Poser is still a very viable format-there's still a lot of us poser users in the world! I've dropped $200 at another store, just this month because they work hard to provide both** poser **and DS format!

Vendors tend to create for what is selling. We do have many vendors who still create for Poser. And we do encourage everyone who can to create for both. But we cannot dictate what the vendors choose to do. I too would like to see more Poser support.

Yes, often sellers and also customers tend to follow the trend, which is bad because, not only do we risk to have a market totally monopolized by one single program and kind of "puppets", but also limit our freedom to espand on other possibilities. Imagine a 3d world only full of G3F, it would be boring to me.

I will personally still create also for Poser, as a seller point of view to me is of course essential the economic gain, but as an artist much more it is the freedom I have. Smith Micro is damn good at letting us wild free, this really boosts my creativity

As much as I adore pizza, I would be tired to have it daily, at every meal.

Unfortunately Genesis appears to be 'flavour of the month' and until that changes the Poser customer will have to live in hope. Meanwhile vendors eagerly follow the fashion without realising that they affect their own sales by ignoring a large part of the market, a point well-made by Tempesta3D. No doubt most of us have heard the arguements that you cannot create for both, i.e. Genesis and Poser, or the difficulties in converting one to the other. Yes! There are problems, but not so hard that they cannot be overcome! If thats the case, how is it that the vast majority of products at www.hivewire3d.com are available for Daz and Poser? Sadly Renderosity appears to be following the trend rather than catering to the larger market and that's a pity because I've purchased here for a long time, even to the point of buying Prime membership this year, which is a mistake I won't repeat in the future.

Thank you Mythocentric I believe that is not an issue with what Renderosity wants, but what the sellers are doing recentely. I am usually a black sheep and like to go swim against the current. This often leads me to reach the land all tired while others, who follow the current, are enjoying themselves probably with more results in economic terms LOL

But Poser is very alive to me.

Another thing: it is possible indeed to make things for both the programs, in fact my latest Dawn character was Poser only, but I got requests for a Daz version of it, which I take time to learn and do. It is about us, content creators, and only us, where we want to go with this, what we want do and how. This thread and many similar ones tell me that the Poser community is asking us to keep doing things and again, for how much I adore pizza I would love to don't have it on my dish over and over and over.

Especially if the pizza chain ends up monopolizing all my meals, deciding if I can put extra cheese in it or not, telling me that ham is not sexy anymore or maybe one day even blocking my access to the pizzeria even if I am starving, because the pizzaiolo will decide if I can eat or not.

Think about it... The Artists world (not the economic interests behind that) is good because is about freedom of expressions, this is my main motivation: to feel free to create, no matter if I use daz, poser, a crayon of my lil nephew or whatever. The more diversity the better, nobody controls nobody else an we are all happy and free to use whatever we like most.

Hi Tempesta3D! I'm not against vendors creating products solely for Daz Studio or for Poser for that matter, although I am a Poser user almost exclusively because I find Studio somewhat obscure and awkward to use. However the people over at Hivewire3D do offer the best of both worlds, usually in the same product and that can only benefit the market at large. What I probably should have made clearer is the buyers perception of the way Renderosity is heading and that is headlong towards Daz. From my own point of view when I pop in to purchase stuff and find that the 'For you (?)' area of the site offers me nothing but Genesis with the sole exception of one Poser tutorial, despite me buying Poser products almost exclusively (I thinks I've probably bought around 4 or 5 Daz models over the years) I, like anyone, begin to think that Renderosity have either lost the plot, don't really care or, worst are trying to push me towards Daz Studio! As I mentioned before, I bought Prime membership this year for the first time in a good while and looked forward to building up my catalogue of models. That dream soon fizzled out when I had to start ploughing my way through seemingly endless Genesis products to find the buried Poser gems. I doesn't help when you see some of the superb outfits being produced for Genesis much of which I would certainly buy if a Poser version was available. Sad to say, they're not so thats a sale lost. Add up all those disgruntled buyers and thats a lot of dollars. Not a good situation in a highly competative market and one thats very hard to recover from. As I said, the keyword here is perception and the perception appears to be that Renderosity has gone too far and lost the balance of products it used to do so well. Neither is it helpful that we've just lost another major player in the form of RuntimeDNA which has been subsumed by the Daz corporate maw, who have incidentally quietly discarded a good few DNA (Poser-based) vendors in the process! OK, its early days yet and I'm not about to predict death and destruction, but I do believe it is time for Renderosity and its vendors to pause and think about the future and where they want it to go! Its too late to weep about things when the rug has been pulled from under you because you thought the short term was the whole thing!

Dear Mythocentric you said it perfectly in your deep post. I have a lot to say about the PS and DS argument because unfortunately touches base with me. I was also at Rdna so to me it is a very present situation. What I can say is that, honestly, things are really complicated and messed up from when the big companies started to go in two different directions.

For us, content creators, and for sites like this one, it was total chaos. I can surely say that Hivewire is doing well to promote both with characters that work also in both programs, while Daz and SM have V4 like last compatible figure and then they split and we all go crazy figuring out what works where, making tons of different MATs, morphs, adjusting wiggies and dresses...

It doesn't help that Daz is exiting daily with bazillions of versions of roughly the same puppets like The Girl 327, but really pushing the content sales, while SM gave us Pauline and, to be honest, it is not very loved and I am one of the very few that does anything with her.

I totally get your point of view, being also a buyer myeslf, but when you said "Renderosity has gone too far and lost the balance of products it used to do so well." it is actually because the balance is now shifted all in one direction only and not because Renderosity is pushing us to do so.

For us, Poser lovers, V4 and Dawn are what is left so far. I do this as a main job and I am top seller from many years doing mainly Poser stuff so I can surely say that, so far, Poser is well alive still.

It is frustrating to see all the pretty clothes and shoes to only fit one categoy of puppets that we cannot play with! Feels like when I try to go shop in those fancy places where the clothes size is only baby size and I curse a lot LOL because curvaceous ladies like me cannot enter in the darn pretty dress that is only made for really skinny ladies

But I get why sellers and stores try to push in the other direction, having budgets and expenses and taxes to deal with. Well, I have those too, unfortunately, but I told you I am a black sheep and maybe not a very bright one either And even a stubborn goat like me is using Daz on and off from last year, because it's what buyers are asking the most it seems.

I dream that either Sm and Daz will get back together making compatible items again because, like I said in my previous post, nobody can benefit from a monopolized program, especially one that tends to be controlling and full of crazy rules (even if, ironically, it's given free), or that SM, that finally now has his own forum which is also very alive, moves to create a very good puppet that we can all love.

It is a very important matter for all of us, I thank you for bringing this out.

Hello again Tempesta3D, As you so correctly put it moves like the one by Daz on RDNA can only result in chaos and many people, like yourself, suffer as a result and it’s good that such actions as a result of Corporations like Daz are made public knowledge. However Daz is not the only player. Renderosity itself has a major role to play and the perception (that word again) is that Renderosity is playing to the Daz gameplan. That’s not a good position (except from the Daz viewpoint) for anyone to occupy and strongly indicates a limited, short-term outlook when its eyes should be on its long-term plans in the aftermath. Renderosity has a large part to play in the market and rightly sells products for both formats, though at the present time a potential buyer would find that difficult to believe with the emphasis given to Genesis, etc. That’s why I say Renderosity has lost the balance it used to have. I presume that other Poser users on the forum are already experienced in negotiating the site and are well capable of hunting down the items they want eventually, but to a buyer new to the market (and Renderosity!) the result is, to put it mildly, disappointing and disappointed buyers doesn’t make for sales. Sadly, I think that’s what it comes down to – money spelled out with capital dollar signs! The Corporate mind, as history proves time and again, is notoriously blinkered as long as the money is rolling in. Until the flood becomes a trickle because you’ve alienated a large percentage of your market in the process! Pretty much the same for those vendors who take the same short-term view. Just to illustrate how that resolves from my point of view – During May I spent approximately $57 at Renderosity. During the same period I spent over $250 at Hivewire! The reason for that is stupidly simple! I couldn’t find what I wanted at Renderosity so, like many other people I suspect, I went elsewhere! As you say it would be good if Daz and SM settled their differences but I’m afraid that a dream is what it will remain because of one simple fact. Daz is hellbent on monopoly! It’s very aggressive marketing strategy and recent actions prove that! How sad a comment it is to say that a lot of people will just sit back and allow it to happen. Does anyone really believe that the former owners of RDNA, safe in the comfort of their newly-acquired wealth, are bemoaning the loss of those vendors discarded in the pursuit of profit because they didn’t comply with the Daz Genesis mindset? My dream is that Renderosity (and its vendors) will remember that both Poser and Genesis have equal validity and give them equal billing in the marketplace and restore its former balance!

I must admit that as far as figures go I don’t usually give Pauline a thought. Poser itself is an excellent program (despite its little quirks!) let down by SM content which in my perception are aged and not really relevant in today’s market. It’s been argued elsewhere that backwards-compatability makes that inevitable, but there has to come a point where that becomes an excuse for failing to update content which is outstripped by the program which uses it. V4 too can be correctly seen as an older figure but remains, thanks to people like yourself, a major figure in the market. I must admit that out of 70 Gb+ of content I have in my runtimes, 40% of that is for V4! Dawn (and her sibling morphs Diva), I have great hopes for. Given the support by longer-sighted vendors I believe that she could become a worthy companion, or possible successor to V4. Again though, that depends on the few wiser vendors breaking out of the rut they’ve created for themselves and doing something about it!

At which point I will leave it. Apologies to Lyne, the OP for monopolising the thread unintentionally. She’s raised a very important subject which needs to be addressed and hopefully other contributors, both vendors and buyers, will find their voice and join in.

As one black sheep to another, (I’m the only artist in a family of labourers and manual workers going back to the ark!), I wish you well in your chosen career. It’s worth remembering that when all the dust has settled and the various combatants have crawled off to nurse their wounds and mourn they’re losses, we sheep will still be standing here quietly biding our time as always!

While I can perfectly understand vendors following the market trend believing that this will bring them the best reward for their work, and they may well be right in the short term, in the longer term this may well be wrong for everyone. On another site a vendor has stated that products for SM figures don't sell. Perhaps one reason for this is that, that part of the market was allowed to wither and die. Users were forced into the arms of V4/M4 and that market now seems rather saturated. Hence vendors are now deserting poser entirely and creating for the only new market segment, G3. But where will they go once that segment gets saturated? Wait for G4 I suppose. But if I take the example of Tempesta3d, here is a vendor who has created content for a wide range of figures. I'm guessing I'm not typical, I like to use as many different figures as I can. Looking through my runtimes I have only about 4 Tempesta characters for V4 and 1 for M4, while I've got 36 for other figures, from Miki 2 to Pauline, via Dawn, Dusk, Anastasia, Scarlet, Miki4 and various Alyson's. (By the way, if anyone is looking for a great Miki 4 character check out Tempesta's Patrizia!) So as far as getting my money it's been a wise commercial decision of Tempesta not to concentrate on the popular figures.

A valid point well made. While the moneys coming in I think most people are happy to go with the flow. But I have to pose the question – how many of those vendors are capable of thinking in a business sense? Not many I suspect and of those even less who can view the overall picture in the long term needed to remain successful. That’s a point I believe Daz recognises and, as Tempesta has made clear, is churning out new figures (or more accurately, variations on existing figures) to keep the flow going. While this may add greatly to the Daz coffers in the short term it can only result in the market becoming saturated as you say. Where to then? G4, G5 and so on? We’ve already seen how ready Daz is (via RDNA) to dump any vendor who doesn’t comply with its own worldview. It would be nice to think that some of them would even remember Poser and remember that there is an outlet for their talent. That, of course, depends on the fact that the many Poser users out there have stayed around rather than looking elsewhere for content! Personally I doubt if they will. There are others out there. I’ve already mentioned Hivewire3D, not because I have any connection with the company but because I’m a very satisfied customer of a company who supplies what I want and gives me a choice of platforms in doing so. Fortunately we still have vendors like Tempesta, to whom I would add SAV (studioartvartanian) who produce items cross-platform (via multiple re-fits, etc) very successfully and is the only reason I now visit Renderosity, in addition to Mihrelle and her superb V4 characters. There are others out there not willing to follow the lemmings and they deserve our gratitude. I can only hope that Renderosity removes its blinkers sooner rather than later and shows its appreciation too by putting their Poser output where it belongs, on an equal footing with the rest. It’s easy to believe that Renderosity can only sell what its vendors produce. That’s a falsehood. Renderosity is here to make money and it’s Renderosity who decides what it sells, not the vendors. Yes! It’s a big market but it’s a market with a limited amount of money to spend on its preferred platform. If that section of the market is ignored as it apparently is at present, it will go elsewhere to Renderosity’s detriment. That’s a very simple equation which seems to have been missed by those who should know better!

Mythocentric posted at 5:08PM Sun, 12 June 2016 - #4271996

A valid point well made. While the moneys coming in I think most people are happy to go with the flow. But I have to pose the question – how many of those vendors are capable of thinking in a business sense? Not many I suspect and of those even less who can view the overall picture in the long term needed to remain successful. That’s a point I believe Daz recognises and, as Tempesta has made clear, is churning out new figures (or more accurately, variations on existing figures) to keep the flow going. While this may add greatly to the Daz coffers in the short term it can only result in the market becoming saturated as you say. Where to then? G4, G5 and so on? We’ve already seen how ready Daz is (via RDNA) to dump any vendor who doesn’t comply with its own worldview. It would be nice to think that some of them would even remember Poser and remember that there is an outlet for their talent. That, of course, depends on the fact that the many Poser users out there have stayed around rather than looking elsewhere for content! Personally I doubt if they will. There are others out there. I’ve already mentioned Hivewire3D, not because I have any connection with the company but because I’m a very satisfied customer of a company who supplies what I want and gives me a choice of platforms in doing so. Fortunately we still have vendors like Tempesta, to whom I would add SAV (studioartvartanian) who produce items cross-platform (via multiple re-fits, etc) very successfully and is the only reason I now visit Renderosity, in addition to Mihrelle and her superb V4 characters. There are others out there not willing to follow the lemmings and they deserve our gratitude. I can only hope that Renderosity removes its blinkers sooner rather than later and shows its appreciation too by putting their Poser output where it belongs, on an equal footing with the rest. It’s easy to believe that Renderosity can only sell what its vendors produce. That’s a falsehood. Renderosity is here to make money and it’s Renderosity who decides what it sells, not the vendors. Yes! It’s a big market but it’s a market with a limited amount of money to spend on its preferred platform. If that section of the market is ignored as it apparently is at present, it will go elsewhere to Renderosity’s detriment. That’s a very simple equation which seems to have been missed by those who should know better!

I think it's actually misguided to think that vendors and rendo itself are being lemmings. The fact remains that the requests for content, and as a result what shows up in the store come from customers themselves. So in threads like this, it's actually better to place the blame where it needs to go; not at rendo, the vendors or even DAZ.

It lays squarely at SM's feet. As customers of Poser, you should have been pressuring them to make sure they stay up to date not only with technology, but also with the tools that vendors need to continue producting Poser content to keep you needs met. They haven't done so, poser users haven't taken SM to task for it, a good number haven't upgraded to new versions and quite simply the newer content hasn't been up to snuff for Poser users to continue using poser and have switched to DS to take advantage of new content. That's not DAZ, vendors or Rendo forcing users to do anything, that's simply SM (and their customers allowing them to do so) sleeping at the wheel while continuing to collect upgrade fees for little value and maybe some tweaks to the render engine.. but certainly nothing to keep the content developers competitive.

So instead of constantly creating threads moaning about why there's fewer Poser content, how about posting on SM's official poser forum and writing letters to SM telling them to give vendors solid tools for making figure-based content, and the other things you are mistakenly asking rendo to do for you? Also ask SM to take a page from Daz and make their tools vendor-oriented and make sure real vendors, not semi power users, are part of the development and testing process so that they can get feedback from those that will provide content in stores for you. That's really a better use of your time and far more productive. These threads are beating a dead horse because you are constantly complaining to the wrong people for assistance.

Note: If you do post a thread there asking for this, be prepared to be yelled at and silenced by those forum people because they feel nothing is wrong with what is going on.. which is another issue of why things are why they are now. It was certainly the case if you asked for better figures in the Poser forum here.

If you are going to take a shot the usual advice is to take a deep breath and hold it before squeezing the trigger to ensure you don't go wide of the mark. Even then it's vital to make sure that you're aiming at the right target in the first place! In what way is SM responsible for Renderosity's failure to maintain the balance of products in it's marketplace? Vendors have been making products for Poser for a good number of years and still are. No complaint there. To claim that Poser content isn't up to snuff is frankly ridiculous and I can only assume that your view is that Poser users stick to SM's content and don't actually buy content and I am sure there are a number of vendors here at |Renderosity who would happily put you through the wringer for dismissing their products with such disparaging bias. It's already been pointed out that SM's own content output hasn't kept pace with the program but there many vendors who have worked very hard to address that failure and done so with great success.The problem as far as Renderosity is concerned is that buyers are going elsewhere because they cannot find them here. The reason is that the balance of products towards Daz is now so heavily in Daz's favour that it is becoming untenable that Renderosity can maintain a fair marketplace which suits all prospective buyers which it claims to do. In the face of aggressive maketing stratagy from Daz, and remember that includes vendor-creation tools which tie the creators exclusively to Daz, its a situation which is at best untenable and at worst unsustainable if it is to survive. Early days yet but as always, the longer a problem is ignored the worst it becomes. All thats being asked in this thread is that Renderosity address that inbalance and correct it. No ones has suggested that one platform should take preference over the other either way otherwise the only outcome is the monopoly that Daz are clearly striving for. Renderosity sells product for both platforms, but until they make that clear and present both with equal unbiased favour there is and will remain a problem. Frankly I'd rather see Renderosity in business as a successful independent concern rather than see it lose money to the point of becoming absorbed by default by the Daz conglomerate! Lemmings? I believe that to be an accurate simile. Running blindly on with the mob without a thought for the future for as long as the money is coming in is great for the short term, but what do you do when you suddenly realise that the only thing beneath you is air?

Mythocentric posted at 11:14PM Mon, 13 June 2016 - #4272403

If you are going to take a shot the usual advice is to take a deep breath and hold it before squeezing the trigger to ensure you don't go wide of the mark. Even then it's vital to make sure that you're aiming at the right target in the first place! In what way is SM responsible for Renderosity's failure to maintain the balance of products in it's marketplace?

It's a false assumption to assume that Rendo has any responsibility to maintain a balance of products. Rendo is a business providing product that is in demand. If there is more of a demand for DS products, then that's the market at work because customers demand those products. If the Poser items aren't selling, it's not up to rendo to add products that aren't selling or force vendors to make more poser products because that's what you're asking. That's not how business or the marketplace works. And that's because the poser products doesn't have the appeal as the DS items, thus you need to take that up with SM, not rendo, vendors or DAZ.

Vendors have been making products for Poser for a good number of years and still are. No complaint there.

So there shouldn't be an issue then. What is the purpose of your posting then?

To claim that Poser content isn't up to snuff is frankly ridiculous.

Not really, otherwise you wouldn't complain about the abundance of DS products.

and I can only assume that your view is that Poser users stick to SM's content and don't actually buy content and I am sure there are a number of vendors here at |Renderosity who would happily put you through the wringer for dismissing their products with such disparaging bias.

They wouldn't as they are beginning to either create DS products or make sure their products work in DS because that's were the sales are driving. The vendors themselves are saying that Poser users are buying less; I think that's the part you're not getting. Customer drive the market and vendors have to pay their bills.

It's already been pointed out that SM's own content output hasn't kept pace with the program but there many vendors who have worked very hard to address that failure and done so with great success.The problem as far as Renderosity is concerned is that buyers are going elsewhere because they cannot find them here.

And where are they going? RuntimeDNA? Perhaps content paradise? I think you're in denial about the marketplace. There are some that won't work with DS that's true, but it doesn't change the fact that the poser content market is contracting, otherwise you wouldn't post about there is an abundance of DS products, correct?

The reason is that the balance of products towards Daz is now so heavily in Daz's favour that it is becoming untenable that Renderosity can maintain a fair marketplace which suits all prospective buyers which it claims to do.

And where does that come from? The customers' purchasing power, and the things I've previously said.

In the face of aggressive maketing stratagy from Daz, and remember that includes vendor-creation tools which tie the creators exclusively to Daz, its a situation which is at best untenable and at worst unsustainable if it is to survive.

So when poser was the only program in town, they weren't a monopoly? Of course they were. But in a free market society there is competition and if you don't provide the tools to help your users succeed, the market will shift toward the solution customers demand.. not a monopoly at all and to be honest, it's not like Poser users weren't happily using DAZ products before. However, because the tech in poser doesn't have all the features as in DS the figure tech has pretty much stagnated as the most popular figure is over 10 years old.

Early days yet but as always, the longer a problem is ignored the worst it becomes. All thats being asked in this thread is that Renderosity address that inbalance and correct it.

How? Force vendors to make certain items? Tell customers they can't buy certain items? As I said you're taking your complaint to the wrong company and your request makes no sense. Customers drive the market and the vendors supply that need through Rendo the brokerage. If you want more poser items, it has to be profitable for vendors to make more content. That comes from customers getting excited to buy poser content.. which comes from Smith micro. They're the ones that have to provide the tools and tech to get everyone excited... not a brokerage.

No ones has suggested that one platform should take preference over the other either way otherwise the only outcome is the monopoly that Daz are clearly striving for.

Actually they have by complaining that they don't like the fact that there is more DS products these days, yet had no complaint when there was a shortage of DS items (or items that were actually tested in DS).

Renderosity sells product for both platforms, but until they make that clear and present both with equal unbiased favour there is and will remain a problem.

They are doing their part by selling what vendors provide to them to sell. They can't sell what they don't have. And vendors won't make items that won't pay their rent. I think you're missing how a marketplace works. Things just don't appear in a store just because you want them there.

Frankly I'd rather see Renderosity in business as a successful independent concern rather than see it lose money to the point of becoming absorbed by default by the Daz conglomerate!

And they are. But they're a brokerage that sells items provided by vendors. Once again vendors provide items that are in demand from customers....

Lemmings? I believe that to be an accurate simile. Running blindly on with the mob without a thought for the future for as long as the money is coming in is great for the short term, but what do you do when you suddenly realise that the only thing beneath you is air?

I think denial is more in line with your post as the DAZ marketplace had been making their money innovating and improving their product while not much has gone on in the Poser figure front and the main seller is a 10 year old figure made by the same some company many here trash. This is why the marketplace is selling what it is now, and RDNA closed and their owners are making DS items after SM left them high and dry with badly bending Pauline and her "merchant resource" status looking for someone to fix her to people could actually start making content. I would suggest you learn how brokerages work, because from your statements you would run yours based on emotion and quickly would be bankrupt and out of business.

Mythocentric posted at 9:23AM Tue, 14 June 2016 - #4272403

If you are going to take a shot the usual advice is to take a deep breath and hold it before squeezing the trigger to ensure you don't go wide of the mark. Even then it's vital to make sure that you're aiming at the right target in the first place! In what way is SM responsible for Renderosity's failure to maintain the balance of products in it's marketplace? Vendors have been making products for Poser for a good number of years and still are. No complaint there. To claim that Poser content isn't up to snuff is frankly ridiculous and I can only assume that your view is that Poser users stick to SM's content and don't actually buy content and I am sure there are a number of vendors here at |Renderosity who would happily put you through the wringer for dismissing their products with such disparaging bias.

Rendo is not capable of dictating what the ratio of new products are because the vendors are not Rendo employees, they are independent contractors, and they are going to make what they think will give them a decent return on their time. Products geared toward Poser are not doing as well as ones geared towards DAZ, that was not the case in the past.

I think what is going on (and I can't prove it because the statistics do not appear to be available on the internet) is that new casual 3D program users are mostly heading to DAZ or Blender because they don't see any benefit to paying for Poser. The Poser community isn't growing, the DAZ community is. Sadly I cannot back that up with verifiable facts except on the Poser side: One only has to look at SM's figures (it's a public company) to see that their sales are way down all over the map (their main revenue does not come from Poser).

Sadly the Poser market seems to be contacting, and Rendo isn't going to be able to do a thing to change that. SM either from the looks of it.

Truespace anybody?

I actually reinstalled Truespace recently (this week). I had a magazine disc which had a copy. I wish Microsoft would have just made it open source rather than buying it and killing it. The danger is throwing support behind one format. Let's use Truespace as the example. Say Microsoft purchased Daz or even Poser. They have the money (look at what they just spent for LinkedIn) to buy either or both companies. Microsoft might use the technology a bit but more than likely they'd let it die and that would be the end (as Microsoft has done with many software and hardware companies).

On a side note I had a vendor tell me D/S was easier to make products for... which I'd think you'd still have to make a set extra materials for Iray in addition to the normal ones (I see many Genesis products charging extra for the Iray materials).

Given the current push toward VR, I'd expect to see one of the two suddenly make a push toward putting their figures (in a certain format) in VR games or demos. Actually if you could get either software program to work in VR, posing and moving things around from inside a scene would be pretty interesting. Imagine being in a stonemason scene moving figures around to where you want them to finally end up; however both software programs would need major interface changes to actually be able to work this way.

Male_M3dia posted at 1:14AM Fri, 17 June 2016 - #4272426

Mythocentric posted at 11:14PM Mon, 13 June 2016 - #4272403

If you are going to take a shot the usual advice is to take a deep breath and hold it before squeezing the trigger to ensure you don't go wide of the mark. Even then it's vital to make sure that you're aiming at the right target in the first place! In what way is SM responsible for Renderosity's failure to maintain the balance of products in it's marketplace?

It's a false assumption to assume that Rendo has any responsibility to maintain a balance of products. Rendo is a business providing product that is in demand. If there is more of a demand for DS products, then that's the market at work because customers demand those products. If the Poser items aren't selling, it's not up to rendo to add products that aren't selling or force vendors to make more poser products because that's what you're asking. That's not how business or the marketplace works. And that's because the poser products doesn't have the appeal as the DS items, thus you need to take that up with SM, not rendo, vendors or DAZ.

Vendors have been making products for Poser for a good number of years and still are. No complaint there.

So there shouldn't be an issue then. What is the purpose of your posting then?

To claim that Poser content isn't up to snuff is frankly ridiculous.

Not really, otherwise you wouldn't complain about the abundance of DS products.

and I can only assume that your view is that Poser users stick to SM's content and don't actually buy content and I am sure there are a number of vendors here at |Renderosity who would happily put you through the wringer for dismissing their products with such disparaging bias.

They wouldn't as they are beginning to either create DS products or make sure their products work in DS because that's were the sales are driving. The vendors themselves are saying that Poser users are buying less; I think that's the part you're not getting. Customer drive the market and vendors have to pay their bills.

It's already been pointed out that SM's own content output hasn't kept pace with the program but there many vendors who have worked very hard to address that failure and done so with great success.The problem as far as Renderosity is concerned is that buyers are going elsewhere because they cannot find them here.

And where are they going? RuntimeDNA? Perhaps content paradise? I think you're in denial about the marketplace. There are some that won't work with DS that's true, but it doesn't change the fact that the poser content market is contracting, otherwise you wouldn't post about there is an abundance of DS products, correct?

The reason is that the balance of products towards Daz is now so heavily in Daz's favour that it is becoming untenable that Renderosity can maintain a fair marketplace which suits all prospective buyers which it claims to do.

And where does that come from? The customers' purchasing power, and the things I've previously said.

In the face of aggressive maketing stratagy from Daz, and remember that includes vendor-creation tools which tie the creators exclusively to Daz, its a situation which is at best untenable and at worst unsustainable if it is to survive.

So when poser was the only program in town, they weren't a monopoly? Of course they were. But in a free market society there is competition and if you don't provide the tools to help your users succeed, the market will shift toward the solution customers demand.. not a monopoly at all and to be honest, it's not like Poser users weren't happily using DAZ products before. However, because the tech in poser doesn't have all the features as in DS the figure tech has pretty much stagnated as the most popular figure is over 10 years old.

Early days yet but as always, the longer a problem is ignored the worst it becomes. All thats being asked in this thread is that Renderosity address that inbalance and correct it.

How? Force vendors to make certain items? Tell customers they can't buy certain items? As I said you're taking your complaint to the wrong company and your request makes no sense. Customers drive the market and the vendors supply that need through Rendo the brokerage. If you want more poser items, it has to be profitable for vendors to make more content. That comes from customers getting excited to buy poser content.. which comes from Smith micro. They're the ones that have to provide the tools and tech to get everyone excited... not a brokerage.

No ones has suggested that one platform should take preference over the other either way otherwise the only outcome is the monopoly that Daz are clearly striving for.

Actually they have by complaining that they don't like the fact that there is more DS products these days, yet had no complaint when there was a shortage of DS items (or items that were actually tested in DS).

Renderosity sells product for both platforms, but until they make that clear and present both with equal unbiased favour there is and will remain a problem.

They are doing their part by selling what vendors provide to them to sell. They can't sell what they don't have. And vendors won't make items that won't pay their rent. I think you're missing how a marketplace works. Things just don't appear in a store just because you want them there.

Frankly I'd rather see Renderosity in business as a successful independent concern rather than see it lose money to the point of becoming absorbed by default by the Daz conglomerate!

And they are. But they're a brokerage that sells items provided by vendors. Once again vendors provide items that are in demand from customers....

Lemmings? I believe that to be an accurate simile. Running blindly on with the mob without a thought for the future for as long as the money is coming in is great for the short term, but what do you do when you suddenly realise that the only thing beneath you is air?

I think denial is more in line with your post as the DAZ marketplace had been making their money innovating and improving their product while not much has gone on in the Poser figure front and the main seller is a 10 year old figure made by the same some company many here trash. This is why the marketplace is selling what it is now, and RDNA closed and their owners are making DS items after SM left them high and dry with badly bending Pauline and her "merchant resource" status looking for someone to fix her to people could actually start making content. I would suggest you learn how brokerages work, because from your statements you would run yours based on emotion and quickly would be bankrupt and out of business.

Is it really worth the effort of replying, because you appear to be determined to miss the point of this thread? There is no complaint about vendors producing products for Daz, Poser or any other format you care to name! Apart from yourself no one has suggested that vendors should be forced to create product for a particular format. What has been suggested is that any reasonably competent vendor should have no difficulty creating for both formats, and many do, and thus widening their market and profits! The reason for this thread is that Renderosity appears to have become overbalanced in the direction of Daz without giving thought for those people who prefer Poser, and there are a lot of them out there despite your claim to the contrary. Witness the success of sites like Hivewire who manage to produce content which is mostly, in the main, available for both formats. Its also worth mentioning that that site now sells content from former RDNA vendors who were dumped by Daz (Bought out by Daz and not simply closed as you claim) because they preferred to stay with Poser (and one of the reasons given for the buyout was that Daz intended to redress the balance by expanding its Poser content!) and, of late, former Renderosity vendors who have become dissatisfied with the way their (Poser) output is being sidelined by this site. Renderosity' latest newsletter claimed that it is THE (their caps!) site for Poser content. A small start in the right direction but of little help when that content is buried almost beyond finding. Perhaps it may be worth your while going back and reading the whole of this thread, this time with an open, unbiased mind before presenting a reasoned response rather than shooting yourself in the other foot!

Mythocentric posted at 9:55PM Thu, 16 June 2016 - #4272693

What has been suggested is that any reasonably competent vendor should have no difficulty creating for both formats, and many do, and thus widening their market and profits!

It's easy for someone that doesn't to make products to assume, but as a vendor that used to make products in both formats, V4 and Genesis, years before most people here, this statement is absolutely not true. This is especially not true in light that both platforms use different tech and formats, especially for custom morphs and are UV incompatible. The gap is simply too wide now to be profitable. The most popular figure now for DS users as you have seen is Genesis 3, and there's no easy way to make figure that covers that and another generation, not without a complicated process of copying and cleaning up morphs which you need an expensive tool like modo and zbrush to accomplish in light of no update to the tool currently to do this in DS. And making for both platforms only marginally increase sales. DAZ vendors have already tried this model and it wasn't that workable when they used the DSON importer, making and rigging items from scratch is even less workable.

The reason for this thread is that Renderosity appears to have become overbalanced in the direction of Daz without giving thought for those people who prefer Poser, and there are a lot of them out there despite your claim to the contrary.

But how can they give a thought about Poser users when the figures don't work there? I'm sure you're addressing the Genesis 3 products? Once again, that's not something rendo can address without supressing a market and vendor products. Once again customers request these products, and only SM can address getting vendors tools to address this. And to be honest, Hivewire isn't a good example as most of the vendors haven't touched that figure after the loss of sales with the release of dawn about two years ago. Customers didn't want it, vendors lost sales (and those vendors at the time only made Poser only-versions here not cross platform, except for one or two exceptions). Their animals probably sell better than the figure content, but most of the major vendors found that creating a product twice doesn't make up for sales

Witness the success of sites like Hivewire who manage to produce content which is mostly, in the main, available for both formats.

There's vendors at hivewire that do it, but a good chunk of those vendors now are actually part time novice forum users selling products, not established vendors. If you check those threads, you'll quickly see them stumble over how to make their products work in both platforms. Those users are the only ones that are capable of doing cross platform because they have other jobs to supplement their income so they can try to make such items.

Its also worth mentioning that that site now sells content from former RDNA vendors who were dumped by Daz (Bought out by Daz and not simply closed as you claim) because they preferred to stay with Poser (and one of the reasons given for the buyout was that Daz intended to redress the balance by expanding its Poser content!)

Not true. Please don't spread misinformation. Vendors like mortemvetus are at DAZ and they're making Poser items, DAZ even featured him in a sale a few days ago. Star is there as well as Chip and other poser characters. If they aren't there it's because either they chose not to go to DAZ. Also it also should be said that a good chunk of RDNA vendors were ALREADY at DAZ as PAs, so their stores moved over. I know there was at least one exception, but I won't get into that, you can do some digging and find his thread here complaining about it (which also basically showed why his products weren't brought over).

and, of late, former Renderosity vendors who have become dissatisfied with the way their (Poser) output is being sidelined by this site.

Can't answer to this portion though, but i'm going to say you're speculating about poser content statement. Hivewire has a WAAAY smaller sales scope so a vendor would be shooting themselves in the foot to move to a site way smaller visibility.

Perhaps it may be worth your while going back and reading the whole of this thread, this time with an open, unbiased mind before presenting a reasoned response rather than shooting yourself in the other foot!

Actually I've read the whole thread and have been reading this thread for a while. This is why it is so easy to dissect your posts. You're simply not understanding how the market place works despite being told several times.

In the end, it all comes down to this: Money talks, everything else walks.

The problem that Poser VENDORS have to face is that the market there is based around a figure that's now over 10 years old. As many have noted, there's nothing technically wrong with Gen 4, and V4 works fine for most purposes. However, if you're a PA, there's no avoiding the fact that there are 10 years worth of competing products and freebies already out there. 10 years worth. So while there's a lot less that can be done with the figure that is going to be perceived as strikingly new and original, at the same time one has to compete against all the perfectly good Gen 4 products that are already mining the same niches. Add in the fact that the prices on much of that product has routinely been slashed to almost nothing and it's easy to see why the newer Genesis gene pools can be more attractive. Especially since the evidence seems to indicate that the DS user base is now larger than the Poser one.

That said, all of this really reflects less on Rendo and more on Smith Micro's general management of Poser: sharing a long ride on DAZ's Gen4's coattails, producing unpopular figure after unpopular figure for the base software and banking on a handful of superior features in their software to keep their market edge. Unfortunately for SM, the introduction of Iray has finally brought home how close the two programs have become in terms of quality, the list of "better" Poser features continues to shrink and the overwhelming support for Pauline here at Rendo... less than 50 products in six months... shows how poorly SM continues to understand the item that's at the very core of this business: the figure.

So tired of seeing this type of argument. New figures are nice but D/S basically becomes a forced upgrade with major figure changes (about every 2.5 to 3 years) of breaking a figure up and selling it in major piecemeal. Base figure free. Oh you want morphs and textures? Two purchases. Extra facial features? Another purchase. Muscle morphs? Again. Body morphs and head morphs? Two more. Creature morphs? Again. That outfit you liked so much for the previous character? Maybe we'll upgrade it and sell it again at full price. Creature teeth? Again. Ethnic morphs? And to top it off an HD version? And suddenly you've spent more than the cost of poser on one figure. If you paid full price of the figure and it's parts you might have spent more than two copies of the newest version of Poser Pro. For one figure. Oh did we mention you have to buy a pack to get the rest of the anatomy? And don't forget hair.

Sure there's more content for Genesis. Simply by the numbers of how the figure's broken up for sales. V7? The Girl 7? Aiko7? Morphs that at one time were much cheaper than they are now. Sure it's their business they can charge what they want... but remember all that content you purchased for D/S before it changed formats to .duf? And remember for awhile D/S wasn't free and some unlucky customers paid over $150 (or much more) only to have it go free months later? Happy? Sure! Take our money! I'd expect V8 to have hand morphs sold separately during it's release.

D/S users argue it's all about the figure not the software. It's the major theme of the people who keep coming back to argue. It's up to them to keep that economic idea rolling. Poser users talk about their software mainly because they enjoy using the software. Sure they want nice content too but Smith Micro has never really been the content maker. If you recall it was Efrontier who made the G2's and Miki, and Terai Yuki, and others. Paul and Pauline aren't fantastic. Agreed. But really neither are V7 and M7. Both have their flaws (as discussed in the D/S forums on Daz's website as well as others).

Right now vendors are trying to test the wind. For now there is more Daz content and more vendors willing to make Daz content because they view buying Poser as a high expense versus buying 1 (or more) characters per 2.5 to 3 years and recreating new content for those.

The core business is not the figure. If that were so Daz could sell (or give away) the worst and most buggy software and still succeed. We know this simply not true.

Kazam561 posted at 12:10AM Sat, 18 June 2016 - #4272844

So tired of seeing this type of argument. New figures are nice but D/S basically becomes a forced upgrade with major figure changes (about every 2.5 to 3 years) of breaking a figure up and selling it in major piecemeal. Base figure free. Oh you want morphs and textures? Two purchases. Extra facial features? Another purchase. Muscle morphs? Again. Body morphs and head morphs? Two more. Creature morphs? Again. That outfit you liked so much for the previous character? Maybe we'll upgrade it and sell it again at full price. Creature teeth? Again. Ethnic morphs? And to top it off an HD version? And suddenly you've spent more than the cost of poser on one figure. If you paid full price of the figure and it's parts you might have spent more than two copies of the newest version of Poser Pro. For one figure. Oh did we mention you have to buy a pack to get the rest of the anatomy? And don't forget hair.

And you're actually going to say this is worse for a new user to pay $170-500 for Poser (and its upgrades) and you STILL have to buy content? This is really a straw argument because no matter what software you buy, you're buying content irregardless. And you're paying the same prices. Sorry, but people need to let this argument go. And I'm sure the same people that used this argument has bought Anstasia, her her content, michelle and her content and morphs, antonia's morphs, dawn and her morphs, etc... and guess what? You've probably paid more that what you're trying to say DS users have and the clothes aren't easily compatible between the figures.

Sure there's more content for Genesis. Simply by the numbers of how the figure's broken up for sales. V7? The Girl 7? Aiko7? Morphs that at one time were much cheaper than they are now. Sure it's their business they can charge what they want... but remember all that content you purchased for D/S before it changed formats to .duf? And remember for awhile D/S wasn't free and some unlucky customers paid over $150 (or much more) only to have it go free months later? Happy? Sure! Take our money! I'd expect V8 to have hand morphs sold separately during it's release.

Let's see. The base morphs are basically are one price and you decide on which characters you want to buy. You're not forced to buy them all and the morphs work will all characters. As I said before, i'm sure poser users have bought other poser characters, their morphs,and content and paid the same price, so this argument is really a straw one.

D/S users argue it's all about the figure not the software. It's the major theme of the people who keep coming back to argue. It's up to them to keep that economic idea rolling. Poser users talk about their software mainly because they enjoy using the software. Sure they want nice content too but Smith Micro has never really been the content maker. If you recall it was Efrontier who made the G2's and Miki, and Terai Yuki, and others. Paul and Pauline aren't fantastic. Agreed. But really neither are V7 and M7. Both have their flaws (as discussed in the D/S forums on Daz's website as well as others).

And no figure is perfect yes, but M7 and V7 are supported because they are pretty good and Pauline and Paul (poor paul) have major flaws and the first products that came out for it were fixes because they were released broken as "merchant resources". That's a pretty big difference between the two.

Right now vendors are trying to test the wind. For now there is more Daz content and more vendors willing to make Daz content because they view buying Poser as a high expense versus buying 1 (or more) characters per 2.5 to 3 years and recreating new content for those.

What wind are they testing? Customers are asking for DS content and vendors are supplying that.

The core business is not the figure. If that were so Daz could sell (or give away) the worst and most buggy software and still succeed. We know this simply not true.

Their core business is content. That's why they can give away the software that makes the content and make money from the content produced. They can also use that money to fund their R&D to make new tech for their content. And that program is very good with the content development tools, figures and iray rendering. And the software had customers because it's actually good and NOT free, so people need to let that argument go as well.

I am sad to see the decline of poser support in recent times, I have over the years invested a lot of time and money into poser and despite several goes at using daz , I continue to like poser far more, it is much easier to use and in my opinion give much better end results. I can understand from the vendors view that G3 is the new market, and I see lots of stuff coming out for it, but a lot of that stuff is just re done from older v4 items and where as I used to have to add wish list items when I looked on the marketplace because there was just to much stuff I wanted, now I maybe see 1 or 2 items I am interested in, and often then see there daz only.

My spend on vender purchases has dropped from around $400 a month to around $10 now, I am sure there are many other poser users that are in the same place as me, and are not excited by the G3 figures or by daz studio, and have just stopped buying and like me use what they have already. I will continue to buy good poser content when it comes out and still support my favourite poser, v4 vendors when the release content

Glad I found this thread; I agree to these points. I'd started using Poser like 10 years ago or something like that - really enjoyed it, then went off to school for 3D modelling and animation. Picked Poser back up one day, and wanted to continue making cool stuff just for Aiko 3.0 -- I'd love to start making [free stuff, to be honest], as I'm still learning the modelling and textural process.

So I wandered the WWW Galaxy last night, ready to throw money at Renderosity, Daz3D, PoserPros[Addicts], anyone who's selling V3/A3 type merchant resource textures -- and there's nothing. All I'm finding are for newer models, the Genesis, and Victoria 7 and -- whatever. So long ago, I spent thousands on Poser products, and I'm walking back into the market being told that "hey that stuff is obsolete, buy you can buy ALL this brand new stuff."

Pretty disappointed. V4 and M4 was as far as I was willing to go back then, as rent and life expenses are more important, so now what? Start fresh? No. How can I? I might as well do what (I'm guessing many are, with the flooded figure market), and build my own stand-alone characters, so that I can offer clothing, and morph packages, for longer than a year or so.

With this being said, does anyone still use and appreciate the older models, like Aiko 3.0? I think there's something special about these figures, and they seemed, to me, to come from a time when it was about good content, good vendors, and great experiences. Now it just seems like a flood that's going to push people either backwards, or out of the market. I tried like mental last night, but I can no longer find some of my favourite vendors (ApoGraphix/Fenrissa; Aery Soul). I'd love to hear about where they've gone off to, but why?

Quality over quantity. But why would anyone care, when there's dollar signs dancing around? Just ridiculous.

Vicky Four is very much alive, well used (and abused wink, wink), and well liked. There are lots of folks who've invested a pile of money in her and aren't willing to give that up. There's a thread in the Poser forum entitled "Are people still using V4-M4". It's been going for a while now and shows that there's lot of love (does that make it sound weird and creepy?) for Vicky Four.

say what you like but most of vendors that I purchased from in the past no longer supports poser. I look through whats new and it is nearly impossible to find poser content. many are not marked as being for studio also, but the marketplace is insisting that they are marked now from what I have been told.

I see hostility in comments above and why should there be? the question that started this discussion was a simple question and also very true. it is personal preference to use poser and or use studio. through no fault of the poser bunch the marketplace is dominated by studio based products.

I have so much content "many gigs" that I will simply change old characters to SSS and keep on plugging along and apply new textures to old products also

not only is it hard to find poser content but these sorts of promo thumbnails make it even harder, as they don't specify which figure the product is for, forcing one to click on it to see. this thumbnail is near the top of today's offerings. ![Screen Shot 2016-07-11 at 8.39.24 PM.png](https://live.cdn.renderosity.com/forum/_legacy/forum_12374/thread_2902329/message_4275358/file_2a79ea27c279e471f4d180b08d62b00a.pn

It was easy to shop in the days when one could easily distinguish which character the item was for. M3 and M4 look different enough to tell, and V4 was distinctive. but not anymore.

I'm another Poser user who's sad about the lack of new Poser products in the 3D marketplace. I'm still using V4, K4, and other older models. I tried using Studio, but it was frustrating as I've been using Poser for 11 years. I don't want to have to learn a new program--it took me so long to get where I'm at. In addition, my renders in Poser look much better than my Daz Studio renders, and Poser renders so much faster.

I create artwork, which I sell for a living, so this change has hit me hard economically.