Hi this is the second RESPECTED member (there may be more) who has said this week that they are 'walking' due to the actions of another member I think it's about time this was sorted out. It may be that there are other members of this 'family' who have quietly left and not told anyone. If it's the same Troll causing the trouble with members perhaps the proverbial Lynch mob ought to be formed.! and who ever it/they are should be dragged out into the sunlight and turned to stone. yes I know this will proably get me into trouble but I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling like this (Thread will be locked soon no doubt) sorry about this but it's how I feel Dave

It sure is a sad week here, we have to stand by our friends who are getting hammered. I don't know who it is but if it was brought to the attention of the moderators I am sure they will help fix this. Sharen

I agree, this is getting both ridiculous and sad. If the mods don't do anything about this, I'd like the hurtful IMs and mails to be posted on this forum so that everyone can see how terrible some of them really are. Leaving only hurts your friends and deprives you of all the resources that this site has to offer. It can be easier to deal with trolls once you see that they very rarely have galleries, nor do they provide anything useful to the community. The opinions that matter should be from the people that matter to you, not from someone who's simply looking to cause trouble. Anyway, just my thoughts. Take care. SnowS

draw them out of the shadows into the light ,so that everyone can see them!!!

Hi Thanks for the support I've just Im'd Lyrra but when she will see my message I don't know, perhaps someone else could contact one of the other mods sooner. thanks anyway Dave (who's never liked bullies)

I have a suspicion that it's not about trolling. Don't ask me why; it's just an intuition that it's probably more to do with ziggie's contributions to Free Stuff. You remember the "fun and games" that happened a while ago? Whatever the reason, the motherf*ing cksucker who made ziggie want to leave should be kicked right out of this place. Or, just plain kicked. Paul (who also never liked bullies).

Dave you know by now that bullies hide behind others, they can not face things like others, you stand tall and don't let them bully you, that is what they want. We will stand with you my friend....Sharen

Mighty hard talk, folks. I don't pay all that much attention to the Forum posts but I have been seeing, if only peripherially, some sort of "war" a-brewin'. Somebody fill me in on the details...who said what to whom and why? Jesus, I feel like I'm back in grade school and some kids are about to take a little trip to Fist City while the teachers aren't around. Wish I knew who's wearing the white hats and who's wearing the black ones.

Maybe, just maybe, Legume, you're wrong here. I believe ziggie has received a number of very unpleasant IMs recently. AFAIK, it doesn't take "two to tango" in such a situation. If by "playing with the dog" you mean joining 'Rosity, then that's true of us all, but there's a world of difference between that and someone pissing all over you with spiteful messages. Some people take it worse than others and it's not for you - or me - to judge what the acceptable limits are.

Legume, I have to agree with Sam Therapy, what is acceptable for you may be way to far for someone else. I don't know what has caused ziggie to leave, he never mentioned anything to me, but if he feels that it is to much, then, for him it is.

Hmmm... Even if I truly don't want Ziggie to leave, the toughts expressed by Legume HAS crossed my mind. It's a tad melodramatic to announce your leaving... Even if it may not be meant that way, but just as a way of publically saying "This is to much" it's still a way of getting attention just as bad as the Troll. But still Ziggie, IF you read this: PLEASE DON'T GO! I'll miss your humor! And YOU!

Legume I think you do have a point and a good one. But there are times that all of us need encouragement that we are wanted and liked, if this is what he wants, it doesn't take that much to aid a friend, if he is having a bad day what does it hurt to add some friendly words, it doesn't take much....I agree there are some real cry babies here and there but then again we get so much crap from the world everyday, what does it hurt and to be honest I have not seen Ziggie do this before. Sharen

Legume, you're right and wrong, IMO. I've seen the same thing many times, too. But... There's a real live human being at the end of the messages and not all of us are able to cope with the shit that sometimes gets thrown around. No, I'm not a happy clappy kinda guy, and I find it dead easy to say "Fuck 'em", but I also understand when others can't do that. For all we know, he could be going through some great big upheaval in his personal life and doesn't need this kinda shit. All I know is - zig is a nice guy, something has upset him and I'm sorry to see him go.

Your playing a bit ruff Legume. Some of us never built up walls to shield us from verbal abuse. Ziggie spent many hours working hard to give something back to all of us and he got trashed buy hard ass people who didnt give a flying F**k about anything but themselfs. He deserved better than that.

Well I know of someone else who is leaving, and it breaks my heart, she is a very nice person, and has receieved numerous IM's and e mails from nasty people, who have done nothing but complain about her generosity. She is a real sweetheart and wouldn't do anything to hurt anyone, but some people enjoy hurting her, and she tells me she has reached her limit. Legume, I respect your opinions, but I too also think everyone handles things differently, and that the I'm leaving threads are not a cry for attention, just a cry saying I can't take this anymore, and I want the people I have come to know, and respect to know I am leaving. jmho

Whatever in the world is going on here? catching up for the week, here, and i see that two folks are leaving. yet, i see nothing actually indicating WHY? like legume, i tend to roar back at folks who make me mad...but, i can see, and respect that others can get hurt by some of the junk that goes on around here. however, i see no reason, at all why anyone would go out of their way to harass either ziggy or marque. this is puzzling, to say the least.

NEVER...EVER LET THE BASTARDS WIN!!! EVER. Ziggie: your "mouse mobile" made me laugh so hard, it hurt. But, you know something: it helped me a lot that night. I needed it. Never lose that wonderful sense of humor. Time heals, so does laughter. Let your friends here help you heal. That goes for 'Dot's friend as well. That's all we're saying here. This ain't no passion play. This is life. No "Goodbye Cruel World" terrorism here. So please. don't send the Marines. We're just people, good people for the most part, trying to cope and make the world a bit better maybe. No cavalry needed; no high horses; just some humanity. Why is that so hard?

I too haven't been around for a long while-- this is all news to me. I'd just like to say to anyone who may be suffering this kind of abuse: squeaky wheels know what they get, and they squeak until they get it. For every abusive comment received by a person who has gone just two steps to give something to the community, there are at least ten silent thankful for the work you've done. I hope you'll just remember that, even if you do decide to leave. It's your choice, but I hate to see thugs and bullies win any day. :(

Legume, you're absolutely right about how to deal with the situation. I hope ziggie stops by to read it - and anyone else feeling the same way. As for zig's whereabouts, being a Brit, he's probably out getting well and truly leathered right now - as I would be, were it not for this damn flu. :(

Legume, this one line of yours kinda hit a nerve here... 'If someone here is being bullied, then it's their own damn fault.' I was bullied actively when I was at school. from the age of 4 to the age of 15. was it my fault? actually no. one, I was in a school that consisted of the dregs of Ealing's school system. you could not get expelled from Ealing Green, cos it was where they sent you when you were expelled from everywhere else. Me? I was sent there cos my uncle went there. I went out of my way not to be bullied. even to the point of making sure I got detentions etc. While I was there, 4 children were put in hospital by the action of the bullies. 1 lost a kidney, 2 with broken ribs and the other with a broken leg. the bullies? they got away. now I will not let any bully win. then I ran. now I make a stand. you say it's the persons own damn fault. not right. you can go out of your way to appease these ppl and it will not work. the only way to beat them? stand together. if they want trouble, don't let them target 1 person. they haveto target us all. Kai (PS - the 2nd reason? I have Aspergers Syndrome.. makes me kinda strange - the teachers etc let me down. it was not diagnosed until my Nephew was diagnosed.. when my sister was told her first question was 'why are you decribing my Brother....oh shit' - I got checked out.. and yup I have it and I was diagnosed at the age of 29. to late for any help)

Well, Dr. Legume is a tough egg by any stretch of the imagination. I imagine he has resistance in him where the rest of us are wondering where all our bones have gone. ;)

I don't know what's going on but why would you (a collective "you" to anyone who wants to leave over something someone said) let someone push you out? Why do you even care what someone else thinks?

If someone's upset over the gallery discussions they need to toughen up a bit. I don't care what someone else thinks and I don't do things differently because of the opinons of another person.

If someone's getting IM's that are abusive or harrassing, send them to an Admin. If nothing else they'll get to it on Monday and deal with it. Just don't expect them to jump on command on a weekend.

Don't let someone push you around.

i got bullied for a while when we first came to the states. some boys used to gang up on me on my way home from school, and knock me down, and make my clothing dirty....which got me bullied at home by my mom. also, they would gang up on me and steal my money, when i was on the way to the little store, close by. i was new, did not speak the language...maybe, a little...and, had no friends to help me out. but, i had, what i felt what was right in my heart. i started to lurk...to watch when they would go to the candy store. then, one saturday, i went before them. i hid behind the store, and, rushed out and clobbered the lead bully on the head with the biggest rock i could find. he started to cry, then, to bleed. his buddies ran off. and, HE NEVER TOLD....i was a girl, very small for my age, and, had no friends. however, after that, guess what? yup, i got some friends, actually, lots of friends. i wasn't the only kid who hated those bullies, it seems. we grow up to be who we are, often do to stupid unchangeable circumstances of childhood. however, when we have to change...it isn't really ever 2 late.

Isn't it amazing that what used to be called bullying when we were in school is now called child abuse? Peer to peer, child to child, it's still physical and emotional abuse. Shakes head And yep I was bullied in school.

First off, I must chime in and say that I agree with Legume. Life sucks, and it usually sucks because there are idiots out there. Just ignore them, and they will go away. If not, you can do things to make them go away. 1. You can turn of IM chat notices on your user profile here. Simple. Easy. No more pesky assholes IM-ing wanting to know if you are into have the House Mouse shoved up your nether regions. 2. Last time I checked, an email can be deleted instantaneously with a single click. Furthermore, alsmost every email package out there lets you set up filters to block individuals. Get one bad email, add them to the list. Get on with your life. If you don't know the person, and they flame/insult/hurt your "widdle feewings, get over it. Just add them to the above lists and get on with it. Why take crap personally from someone you do not know. - Ray

tasquah wrote

"...hard ass people who didnt give a flying F**k about anything but themselfs."

IMO, although there are some exceptions, this is the way most of the people in the USA are. Ziggie, Marque, and the rest should just ignore them.

"If you don't know the person, and they flame/insult/hurt your "widdle feewings, get over it. " You know guys .. while I agree with the sentiment the logic behind it, it's statements like this that are NOT needed. Legume is right behind the logical aspect. BUT Somepeople have a hard time seperating real time and cyber time.

i think bullies are cowards. i found that out early on, when i came to north america. IMO, although there are some exceptions, this is the way most of the people in the USA are. this is an interesting observation. long ago, i thought that, as well....and, i am still not sure if it is a truism. my early childhood was free of bullies...i moved, here, and got my first taste of them. and, still, to this day see them, or wannabee bullies, abounding.

Hi Ok Ok I agree with some of the other sentiments put forward here, yes Doc you have a point. but....what I'm saying is a) bullying can also be of a non physical nature. b) the individual/s who are doing this may have affected other members. there are times I'm sure when we have all came to this place for a bit of light relief from the streeses of the day and as was pointed out in Ziggie's picture a bit of fun and humour. I for one do not come here to be abused and perhaps if someone is in a low enough state due to circumstances beyond their control the abuse may do more than just 'hurt their widdle fewings' as it was most tactfully put! c'mon folks we've all been there , the last straw senario. If you are fed up and you get an IM/E-mail you perhaps think great , someone I can help, or or just wants a chat it makes us feel good? then you find it's a cruel troll how's that going to make you feel not the slightest bit angry depressed I suppose? Yes I too would like to see what these 'people' wrote and perhaps the admin team would be a good idea but in the heat of the moment you say something 'like hey I've had enough and i'm walking' well there's the rub some people can't go back without being asked It's a little thing called Pride/Face. As regards reading e-mail/filters sometimes you have to look at the text to see what they are about and in so doing...well a wise woman once told me "A truth once told can never be untold" this applies to un-truths as well! well this is just my opinion still have a good night everyone it's 1:45 here and I'm giong to bed Dave

This is a global community and in all the world, there is a predictable percentage of bastards. They are always there, and will always be there. For every bastard that is whacked, another will take his, hers, or its place. There are a number of Renderartistes who have who have taken extreme offense at the inevitable few bastards that have abused his product and his site. You can run, you can hide, but the bastards will always be there. Get used to it. Prepare for it. But don't take it out on the rest of us.

You are all assuming ziggie is a well-adjusted adult. I'm sorry, but that was the most meloncholy image I've ever seen, I am almost in tears. Not because ziggie left, but because of the solitude he may be feeling, it sure looks like a cry for help to me. Perhaps he's a teen struggling to find his way into a place where he feels he fits....... and something happened that was just the last straw. Renderosity comsists of all age groups, and all walks of life, and maybe, just maybe, that made for television movie about the budding young artist striving for acceptance was ziggie. Yeah call me a sap.....whatever. But I think that a little compassion is in order, and that we all could treat each other a little kinder. After all, it is "the season" for quite a few of us.... not that that should be an excuse, it should be the season for compassion all year round. End of rant from one who's been there, and was lucky enough to have met up with a few very special individuals. Personally I don't believe that he's sitting back reading, waiting for the right moment to pop back in...... and for one am very concerned. signed, A Sentimental Sap (who's not apologizing for being one)

From milamber42s keyboard: "IMO, although there are some exceptions, this is the way most of the people in the USA are." in reference to this: "...hard ass people who didnt give a flying F**k about anything but themselfs." coming to america can be very rattling, even for folks like me...i did not like it, here, either. and, after a good long lifetime, here, there are still many things i do not like. here, small people, have grown up believing it is cool to revel in cruelty for no reason, except to make themselves feel important. and, they use it to hurt. other places face more "real" problems, like hunger, poverty, and, war. after all these years...and, i am not gonna say how old i am...i am still taken aback at how small an insult some americans take as an excuse to do dirt to another....and, i am from an hispanic early background, where drama abounds.

After reading Ziggie's good-bye, I don't think we know the whole story well enough to decide Ziggie isn't deserving of compassion...clearly more was going on than exists in this little place and I think the mean spiritedness displayed by someone here just added to other problems being struggled with. Sometimes it is just one more mean word, one more unkind act, one last cruelty that breaks a spirit. I was agreeing with you up until your last statement, Legume. I don't think showing compassion is ever a waste of time...there's not a finite quantity of it that you have to measure out by droplets and save for special occasions. I'm just glad there were so many people who decided to show their compassion. It's sad when showing empathy for another human being becomes a subject for derision. But it isn't the only sad thing here. Tolerance is in short supply too. As is respect. As is trying to understand another person's viewpoint. As is humility. Oh well. What am I talking about. This is the Wild West. We don't need no stinkin' compassion here.

legume, I've come to believe that many creative people are lacking the extra layer of emotional armor that nearly everybody else seems to have been born with. If Ziggy could create an image that made ME tear up, he just may be one of those folks. You haven't walked in his shoes. And I also believe that his anguish is both genuine and deeply felt...Let's go easy on him when he's down. It costs us nothing and it might just ease his grief a bit. I've been where I think he is and my buddies literally saved my life several times over. And with age, I've toughened up, too. With the help of my friends :)

I'm siding with Legume on this issue. I'm on a writing mailing list (and you think there are emotionally sensitive artists here, you ain't seen anything) and the exact same bloody thing that he described takes place so often that it's become an annoying joke to people who've been on that list for years. "I'm leaving because people are mean/ignoring me/I am suffering an enormous person crisis and I feel it is my duty to share it with all of you (even those who don't care) because my personal issues are so important that it surely must be of interest to every single one of you." They aren't and it isn't. The person might think it is, but I suspect it's better for the person in the long run to realize that they are not, in fact, the center of the known universe. If that sounds harsh, well, welcome to life and reality.

I don't know what happened with ziggie. Nor do I know what IMs he received that upset him enough to leave. I've become upset with various points of view that I don't agree with here from time to time. I've felt like exiting R'City from time to time as well. Despite my disagreements and words in threads, I've never gotten to the point of "hounding" someone in private communication over a disagreement in a thread. (Once, though, I over-reacted in a private communique when someone "attacked" an idea I shared. She knows who she is. She might also understand I don't know how to apologize. But I don't think I'm a bully.) Some people hate Legume. For many reasons, I suspect. I've followed his controversy(s) just about the whole time I've been a member. Just when I think I understand him, I realize I don't. I probably know about 3% of what he is. One thing I am fairly sure of is this: When he decides to jump into a serious discussion (or create one...grin), he removes all the sugar-coating and delivers. Some would say he is harsh. I suspect he is...probably due to the life he has lived. It's easy to see when he is joking and when he is serious. When he is serious, people should listen. When he is joking, people should loosen up a bit. He's about 90% right, IMHO, with his comments here. In fact, he has "swayed" some people's opinions here. It's certainly rare for people to endure physical harm by a person who one has made an enemy of here. The harm is all mental. So, comparing bullying IRL with bullying via email (etc.) IS like apples and oranges. Legume gave the best advice. Win by using the rules at your hands. Or do as I try to teach our young children...ignore name-calling...it's the best way to get the name-callers pissed off. The other 10%? Yeah, like dialyn said. Compassion is cheap. It's easy to send a digital dose to someone who needs it. So, IMHO, the recipe for helping ziggie is just what I said above...about 90% Legume and 10% compassion. One more item. Though the rules here prohibit harrassment, there is a bigger rule. Do a search on Internet Harrasment law. You will find it's a federal crime to continue harrassment of an individual when that individual has communicated to the harrasser a notice to stop. You will also find there are places to report this harrasment to state and local agencies. This, if memory serves correctly, means possible imprisonment. Not just being kicked out of R'City. So, ziggie, people care that you are upset and want to leave. But you have "weapons" at your disposal.

When did this community become so heartless? Has it always be thus? This argument isn't about anyone's emotions anymore. This is about being right. Well, fine, you're right. The world is a cold, cruel harsh place that's full of bastards. Because the world reflects what you hold within. We'll put "Sa was right" on your tombstones. Personally, though, I'd rather have "She was wrong, but she was kind" on mine.

Sa?

Attached Link: http://www.shininghalf.com/desprit/sa/index.html

Despair is despair. It IS being at the center of the known Universe. Not to understand that often means that you're at the center of your own little Universe and too damned afraid to reach out. Those are the barriers that separate us, the limits that others before us have set to our own humanity. Why perpetuate them? Why perpetuate the hatreds and the tribal fears of ancestors that couldn't understand 1% of what we understand today? Why insist on being the apologists for ignorance and intolerance? What would it cost us to give a damn?

Q, I usually understand easily what you write in threads, but I'm a bit lost...sorry. NOT to assume I am the center of the universe...or more immediately applicable, this thread...I think the combination of remarks made above is the best advice for anyone in the situation ziggie has found himself in. A message like... "I feel your pain (OK, so quoting Clinton isn't the best idea) and I'm sorry this shit is happening to you but you need to take a look around you and put this problem on a scale with all the other negative shit in your life and see just where it measures out at. IF this is the worst thing happening to you in your life, then you are very lucky! Now, here is what you can do about it...." ...would seem just fine to me. (I gave the short and blunt version for time's sake).

Chuck: Those laws exist because physical harm, stalkings, rapes and even murders were commited as a result of internet bullying. Some times the harasser shows up on your doorstep or lurks behind a tree. Then what happens to that logic? Cross-post there, sorry. Mostly referencing Keith's post. Cheers.

OK, Q, gotcha now. But as I said, it's pretty darn rare for physical meetings/contact to occur. I would think it's in the possibility realm similar to dying in a plane crash. In other words, I don't worry much about either. Child stalking and such is probably one of the higher possibilites. And again, I don't know what kind of IMs ziggie got. But I don't get the feeling he feels his life is in danger. More likely just hurt, a bit pissed, confused, and has decided the crap isn't worth putting up with. If so, I think the message I quickly keyed above is sound advice. As I said, I have at times felt like leaving. After a bit, though, I tell myself I need to get a grip and not let assholes make me leave a place where I mostly find satisfaction and help.

Got a few IMs and emails myself. Felt the same way. But I've been through a lot in life and I knew how to deal with the bastards. Others are just starting out. Whatever that means. I hope my posts are not misunderstood. I just want to change the world and mold it into my own image. Nothing wrong with that is there.:)

Haven't you ever been pushed to your limit, where you hold on for dear life and you're hurting so badly that a mean look can be the last straw? If you haven't, those of you who are being so judgemental, you should reflect on your good fortune. You were born with or acquired a tough enough skin to handle your problems by confrontation. Not everyone has your resiliency. Some people will never achieve it, and some will be sufficiently hardened by life that they will acquire it in time. But what is relevant here is that we don't know the backstory....You may be 'right' by your lights, but I'd rather be kind than right :)

All right guys. One for time for the freakin record. IF YOU ARE GETTING ABUSIVE EMAILS HERE TELL A MODERATOR What do you think we are here for anyways? Our job is to help you all have a fun and useful experiance at the site, to protect your rights as members and as artists. If someone is harrasing you and will not stop, tell someone and we will make it stop. If you do NOT tell us, we will never know. We the moderating team is gung-ho about booting people who misbehave. Everyone has right to their opinions, as long as they are stated in a tasteful and respectful manner. The moment somone starts insulting people, or otherwise disrupting the site, is when we (the moderators) start to IM them asking them to behave. We give people every chance to change their behavior. Every person who has been banned (not for warez) has had several chances. And no member is ever banned without at least 3 or 4 opinions and a long debate in the backroom. I am in every day for at least an hour - right after coffee but before work, and usually for several hours later that night. Renderosity is set as my homepage. Pathetic, I know :) Every IM that is sent to me gets replied to. Eventually. If there is a delay, rest assured that it is because I'm conferring with the other PTB. And unlike many members here, we do not feel it is neccasary to broadcast a person's humiliation publicly. That sort of thing is between us and them. If they choose to tell the world, that's their issue. Lyrra the Extremely Cranky

If the rules were properly enforced, people like Ziggy wouldn't be pushed to the point that they're ready to leave. And some of the people involved in this thread wouldn't be hear to talk about it.

The moderators are like the police...they can't enforce rules when they don't know they were broken. If Ziggy was being harrassed and didn't let the moderators know, then what could be done needed to be done on Ziggy's side. I don't remember anything being posted on a thread (I could well be mistaken...I don't read everything) so if it was "behind the scenes," then it was Ziggy's choice whether to do anything or not. Unfortunately a lot of us grew up with the notion that complaining about a bully was being a snitch or a squealer or a whiner. "Toughen up, kid, it's good for you, gets your ready for life" was the rule in a lot of schools and homes. Still is. Not a good rule. Just a rule. But not everyone was born with a thick skin. This notion of attacking the victim is one that doesn't hold well with me. It's a defense lawyer's trick... a particularly nasty way of defending monsters: validate perpetrator because somehow because the victim isn't deserving of justice, somehow the victim caused the crime. Nonsense. Ziggy didn't cause the problem. The piece of lint that decided to harrass Ziggy is the problem. There are things Ziggy could have done. There are things I might have done differently than Ziggy. But no one but Ziggy is Ziggy, and we don't know what was best done in this particular case. And I don't think compassion needs to be held back for a chosen few. It's a sad world we live in, but we all have the ability to make someone's day a little better. Ziggy did that with lively and fun graphics. To lose those is a loss to this community. Why don't I have the right to feel sad at not having those to look forward to? Nope, I'm not convinced compassion is a waste of time. And if you don't like it, too bad, too sad...no one can tell me what to feel anymore than I can persuade anyone to have feelings.

We can't act about something we don't know about. It's that simple. I'm here a lot. Far too much, probably. If someone contacts me about a problem thread, if it's in a forum I can't affect, I'll go to that forum's moderator or an admin. If it's threatening IMs and/or e-mails, I can do something if I'm given proof. All I know right now is that someone upset ziggie. That's not enough for me or anyone else to act on. ziggie has to come to one of us and let us know what is going on so we can do something about it. For anyone who says, "Well, it's just not worth the bother" and leaves, you're letting the troll win. You're encouraging them to attack other people. If you won't stand up for yourself, then do it for the others who will also get harrassed until someone finally stands up and does something about it.

Well put Crescent. Goes double for dialyn.

By the way, if anyone out there is asking themselves if it is worth contacting the moderators, my personal experience is that it is. I can't say I've ever been harrassed by IM or email (don't get any ideas), but there have been things that have come up that I have brought to the attention to the moderators, and they have been responsive to dealing with it when it was appropriate for them to do so. I've contacted at least five of the moderators at different times so it isn't just one person I happened to have luck with. I tend not to expect immediate results ... it takes time for a situation to be researched and I am sure the moderators have other things to do than attend to special little me ... but I always see some results. I do think that it is worth the effort to contact the moderators if you are having problems dealing with another individual. Some of us dig our own holes (and I've dug plenty in my time) but there's no reason to put up being pushed into one. The moderators are often there to lend a helping hand out if you just extend your hand to them.