of quality standards for the Marketplace. I apologize to Russell for my error. Thorne (it's my little "adopted" twin faerie grandaughters' birthdays- 7 years old and full of meanness as any adult... ;o))

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=88949&Start=1&Sectionid=0&WhatsNew=Yes

My dear loyal and trustworthy little helper- we aren't naming names here yet, with one noteable exception that is, now that I got it right. Thank you for your unswerving support li'l faerie, you have a genuine faerie heart and it's in the right place. ;o)

Just wanna let everyone know that I'm not trying to point fingers or anything, I REALLY don't know the details of that situation. I DO however know that I've been seeing more and more stuff like that, where people are complaing about problems with what they've bought and the person that they bought it from not helping. I also know that I've had a few friends of mine tell me that they've bought stuff that was very poor quality, and didn't want to "waste their time" posting about it because they knew it would be either A) Not approved to be left as a comment about the product. B) Be deleted from the forum. I can't say either way wether this is true or not because it didn't happen to me, however when I hear things like that it makes me realize that the honesty & integrity I thought was here really isn't. Okay now back to my safe lil mushroom... Cookie P.S. you are most welcome sweety :o)

all right, let me get this straight. 1: i still have no clue what virus was talking about in the first post, here. what elite somebody or other is trying to kick everybody else outta the store??? 2: somebody wants to start a poser artists' guild, and if you qualify as an artist that puts out high-quality items, you get a guild seal of approval. this guild is utterly independant of any forum and has nothing to do with any vendor venue. so why do the vendor venues care??? seems to be somebody thinks the vendor venues think that if this independent guild doesnt give somebody or other a seal of approval thingy, that this poor person will not be able to sell stuff in the vendor venues. but if the vendor venues aren't associated with the guild, then having a guild seal of approval doesnt affect, one way or the other, if an artist places a product in the store. somebody else seems to think that the guild is going to grant these 'gold medals' or whatever to only people they like, and that this new 'clique' of artists is going to put everybody else out of business, because 'everybody else' doesn't have this 'gold medal.' am i following this story here? i think you're all nuts. :) and i told you the big secret going on in the back rooms of all the stores, including this one. sears, j c penny, macys, rendersoity; we're all plotting how to sell you stuff. what signs to put up on the shelves to make you want to buy stuff. what to do about shoplifters. what do you think we're doing? go to your favorite store at the mall and ask 'em if you can sit in on their next 'secret' employee-only meeting they're gonna have. at least we're no a fast food joint, scraping your food off the floor and spitting in your drinks and stuff. :)

After reading this thread in parts as it was posted, thank you Thorne for finally getting to the bottom of it all. As a consumer here in the store, it would be extremely nice to have some kind of seal of approval that the product would work as advertised. I too look for forum posts and any gallery posts about a product, comments from those artists I have come to trust by watching them here for over a year, before I spend money on something. I think it's a great idea. Shame Mehndi had to lose mod status over all of this. While I don't always agree, she has her heart in the right place and she's a damn good artist. (my opinion only)

Hey Guys, I would recommend that Mehndi, Thorne, and all those involved with setting up this guild continue to meet in private until you work out as many kinks as possible in your plan. Then, when you have what you think is a solid plan, I would present it to the community for questions and comments. All of this 'debate' is bad press for an idea that hasn't even taken any shape or form and it gets things off to a bad start. I understand that it is raising lots of GOOD issues but I also feel it is creating lasting impressions on people as well. If you need a private place to meet and discuss your plans I can help you with that. To Mehndi: I think that Jade was just pointing out the fact that we are already in the process of bringing something similar to the community.... nothing more. I cannot comment on what is being said in the marketplace forum because to the best of my knowledge I do not have access to that forum. I did ask Vette here at Renderosity if they would be interested in starting the same sort of partnership with me that 3D Commune and DAZ have but never received a yes or no back from her. Last I heard she was going to think about it. I think (from what I am reading) that our two services will have one major difference. The Guild would be running items through a checklist and giving out a seal whereas our teams will be writing up reviews of the products. Your service could possibly be compared to the "Inspected by Number 12" stickers we see on products. I do not say this as an insult because I do think it is a novel way to do quality control... plus it will make it possible for your group to grade larger quantities of items. One last note... kind of a shameless plug if you will... the following DAZ reviews are scheduled to be released this weekend: Light Horse Mappak Dark Horse Mappak Charger Mappak BMW Z3 Thanks for listenin' Eric

Personally, I would consider the guild seal as something along the lines of an underwriter's laboratory sticker or a good housekeeping seal of approval. Both are indications that a product has been thoroughly tested and has passed the stringent requirements for quality held by the testing agencies. It works for me. And as someone who has spent over $2k in the renderosity marketplace alone since it's opening (this figure does NOT include expenditures at DAZ or BBAy) I would more than welcome something like this. In fact, I can see where it would actually help to INCREASE sales and would be beneficial to all concerned. Think about it. Kate

I will rescind my comment waaaaayyy up above , i.e., "...FOR its' own interest, and with very little concern towards the consumer." Because I do all of a sudden believe that possibly the consumer is being taken into consideration as being more than a walking credit card. My big concern would be, what exactly is "substandard", and how is it decided? On terms of usefulness? On terms of degree of difficulty? That is, if this thing be made by Johnny Q. Public with a little time, will it be disqualified, as being too "simple"? For example, there are alot of free modeling programs about, but I have yet to see one which is particularly easy to learn quickly, in order to make more complex things. But an experienced modeler in The Guild might blow off someone's creation as being too elementary or simplistic, even though I suspect alot of people might be willing to buy it, since they don't know how to make it on thir own, or have the time to learn.... Will this Esoteric Alliance be thoroughly non-biased? And finally, will people even care? For example, My mechanic absolutely despises Quaker State motor oil, and has said so, repeatedly. If he owned an auto shop, he would most definitely not carry it. Strangely enough, I've been using it for years, with no problems, and I'm not about to stop just because some hick bumpkin has a problem with it... Not exactly on-topic, but that's my analogy, and I'm sticking to it. :) In short, what is hoped to be gained? Higher quality, or less competition?

Oh Lord, I can only imagine the crap that I am going to be under for posting to this, but I have to say that I support this idea and here is why... Standards is what everyone in this Community has when it comes to the websites. Renderosity upholds a standard when it comes to posts in the forum, or nudity in galleries. In this regard, 3D Commune and The GRC is no different. Even in Renderotica we have standards as well when it comes to posts and galleries as to what is allowed and what isn't. Why should the Online Stores be any different? I have always stood by the "Test" before "Sold" principles when it comes to the online stores that DSI runs. It is very important to do so, not just for the artist who created the Product for Sale, but for the customer that is going to buy that product. Granted, it may take more time before the product is released, but it insures that the customers buying that product would be satisfied enough with that product to return to buy other product in confidence that they aren't going to be "screwing the pootch" with their next purchase. So yes, something along these lines are indeed needed and I support it, just like I support our guidelines. Yes, it sucks when we tell "so and so" that the product isn't quite ready for sale yet, but allot of vendors end up emailing Diane back and say: "Hey, thanks, I didn't see that." rather than get upset. My only concern and question would be... How do you plan to bring all of these artists together and keep past/present politics out of it? I ask this, because you are talking about gathering a group of talented individuals together who have at one time or another been a victim of the past political structure that haunts this Community even to this day. I can assure you that there would be some of those artists that would completely object to my being in the Guild because of past feelings... and as a result, come a time when you will have to reject a potential artist, or be pressured to do so, by another artist... or some wont accept your invite, simply because "so and so" is already in your Guild. True, it is unfortunate that this would occur, however, it does and it should be something that you consider happening. I hope it works for all of you and I hope that it works out for the Community. But, I as a producer of product now, hessitate at joining your venture only because I think your idea would suffer if I played a part in it... which saddens me. Jack

As far as a guild the standard the guild uses to "grade" products, that will be decided by the guild...So if you want to monitor and add your input to what that standard should be, get involved, everyone is invited...To not join because you dont like some one already involved would be to allow those who are involved to make descisions without your input...Everyone's input is appreciated and should be heard by everyone... This guild should not be about who is who...this guild will be about quality. If we cant all put our past sqabbles that have nothing to do with quality behind us and make a mature decision as a team, then there will end up being a problem...I guess what it boils down to is whats more important to you personally?...Slitting the throat of an enemy or saving the life of a friend, I know my analogy is slightlly extreme, but if you think about it, thats what it boils down to...personally I'd rather save the life of the friend... Personal Note to Jack Never knew you well myself, didnt go rushing off to commune in your defense when all the mess went down, didnt like or dislike you personally, just didnt know enough to care one way or the other...I will say how ever that Diane was the BEST I ever worked with! I would honestlly buy from her personally before I would buy from any other store if she was selling something I needed, she'd be the first place I looked, not just her products, but products approved by Diane, I know how hard she was on me, and so I know that anything she approves is "good quality" to not have some one like Diane in this guild would be a terrible loss, and if your standards jack are like hers, then you'd be a great asset as well! Not having her around to approve my work and the work of others is kinda what made this guild such a must...Sorry not trying to blow smoke up any one's butt here, but I do miss Diane :(...

Whatever happened to good ol' Caviat Emptor; "let the buyer beware"? I can pick up a copy of Consumer Reports and find out if the latest thingamabob is what I want, but I'd personally be far more likely to look around and decide for myself, and then only blame myself if I end up buying a bunch of useless, non-functional, scheisse.... This whole thing, to me, sounds like some sort of exlusionary plan to try to insure that the Best Of The Best stay at the top of the heap, whilst being disguised as an attempt to up the quality across the board. And of what philosophy is this idea born? A slew of really good 3D-types got together and decided that it's their service to humanity to effect the betterment of the merchants' offerings? If so, is it to actually achieve this state of Utopia-In-3D, or is it so they aren't inadvertantly clumped in with the loathesome group of substandard 3D Profiteers? When I go to K-Mart, I can accepot that alot of the crap on the shelves is crap, but it doesn't mean I'll buy it. Why should The Marketplace be any different? Whatever happened to Caviat Emptor?

That's kind of the point... and I'm not affiliated with this guild really in any way, other than thinking it's a good idea... you can go to KMart and see shelves and shelves of crap, but then you can also see on the shelf a quality piece of merchandise with the "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval" stamp on it... it lets you know that this piece of merchandise has been tested, and found to meet a certain standard of quality. When I go to buy, let's say a blender, I'm more likely to buy the one that's been tested and approved by a third party testing agency, than I am to buy just whatever is closest on the shelf to me. From what I've read that's what I see this guild trying to do... provide a way of knowing that you'll be getting a quality product... And just like at KMart, not having the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval doesn't stop merchants from selling their goods, or consumers from buying them... and there's still no garauntee that if you buy the blender with the Good Housekeeping Seal that you'll be happy with it, or that if you buy the one that doesn't have the seal that you'll be disappointed. I for one wouldn't let this "stamp" affect whether or not I'd buy something... if I saw something that I wanted, that hadn't been tested, I would still buy it... vice versa, just because something has been approved, that would make me buy it if I didn't want/need it...

I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that one of the original plans was to single out certain For Sale items and create near-duplicates, but offer them for free, in effect, completely negating the attempts of the seller of the "substandard" item in question. An officila stamp or seal of approval is a good thing, of course, especially when it comes from a respected body of cohorts. But to use the Quality Control premise as an excuse to simply eradicate current "lesser" contributions, and to discourage the submission of such, is despicable. Like I said, I may be reading this incorrectly, but then again, it's possible that the "official" response has been tuned down, more appropriately.... I still have to question the motive, the end, and the means, as does everyone, before making a personal decision that this is OK. For me, it doesn't matter; I trust my own judgement. Equally, I think all others should do the same. What I see is a self-appointed group of high achievers, looking to monopolize a booming market, seeking justification and approval. Yes, they are willing to let the future Best Of The Best in on it as well.... I have to wonder about the arrogance which goes into this: This is the self-appointed group who Makes The Rules and Sets The Standards. They know what is best for us, right? And they sure as Hell will be able to determine that which we need stay away from. I bet after a good while, none of us would dare buy anything lacking The Stamp...except at our own risk..... Again, I see a group attempting to capitalize on a "need" that they themselves have attempted to instill within the 3d-whatever-buying-public. Note the people so-far who are approving: They're all among the Biggies...

Well, I've kept quiet about this, and I probably should have stayed quiet, given how volatile this subject is. Its very hard to take a stance on a subject when your livelihood depends on keeping good relations on all possible fronts. So, here goes my viewpoint, and that's all it is, and I certainly don't mean to offend anyone here with it. Yes, in my opinion, there is a problem with the renderosity store. No, unfortunately, I don't think this guild will offer much of a solution. I also have to ask the question: has anyone stopped to consider that the stores might not accept ads containing such a "seal of approval". Its not in a stores best interest to create two quality control standards in their inventory, and that is what a "sticker system" would do; regardless of whether a product had ever even tried to get a the "sticker" or not. I also don't think you see this kind of problem at Daz, due in part I think to some of the things I will discuss below, so I will only be referring next to what I personally view as the root of the problems brought up in the thread; the marketplace here. The problems in the renderosity store are not as simple as I think its been made out to be. This isn't only an issue of artists releasing work of suspect quality, but also the fact that the renderosity store appears directionless, and confusing. I also think this is one of the main reasons some artists have shied away from trying to sell in the renderosity store. A store has to have goals and strategy, and be mindful of the health of the overall "Poser" and "Poser-Related" product market, not simply stacking everything up in a "room" and letting customers wander around. I think there needs to be more inventory accounting, more inventory consolidation for older products where viable, and general organization that's just not getting done now. I think a bit too much of that management has been left in the hands of the artists themselves, and I don't think that's good for renderosity's marketplace to be stable. If the store was managed more efficently simply on the logistical side of things, I don't think this problem would be as noticeable as it has become for some people. There perhaps also needs to be a more rigorous and publicly stated set of standards that people can be assured are being met, and if not they have legitimate claims for complaint. Clearly there are some things that are subjective in rating an artistic product, but even still I believe you can narrow them down to basic goals for store testers that would hold true to any product of similar style. Has anyone attempted to work with renderosity on improving the situation? I cannot believe they would knowingly prefer an unstable and possibly self-destructive market situation to an alternative. And, perhaps the short-term solution for buyers currently concerned over quality issues is to only shop in the Best-Sellers category and letting more confident buyers set the tone of the marketplace. I think its there that you will find the patrons of store have put their own seal of approval.

"Yes, they are willing to let the future Best Of The Best in on it as well...." Has anyone excluded you yet? I've not heard one word from anyone try to exclude anybody. "I have to wonder about the arrogance which goes into this: This is the self-appointed group who Makes The Rules and Sets The Standards. They know what is best for us, right? And they sure as Hell will be able to determine that which we need stay away from." Again, noone has told you that you can't be in on it, so why not help set the rules and standards, rather than sitting around complaining about someone else doing it for you. "I bet after a good while, none of us would dare buy anything lacking The Stamp...except at our own risk....." Well basically you said in this stament: "Whatever happened to good ol' Caviat Emptor; "let the buyer beware"?" that you wanted it to be buyer beware anyway, so lets not complain about "at your own risk" now. "Note the people so-far who are approving: They're all among the Biggies..." That statement is way off too, as I TOTALLY support the idea, and I'm pretty sure you've probably never even heard my name. The fact of the matter is, my husband and I used to buy stuff from here, we've seen some really poor quality products and because of that we've decided that we will only buy from DAZ from now on because we KNOW that DAZ sells quality products. I'm ending my rant now. Cookie

Dmentia, :: Thanks so much for the compliment. When I go to K-Mart, I can accepot that alot of the crap on the shelves is crap, but it doesn't mean I'll buy it. Why should The Marketplace be any different? Mike, The Marketplace as it stands now IS different. K-Mart does not allow anyone and everyone who wants to sell something to sell in their store. They have buyers who decide what product will be sold in their store. And those buyers are going to have some sort of standards as to what merchandise gets sold in their store. Granted, they may not be the same standards as Macy's, but there are some standards. (And actually, their standards have established in your mind the idea that a lot of the stuff in their store is crap. You go in predisposed to think of the merchandise as crap.) That's not elitist. That's the way retail generally works. And most retail establishments like K-Mart and Macy's will take that product back within a certain period of time if a customer is not satisfied with it. They don't make you deal with the manufacturer of that product unless it becomes a warranty issue down the road. I realize that with downloadable product, returns are a much trickier issue. There's nothing physical to take back and no guarantee a person will delete said product once receiving a refund. However, if a retail establishment has to deal with an extraordinary amount of returns on a certain product, you can bet the buyers will think twice about carrying that product in the future. Many, certainly not all, products are actually tested by buyers before an order is placed for that product. And a customer at least gets to look at what they are buying when buying it in a brick and mortar store. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as long as a product submitted to The Marketplace is packaged correctly and works as promised (meaning it has the correct files, etc), it is allowed into The Marketplace. That's fine, if that's the way Renderosity chooses to run their store, but it can't be equated to K-Mart or any other brick and mortar retail establishment. It might be more closely equated to mail order in that the customer only sees an advertising representation of a product before purchasing. But even most mail order houses have buyers that decide what product goes into their "store" and they stand behind that product. Renderosity's store is really more like a cooperative or bazaar where pretty much anyone who wants to set up a storefront can. And the level of customer service and quality control they give can vary widely. Like it or not, any experience from one vendor (most especially from more than one) will have an effect on the other vendors. This actually works somewhat in the favor of lesser quality goods. It benefits them much more to be surrounded by quality goods than it benefits the quality goods to have lesser quality in their midsts. I don't think that is elitist. I think it is reality. I completely understand these vendors feeling the need to find some way of assuring consumer confidence, since the Marketplace absolves itself of responsibility for it. I can't say yet whether I think the idea of a guild is a good one. I'd really need to know much more about how it would work. Personally, I think it is much better to have the site owner take responsibility for what is sold in their store. Does that mean that there will never be unhappy customers? No. But it does help establish a reputation for a store as a whole. And that reflects on all its vendors. Diane

Heya Bloodsong, in answer to your question: {{{{{1: i still have no clue what virus was talking about in the first post, here. what elite somebody or other is trying to kick everybody else outta the store???"}}}} A) Though I am not a mind reader, and therefore cannot be certain, I think it was in response to Vette's thread where she mentioned having heard of the guild effort of ours, and asked people's ideas and input about the Renderosity Merchants Guild seeming to mistakenly be believing some things about this guild effort, as effects Renderosity's little in house guild (which is NOT the guild we want to make, change, alter, or have anything to do with), inside the merchants forum... and maybe he feared that somehow this new guild controls in some way who can sell and who cannot, and whatever other fears he may have had. {{{{{2: somebody wants to start a poser artists' guild, and if you qualify as an artist that puts out high-quality items, you get a guild seal of approval. this guild is utterly independant of any forum and has nothing to do with any vendor venue. so why do the vendor venues care???}}}} A) Again, this is speculation. Maybe the vendor venues care because it is a wild card, not under their control. Therefore, a potential threat? I havent a clue. This guild idea is not something that would in any way prevent anyone from placing his products into the store anywhere, anywhere there is a store that will take them, no matter what review your products were given, bad or good. Bad reviews basically mean you might be aware you have some things to work on, and you can if you choose to do so. Since that information would be confidential, no one would even know anyone had "failed". Good reviews though no doubt, folks would want to shout from the rooftops and we would happily shout with you :) As to granting to personal friends and favorites, this is why in fact the double blind system needs to be instituted. One day Dmentia, Thorne and I faced the fact we might feel BAD if we ever had to give a bad review to a friend, and therefore get tempted to give them a good review. By having it be blind, who has tested, and as blind as possible who you are testing for, one can struggle to not fall prey to the granting the gold seal to personal friends and favorites. It is the best that can be done. We all have friends. We all have feelings. No one likes to hurt your friend. But we can recognize early on the temptations there, and steel ourselves for the battles ahead that each of us, internally, will face in time. As to why this has been a big secret... it is not :) But everything must start someplace. This started with a private talk between a few people, each of which prior to that talk had been somewhat acting as a vigilante in a way, trying to do something on their own about Quality... each in his own way. The common denominator in it is they all talked to me. I then began to try to focus them, get them thinking down the same paths, thinking less like vigilantes, and more focussing on how we can accomplish raising quality standards with an achievable set of goals by working together as an organized team... and thus grew the idea for a Guild. Thorne began the quality movement ... and I was willing to act as a conduit of communications since I know others who might feel the same way, and a way to keep narrowing the focus down to what the real goal was. So, for a period of time, when things were still being thought through, and make no mistake, they are STILL evolving and being thought through, by necessity it was private talks. When it became apparent to us that certain people on staff here felt so threatened by this that they might actually go so far as to wish to ban anyone involved (clearly they misunderstand the intent of the effort), we also have had to go deep deep underground too for a time. In these dangerous days, how else could it be? The goal though defined the intent. Going public, and going public as fast as we could manage to do so, soon as we had a legitimate goal and purpose and idea worked out. Much like in most things in life, for instance a cure for Cancer, you might not hear about it the second the chemist, and biochemist, and biologist put their heads together to compare notes and say, "by george, we may have something here... lets do a few experiments to see..." but make no mistake, the second they are fairly certain they have something, that same small fraternity of scientists would move to publish FAST... not only to share the wonderful news, but to establish credibility.