Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=10436

Hmmm This seems like the Poser equivalent of 'Paint By Numbers'. Still....it's a big market and there's room for everything. mac

I'm not criticising Eowyn for the item. As you say it's a big market, supply and demand and all that but at the top of the page it says "Online graphic artist's (sic) community" Oh well care in the community.

I'd look at items like this the same way I would view any texture I buy: as a starting point. Others would buy a texture and leave it as is. Room for both. But I can actually see some value in this, particularly if you're not that versed in Photoshop.

What's pathetic about it?? That I don't have time to learn PS?? Yah, you could say that - but I could also certainly say I don't have time to learn how to add custom aftermarket graphics to my car either. Not that I couldn't do it given the time & inclination.

Nah - these are 'goodies', I think. Figure that most 'art' ('cause I know your definition of art is your own) is for personal taste - not always for the public, even tho we offer up our workings for others to see. If I have an image & want to see what it'd look like with a certain effect on it - woe to me for not knowing the ins and outs of PS - but someone has nicely placed a number of effects in the marketplace that someone else may find value in and therefore shells out the money to be able to further enhance or experiment with on their image.

You know what this reminds me of really?? Going to a craft show and seeing things I know I could make and gazing in wonderment & shock at the prices. Then coming upon a booth with a sign that says "Yes, you could make it too - but will you?"

Tisa, Do you feel cheated? Unappreciated as an artist? Does this type of post make you feel better about yourself? Or are you just annoyed? You've already expressed in earlier messages that you don't think anyone here is an 'artist', so I'm curious why you continue to post here? I'm not trying to stop you from posting, I'm just baffled about your intentions (assuming it's not merely trolling). People will continue to make products and if there's a demand for them, people will buy them - I don't think there's any reason to insult merchants for making products people want. Technology will continue to move forward and will therefore encroach on areas formerly done manually... this may raise the bar for getting appreciation as an 'artist' (apparently Poser itself has already raised it beyond reach in your eyes), but it doesn't diminish the 'art' itself. If the images here are pleasing to you, view and enjoy them. If they're not... well, uhm... respectfully: Go Somewhere That They Do. Cheers, - Keith

If you look at my day (in another message) you'd understand that if someone, anyone can get a character, clothing, and/or prop to work as "expected" in P5 then that might be something I'd consider buying. frustrated, Frustrated, FRUSTrated, FRUSTRATED!

Tisa, I think it is always a good thing to lower the "initial hurdle". Two reasons: 1. If it CAN be made easy, then make it easy. Whether something is easy or hard should have nothing to do with its artistic merit. The artist can then spend their time elsewhere in the process. Do YOU mix your oil paints from pigments, like the Renaissance masters did? ;) 2. Once someone has mastered what can be done using available effects and actions, they will know more of what is possible, and have a sense of "I can do it". This will inspire some to go on to learn deeper use of tools, and greater self expression. 3. Those who don't go on, will still have accomplished more than they could. Isn't that great? 4. You aren't perhaps feeling a tiny bit threatened that someone will think they can do art easily, devaluing YOUR creative efforts? Fear not. Remember when the Mac first came out, and EVERYONE could make documents full of a plethora of fonts? The result was amusing, yes? Eventually every advance sorts itself out... -- ToolmakerSteve

Anyone who thinks 3D art is easy because we don't create every single component ourselves, or thinks that the software does everything for you so therefore it isn't really art...really doesn't have any idea what it involves. Sure, sometimes, some things come easily, almost too easily to really want to take credit for it. Then again, be able to recreate a vision from your imagination and your heart, to share with others is really all art is. Does it matter what your tools are? Yes, you can purchase every single component to an image, right down to the camera, but it still takes skill to be able to put those things together in a way that evokes feeling, that truly embodies your artistic vision. All of those things will need to be modified to really communicate what you are trying to say/show.

Have you seen the amount of feedback for that product Tisa? Look's like you're the only one who doesn't like it.

You buy the easel
You buy the paint
You buy the brushes
You buy a Bob Ross book (Well... some ppl have to.)
You buy the camera
You buy the film
You wait for something cool and pretty to show up so you can take a picture of it (Oh BTW... your same question, did you create Chloe, did you make the lighting used for that pic? I guess what I want to know is did you make anything yourself on that photo???
You drop it off at the photo lab....
What is left for the artist to do is have a thought process. I see by your gallery you can pull one of those up. (Nice hairy arm pits btw.) :D
So what. people buy props, characters, etc. Some have skills that exceed everyone elses, therefore they are the ones that model.
Some of the post work done to pics (you have some on yours too :P) is art just the same. Post work isn't easy for everyone. I am not really a PS user, I prefer PSP, we don't get to use actions for that, but, I do have PS, and I have used an action or two. Cool thing about actions is that it shows you the steps as it goes. THAT does help a person learn how to do the effect themself. Art is about learning, and open mindedness.
Ok, before I break the TOS and say what I really feel, I am going now. But, thank you, oh Great one, for again sharing your all knowing artistic wisdom, and making us all see the light of what art is and isnt, and how it should be created.

Yes virtual site I can see the point of using a bought item as a starting point but to buy every single element in the composition and not even attempt to do ones own postwork is the point where I think it's getting ridiculous. There is no way an image produced in that fashion cab be called art or at least not ones own art. It is the art of the vendor. I can also see a use for PS actions I use them all the time for repetative work but if someone is going to shell out $600 or %700 or whatever it is now surely they can learn the very basics such as auto contrast button, colour correction, desaturate etc without having to buy actions to do it for them. Maybe the next really succesful merchant will be the one who actually makes the complete image on request. "Tisa, Do you feel cheated? Unappreciated as an artist? Does this type of post make you feel better about yourself? Or are you just annoyed?" No Spanki none of those things. Thanks for asking. the rest of your response is very creative with the truth or to put it simply for you it is untrue. I've never I've never said "I don't think anyone here is an 'artist'" so please dont misquote me nor have I insulted Eowyn. so if you wish to debate this point please stick to reality and the truth. Momcat I did not say "Anyone who thinks 3D art is easy because we don't create every single component ourselves, or thinks that the software does everything for you so therefore it isn't really art...really doesn't have any idea what it involves." Again please do not misquote me and try reading before you respond. Yes I have you seen the amount of feedback for that product pdblake. That is what saddens me. It's remarkable that so many people pay such a large amount of money for what I believe to be the best image editing software around and then have to buy actions to do the perform the simplest of funtions that they could do after a 10 minute reading of the manual

Briggie LOL you have really missed the point completely haven't you?

Nope, I sure haven't missed anything. You come in here constantly whining about who is an artist and who isn't. Now you are whining about what makes a real artist, and putting down someone who is a great person for what they have choosen to offer to the community. All your points that you made about Eowyn can be made about all forms of art, even the ones on your gallery. That was my point. You missed that I guess. Oh but wait, your point is the only one that means anything, for you are the one and only source of all that is art. Forgive me for thinking I was entitled to an opinion.

Well first, this forum has been an excellent resource. The products and the market prove that. I still think that the fact that all of these "extras" encourage and demonstrate to the newer person the steps it takes to create an image which satisfys them in terms of their learning and further encourages them to continue using poser is a benefit to everyone. What seems to be the complaint is that all the technical work has been taken out of the steps, well ok. But there are still choices on which lights, what after effect, what pose and what props and backgrounds....these images do not just happen just because there are presets....but a person who has a visual reward for choosing the right things will experiment more and will gain confidence faster. Yes yes yes, the old fashion way may be better because you develop your own "library" but that final image still is a matter of choosing from the tricks and tools each of us have learned... I think it is great that we still have tutorials and we have the vendors making presets as well....time is our enemy and we are all wanting to get those poser folk to take a great image....each person is able to start at their own level....

In a sense I can understand what you're saying. Simply because I have decided that I'm going to learn everything by doing it. I do photography, - I've started modelling (a whole different world than posing), I pose and make animations in Poser, - I render in Bryce. I make most of the textures myself. I do my own postwork (has taken me a couple of years to be efficient and pretty OK with Photoshop, - Photopaint and other graphical programs). In short, - the learning curve for getting to use all of these programs is darned high. I have the luxury to have this as a hobby, - and I can spend a lot of my time playing and learning. With all the difeerent - and sometimes weird interfaces you can imagine how long time it will take to be a good user of: Photoshop, Amapi, Poser, UV-mapper, Bryce, Terragen (to get decent skies in Bryce), cr2-edit, and a dozen of other small and large utility programs. I guess I am a person like you, who likes to bake a cake from scratch. As a matter of fact, I often feel like I'm harvesting the corn and grinding to get the flour as well. I think that it's time to say it's OK to buy a cake-mix. The cake might look well, - and taste great without doing everything from scratch. There are so many "philosophies" out there. Some are "purists" and say that if you don't make a render completely in Poser, - it's not "Poser-art". I don't share that view, but I respect those who feel that way. Britt

Tisa, I understand the theory; please show me the reality. Please point me to an image where someone bought "every single element in the composition and not even attempt to do ones own postwork". I haven't seen one. Second, why does it bother you so much? I understand minor annoyance, but it seems you feel more strongly than that. Please help me understand.

Just my two pennies worth. Look at what DJs do these days: they take snippets of original music, mix them together in a hap hazard manner, and then call it a record. Is that art? Are they really artists?Fat Boy Slim would think so. Even tho a loop from his "Praise You" song was taken from an original, and whose original artist wasn't too happy about it. But thats beside the point. He would still consider himself, and other DJs, to be artists. Even tho all they do is recombine pieces of other people's work and pass it off as their own. What we do with these 3D software is no different.Furthermore, thats the intention of the software makers!Within limits, of course. Damien Hurst stuck a dead sheep in a tank of formaledhyde. He didn't create the sheep, the forces of evolution/God/whatever did. Mozart didn't build the piano he used to create music; Van Gogh didn't build his own easel or make his own brushes, to paint the Sunflowers. It's been said in the previous posts: the creativity and imagination of the end user defines them as an artist. Doesn't matter if they haven't literally created anything themselves. Of course, being able to say that you built the model, whatever, yourself, is an ego boost ;) JoeBlack

Tisa - you've hit on one thing (albeit in a round-about way) that I have a issue with - with myself. I do not consider myself an 'artist' for many of the reasons you put forth - a lot of what I use is not directly made by me. The textures, props, lights, clothing, figure, etc. There are only two things which I would lay claim to as having 'created' (available in my freestuff) and I needed a starting point to even do those. Much the same way an interior decorator takes a bunch of premade/prebought items and compiles a beautiful room - so is my endeavor with what I create in Poser. There are instances in which I modify textures, change them, mess with the lighting a little bit - but nothing major or horribly original. So - I tend to call myself more of a 'compiler'. While I do have PS - I've had PSP longer & am much more familiar with it & use it to do my postwork - yes, I do my own postwork.

If not for all the talented and giving people of this community - the visions which populate my overactive (and yes, perhaps cliche) imagination could never be born. To me it would feel like I was doing a primal scream in a room full of people and they couldn't hear me. Hopeless......helpless...... - thank god for Poser and its community. :) So, revile me for my lack of ability - but my comfort comes from having these tools and items - and any judgement of me for that reason falls on deaf ears.

Also - I learned something new today - I didn't know that when you do an 'action' in PS - that you see all the steps. :) Now, what an interesting way to learn something - in reverse. L It tends to be the best way for me to finally understand something - reading a manual literally makes me tired.

I don't consider myself an artist so I should probably shut up...actually, I should probably shut up most of the time g and have probably pissed off everyone here at least once, should've, could've, would've...yeah...well... but, I don't think anyone has the right to ridicule anybody else's work; be that work an image, a product or an idea. I drive 100 miles round trip to work (and I don't have a "crap" job) daily, I have 4 horses, 2 dogs and take care of this place myself. I live 30 mile out of town (opposite the direction I drive to work, of course) so if I run out of toilet paper it's a 60 mile drive I have no graphics background other than what I've been able to teach myself, and I'm not very good at staying focused...or else, as I suspect, there's so much wonderful stuff out there to learn, where the hell do you start? g Anyway, the point of this is...I'll buy any damned thing that I think will help me, even if it helps me realize that I'm spending too much money So there Tisa

"I've never said "I don't think anyone here is an 'artist'" so please dont misquote me..." Ok, I'll let your own words speak for themselves... http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=863235 - "Does anyone know of any sites where people create art with Poser rather than throwing together a few products and hitting the render button?" Clearly, people who 'create art' could be called artists... you are looking for a site with artists. ~shrug~. (same thread) - "There are one or two people who are very good crafts people but not found anything yet that I would clasify as great, or even not so great, art." ...you refer to members here as 'crafts people', not 'artists'. "Skillfull yes but art.. not in my opinion." ...again, if it's not art, it was not created by an 'artist'. Me: "You've already expressed in earlier messages that you don't think anyone here is an 'artist'..." I stand by that... I didn't quote you to start with, I said that you'd "expressed" the sentiment. If you read your quotes above, I think it's pretty clear that: a. you don't find anything here that you consider art. b. and therfore you don't refer to anyone here as an artist. c. and only a few people rise to the 'crafts person' status. If you think I've misrepresented you or quoted out of context, the link is provided above - you and anyone else are free to read it themselves. "if you wish to debate this point please stick to reality and the truth." I don't really care to debate it... the reality and truth is in your quotes above. I asked you why you post these things and you didn't answer, you just seem to want to debate it, which is what I feared. Have fun, - Keith

Ooops.. I left something out... "This would be rather funny if it wasn't so pathetic" ... "nor have I insulted Eowyn" ...well, you were either insulting Eowyn or anyone who bought the product - I guess it doesn't really matter except that it's a better troll if you can insult a lot of people at once, so you're on the right track ;).

surely they can learn the very basics such as auto contrast button, colour correction, desaturate True enough. I teach Illustrator and PS as extensions courses at one of our local colleges. Know I get them interested in the power of Photoshop? By giving them an action and then taking it apart. Some people will learn from these, others won't. The ones who won't probably aren't artists -- I daresay not even craftspeople :) -- the ones who do are. Room for all, ma'am.

It brings into focus the major complaint that other graphic artists have about Poser users - that we are just software users, button pushers. If all the steps in the process are automatic, machine-generated, then where's the human element of creativity? Critics will say we just end up with endless series of images that are clones of each other, mass-produced. Same faces, same hair, same clothes, same temples, same poses, same swords, same dragons, same fairies ad nauseum. Personally I disagree with the anti-Poser snobbery. I think it can be a real tool towards some original and creative art, and the critics complaints don't have an artistic basis - just a dismissive attitude of elitism, segregation and exclusion because they feel insecure and threatened by anything new. They're stuck in the past with their pencils and smudged-up papers and other 17th century technology. They think everyone should be held down by the same burden, that art is only for the elite, superior supermen of esthetics.

since our galleries are so vast, i normally click on the pictures that show something that i think is cool looking. for instance, an interesting character, a pretty gown, or a dramatic background....even a cool hairdo. i respect those who made such things. however, when i see....which is most of the time....renders where all the cool stuff is made by someone else, i respect the person who made the cool stuff a whole lot more than the person who assembled the cool stuff into a render. still, if that person used a cool pov, or did their own dramatic lighting....even very detailed postwork, they will get some of my respect. the renders that utilize pose, lights, characters, clothing and backgrounds all made by others, may be nice to look at, but, to me, they are more of "product showcases" than anything else. there are artists, here. it is not fair to imply that those who make the lovely characters, backgrounds, lighting sets, hair, clothing and poses that others purchase are not. i just think more of us should be trying to go a little farther with poser....if susy can make an awesome character, where is it written in stone that jennie needs susie's character. jennie could learn to make her own, with some effort, i bet.

I have always consider Poser closer akin to photography than to painting. When I started with Poser I had some familiarity with photography, but no background with painting (computer or otherwise). With Poser, I set up my scene like I would a photo shoot. I don't need to create my model, props, and such from scratch. These are simply elements that go into making the scene. How I arrange the figures and props, ligth the scene, and place the camera, etc., is what makes or breaks the picture. The fact that I use a filter to alter or enhance the natural sunlight or a certain lens or film speed to take the picture, is that cheating? But then there are those who do not consider Photography to be art. Anyone can buy a camera and take a picture. No talent needed. But to paint a picture and have it praised as a work of art. That takes talent, a refrigerator, some magnets, and a warm heart and lots of hugs and kisses to bestow on the artist! :O)

Here we go again - is it art if you use a tool that does the drudgery for you? IMHO - that depends on whether it's art ;o) Good ideas and creative vision has little to do with whether or not you can handle a brush, a wacom or a mouse. Just for the record : the images in the accompanying pic span a decade starting with traditional tools, moving thru Painter, and ending with Poser. I can do PICTURES with all those tools - I'm still no ARTIST, because I have no particular vision or ideas (working on it desperately, though ;o) ). As for the item that seeems to have spurred this thread - adding a touch of magic to a boring, uninspiring pic, IMHO, just means you have a magically boring and uninspiring pic. I won't claim I know what art is, I'm still trying to figure it out - just wanted to put in my 0.2 before this thread (like many others) discourages some of the start-ups who just might have real artistic vision that Poser can set free.

Thip, you are not an Artist. You are better than that! :O)

This may be an aside to the general thread but I can't agree with what Poppi seems to be saying. Maybe I have it backwards, but to my way of thinking the one who creates a character, texture, prop or whatever is the craftsman - the builder of something from nothing. The one who then takes all these elements and uses them to create an image which stirs something in the heart of the viewer is the artist. Like I say, maybe my view of what an artist is or isn't is all wrong but for the life of me I can't look at a texture map and think of it as art. Jack

wow, thip!!! very nice.

I really don't know just why you let Tisa get under your skin, guys.

not under my skin chuck - just making a point :-]

And I read your point. It was well made. But it just took me nearly 3 minutes to have this thread show up (R'City not so fast these days). Assuming other people are experiencing the same "speed" (grin), I'd think they'd rather put their waiting to a more useful purpose...not one wasted on a person like this. I kinda figured people would remember her last controversial message thread and then consider the source and move on. But, as people say, ya gotta do what ya gotta do...hehe. Take care Silver!

Hrmmm.... I'm a little confused here. I don't have VS's background of teaching PS and Illustrator, but I'm reasonably adept with both. I've literally spent hours designing photoshop and illustrator actions to automate repetitive imaging tasks that I know I'm going to do often - old rule of thumb: if you do it more than 3 times the same way, make an action of it and save it. Frees up time better spent experimenting with new techniques. I'll also go to various photoshop sites and download free actions and brush presets if I see something that will be useful and save me a few minutes down the road. How is spending effectivly 60 cents an action substantially different? Assuming I care to spend the money, it's MY money... shrug As far as artist, I always liked an old co-workers term "I'm a commercial graphics technician". ;] Man thip... I need to browse your work more often. Very cool. ;]

There are only 26 letters in the English alphabet yet they can be rearranged and combined to express anything imaginable. There are probably thousands of different characters, poses, light sets, and textures, available for Poser that can all be varied even further and then combined to express anything imaginable. Add to that the old saying that "a picture is worth a thousand words". Combining all of these things is an Art, how can you doubt that? Especially after looking at the galleries?

yes, but what of those who basically use presets, with not even enough care to uncross vicki's eyes? what i see are quite a few folks who use the newest market characters, lights, poses, textures, backgrounds, etc....and that's it. they expect these "tools" to be doing the creating for them. i mentioned in my first post....an interesting pov, some dramatic lighting can get some respect from me. there are many who upload 3 in one day...and, they all look just like the "stock" products that can be purchased....and positioned smack dab in the middle of a huge render of a purchased background. i think this may kind of be what tisa is talking about...at least in part.

"Momcat I did not say "Anyone who thinks 3D art is easy because we don't create every single component ourselves, or thinks that the software does everything for you so therefore it isn't really art...really doesn't have any idea what it involves." Again please do not misquote me and try reading before you respond." I was not quoting you, therefore, I could not have misquoted you. Please do not accuse me of doing such and try reading before you respond. You may be trying to get one point across, but the way you do it implies something else entirely. Your post implies that purchasing all of these items is all that is required of the artist, and that no further skill is now required. that, in essense, anyone can use these items and call themselves an artist, without involving any of that nasty blood, sweat and tears, that "real" artists put into their work. This seems to be what bothers you. I could be wrong, but I call it as I see it. I think your focus is misdirected at the tools an artist uses. Art goes beyond ones tools. I happen to think that a great many of the artists here are stuck. Their images are technically excellent, but they lack soul, and quite frankly, many of them look like variations of the same theme. These artists have all influenced eachother so heavily, that it becomes difficult to tell one from another. I often find myself going from image to image in the galleries and seeing the same lifeless (though stunningly executed)images recreated over and over again. I would be more concerned with the stagnation of original creativity than I would be with the use of purchased tools.

also, i think art requires time and thought. folks who can cough up 3 renders a day, perhaps could be thinking more...just sitting back, not rendering....and feeling a bit..music helps. my last render (to poser gallery)took 3 weeks, maybe, a little longer. and, i like it. you may not, your neighbor may think it sucks, but, i like it. i had a vision. i did my best to make a picture and show it to others. and, i think i did that. at the speed poser renders, and, the speed this place runs (sometime) at....rendering and uploading may take as much time as the actual creation of some of those 3 pic a day folk. or am i just slow?

Poppi, I see that too; and it also bothers me. What bothers me even more are the oohs and ahhs some of these artists get, and like I said, while perhaps excellently executed, there's still that Vicky in a vogue pose with the default expression. YUp, her hair is perfectly painted, her gown and skin textures flawless, the scene so romantic or heroic, the lighting oh so dramatic...she could care less. There is no light within.

If it lets someone achieve the result they want without plagerising, that's what matters. 'Nuff said.

Momcat...you've got it!!! the light within. nicely put. i think this may bother quite a few of us. maybe, this is what bothers tisa. and, you are right about the 25 oohs and ahhs. to test this: simply give a honest...no, strike that....sugar coated, trying to be honest but glowing...and see how you get flamed. possibly even a troll, by these folks. however, no one can force growth on anyone in the galleries.

Too true.

I don't see the problem here with either the vendor or the user of the product. My best wishes all of them. The vendor has found a way to create a product that is useful to alot of obviously happy people, who in turn feel better about their final creation. Why would you possibly want to tear that down and knock these people? Many in this community (myself included) don't even consider ourselves to be artists, but hobbyists. We enjoy feeling a part of a group of people who really are artists capable of producing genuinely good work such as the examples shown by Thip, and having the opportunity to communicate with them. No delusions of immortal greatness or historical significance with my work for sure.
The goal of improving software is ultimately to provide better results for the user, and I, as one who will not ever posess any natural CG gift, appreciate it. I know people who don't even consider any creation generated on a computer to even BE art; but would claim that a torched bicycle rewelded into a contorted configuration is. Without people like us Tisa, you wouldn't have the yardstick you need against which you need to measure your obvious brilliance.

Wow what a lot of messages since I went away. Momcat if you weren't adressing that origional comment to me I aplogise. Poppi and Momcat Yes I agree with you entirely. You have put across the point I am trying to make. I have nothing against Poser it's self I use it regularly. As for all the other silly mis quotes and flaming above I'll just ignore.

Heh. It probably wasn't intended to work that way, but one thing this thread [and others like it] did is get people like me to follow the link, look at the product, and decide wether it's something we can use or not. ;] Might not be the kind of exposure Eowyn would like, neccessarily, but it's probablly gotten that page a lot of hits to see what the fuss is about. And even negative promos that gets one a few sales and exposure is all for the good. grin Seriously, Eowyn does good work and a lot of people know that, so I'm not sure if this even qualifies as "negative exposure". People that already like Eowyn's products will keep that in mind and choose accordingly.

We have a beginner's gallery. Why don't we have a separate gallery or forum for the advanced artists....one that solicits highly critical feedback in order to produce the evolution of better 3D art. And those of us who don't pretend to be artists and don't care about artistic pretentions and don't have much interest in the opinions of the art critics and are just trying to have a good time and enjoy ourselves don't have to participate unless and until we are ready to evolve to that higher level? And those of us who are still learning can use the tools at hand, as we wish and without criticism because there will be an acknowledgement that as learners we have need of tools, while the advanced artists who have evolved beyond needing such aids can produce all their art from scratch without the use of existing models, textures, or props but instead create their own, and provide proof that they have originated every item themselves (maybe the advanced gallery could have a certification program). I guess you can still use the various software programs unless the requirement is all the artists have to learn programming...could make the gallery a little small, though. Just an idea. Might help us figure out who is the real artist and who is the poser.

Good idea Dialyn but how about instead of having a separate gallery for the advanced artist, we have a separate gallery for the artist who makes an effort. and before you all start shouting again yes there are a lot of people who make a very good effort but there are a lot who don't. Hence the lack of "Light within"

The problem with having a gallery of artists who "make an effort," is who will make that determination? I'm not an artist and never will be one, so I don't have to worry about applying for application into those hallowed halls, but I do sense that the people most wanting to make that decision are too arbitrary and biased to judge fairly. A lot of people I think are "making an effort" and I envy their growth and their achievements from my seat in the amateur bandstand, but I'm glad I'm too unartistic to decide who is worthy and who is not. I keep in mind the story of Van Gogh, one of many in art history who was not considered worthy by the art critics of his time, those who thought he wasn't making the proper effort according to their judgment....my, my, isn't funny how wrong a critic can be? And yet I am sure they were self righteous in their opinion that Van Gogh had nothing to offer as he learned his craft and perfected it into art. Oh well. Bored now. Good night all.

C'mon guys, we all know that artist's ego's run big, especially around here. Granted, I know I have an ego, so I'm partly to blame as well.... However, I think that a product such as this can lead to other things. Personally when I first started using PS some 4 and a half years ago, I didn't know what I was doing and this would have helped a lot. I've downloaded a few actions and ripped them apart just to see how stuff was done. It can be used as a learning too and a jumpstart to other things. In my art, I use Poser as a tool, the same as Bryce, PhotoShop, Kai's Power Tools, actions, hand drawing, among other things. We all must keep one thing in mind, art IS subjective. What one person considers art, another may not. For that reason, stuff like the photoshop actions exist, it's a big world...let's leave people to how they want to express themselves.

I think ALOT of people are missing some key points...one of which I expressed to someone only recently. The person (whom shall remain nameless at this time) was considering placing a character texture into the marketplace and has never sold anything there, before. I suggested that since it is their "first time out"...and also since alot of people don't buy textures only...it would be good to include some extras like light sets and poses to go along with it...thus making it a more atractive item to purchase..more value for the money.