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(Last Updated: 2024 Sep 28 12:06 pm)
Subject: Vascularity for Poser 13?
Reminder that, while Poser Superfly can't work with displacements, it definitely works with normal maps, which IMHO would be better for all of this. Though admitedly harder to make.
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DeeceyArt posted at 6:05 PM Tue, 17 October 2023 - #4476411
That is great, you just saved me allot of work Cool ! Duuh I totally forgot about the Material Layers, how bad is that ! Now sure can save and load Partial materials, can go ahead and build up a vascularity that can be shared .... Saved my day !The above is presuming that your vascularity map is black and white, with black being no bump/displacement, and white or near white being areas that are raised.
Like Ohki said Displacements will not work on superfly, alternative Bump or normal maps but that is not a big deal to go ahead with.
so here quick setup shots for the secondary layer the first one with Displacement so a big NADA second and third with Bump from there we can go ahead Layer can be saved and loaded to any pre skinned figure that is just perfect .... just can't get over it to have overseen that, such a little thing ! Thanks DeeceyArt, this I call great participation.
Displacement DOES work in Superfly, just that you have to subdivide the model at LEAST three times, which will totally bog down the system.
Normal maps would be great too, but you'd still need to create an equivalent black and white "mask" to mask out areas where color and roughness should not appear.
AND ... if I remember correctly, material layers SHOULD work in Poser 11 and up, which makes it a better choice than python.
By default when you create a new material layer the PoserSurface node is in there. I prefer the Physical Surface node. Just add it and set it to SuperFly root and the PoserSurface will be ignored.
Consider layers also for makeup (eyeliners, lips, etc), tattoos, sweat, dirt, etc etc etc. Same principle, different little tricks. The advantage is you can use them on the same base character.
OH .. one thing. Layers STACK with each other. So if you want to replace a layer you have to delete it first, and then add the "new" layer you want to replace it with.
Sure is a better choice then PY , I choose Bump for now that seems to do the trick, It gives a all new aspect to it all and most probably will also work to integrate it into a Pz2 file adding scales, Vascularity, Scars to loaded textured models in a all easy way, I just can't get over it passed day's for something that was right in front, thank you soo much for your help.
Sure noted the Stacking LOL was so exited and hit the load a few times :)
No need to do a PZ2 file. When you save the material layers to the library it saves it with (I think) an MLC extension (for material layer collection I think). PZ2's were used for old MAT files. No longer necessary.Sure is a better choice then PY , I choose Bump for now that seems to do the trick, It gives a all new aspect to it all and most probably will also work to integrate it into a Pz2 file adding scales, Vascularity, Scars to loaded textured models in a all easy way, I just can't get over it passed day's for something that was right in front, thank you soo much for your help.
Sure noted the Stacking LOL was so exited and hit the load a few times :)
JustBeCause posted at 7:47 PM Tue, 17 October 2023 - #4476427Guess I'm a little the old timer with these Pz2 files LOL ( wants everything in Pz2 ) but sure if the Material file does the whole trick it will save allot of further work and drooping some old habits, actually I'm more into rigging then Materials, but this Vascularity theme just pulled me right in. Veins are a good thing for the Creatures I make so sure worth spending time on it !No need to do a PZ2 file. When you save the material layers to the library it saves it with (I think) an MLC extension (for material layer collection I think). PZ2's were used for old MAT files. No longer necessary.Sure is a better choice then PY , I choose Bump for now that seems to do the trick, It gives a all new aspect to it all and most probably will also work to integrate it into a Pz2 file adding scales, Vascularity, Scars to loaded textured models in a all easy way, I just can't get over it passed day's for something that was right in front, thank you soo much for your help.
Sure noted the Stacking LOL was so exited and hit the load a few times :)
To save material layers:
1) Navigate to or create the material library folder to store your materials
2) Click the + button in the bottom of the library window to create a new material set
3) Set a name for the material layer (Like V4 Vascularity Layer or some such)
4) Click the Material Layers radio button
5) Click the Select Layers button. A dialog opens and lists all the layers in each of the materials you created. You can Select All, Select None, or check only the ones you want to include. Then click OK.
The material layer preset will be saved into the location you choose, using an MLC extension
Had a shot making a Pz2 file for the layer setup Quick converting using the "Netherworks Material Tools" , just as you said the Pz2 file is rather for older setups :) It keeps the information building up the layers even multiple setup for whole body but having the side effect moving the nodes on the poser surface like changing the Bump to Gradient bump and the next mystery, moving nodes that are in Alternate_ Specular - Diffuse to the Bump node. Randomly surprise moving the nodes :)
Might be because the Material Tools automatically are adding the Poser surface lines into the Pz2 script that seem to be the main cause moving nodes around .... Well concentrate now on these Mat files, at least get something nice done for these vascularity. For Firefly will have to check another setup, Layers do not seem to be working In Firefly at all .... Was to be expected.
For the forums users in here now that they know that Partial Shader trees can be built into a material file it will be easy to share the setups as a Material file instead of having them to screenshot the setups and explain how they can be built manually :) , Most of the time these do not fit in the screenshots and you go through a labyrinth of nodes trying to figure them out.
Actually not necessary, It was never the intention to overwrite a existing structure, the Intention was keeping that structure adding a partial setup to it, in our case adding veins to the existing skin. If there is a existent layer in the model you have loaded it is having a purpose, the new one will just be added as additional effect not affecting or overwriting. So why should there now be a script that is doing exactly what had to be prevented ?Just keep in mind that material layers saved in Poser can not replace one that was previously applied. You need a script to work with that as well.
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shvrdavid posted at 11:56 AM Wed, 18 October 2023 - #4476474
Actually not necessary, It was never the intention to overwrite a existing structure, the Intention was keeping that structure adding a partial setup to it, in our case adding veins to the existing skin. If there is a existent layer in the model you have loaded it is having a purpose, the new one will just be added as additional effect not affecting or overwriting. So why should there now be a script that is doing exactly what had to be prevented ?Just keep in mind that material layers saved in Poser can not replace one that was previously applied. You need a script to work with that as well.
To explain what Scott was getting at ...
Let's say you create several different material layers to change the color of the lips. You apply a red lip color layer and the lips turn red. Later you decide you want pink lips.
If you add the pink lips from the library, it will NOT replace the red lips, it will "stack" them, which might not produce the results you like. Instead, select the red lip layer, use the layer controls to delete it, and then apply the pink lip layer.
There is one more thing I need to investigate though, so stay tuned.
OK. Let's take V4 for example. The arm textures cover several different material groups. But just for grins let's say you add the vascularity to just Skin Arm and Skin Forearm.
The problem with deleting is, you have to select one material group at a time and delete the layer you want to remove before you change it to something else. In that case, a script wouldn't exactly be NECESSARY, as you can do it with a bunch of clicks. But a script might make things faster.
Of course, the other alternative to remove all those vascularity layers is to reapply the base material that you started with. That would remove ALL of the layers that have been applied to the character.
Intensity of the veins. I'm thinking either adjust the bump value, or maybe even adjust the texture map(s), maybe mixing with one of the color adjustment nodes. Thing is, you'd want to make sure that black areas remain black (for the masks). Grayer values would raise the veins less, brighter values would increase. However, once you reach pure white I think you'd have to go with adjusting the bump/displacement value.
DeeceyArt posted at 5:43 PM Tue, 17 October 2023 - #4476409
Erm also if I follow your description with the blue chip, the entire body is blue. What am I doing wrong here?Forgive me for not giving screen shots to accompany this, but I currently don't have Poser installed (need a serious break). But since you are using Cycles then I suggest adding a material layer rather than using a script.
Anyway, let's say you're doing the arm.
1) Select the arm material.
2) Add a new material layer.
3) In that new material layer, add a phyisical surface node.
4) Change the Color chip to a blue veiny color.
5) Connect the Vascularity map to the Opacity channel so that the color only appears in the veins.
6) Set the roughness to .5 or higher (you don't want it too shiny). Connect the vascularity map to that input as well.
7) Connect the vascularity map to the bump or displacement and set the value to whatever works well.
I THINK that is all you need to do ... I'm going by memory here.
Anyway, follow that same procedure for the other body parts until you get all the vascularity maps created and looking the way you want.
Then save it to the library. You SHOULD be given the option to save ONLY the material layers to the library, which should then work on any other skin base made for that same character.
NOTE that material layers are SuperFly only. They don't work in FireFly.
I really feel like a complete idiot. From all that you guys listed, the only thing that actually, physically worked and looked good as the first one I copied in a response above.
DeeceyArt posted at 3:46 PM Wed, 18 October 2023 - #4476480
JustBeCause posted at 2:36 PM Wed, 18 October 2023 - #4476477Ohh got that point, i fact this sure would be an issue if that method would be used for a creator that wants to release a package with makeups or special effects using the layers. It is a side effect like also seen on Morphs, there it sure would come in hands having a reset file like Inj and rem . Well I am still looking into the options in the scripts so there sure should be a way to invert the Injection, if you can add then there should also be a way to remove these :)shvrdavid posted at 11:56 AM Wed, 18 October 2023 - #4476474
Actually not necessary, It was never the intention to overwrite a existing structure, the Intention was keeping that structure adding a partial setup to it, in our case adding veins to the existing skin. If there is a existent layer in the model you have loaded it is having a purpose, the new one will just be added as additional effect not affecting or overwriting. So why should there now be a script that is doing exactly what had to be prevented ?Just keep in mind that material layers saved in Poser can not replace one that was previously applied. You need a script to work with that as well.
To explain what Scott was getting at ...
Let's say you create several different material layers to change the color of the lips. You apply a red lip color layer and the lips turn red. Later you decide you want pink lips.
If you add the pink lips from the library, it will NOT replace the red lips, it will "stack" them, which might not produce the results you like. Instead, select the red lip layer, use the layer controls to delete it, and then apply the pink lip layer.
There is one more thing I need to investigate though, so stay tuned.
The mcl file is a good start having a closer look at the script. The layer can be also saved as Mt5 but again the resulting like before it will sure load into the new built layer but mess up the Base Layer like it has been doing before interchanging the nodes to the poser surface, unless you load that MT5 Layer file using the Add to Scene feature then the Base Layer remains stable. Back to the Roots, there must be a line in the txt that can be used to prevent that issue that the Main Layer gets affected. Once this is solved it would be possible making a sort of INJ REM file for partial materials or layers.
@ Rhia474
This is the setup DeeceyArt Explained in a mcl material Poser file you can just add your textures into the layer that has been added. Screenshots are in the Post above that I made with Images of the setup :)
the setup will load into the forearm there selecting the Layer you will find Layer_1 you need to build up the setup into a new layer and not into the base layer
I think I just found the line that is causing the nodes to move in the base layer removing this one in the Poser file script stops causing the issues at least when using the partial materias by loading with the add to scene feature
node NO_NODE
getting closer :)
ok will stop bothering you further with all this tech stuff that is making things confusing and try to figure out a final solution, If there is one !
Quick correction of my last comment. If making a Mt5 file that should work like the MCL file using the Add to Scene feature the line in the txt
shaderTree
{
node "poser" "PoserSurface"
{
name "PoserSurface"
simply needs to be changed to
shaderTree
{
node NO_MAP
{
name "PoserSurface"
this will make sure not to affect the Base Poser Layer and you get the option to load the new layer to any selected bodypart. removing eventual other issues change the first lines
actor $CURRENT
{
material 3_SkinForearm
to
actor $CURRENT
{
material
now this starts to solve allot of issues and the layer can be added to the bodypart of your choice, now a solution to remove the layers. Starting to get good results here :)
DeeceyArt posted at 4:59 PM Wed, 18 October 2023 - #4476483
This is the setup I created for managing the vein intensity. I utilize the HSV node to modulate the intensity of the map. Saturation is set to zero and the Value channel mediates the map intensity. The Invert node connecting the map to the roughness reduces the shininess of the overall texture when rendered. An effect that I noticed after creating the Material Room shaders.Intensity of the veins. I'm thinking either adjust the bump value, or maybe even adjust the texture map(s), maybe mixing with one of the color adjustment nodes. Thing is, you'd want to make sure that black areas remain black (for the masks). Grayer values would raise the veins less, brighter values would increase. However, once you reach pure white I think you'd have to go with adjusting the bump/displacement value.
After fiddling with the settings, this is the image I rendered.
DeeceyArt posted at 5:43 PM Tue, 17 October 2023 - #4476409
Erm also if I follow your description with the blue chip, the entire body is blue. What am I doing wrong here?Forgive me for not giving screen shots to accompany this, but I currently don't have Poser installed (need a serious break). But since you are using Cycles then I suggest adding a material layer rather than using a script.
Anyway, let's say you're doing the arm.
1) Select the arm material.
2) Add a new material layer.
3) In that new material layer, add a phyisical surface node.
4) Change the Color chip to a blue veiny color.
5) Connect the Vascularity map to the Opacity channel so that the color only appears in the veins.
6) Set the roughness to .5 or higher (you don't want it too shiny). Connect the vascularity map to that input as well.
7) Connect the vascularity map to the bump or displacement and set the value to whatever works well.
I THINK that is all you need to do ... I'm going by memory here.
Anyway, follow that same procedure for the other body parts until you get all the vascularity maps created and looking the way you want.
Then save it to the library. You SHOULD be given the option to save ONLY the material layers to the library, which should then work on any other skin base made for that same character.
NOTE that material layers are SuperFly only. They don't work in FireFly.
I really feel like a complete idiot. From all that you guys listed, the only thing that actually, physically worked and looked good as the first one I copied in a response above
@ Rhia: if you encounter the blue body effect, you need to enter the Material Room and click on each body zone. That refreshes the textures and they will displace correctly. I also experienced that anomaly.
From time to time, especially with old scene, I've even seen my character completely disappear 
, a jump back and forth in the Mat room corrected this as well
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yes this looks very promisingDeeceyArt posted at 4:59 PM Wed, 18 October 2023 - #4476483
This is the setup I created for managing the vein intensity. I utilize the HSV node to modulate the intensity of the map. Saturation is set to zero and the Value channel mediates the map intensity. The Invert node connecting the map to the roughness reduces the shininess of the overall texture when rendered. An effect that I noticed after creating the Material Room shaders.Intensity of the veins. I'm thinking either adjust the bump value, or maybe even adjust the texture map(s), maybe mixing with one of the color adjustment nodes. Thing is, you'd want to make sure that black areas remain black (for the masks). Grayer values would raise the veins less, brighter values would increase. However, once you reach pure white I think you'd have to go with adjusting the bump/displacement value.
After fiddling with the settings, this is the image I rendered.
Ok found a way adding Vascularity with a pz2 or a Mc6 file in new layers to the dolls, this system has to be applied before using your dolls textures and will stay on them even if you decide loading an other texture the Vascularity Layer will remain stable. I will now try building the 3 styles for V4 and if you have the original Vascularity for V4 M4 it will be ready to go using it in P13 with a Pz2 Injection :) So hope I get these 3 styles right now.
This is a Prototype to add Vascularity to V4 the Pz2 file will have to be applied first, before you load your skin setup. Once loaded all the Vascularity layers will remain, even if you load another skin texture to the V4 changing the previous one you have loaded. there are 3 Layer settings based on the settings proposed in here so thanks to DeeceyArt it was possible figuring out this type of setup as for the tip for the layers, Material settings are based on the Mat setups of DeeceyArt, hborre and me
Removing the Vascularity layer, well this is not possible atm. if you want to load another Vascularity Layer then you have to reload V4. The Pz2 will automatically remove all skins of the loaded figure, it will be all white until you load your Pz2 texture setup for the doll skin style! As I mainly bothered figuring out how to gell the Vascularity onto the doll I did not take the time to finetune the nodes for strength or for coloring this is up to you changing these in the material regions selecting the Individual Vascularity layers .
In order to work correctly you must be in Possession of the original Old Vascularity pack but as far I have seen most of you got it as you are using the Texture maps, that are Needed and not included.
so again .... First you load the Vascularity prototype to your Loaded V4 and then you can use your V4 Pz2 skin setups on her rendering in Superfly will make the veins visible.
there is also the basic Old Mat Remove Glow Pz2 in the folder that can be used to remove the oily effect when rendering in superfly. just a basic little helper to be able using your older V4 skins in a fast way without having to rearange every material manually "Not Perfect But Does The Trick".
you can remove the Layers manually, but for the setup created on all materials of V4 sure the faster way to reload a new V4. The Layer Pz2 file is set to remove all other textures making a clean blank V4 to start up with. If you load it two times on the same model , well you will get a duplicate layer making a stronger effect on the Vascularity :) or mess it up ... trying to load two different ones might even bring out some surprising results ; did not try it my self .....
Now that it got figured out how to make such setups in a Pz2 that loads full fix layers setups for Vascularity or other complex setups without a python, it might be worth making a final set, for me not today, but may be another day, it is allot of work making good Maps. It was really interesting figuring out the "impossible" I love challenges and thanking the few who were helping out figuring it out even if not aware of it :) If you read it all carefully you might now also know how such a file is done, that sure could be a timesaver for many other things. Even if the Interest seem to be rather small, "Oh well it still was worth the time spent".This is a Prototype to add Vascularity to V4 the Pz2 file will have to be applied first, before you load your skin setup. Once loaded all the Vascularity layers will remain, even if you load another skin texture to the V4 changing the previous one you have loaded. there are 3 Layer settings based on the settings proposed in here so thanks to DeeceyArt it was possible figuring out this type of setup as for the tip for the layers, Material settings are based on the Mat setups of DeeceyArt, hborre and me
Removing the Vascularity layer, well this is not possible atm. if you want to load another Vascularity Layer then you have to reload V4. The Pz2 will automatically remove all skins of the loaded figure, it will be all white until you load your Pz2 texture setup for the doll skin style! As I mainly bothered figuring out how to gell the Vascularity onto the doll I did not take the time to finetune the nodes for strength or for coloring this is up to you changing these in the material regions selecting the Individual Vascularity layers .
In order to work correctly you must be in Possession of the original Old Vascularity pack but as far I have seen most of you got it as you are using the Texture maps, that are Needed and not included.
so again .... First you load the Vascularity prototype to your Loaded V4 and then you can use your V4 Pz2 skin setups on her rendering in Superfly will make the veins visible.
there is also the basic Old Mat Remove Glow Pz2 in the folder that can be used to remove the oily effect when rendering in superfly. just a basic little helper to be able using your older V4 skins in a fast way without having to rearange every material manually "Not Perfect But Does The Trick".
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Made material settings for the veins this way it is possible to share a full Vascularity setup for P13 " Ok the Basics " I did not use Substance painter or Blender to paint in 3D, Old fashion way in PS , was a little faster :) I made 12 setups or the 3 presented versions all with different strength and textures. To get good results you have to change the vein color to fit the skin shade you loaded on the V4 Doll " Just play a little around with the given Layers " . The Package contains the Texture maps so no need of the original Vascularity textures in order to work, this will also give the opportunity to use for those who do not have it . Might be something useful or just a Dust Catcher who knows. It is just a starter, so some of you might get to figure out a better way, or find time to share some Material maps made for the veins, expanding this feature a little . "Creativity has no limits"
Guess I am done with it for good with veins .... Hope that the op will find some good use with this setup .... and others to.
This Place seems to be so lonely " Ghost Town "
I wouldn't be so quick to abandon this thread yet. I tried your PZ2 and have come across some problems with it's implementation. With the 2nd layer vascular map loaded on the figure, you cannot apply a Mat Collection without losing the vascular map. It remains if you apply the skin textures from a MATPose, so this implies that you cannot load textures using both MC6 and PZ2. Also, the glossy skin remains a problem when loading the no-glow MATPose and it still attaches the Bump Node to the Gradient_Bump. The glossy skin is not influenced by the base layer, it needs to be controlled by the second layer. If you examine my Material Room screencap, I included an Invert Node to control the roughness and an HSV node to control the veinous intensity. With the HSV node in place, there is no need to offer several maps of different intensities.
It actually gave me better comprehension when working with the second layer in general. In setting up a one-second layer master vascular collection or any type of recoloring like lips, eyes, nails, etc., you can use them across different skin textures and characters. It is very convenient if you want to save disk space.
Jup not perfect jet, to add a skin after the veins it requires to use a Mat-Pose , I actually did not even think of using a Material as the older V4 setups are in most cases Mat Pose it is rather new that this has changed, guess it is because all the older Py that were generating these Mat Poses are not working any longer in Poser 13 and there are no alternatives creating these any longer, like many other things that were in need of these Little py helpers.
Your Animation control panel looks very interesting Woow ! I never used animation features on the materials, a entirely new learning curve for sure :) If it works like you say that for sure a breakthrough of no use for all these alternative mat Poses. Except of coloring but strength would sure already be a great option. Now got to look into these Animation options ant figure out how that works ......
just guessing .... can this mat animation also be saved into the mat file ?! this would change the whole aspect and be generated as Mat-Pose with interactive materials :)
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Nevermind, just figured it out ! need to activate the little key next to the material setting to activate animations, the individual dials will show up in the main body of the loaded figure. Boa can even change colors with these dials! In theory it should be possible making a Mat-Pose with integrated dials changing the Vein colors like White to , Green, Blue, red ect. some dials changing the glow oily effects on older skins.
I tested to create a master dial turning the actual brown red color of the veins slowly from 0-1.0 to white and it works creating a morph injection for this would be the easy part. such a feature could be used globally for finetuning of materials in a loaded model Like Puppetmaster for Materials.
Basically have to check if there is the need in the script to activate the Animations or if it is possible like a custom morph creating these through a custom master dial. Like the one I just created that is changing the Vein coloring. getting to load the new crated dial into the Pz2 vascularity is sure a Brain Challenge, would sure be a great brake through for Poser Pose Injections :)) Not morphs but global material manipulation right on the main body of the loaded figure.
So this is what the "Interactive Master Mat morph dial" does the way I have set it up on the veins. Incredible how many possibilities just got open up with this feature!!!!
Time to get the Binary Morph app out of the drawer, has bee a while since last used :) or the old Poser Tools, see what will be the best solution creating such Pose Inj files. Wardrobe Wizard will probably also come in handy for this purpose at least for merging these morphs to a custom version .....
I think you are only confusing yourself by trying to shoehorn current library file formats and standards into poses created with legacy content creation utilities.
First of all, material files are NOT "MAT Poses." They are library-specific files that store material setting information.
The other part of your problem is that you are using OLDER TOOLS to create binary morphs and injection/remove files. Bear in mind that some of these tools were created years ago, and as good as they were back then (and yes, I am indeed a Dimension 3D fan), they are not aware of newer file formats and parameters. In the case of Dimension 3D tools, I'm certain that they do a syntax check before saving the files, which explains why some settings are changed during saving.
In addition, the Pose category has become a catch all for all sorts of different files, and it's gotten so unruly to keep track of what is what. There are character poses (which the library category was originally created for). Then you have morph injection and remove poses. And then there are material poses. Looking at my V4 runtime, the Pose category goes on forever, and because of the naming it's like hunting for needles in a haystack to figure out which type of pose it is.
Old habits die hard. I know. But you might be making things more difficult for yourself, and for users, by trying to do things "the old way."
DeeceyArt posted at 10:24 AM Sat, 21 October 2023 - #4476585
this is good to know :) well I like the Pz2 files as allot can be done manually in these that affect the behavior. It sure can be a big mess but since it does not matter where you save your files , actually you can save all the Pz Mt Cr files into the Character root of poser , by changing the path in a mat file or geometry just remove the path leaving the file name all can be dropped into the same folder, ok with Geometry and Textures not the best Idea in case of shared packs. but for the package it self best thing is to drop it into one cathegory folder . For instance you get a outfit with mat Packages just place the mat morph packs into the same path where the outfit is . Poser will load them and you got it all together at one place not having a big mess or hundred of runtimes :) not having to find the textures for the outfit in Materials or Poser all at one Place . Drag and drop stuff you want to load into the window also is a time saver no matter from what runtime it is . so for instance you have the Fortune teller outfit with all released texture and morph packages just build up a folder structure with all the files in one place and drop it into your Character Path , there you are got it all together when opening it up in the poser library ready to load :)Poser 13 has a FIle > Export > Morph injection command.
No more worries to find a texture pack for the outfit made by another creator as there all in the same folder structure with the outfit.
I have one runtime 6TB with over 10'000'000 files and believe me I find my way through this way, no more duplicates all sorted out like a Library.
Making a duplicate or tripple or even grater folder structure in the poser runtime just because the extensions are different does not make sense if you can load any file extension in the Character Library, even see the Thumbnails if it is a Pz Mt PP extension, got a outfit with Props well got em all with the outfit at the same place. Saving files is a different thing in Poser but after saving just move these to the appropriate place so you are sure to find em again.
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The above is presuming that your vascularity map is black and white, with black being no bump/displacement, and white or near white being areas that are raised.