I saw this posted and just wanted to set the record straight...this is from the other forum under http://www.poserforum.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001497.html Grey: "Renderosity. Everyone there is well paid to do their jobs. Everyone here are volunteers. and that's all I have to say about them. Since we are all voluntters, and we love the software so much, we're not going anywyere." Now please understand, I felt that it was necessary to explain the way that I run this forum behind the scenes. I don't wish anyone to think I have something to hide and that we all get paid big bucks to Admin the forum... The truth is, none of the Admins (including myself) has earned a dime from this forum!! However. However, it is my hope to one day be able to pay the Admins for their work here and this is why... I spend on an adverage of 12-18 hours a day working on this forum. Making sure that people's e-mail is answered, questions on the forum, the forum running smoothly, talking with potential advertisers... blah blah blah The other Admins work about 4-8 hours a day on the forum doing their posts, answering questions I have no clue about, making product to share..etc etc... They make my job running this place easier and I feel they are worth getting paid for their hard work and efforts. It is my desire to eventually pay them $400 a month. Not much, but it will be something for listening to me ask things like: "So and so wants to know how to do this, Um..." Things like that. ---continued---

The truth of the matter is this... I don't ask people to work for free when they work with me. Expecially if the thing that we run makes money and they have to put up with me :o) With that said, also let me share with you all of the Admins here, including myself, haven't made one cent since we have taken over this forum. Infact, currently, we haven't made anything yet, not even enough to pay for the bandwidth that we use. And with the advent of MetaCreations new announcement, we most likely wont be. In fact, the last week I have been racking my brain to think of ways to at least be able to afford the cost of the server which ew are to move to soon. Will we close? No, it is not our intention to and fortunately thanks to a few companies (such as EdgeNet and Sheer Genius) they have been letting us slide on some of our operational costs to help keep this place here for all of you. Bottom line: No we are not doing this for the money, we are doing it because we enjoy doing it. Yes, it is my hope to pay the Admins once we start making money. It is the least that I can do for them in helping me run this large forum! Just felt you should know the whole truth... Jack

I'll probly get flamed to hell won't hold it for saying this, but... This is the reason I use this forum. The "other" place I feel like I'm swimming with sharks. They're so busy stabbing each other (and any everybody else)in the backs they don't have time to do any modeling. My $.02 Nerd

And we appreciate that you're sharing your talent with us Nerd. I know I do! If you looked on my hardrive, you'd see the Nerdstuff folder!

And why does anyone think there is anything wrong with wanting to make money? Wanting to be paid fairly and make a fair profit from what you do does not make you evil. Jack, you and your staff have been upfront, fair and professional in all of your dealings with the members here on this forum. I appreciate that and I'm sure the others do as well.

I have been downloading stuff from this site for over a year now, and I only started reading the forums at the time of the great divide. My mistake, I am sure I missed out on lots of information that could have helped me out at the time as I tried to come to grips with Poser. Anyway, I can only speak from my experiences with the current administration, and I am very impressed with the professionalism displayed by Jack and his staff. A warm thank you to you all.

I just want to say that I agree with everyone else here so far. What I've seen of you guys so far is nothing else than perfect! You've never lied or acted dishonestly (as far as I know) toward us. I really admire you and the admins for all the effort they put to this place, and I believe that you have proved over and over again that this is a much more creative and familiar place than PFO. At least this is how I feel..... here I can say what I feel, and show renders without being "afraid" of being backstabbed. I love you guys for what you are doing for me and all the other members!! And if you can earn something when doing it: Good for you!! Happy holidays!!

Perhaps some of those on the other forum don't get paid because.....well you get what you're worth........I wouldn't mind a bit if you guys DID get paid......I don't believe for a minute the other forum is doing this out of the goodness of their hearts; if they were they wouldn't be jealous of this forum...... Krel

Jack, I'm a member here in this forum since over a year now and this is the best place to share my Stuff, get help with problems and help others with their problems. Since the the last months it grows up and get better and better. That was your work (and your Admins too). I wish you all the best to get paid for your great work you have done here. I don't have a Problem with it because every hard work must be paid. I hope you will earn a lot of money and keep this Forum running. I don't have much money (I have to keep my Family running ) so I can't buy me all the stuff from Zygote and other Poser Producer. So here is the best pleace to get lots of usefull things I need for my projects. With your hard work it will be that pleace in the future too. Allerleirauh: Jack doesn't start the "war". He only defend this forum and himself. Its the "others" task to end this war. And we have to know what is going on so we can help him. (my opinion) I wish you all the best, Jack. Merry Christmas and a Happy new year to you (and all the Admins and Members of this great pleace). Chris PS: Please excuse my poor english. This is the longest letter I've wrote in your lenguage. Hope you understand what I mean

I just wanted to confirm what Jack has said. The intention all along has been to be able to make money doing things that we enjoy and this forum is one of them. Indeed, there has not been any money made from this venture.. (yet)... to the point where in order to take care of my finances, I had to start doing 10-12 hours a day and withdraw from DSI (I was working on the interactive section which will hopefully one day be a reality) There was no help for it.. Got bills to pay. Most of my spare time from now on will have to be on my own projects. In it for the money? Yes, I would suppose most of Renderositys staff would Love to make money, but truthfully if the administrators Never get paid, will any of them leave? I doubt it. Why? Because it is the love of what we do that holds us here both administrators and members.

My opinion? If it weren't for the fact I was already up to my butt in projects on the web I'd give time to Jack and if there were ever an offer of pay I'd kick him right in the shins. I get paid for producing web pages and maintianing e-commerce sites. I do technical support for my company's network... this would be a lobour of, well if not love, then strong like. Advertisments are expected... bandwidth from a site like this must cost a bit more than couch-cusion money. And the time spent on it shows! I have put together ASP and heavy sites that are well behind in size of this place - I do NOT envy Jack, Legume, 3DSPrite, etc, etc... Who gives a rat's ass what other people say? If I did I'd still be in the Marines and not living the life I am now. People told me somthing couldn't be done, so I did it. People are bad mouthing Jack and company because Jack and the crew are NOT playing their games and they feel slighted - "Either be petty like us or we will get MOR petty!"

Hey ! To All of You. I don't care if Jack and his team made $1,000 an hour (not that they do not deserve it). I know it takes a lot of personal involvement to keep any activity going. I spend over 20 hours a week on top of my work 40 volunteering service to my community. You do things for the love of it. It shows that Jack and the Team loves what they are doing and I am sorry the jealousy of the world cannot accept it. JACK!!! F#*&'EM!!!

I would hope that Jack and the staff do eventually make money from administering this site. There is an enormous amount of effort expended and it should be rewarded. I am sorry there is a divide between the two sites-regardless what has been said, there is a different approach to each and room for both. I also credit Willow and Grey for starting the original PFO, but that is no reason to feel that they should be the only ones involved in 3D sites. However, I refuse to play the 'game', so I no longer will post to the other site until I see a change in attitude. Diane B

Picnic sez: I also credit Willow and Grey for starting the original PFO, but that is no reason to feel that they should be the only ones involved in 3D sites. The problem with those two is that they think they ARE the poser community. Everytime someone didn't agree with their vision, they exiled or censured them. They've been working overtime to divide and destroy the community so that they can make the absurd claim that they created and control it. I'm sick of the offhand tributes to Willow and Grey as the patron saints of the Poser community. It's just as likely that someone else (like Bob Covington) could have been the rallying force in creating a place for the users to unite. Just an accident of fate that those two held the reins for as long as they have.

Well, not coming to the PFO until late last Spring, I don't know all the history and I also don't know all the behind the scenes things that happened, altho' I was able to draw a lot of inferences from things that happened-staff that disappeared, etc. I honestly don't know who Bob Covington is and suspect that a lot of other people don't know what's transpired. I also don't want to know much more than I know--recent events have been sufficient for me to decide where I'm more comfortable. Maybe it was just an accident of fate as to how PFO got started, but nonetheless, they seemed to be the ones who DID start it. I thought I was just giving due credit-I certainly don't consider them the saints of the Poser community-LOL. What I WOULD like to see is the whole thing go away. There seems to be a lot of animosity that many of us don't understand-that 'behind the scenes' thing again. I prefer the way Jack seems to be handling it 99% of the time-no references to any comments, etc. This site can stand on its own. Diane B

I don't know the history behind the comments here, but I do have an observation. People will flock to the best product or service. It doesn't matter if you decide to do something someone else is already doing, because if you do it better than the competition then people with follow. I've been to the other place and I've chosen to be here. The highest complement is the traffic, features and service that members get at Renderosity. And if there is some mud slinging going on then I would suspect this team is probably doing something well. Competition is good for customers, and can be a wake up call for some of the competitors. Keep up the good work Jack & crew! - many complements.

I've been here since February or March, somewhere around there, and I've watched all the goings on. I've kept my eye on both sites, and my mouth shut on the politics and behind the scenes stuff. I've stayed out of the "Us v. Them" business as much as I possibly could, and here is my bottom line regarding the two sites. If both sites were to suddenly start charging for membership, where would I be? I would be here. This is where I would put MY money, if it came down to it. Now, realize, please, that this doesn't mean I'm trashing the other site or anyone associated with it. Far from it. I'm merely saying that I would consider Renderosity to be a better investment for ME, nothing more. Why? you may ask. Well, ok, I'll tell you why. The other site is nice and all, and the people there have never treated me with anything but respect and civility, but there are things in my life that affect what I pass off as art and which would not meet with approval there. Here I am free to post those pieces I put together that have meaning for me and I can be confident that the majority of comments I would receive on those pieces would deal with the technical aspects of the work...how to improve the lighting, the posing, the backgrounds, etc, etc, rather than on the subject matter or content or my personal beliefs or life situation. I am not advocating that this become a pay site, I'm just saying that if BOTH were to do so, I would have to choose this place as my home. Nothing more,nothing less. Kate (still peeling the onion that is my soul)

(hands kate a sharp knife... and a tissue) I know what you mean. You may not believe this, but I was tempted to post over there and tell the person who made the remark to apply his lips to my ass. He had no reason or justification for saying that. It may be hard to believe... but I was actually tempted to be less than civil! ME! Of all people..... hehehehehehe...

I started using the PFO back in, don't tell my ma, but mid november(She bought P3 for me at a computer show we went to and had me install it, just to make sure it worked, then I was to uninstall it and wait for Christmas. (I didn't) but I was using the PFO back when they were still on IguanaSoft and was overjoyed at the improvements that were made. I have been an active user ever since January and only until about October, I kinda let it lapse. I got a job and didn't have much time to surf. When I was let go I went back to my good old PFO to find it changed. And for the better. Then on the Tech forum Grey said the site moved and I found most of the Funstuff posts saying "Edgenet Sucks" and when I posted a question about it on the Tech Forum it was deleted. So ever since then Grey and Willow have left a bad taste in my mouth about them. I went to the other forum and found that seemed alot colder. Even when Radart posted his "End of Radart" pic they didn't even flinch. Heck they had a bunch of Metachanges posts on thier forum and when a few people commented that "You guys should get back together and end this silly war" they snapped back with "This is not the time to bring up Jack's site." I only go thier just to get the other freebies and get a little more info about this whole thing with Meta. Especially since Steve Cooper and Chad Smith of Zygote have been in contact with Grey, but it seems like they would rather forget Renderosity even exists. I think it is better now that they are gone. It's alot more fun here. 'specially since my ol'buddy Legume is a Moderator now. I really like you guy and gals. I hope it stays as close. Good work Jack. Hope your Christmas is a good one, and Y2K brings you more money! Y'know, I like the fact that this place is free, but I would gladly buy any products you guys come out with. Just to keep you going. Keep up the good work and have a merry poser christmas! Nick Noel

If y'all want to "contribute" to the financial well being of Renderosity, Click that annoying little add at the top of the screen once in a while. If Jack's affiliate program works any thing like the one I use, he gets a few cents when ever sombody clicks on it. If every body here just visited the sponsors Jack would be a happy man. Click. Click. Click... C'mon every body together now! Click. Click. Click...

Jack, I was here before the split. And even after, this is the forum I chose to frequent. For myself I would just like to say; You do not have to defend yourself or your actions from the allegations made by anyone from the other forum. I do not know how many others here feel as I do, and would not presume to speak for them, but if you and your team make a few bucks from this site...MORE POWER TO YOU! The team here has provided space, inspiration, assistance, and goodies for all to share, there is nothing wrong with making money from an endeavor such as this. You guys have treated us fairly and bent over backwards to make this a forum that we all can enjoy despite/because of our differing opinions and viewpoints. In closing I would just like to say that although I am not a part of the other forum, I would like to apologize for the fact that they cannot or will not conduct themselves with the maturity or reason of rational adults.

Thanks, everyone, for your kind words. If I could sum up Renderosity's philosophy in one sentence, I reckon it would be "We're not here for US...we're here for YOU. There are some folks on BOTH sides who make this effort a royal pain in the ass, but we're not going to let them stop us from continuing to bring you the best damn graphics website we can. Y'all RULE. Thanks.

I have been involved in this website for about a year,mostly as a lurker. I don't really do web graphics, mostly I use poser as a modeling tool for my sculpture. However, I find this site very useful for what I do. Everybody seems to be helpfull in any Questions I might ask. AS a lurker I've watched the change happen without much comment, I do feel that you and your team are going about it right, you all don't try to control or snub others art, no matter how far off the track it is, like my own. As far as money goes, as a artist tring to make a living off my art, all I can say is if any one can make any money from their own creations more power to them. Isn't that what this country is all about? Thanks to all of you for what you are doing. asmith

It's funny how stuff works. I was just getting on a roll, posting pictures and models, then bang... the split. Then bang... a job that takes up 95% of my life. I was just getting to feel like I was a part of a community of artists, in spite of the bs politics. Now, I mostly feel like a lurker, because I don't have the time to contribute. But I come here every day, even if I hardly post. For me, this IS the Poser site on the Web and the graphics site I frequent most. I'd subscribe if it came to that. You guys are doing a great job, you update content, add features and keep us in front of stuff. There's respect here, for the people who visit and for the artists who contribute. That's just not true in a lot of other places. And nerd... I'm clicking, I'm clicking... Thanks, Jack and to all the Admins, for what it's worth. --ratta

Hi Family, Y'no? in another thread we were talking about how full our hard drives have become. I've had to purchase new ones to accomidate all the textures,Poses,Charecters, models,and tutorials,I've accumulated. I woud say about 80% of all that stuff I got from THIS SITE. Y'no how much I paid for it? NOT ONE RED CENT I say that to say this: "Jack, You Dont Owe Me An Explanation"! ( although I understand your need to defend yourself) It really never crossed my mind if You made money or not. This site Is a gold mine of recorces and other goodies, not to mention the friends I've made. You and Your staff provide an excellant environment that is Renderosity. For us all,Artists and lurkers alike,And all for free. There are some VERY talented individuals here. I may not be a great Graphic/3D artist(Yet) but I'm a better one than I was largely due to this site. And for that I am Gratefull. * sniffle* Hawkfyr

Yeah. What they all said. Me too. The weather turned way cold, and I had to move to a warmer climate, being a summer faerie and all. Thorne =};-}> (P.S. for those who follow such things, Happy Solstice!)

If clicking the banners covers costs and nets Jack a dime or two I'm going to wear my mouse out. It isn't costing us anything to come here. Despite dire warnings, our e-mail addresses have not been sold. (If they have, they've been sold to the laziest advertisers I've ever run across.) Even the most prolific uploaders have gotten more out of Renderosity than they've put in. Jack & co. are the ones who have paid, with time and dinero. Compensation is more than fair, so long as it is ethical. (Again, they've had lots of chances to make money off of us in less than nice ways.) Not many people here should complain if they make money fair and square. Nice guys shouldn't finish last.

Grey and Willow have proven themselves to be petty, paranoid, incompetent egotists. They're 40 watt talents trying to run a 100 watt site. Visiting their PFO is like a "Cold War" trip behind the Iron Curtain, and I'm done with their gang of forum-toadies, and their childish attacks on their peers. This is a free forum and a breath of fresh air. You guys deserve to be paid big bucks for keeping it that way.

I feel there is nothing wrong for being compensated for good work. If this site makes you and your admin an income I feel that you have earnt it. My thanks for what you are doing, all the more so if it is currently a labour of love. Regards PhilC

This site is more useful than a subscription to technical support, more useful than 20 Zygote Cd's, more useful than posting pics to your own websight and is the best thing since sliced bread. Like some others, I have no idea what caused a split or what kind of silliness has gone on after it took place, but I do know this...the other sight just plain 'ole doesn't appeal to me, and the folks here have been so friendly and warm that it feels like family. Personally, I feel GUILTY for not sending someone here money. I would be the first in line to pay a subscription fee, provided it was not too high! (I'm extremely poor) At the very least, with Jack here in Detroit, maybe I can buy him a beer sometime? (Or similar/comparable form of liquid nourishment as applicable to taste of recipient.) -Darth_Logice

Just to let you all know, I appreciate the show of support you all have shown, allot of this would not have been possible if not for the likes of you all. You provide the driving force that has turned this forum into a first rate Graphics Forum, and your ideas help us to push the limits and breech areas unrealized. So you all deserve most of the credit. Please, let me add, if you do wish to show your support by clicking on banners, which you do not have to do. I appreciate it and it does help, but please don't go out of your way if your time is short. Please click the BURSTNET banners, these are the often times the annoying ones that pop up Like the dreaded "Smack the Monkey" (not to be confused by the image created by Legume LOL ). The MetaCreations banner only generates income from sales of their products (do they have any left??hehehe). BBAY has been sending some of the money generated off of the products you purchase on his site to this one (THANKS BILL!!). DigitalWoman's Banner is a personal favor to a dear and good friend and has helped with some of our other needs for it!! We are working on getting some other banners soon, to help you track down more free meshes, textures and graphic needs in the weeks to come. Again, thank you all for your support here. This work would not be worth it to me, if we didn't have some great and talented people such as yourselves!! Thank you!! Jack Ex-Scrooge

I guess you didn't read so well why I posted this Smitty, oh by the way, just so that you know, I know who you really are since I have your IP. For the sake of not embarrassing you or making your forum look worse, I will keep it to myself but must you really come here to stir up trouble? Jack

Very Transparent Smitty, and quite tasteless. I give it a zero. -Darth_Logice

Despite what you think or how much you preach, people are entittled to their opinions here, perhaps trying it you wouldn't have half the problems you seem to have. Just a thought. Jack

Is there a post missing that these reference? I'm guessing someone deleted something and now I don't have a clue (well, maybe I do (S) Diane B

"Smitty" called Jack a liar and petty or something like that, oh, i know, it was "succombing to politics" and did this all trying to sound like a casual observer, but it was soooo obvious what "Smitty" was all about -Darth_Logice

Jack... told you were were like family. We're just as disfunctional, cost you money, give you grey hairs AND that nice warm feeling! Kinda like the one you get on Saturday mornings when you can't remember Friday night... As far as the other site: What they think means diddley witha good heap of squat. I checked their "Community" because their opening page suggests you got their first. I wouldn't send people I HATE there, much less people i want to give a good impression to. We may bash them, but we also give equal kicks to each other. They censor and start little subversive campaigns for no reason other than ego... And I have grown to HATE UBB! (Note these are MY opinions and anyone who doesn't like them can e-mail me.)

Soooo..... how's the weather?? Going to be a fine day... yep a fine day indeed... Jack

Oooh, a dysfunctional family. Makes me feel right at home! The weather's beautiful, Jack. Warm and sunny. It is going to be a fine day! Diane

Chilly and sunny here--FINE day, but I'm waiting for the solstice moon tonight, myself. BTW, are we seeing a multiple personality situation here LOLOL?!?!? (I really SHOULD have better things to do than read this darn forum, but I've relaxed all discipline for the rest of the week and am not doing anything productive S) Diane B

And I know that that cheek is getting a major workout from that tongue massaging it LOL. Diane B

I live in a burb of BUFFALO Jack! You should know better than to ask me how the damn weather is! It STINKS! If it's sunny, that means the wind is kicking up and the moist air off the lake makes everything feel like it's about to sprout fungus. If it's cloudy, then it's either gonna rain (which at this time of year turns to mud the second it hits the ground), or snow (which at this time of year turns to mud the seond it hits the ground). And once it gets REALLY cold we get buried up to our butts in snow! And that is NOT a figure of speech. The state is using us as a test bed for a new system of passes to allow certian people to travel during snow storms! ...ask ME how the weather is... sheesh!

::chuckles:: Sorry Paul.... Jack

Mild and sunny in the South! (teeheeheeheehee!!!) ;-P

Warm and windless in the San Fran Bay area...hard to feel Christmassy when I'm still running the BBQ here grin Kate

:Weather Report for Baltimore/Washington DC. area: Tonights forcast.... DARK! continued dark throughout the evening followed by Widely scattered light nearing Dawn. Hawkfyr

Hell Kate, you live out there neer my sister in law! And we BBQ here in Febuary when there's three feet of snow. I'm not sure if my wife does it because it tastes even better in the depths of winter or it's just to piss off the neighbors...

It's in the 60's right now over here and may be in the 70's for X-Mas. We haven't had rain in over 3 months. Snow -- heard the word. What does it mean?

Well, golly gee, Iky - if y'all ever get out here to visit the sister-in-law, lemme know and we'll have coffee or lunch or something, maybe. Kate

Hey, let me know if you do. I'm in the bay area, too! Diane

VISIT? Hell Kate, I just bought her a new Mac G4. If she wants company she can come out here.... But if I ever do come back out, I have freinds that live on the other side of the bay. I would make a point of getting together with you and Diane for coffee. I have to deal with sales people wanting some favor for their customers or getting their personal website updated for free... it'd be nice to get together with people who actually caught the clue ball when it was hit to them.