Entropic: I posted this in a new thread because it would have been buried if I put it in yours. I didn't think that would give the other side an even shake. I normally don't argue but this excuse-making is getting ridiculous. Blaming the users for bugs? You counted all the bug reports and credit 85% of them to be the fault of the user? I think you may have been focusing on the complaints about renders, and not the overall program. I'm no Poser expert, but I am quite experienced with hardware and software and I know a faulty program when I see it and this is it. For over a year now, we (yes, me too) were shouting, "Give them time, don't rush them! We don't want another P4 fiasco." And they promised us they were taking their good ol' time making it right. So now it's out with more bugs than the back alley of a New York City greasy spoon, and it's the user's fault?! BS, period. I've even read in earlier threads that we should expect bugs in software this new and this complex. More BS. (See the paragraph above where it mentions "taking the time to make it right.") And it's not new, either; it's Poser 4 with a slightly reworked interface and some new features added on. Some of the P4 bugs are still there fer cryin' out loud. And the complexity excuse? So there's no other software that's complex? I've never had Max 4 lock up on me, not once. Neither Carrara 1.1 or Photoshop 7. Corel Draw 10 either. Bryce 4, Vue 4, oops... Vue 4 did lock on me 'til I figured out to disable open gl. I didn't come in here the day I got P5 to bash CL. I was very patient and honestly looked for answers to these problems. I'm still looking and testing...something that should have been done already. Now I kind of resent being blamed for sloppy programming and slip-shod testing. Yesterday I was going to start a thread titled, "Who Beta'd this thing? Moe, Larry, & Curly?" But I didn't. I thought better of it. And now the users are being blamed for the bugs. It's amazing! I think most of us have the same desire: to see Poser become the best it can be. But in order to do that, we have to be honest. Making excuses and blaming users isn't going to help at all.

Like I mentioned in an earlier thread, I will follow the "don't buy it first" policy for new software.

We'll see how things progress.

There is alot of user error, but that's to be expected.

I just wish those who are having difficulties would not label their thread as a "bug" before investigating fully.

The only bug in mine so far is me! lol I know from personal experience that a lot of times when I beta tested, and pointed out something was wrong, I soon found out it was something I did, and wasn't a bug at all. So I will say there are probably bugs, and I think it is to be expected, but so far I haven't come across one in P5 yet :)

I'm sorry, but as a programmer and network guy, I'm getting tried of hearing "BUG" on a new program like P5 or "OE" error. People if you beta tested for 10 year, the program will still have problems. Lets look that this, everyone's computer installed is difference then another system. (Hardware, software installed, patches and setting). Now you put in a complex program like Poser 5, Max 5 and etc. You are going to have some problems like system crashing and/or lockups and/or other things. But its not the programmers or Beta testers fault, because they did not have your system to test on and it not the user fault. Its just problems we need to work thru. Let work thru the problems together not at each other. Blaming anyone does not help.

Yadda yadda. Around here, the fun never ends.

Still, Jackson makes a valid point. Max 4, Photoshop 7 & Bryce 5 don't like up the way every verison of Poser I've ever touched has. I plunkered down my dough the other night and am now starting to wish I had waited a bit. I'm sure the wow factor will keep me happy a while, but then if the same ole crap errors and bugs from p4 persist, I'm going to be a little miffed with CL.

I agree that the 85% figure is a nonsense, a lot of people have been reporting geniune bugs. However, most of these have, fortunately, not been show stoppers, although there seem to be a few people who are still struggling the get the app running in the first place. A lot of bugs that have been reported should definitely have been picked out during the beta testing phase. But I don't think beta testers can be blamed themselves for this. My impression was that the beta testing phase was too short and limited to really achieve its aims. Bill

thebert is absolutely correct! Chaos theory (a validated mathematical and physical theory based upon real world observations) and its kin, non-linear dynamics, predict that complex systems with complex interactions behave indeterminately. No software company, not even Microsoft with its thousands of developers and testers, can avoid having software problems because everybody has a different system: different hardware in different configurations, different software, different drivers, different data, different everything. And all of their distinct components interact differently. One might try to bring up the digital nature of computers. This won't help. Chaos theory was STARTED due to these types of observations on computers and calculators first. And because of this, no software (or hardware) company can predict problems with certainty. They'd have to test on every possible configuration, which is impossible. Good companies test alot and catch as many as plausible, but the real test is releasing it into the real world and making fixes as they are discovered (with patches, upgrades, and service packs). Greybro: How much are PhotoShop 7 and Max 4 and the full Bryce 5? How long have their respective companies been in business? That makes a big difference. Adobe is a mega corporation with dozens of major applications (Acrobat, PhotoShop, Illustrator, LiveMotion, AfterEffects, and on and on). AutoDesk is also a mega corporation with several major applications (AutoCAD, 3D Studio Max, Character Studio, and on and on). Yes, Discreet is a subsidiary of AutoDesk. CL is not a mega corporation. How long have they had Poser? AutoDesk and Adobe have been at this for nearly twenty years. Give CL a friggin' break!! (And stop comparing $2000 apps with $300 ones). Kuroyume

I dont know how long the beta testing was and did not beta test. The only real final beta test in my humble opinion comes when the masses start getting it. Also I disagree with some statements above. Max4 was a disaster and buggy has hell. Crashed my computer so many times I quit using it until release 4.3. When LightWave 6 hit my computer took a dump. Every time I touched the exe it was freeze and the only thing that worked to get out of it was unplug. Not everybody had this problem and the fix was easy. That was a major upgrade for LW. Maya 4 was the biggest disaster I have ever seen in a 3d app. It would run for about 5 minutes and lock no matter what you did. Fixed with a patch. AOL definetly has the top spot for the most buggy program on earth. They have thousands of beta testers. I used to be one. Seven crashs on me at least ten times a day still. Windows has the reputation of being right up there with AOL even with all the programmers they have. Any of you remember when Poser4 came out? I shelved it and swore I would never use it again. P5 so far has been the least problems of any mayor program upgrade I think I have ever used. Whoops forgot a few others. Corel Draw and PhotoPaint9 was so unstable you never knew what was going to happen. Adobe I have had similar proplems with PS until patches came out. I am sorry some folks are having problems but this time I am not. Ron

P5's workin' great for me. Wouldn't have missed this party for all the world. I think too many people here underestimated how complicated this new software would be. Can't have power without paying a price. My advice to holdouts. Don't let the hysterics deter you. You're missing out on a good thing. --jjsemp

Well, I know that I did see a bug last night. I set up a new project in P5 with a Steffy Stax character. When I reloaded after a lockup, the magnets doubled on the clothing, and both dials affect the magnet. I can post a screen shot when I get home this evening.

And the 'multiplying magnet' bug is also in P4. I can totally agree that it is impossible to completely test software/hardware compatability for a commercial application, but it is possible to fix known bugs.

Ditto here. I am having a blast. Ron

I wish I was :( I'm still waiting for my copy to be shipped.

Okay, I said I don't like to argue but I have to step in one last time because many of you missed (or ignored) some of my points. No, I don't expect a defective product, which is what a buggy program is. Especially a program that's been years in the making. Especially after all the promises about taking their time, making it right, and that it wouldn't be "another Poser 4." Hell, it is Poser 4! What was taking them so long? Thebert and Kuroyume: Yes most of us know about all the different hardware configurations. So does Curious Labs, who have had Poser since its inception (they invented it). You can't compare cost or size of company, either. Zbrush costs the same as Poser and and it's a small company, too. I ran it for the 30 day trial and never suffered a hiccup. Vue 4 is cheaper than Poser and e-on is a small company, too. As stated, after turning off open gl, I never suffered a lockup in it. Same with Carrara. Oh, and I forgot Rhino in my first post. Sorry, Ron, but Max 4 never froze on me either. Haven't used it in a while, though. But none of this is the reason I started this thread. I put up with all the excuses I'd read for the P5 problems until the one that blamed the users. That got me going. But, since I don't like to argue, I'll agree instead. Okay, P5 is problem-free. All you morons out there who are having problems just don't know how to run your computers. Take a class and quit bitching.

Jackson I think your post are valid. Please dont get me wrong. I also think they are constructive and you have pointed out some things to me I did not see. I have to applaud you for that. Please what ever you find that is a problem I for one want to know about it so I can avoid it for now. Sorry if in any way I have offended you. It is people like you who have help me get around other problems with software before. Ron

Okay, I said I don't like to argue but I have to step in one last time because many of you missed (or ignored) some of my points.

Jackson:
It is difficult to swallow your point of view when you didn't even take the time to read the post you are bitching about.

Entropic never stated that program crashes are not bugs. But, if you are having problems with the renderer, that is more likely to be user error.

You didn't take the time to read and understand what Entropic had to say, nor, it seems, did you spend much time with the manual.

While bugs are not acceptable in any software, they are a fact of life. Bryce 5 crashes on me during every render. Poser 4 freezes on me several times a week. Photoshop 7 has crashed on me more than once.

I have had Mojoworld for over a week and still can't get any sort of a terrain on my planet. I have read the manual several times, posted to forums, and played endlessly with other people's planets. Clearly, I am not experienced enough to create what I have envisioned. I assume that this will come in time; just like my understanding of Poser 5 will come in time.

If the program hangs or crashes, no one is saying that you shouldn't post about it. But, it isn't a good idea to assume that it is a bug. For example, if you have a large number of splines in 3DS Max 4.2, add a cross-section and a surface (this is a pretty common routine), dramatic changes to either the threshold or the steps dial can easily crash the most powerful machines. But if you don't know why, then you assume it is a bug, when in fact, it is simply the software being too powerful for your machine. Similarly, there are options in Mojoworld that the manual clearly states are not really recommended for current machines. If it doesn't work, that doesn't necessarily mean it is a bug.

So, while all of these crahes may in fact be serious bugs, it is a good idea to write up a detailed bug report and submit it to Curious Labs with all of the information you can think of to help them track it down, so that other people will not suffer from the same problems. The software is out, buggy or not. Let's work together to improve it rather than posting endless frustrated rants about the software's problems in these forums.

Jackson I sorry, but Max 4 lockup and/or freezes some much they build in autoback, so the the system backup your work in x number of min and you don't lose all your work. I didn't say P5 is problems-free. I say all programs have bugs. It all on the configuration and you proved my piont. I have Max freezes one or two times every day and you have no problem with it. I have no problem so far with Poser 5 and You do. Proving my point. Please don't be offended. I don't like it if people start the blame game. Most new program take sometime to work off the issues. So maybe we can help what the issue you are having?

Hi, It's mathematically impossible to certify a program more than five lines long, is bug free. Though there was some fascinating experiments done in "provable computing" on the viper32 platform back in the 80's, but I digress... :) There is also an economic case to be made for shipping a program, (ready or not) after it's been in development for more then two years, "patch early, patch often" to paraphrase the users "breastplate" (a form of early Celtic protective spell :) But when is a bug a feature, and vice versa? I don't have the program (yet) so I can't really comment on anything but the renders I've seen. But the thing that has suprised me most has been the number of dud renders I've seen from the firefly render engine, and by that I mean in comparison to the p5-p4 renderer. Where missing facets and blured textures seem to be the norm. I wouldn't mind but we've been promised that all our old stuff will work with P5. Now I don't know about you, but I figure that the strength of any graphic app lies in the quality of its finished output, and while you could argue that poser is more of a pre-production tool, for a great many of us "hobbyists" it's the means of producing the finished product. One of it's selling points after all was a better renderer... I Think that a good 60%+ of "bugs" may be down to user error, and certinly during the first two weeks many people are going to cry foul first, and look stupid later. But as more people get P5, if the same issues continue to make themselves felt then somebody has to take notice. Becuase if a small number of people can't work it out, it's thier problem, but when a large number of people can't, then it's a problem with the design (if not the coding) of the program itself. later jb

Yo, guys! I'm not offended at all, I'm happy now! I'm on the team! And Kiera, check out the last line in my first post, it says almost the same as yours. And here is a quote from Entropic's thread: "I've been going through the threads tonight in this forum, and I want to let you all know where 85% of the "bugs" I have seen are coming from: Users. Rather, Inexperienced ones." "...the overwhelming concensus was that the software was not the problem, the problem was that we all think in terms of P4. I cannot stress enough that the results are there, we simply have to relearn, and grow." (emphasis by me) But you're right, Keira, I misread what he wrote. My bad. And when you write "it isn't a good idea to assume it is a bug," you're right again. Even with my 18 years experience with software, I still can't tell a bug from my own darned stupidity! duh! Ron, thanks for saying that and you didn't offend me. Really, guys, most of this is toungue in cheek. I really am happy now...I'm sorry that, when I thought Entropic was blaming the users, I got a tad upset and posted what I saw as the truth. Now I see the error of my ways! All hail Curious Labs!

Jackson: Curious Labs had Poser since its creation? I thought that it was started by MetaCreations and then transferred to Curious Labs when MetaCreations' ship sank. See here for some info: http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0004/13.poser.shtml And YOU ran ZBrush and YOU never had a hiccup. Did you talk to everybody who tried ZBrush? Did they all have error free execution? Most doubtedly. The world is neither fair nor balanced. Some developers are better than others. Some applications are simpler than others. Some design approaches are simpler or better than others. I've written one piece of flawless code in any language that I've ever used (it begins, "Hello, world"). Even with that, which is usually the simplest program ever conceived, I've seen dozens of programmers with errors and troubles, not related to their naivety with the language or programming. As you build an application, that one variable turns into thousands, tens of thousands, millions of variables. That one function (method) turns into hundreds, if not thousands, of functions. None of these live in a vacuum. The libraries and program modules all interact, variables and methods interact, and the underlying system interacts with them. Again, you might think that you have several "perfect" applications with no bugs. This is not only untrue, it is impossible. No application of sufficient size that runs on more than one static machine is perfect or without flaws and bugs (there is some mathematical proof for this). And be thankful that Poser 5 works for the most part for most people. I remember upgrading ProComm, a general communication package (dialup, web, e-mail, fax, bbs, ftp, telnet, etc), some years back. It sucked (period). It crashed, it crashed my system, it froze my system, it disabled other communication software. Obviously this was not an isolated instance as they released a "patch" (lol) several weeks later that was as large as the installation itself. IOW, they f@#ked up big time and had to practically recode their application to fix the overwhelming bugs that it shipped with. And they were a rather large software company with a large user base. Microsloth (see latest security flaws) and Apple (see 10.2 upgrade complaints) aren't as perfect either... Kuroyume

"I'm sorry that, when I thought Entropic was blaming the users, I got a tad upset and posted what I saw as the truth. " I won't respond to flames from people, becuse it would invalidate my points in my previous posts. I will say that I would never "blame" anyone intentionally, and if you find that spirit in what I write, I apologize for leaving room for interpretation. I blame the approach and the frustration, not the people themselves. As I have readily pointed out, I got frustrated to the point of calling Steve Cooper to bitch. It's a natural process to get angry when things don't work right. Being natural doesn't make it right, though. When you go to work, and everything's screwed up, do you spend your time trying to bitch about who goofed, or figuring out what's wrong and trying to fix it? I know what I do, but this question can only be answered by the individual. I just wanted people to know there was a choice involved. Paul

"For example, if you have a large number of splines in 3DS Max 4.2, add a cross-section and a surface (this is a pretty common routine), dramatic changes to either the threshold or the steps dial can easily crash the most powerful machines. But if you don't know why, then you assume it is a bug, when in fact, it is simply the software being too powerful for your machine. " Damn, girl... Great example! As a 3ds max user I know EXACTLY what you mean. =D Paul

Fractal Design had it before MetaCreations. I think they began with Poser 1. I know they did Poser 2 because that's what I started with. If you don't like Poser 5, you should have tried Poser 1 and 2. You'd appreciate P5 more.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=866356

Jackson You have every right to post. I think its good. I want to see them. You pointed out some very good stuff. Ron

But, but, but... weren't the CuriousLabs people "Gods!" in the pre-release California Dreaming threads? How could it be their faults? Just has to be all of them "inexperienced users". ;] Yeah right. Man! Now that was a damned short deification. ;] Oh well... at least casamerica's registration went smoothly.

History of Poser as far as I remember it. SHould check my boxes when I go home. :) And yes - I own all 4 (5 soon) versions Curious Labs (v1) Fractal Design (2) Metacreations (3) Curious labs (4,5)

Hmmm I thought it was: Fractal Design (1,2) Metacreations (3,4) Curious Labs (4.01 patch, PP, 5)

pretty certain metacreations did 4 originally . No idea about 1 or 2 though.

Oh well... at least casamerica's registration went smoothly.<<< Things are looking up, Ironbear! I've got Chez-Its! My wife felt so sorry for me this morning she went out and bought two boxes of Chez-Its (Sponge Bob shapes) and she even bought a huge 38oz carton of Pepperidge Farms Goldfish! I got Chez-Its AND Goldfish! I'm ready now! I will relive the ecstasy of that smooth registration! Oh, yeah! Or at least I'll be able to take out my frustrations by biting the heads off those little cheesy goldfish... casamerica

Oh kewlness cas. beams Gotta have them Cheez-its. ;] I gave up on the cheeze-its and just ordered "Food of the Gods", other wise known as a large supreme garbage pizza, extra sauce, extra cheese, extra jalapenos.

Well, IB, I've already lightened up on the Chez-Its in favor of more of the gin and tonic. The program still crashes my previously uncrashed system, but I don't seem to mind as much. ;-) I wonder why? Plus, you guessed it, the gin and tonic helps me remember that almost orgasmic registration. The days of innocence... casamerica

Actually, kippers are starting to sound pretty damn good right now. Kippers, kippers. I know I have some of them because no one else in the house will touch the smelly things. Hey! I didn't even mention how smooth my registration went! All right! casamerica

And that I still think is the important thing: at least the registration went smoothly. ;] Heh heh. Based on a few threads, a lot of people can't say that. snicker I'd switch to gin and tonics, but I quit drinking in '83...

IB, haven't you heard? The CL people are still gods; the problems with P5 are mostly caused by the users. The others are just bugs we should expect in our software. Hey, I heard someone's registration went smoothly. Don't remember who it was, tho. To clarify the poser thing: Larry Weinberg created Poser, he is now CEO of Curious Labs. Both he and Steve Cooper (and I think others at CL) worked for Metacreations before they (Meta) pulled the plug.

Oh yeah! I forgot they wuz still gods. And thank gods casamerica's registration went smoothly! Heh. ;] "Now you've paid our dues... Time after time.... We should be serving a sentence, This should be a crime... And programming mistakes, Oh we've made a few... But we've embedded them in code.. And we've sold them to you! And still it goes on and on and on and on and... And We are the Pantheon, my friends... And we'll go on coding, til the end.... We are the Pantheon For WE are the Pantheon No time for debug Cause we are the Pantheon, of the Pose. We've taken our bows, And we've planted our shills, You've built monuments to our manipulations - And all the homage that goes with it And we thank you all... But it's been no Temple of Vickies, no 3-Day cruise - We still find untapped levels of gullibilty That we've yet to use... And we'll go on and on and on and.... For We are the Pantheon, my friends... And we'll go on coding, til the end.... We are the Pantheon For WE are the Pantheon No time for debug Cause we are the Pantheon, of the Pose. We showed you our promos You demonstrated no clues.... And in spite of rude authorizations Being auto-assumed to be scumbags You've lapped up evrything we've shown to you - And clamored for more... Til we think that we could just repackage P2 - And sell those by the score! And still it goes on and on and on and on and... For We are the Pantheon, my friends... And we'll go on coding, til the end.... We are the Pantheon For WE are the Pantheon No time for debug Cause we are the Pantheon, of the Pose " - Ironbear

With all due apologies to Freddie Mercury.

Ironbear: :0) casamerica: Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast. Kuroyume

Bravo! Bravo, IB! My favorite line: "We still find untapped levels of gullibilty" Amen to that, brother. And, yes, we should thank the Gods who control All That Is Poser for casamerica's smooth registration!

Yeah well, nice thing is, if it all does crash and burn, once it's done, we can all go back to doing important stuff.... ............................................. ;0 Er... we DID have important stuff to do, dint we? Or was this it and I didn't get the memo again? ;]

casamerica: Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.<<< Yes! A fellow Dwarfer! I was hoping I wasn't the only depraved one here. casamerica