just noticed that the picture by Tisa that was in the Hot 20 has vanished and does not appear to be in her gallery. Anyone know what happened to it?

We removed the gallery. When a member is banned from Renderosity (Bebop) all their clones are banned as well. We also remove the members gallery.

She must've done something pretty bad to be banned.

and done something and done something and done something... been banned quite a few times and doesn't know when to go away.

what made you so sure she was bebop? for the newbies, who don't know the story...bebop and blackhearted had a nasty disagreement over a set of lights that blackhearted claimed bebop had swiped. before that, bebop was a very productive, giving member of this community. very, very cool freestuff textures for vicki. well, a fight ensued in the c&d forum...now defunct, even the archives taken away...so none of you newbies can check out some of our "history". blackhearted won. bebop was banned. but, bebop kept coming back as clones....and, was banned again, and, again. some say that blackhearted won due to his sales in the marketplace...least, his name is not held in much esteem over at poserpros. me, i don't know. there was much strangeness at this site, during those days...and, it was time for my vacation, so, i split for six weeks, and went to the keys.

I wasn't aware of the mess. But I am aware of PoserPros shredding BH to shreds whenever they get the chance. It's not very fair. Granted I do not know the history of it all but I DO know Blackhearted and no matter what people think of him, he is a great person. I dont think he runs around falsely accusing people of stealing his stuff, its not his style. I'd like to think the reason he won is because he was right, not because he makes such good sales. He realy is a good person, and I have lost count of the threads here and on PoserPros ripping him a new one. Seems a little petty to me. As for Tisa being BeBop...not sure how they made that connection, but if it's true...holy detective work Batman. lol Im curious how they knew that myself Poppi. :) Just my 2 cents, Gina

I'd like to think the reason he won is because he was right, not because he makes such good sales. yeah, so would i. bebop was kind to me from day one. blackhearted just got SO angry with me back in c&d for trying to put my point across that bebop may have had a point. cimerone....enjoy this site. upload your renders and your market stuff. read the tutes and the forums...but, my adivice to you: never take it at face value, or as completely honorable. and, don't ponder what is unfair. that's the way...imo...to succeed, here.

The admins here have access to anyones IP address as soon as they login here, regardless of what nickname they are using. By using that number it's a fairly simple matter to determine if someone is 'cloning' themselves by comparing it to earlier logins.

Well, I can make no judgement. Even if I had read everything that was posted I don't think I'd want to be in the position to render (sorry for the pun) a judgement. AND, no one asked me to...LOL. As to BH? Bought a few products from him. Very happy. Asked for help twice, I think, and got answers quickly. I've seen him angry and I've seen him joking. And in other threads, I've seen him make good points. So, history aside, I'll take him for what interaction I've had with him and leave the rest of it on an erased slate. I didn't really "know" bebop.

what a biased little history, poppi. bebop was banned for numerous personal attacks on myself and others here at rosity, including the admins. he wasnt banned for warezing my light set, hosting it on his homestead page illegally, and even posting links to it here in the poser forum. proluminaire... whatever. that was just icing on the cake. he was banned long before that, and that issue was dealt with by myself and not renderosity. now i dont ordinarily join these threads, even when i myself am being flamed or under attack. i firmly believe that in most cases, people attacking others in these forums do far more damage to themselves and their own reputations in the process. and honestly, i could care less how little you think of me poppi. but when you distort past events in such a self-serving way, it compels me to respond. 'bebop and blackhearted had a nasty disagreement over a set of lights that blackhearted claimed bebop had swiped' this wasnt a 'claim', and you damned well know that. it was proven both by myself, an admin and countless members of the community that it was a direct ripoff. all he did is change the filenames. 'before that, bebop was a very productive, giving member of this community' bullshit. before that he was a merchant, just like the merchants that hes now attacking with his 'keep it free' propaganda. ironic that he was one of us 'evil, moneygrubbing merchants' until he was banned, when he could no longer sell his products in the marketplace he put them up in freestuff as a last-ditch effort to gain sympathy. poppi - ive done nothing to you to deserve the attacks that youve been directing against me ever since the bebop banning. i realise you and peter are friends - thats wonderful, im really happy for you both. but when you post something in these forums, post FACT and not your edited version of the events. hugs -gabriel

btw - thank you chuck thats all i ask - that everyone 'judge' me for themselves based on whatever interactions i may have with them, my work, and my devotion to the community - and not based on someones highly transparent campaign to cast a shadow over my name. cheers, -gabriel

I know Gabe too. He isn't the sinister character Poppi painted him. Sorry Poppi, that little rant was unnecessary, its character bashing in the worst way without EVIDENCE. There is ample EVIDENCE in these VERY forums that Tisa/Bebop is only function is to stir shit up. Just go back and read the threads, check Gabe's gallery for the trolling remarks by Tisa. Gabe is a nice guy. My 2 cents.

"some say that blackhearted won due to his sales in the marketplace" just reading over your lovely posts again. strange, since when bebop was banned for the first time, i was just a fledgling merchant, with fewer than two dozen sales under my belt. he was banned around the 20th of december, and he was a well-established merchant with many popular products in the marketplace. so there goes your theory about popularity coming into the equation at all - since he was far more known than myself at the time. the only reason people knew me is because i released my free angelyna character earlier, and it was a popular download. if the admins had to make a decision based on revenues alone, id have been banned on the spot, since i was a newbie merchant with only 1 product in my store. but he was banned for his actions... and repeat offences... and any rosity admin will tell you that. he violated the TOS and the law in his personal attacks more times than anyone can keep track of. again, post facts please and not your distorted and self-serving interpretations of them. hugs -gabriel

""but I DO know Blackhearted and no matter what people think of him, he is a great person. I dont think he runs around falsely accusing people of stealing his stuff, its not his style"" i agree cimerone, gabe is one of my best friends on this site and let me tell you when i need him he is there no matter what. any help poser wise, he has never been anything but kind and curtious to me and i have known gabe for almost a year now and had tons of chats with him on icq .. i hate seeing any person ripped on i certainly dont troll anyone i have no reason to im no expert at art by a longshot but i have seen gabes stuff get ripped on mainly by one person bebop .. well WHY? as for me i would stick up for any of the people who have been kind to me that is the way i am ..

My opinion of Gabe... is as follows : I started posting last December here @ Rosity, I had 2 main people help Me figure Poser out, Wizzard, who I guess has fallen by the wayside, & Gabe. Gabe never has turned his back on Me, & has always been there, for Poser questions, & personal advise... even @ 5am, when he hasn't slept for 2 days. Gabe mentioned on ICQ 1 time, My renders were getting way better.... except for My lighting. I told him that the lighting still miffed Me... he said... accept this file. He sent Me his light set... I didn't ask, & he didn't have to. But he did... so, as far as Gabe's character.... I cannot find ANY faults it... yes he is out-spoken... but very tactful... & very accurate. I've NEVER seen Gabe act any less than professional. Thomas

FWIW, I was the one who took both lighting sets apart. Since my Poser refused to open either of them, I had to resort to opening them as word documents so I could compare creation/modification dates and the specific mathematics. BH's preceded Bebop's, and the only difference between the two was a consistent factor in the numerics defining the lights themselves. Bebop may have been a very giving person with some wonderful freebies and products (and yes, I have a number of them myself), but he also has some rather serious issues to work out. I don't know that he is or is not Tisa, but there was certainly little doubt about the "zoeloves" and "virchual" nicks, among others. If he was Tisa, then it would certainly reflect a change in his approach.

Sheesh, Bebop cloning for one is not a kewl thing to do. And yes I remember quite a few times Bebop, under other nicks, did many things to undermine a community that took pride in helping each other and helping each other to grow. I may not post alot in the forums, but I do occassionally read them. As far as the theft of Blackhearted's lights. I remember that istance very well. I have seen that they were damn close to, if not exactly the same as Blackhearted's Proluma lights. I didn't test them officially or anything but I did see both and seen that you got the same illuminations, angles, etc.. for each. Not to mention there have been a few others that either copied or stole BH's works. Ki for instance, while not by bebop, was technically stolen from him. Gabe, as I have seen, has taken loads upon loads of harrassment, cut downs, etc.. and yet he still bites his tounge and rolls as best he can with the punches. Which no member should have to put up with. So, think of all the stuff Gabe has gone through to provide you with superb and close to flawless, as he can get right now, products. As for the Tisa/Bebop banning, for one: This is a community site, while the internet is not fully safe towards the youth of today. Some children do like to see art and try to get into it. Jeweldragon's, and soon to be my, son happened to see some of bebop/tisa's work. While art is in the view of the artist, there is an adult oriented 3D community that is more oriented for those works. We didn't appreciate having Lance ask us about vibrators, transsexuals, etc.. at only 11 years old when Jeweldragon was surfing the galleries and Lance happened to be standing behind her. I know the terms, adult supervision and all. Yet, I also know that nudity can be artistic and tastefully done. Which I have no problems with Lance seeing that. The human body is a vessel of art and mystery. The sooner Lance understands that the better, and less chance of sexual misconduct with teen's when he comes of age. I mean nudity is nudity.. but obscenity is just that obscene. I may be getting a little verbose in this and repeating myself, but in truth thats what I am seeing here now. Bebop keeps coming back, stirring up the same things, and then it's always banned and some ppl going poor bebop, even after seeing her banned for the same stuff again. As for any knock downs against Gabe. I would like to say this. Gabe, you are an excellent artist and friend. You have been one I could BS with, ask for help with this and that, trust in the quality of your work. With me and Jeweldragon, you have some fans of your work and friendship. Even from before Jeweldragon and I got close and fell in love, I was an admirer of your work. Dan

thanks everyone, i really appreciate the support. and i dont need to add any more fuel to the bebop threads... if left to his own devices, bebop does a pretty damned good job of digging his own grave each and every time - under every one of his clone accounts.

it's late here. and i'm reading this thread for the first time. first of all, i support blackhearted. he's a good merchant, a fine artist, and in my dealings with him, a decent person. i recall the controversy over the lights. as a new member and poser user, it was fascinating to see how the virtual community gathered and transparently "litigated" the issue. a third party brought forward detailed and conclusive evidence of theft. and the member was banned. the experience, while traumatic, was an amazing example of the resiliency of virtual communities of practice or interest.... (but i digress.) not knowing bebop, i've observed the postings by tisa - knowing the member only as a new contributor to renderosity - with some interest. some of tisa's images weren't so obscene. most, when done in poser, were either imaginative or purposely uninspired. which leads to two observations: 1) the publication of photo-manipulated images of women intentionally in the poser gallery with no attempt to clarify the false impression that they were created using poser - a fraud; 2) and this would include the nickname "tisa" or "teaser," the fairly obvious objective of tricking members into providing now-seemingly "uninformed" praise for the images - either for future ridicule or in order to goad those that had an inkling into posting negative comments or rants. this has been quite an experience. i'm not a professional artist - only a hobbyist. but it's been something. cheers!

I'm going to stay on the fence for this one :) both Bebop & Blackhearted have been nothing but nice to me from day one. I like them both so it really pains me to read about either one being banned. As we've all seen banning someone who's a troublemaker doesn't work, they either come back with a different name or go somewhere else & rant about it there dragging the whole community through the mud. PoserPros has to me the right idea about troublemakers, don't ban them just let the more experienced posters play with them till they get bored with it & go away of their own accord.

• The admins here have access to anyones IP address as soon as they login here, regardless of what nickname they are using. By using that number it's a fairly simple matter to determine if someone is 'cloning' themselves by comparing it to earlier logins.*

Cooler, I think it's not that easy. What about dynamic IPs? Each time I go online I get a new IP - how will you make sure that the person you're assuming to be a clone is really a clone and not someone who happens to have the same ISP and got the same IP as some other person before?

I'm really surprised if Tisa was bebop, because the styles were fairly different. But if the staff here know from IP logs, I'll believe them. Incidentally, ever since I've been around (which is two years) bebop's stuff has been free, over at 3dmodelworld. Some of my earliest downloads, as I recall.

im sure that the rosity staff, as well as members who have purchased them, can confirm that the majority of items (mainly lingerie) that he is now giving away for 'free' were in his renderosity store until the moment of his banning.

Puntomaus The 'Dynamic' part of dynamic addressing affects only the last 2 sets of numbers of an IP address. As long as you are connecting from the same location the first 2 sets are constant & can be used to trace the ISP & location of a user (this is consistent whether you use dialup, cable, or DSL). Just as an example here is a series of IP addresses based on my location (note that despite the fact that I logged off & on several times the DNS resolve is identical in all cases) *** Looking up 12.84.200.100 *** Resolved 12.84.200.100 to 100.westallis-05rh15rt.wi.dial-access.att.net + *** Looking up 12.84.202.67 *** Resolved 12.84.202.67 to 67.westallis-06rh15rt.wi.dial-access.att.net + *** Looking up 12.84.205.79 *** Resolved 12.84.205.79 to 79.westallis-07rh16rt.wi.dial-access.att.net + *** Looking up 12.84.200.109 *** Resolved 12.84.200.109 to 109.westallis-05rh15rt.wi.dial-access.att.net + *** Looking up 12.84.200.230 *** Resolved 12.84.200.230 to 230.westallis-05rh15rt.wi.dial-access.att.net + *** Looking up 12.84.200.49 *** Resolved 12.84.200.49 to 49.westallis-05rh15rt.wi.dial-access.att.net

But another issue comes at hand if you are posting from for instance a school. I was banned from a chat site once. Didn't have a clue to why, untill it turned up that it was another one at my location that had been banned, affecting all that hailed from that IP. So that could also in some cases at least, be the cause. Another thing is that I seriously doubt Tisa and Bebop to be the same person. They're both stirring up trouble but in each their way.

if you doubt it (might be too late now) but compare bebops images on his site to the ones in tisas gallery (or former gallery) - especially 'fuck the pain away' or whatever it was called. then note that 'her' characters just happened to be named the same as bebops textures or lingerie packs - chloe, kirsty, zoe, etc. he even used his own textures on that image. look at the hair in the image. the only person i know that does hair like that, consistently, is bebop. that wierd androgynous stringy bob cut thing. you can recognise his art style, his posting style, his style of inciteful little comments, etc. hell, he even posts that same image of his and has his friends, and probably a large number of his clone accounts, vote it into the hot20 over and over again - the one with dozens of little naked kids gathered around some sortof fairy thing. hes getting smarter, so this time he wasnt posting links to his homepage, etc.. so its not that obvious. but there are dozens of strange little 'coincidences' that, when put together, show that it couldnt be anyone BUT bebop. ive known for quite awhile that it was him, and knew eventually hed do something to get himself banned as usual. it doesnt take long.. not like hes ever going to change his behavior. if anything, it gets worse and worse. its quite hard to pull off having an alias here, and going about posting to the galleries, posting in the forums, etc without some people picking up on the fact that its you - especially if you continue the exact same old arguments and attack the exact same group of people that you did with your old alias, lol. while you may think that out of so many people it would be impossible to spot - personal style is actually pretty easy to spot, eventually. especially the style of someone like bebop. anyways, thats all I need to be completely convinced that its another one of bebops incarnations. the admins, however, are a completely different story. they cant go banning people based on circumstantial evidence, no matter how strongly it points to him. they must have had hard evidence in order to ban him again - evidence such as an IP, the same internet service provider, email, etc. listen to cooler, he knows his stuff :) you dont need the exact same IP address... the same provider, or doing a tracert to the same city is proof enough that its him - and they do know where he lives, since as much as he likes to deny it, he was a merchant here not long ago. cheers, -gabriel

What you are talking about ernyoka1, is a global IP ban, where all addresses within a specific octet are affected. There are numerous ways to ban someone, or a series of someones. Using my IP number as an example... +b 12.* would keep everyone from AT&T out +b 12.84.* would keep everyone out on my specific AT&T network +b 12.84.200 would keep everyone out on my specific AT&T network dialing in to the same modem +b 12.84.200.100 would keep just me out Renderosity, (& I would imagine all the online forums), use an IP specific ban (the last example above) which only keeps the single offending IP number out. This makes it well nigh impossible for someone to be locked out accidentially. btw I'm basing all of this on my knowledge of how things work on irc (I use to be an oper on Efnet :-). I've never been a mod or admin on any of the forums but I'd imagine the mechanics are very similar. If I'm in error anywhere along the line hopefully one of the mods or admins here will correct me.

OK, it sounds like you know what you're talking about, cooler :o) I only knew what happened to me, and that's some years ago. And it might very well have been an op that didn't knew much about how to do those things. Most likely, actually G And Blackhearted, I have only seen the one "fuck the pain away" image by tisa, as it was the only one posted in a public forum, and I had very little urge to seek this person's gallery. If you say that the work looks like Bebop's, I believe you. Never seen any of Bebop's images either, and I was always too late to get his stuff before it was removed due to a new ban sigh It looked great though. Another thing is then: If bebop/tisa is banned, wouldn't that mean an IP ban? And how can the peep come back in then? I'm not into all this IP stuff, I know that I have one, and that's about it G (I also know that I'm right now at this one ;o) 212.97.216.212)

Poppi wrote: ...enjoy this site. upload your renders and your market stuff. read the tutes and the forums...but, my adivice to you: never take it at face value, or as completely honorable. and, don't ponder what is unfair. that's the way...imo...to succeed, here. True enough Poppi, as far as it goes. But it needs to be applied to all sites in order to be worthwhile advice.

ernyoka1, the reason that a person can get right back in is because of dynamic addressing. As I pointed out above, everytime you login there are subtle differences in the last two sets of numbers in your IP address. This is enough to circumvent the ban. And yes you're correct the global ban you were caught in was probably established by an unexperienced/sloppy chanop :-) btw, unless you know what you are doing, posting your actual IP number really isn't a good idea. It identifies your computer during this session the same way your street address tells someone what house you live in.

Personally I'm glad to know that the admins are on top of things. I posted a comment on a beautiful image that blackhearted did with his recent release of Elowen. It was awful what the then "Tisa" was saying. I felt it affected any artist doing work with new characters. Artists are sensitive beings and don't need to be flamed when releasing new work and told they can't post their art in the gallery. Repression sucks the life force out of art and artists. Without knowing any of the past history I'm glad the admins stood up for freedom of expression in the art gallery. Elowen is a beauty as are lots of other wonderful items released every week. Who better to showcase them then the artist that creates them.

Now see, this is the sort of thread that makes me spend less and less time over here. What you see here is jealousy of Gabe being vented in the form of a lopsided recollection of past events. As for Gabe being ripped over at PPros or as the admins love to call it Pee Pee's which still makes me laugh out loud, I've never noticed it. In fact, the entire compexion of that site when it comes to flaming people is so totally different. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone. There just seems to be less loose lipped attacks over there. Anyways, I haven't seen any textures here better than Gabs and they are certainly the finnest ones that I own. Unfortunately when you're at the top of your game you're always going to have people trying to byte your work or discredit you in some way. Different arena, same old high school bull that so many people try. I just wish people would grow up and try to maintain the golden rule when posting in these forums. Regards, Brent

Facts. Now there's an interesting word. Seems like facts vary depending on who writes them. I've been around a while and what I remember from those C&D days was that:- 1/ Bebop posted a new image to the gallery and from what I remember this was a not particularly good image of an arse 2/ Blackhearted then started a thread in the C&D forum which criticised this image in a derogatory and unpleasant way 3/ Blackhearted then posted Bebops image without his permission in the C&D forum and continued his attacks 4/ This went on a long time without any intervention by mods or admins 5/ Bebop retaliated by posting a Blackhearted picture in the C&D forum and criticised this. 6/ The argument got completely out of control and I think both members were banned for 3 days by Ironbear 7/ when Bebop came back he removed his MP items and gallery. It was much later that Bebop was banned and had nothing to do with Light sets stolen by Blackhearted from Steffy Z and subsequently a different but similar set was produced by Bebop to bring attention to this. I have a lot of email exchanges that were sent to me by Bebop between him and Steffy Z that confirms a lot of this. I believe copies were also sent to Poppi and Snow Sultan.

Since posting to this thread it occurred to me that Tisa and bebop shared a certain grudge, which does make it likely they are the same person. Namely, an opinion that things like pose sets, facial expression sets, light sets and camera sets, that are largely a matter of a bit of dial-twiddling, are not market-worthy things that should change hands for money. It's a view I have some sympathy with. It's rather like going along to your local tennis club and offering to play in someone's place for $20. The whole point of tennis is to play the game yourself. And in Poser, if you can't be bothered to do ANY of the work yourself, what's the point? I have to repeat that either bebop has had a LOT of free textures (free, and not free in inverted commas) available over the whole of the last two years, or there were two people called bebop offering textures, or I and my PC are having a collective hallucination. Oh, and they aren't being offered any more, last time I heard.

I don't care if Tisa is Bebop or not or who ever. Bebops freestuff was really great and his faerie images too. Some call them naked kids, but to me it's fantasy art and I like it. -Cooler, I had a look at the last four IPs I got and I noticed that only the first set of numbers was always the same, the others were all different each time.

Puntomaus, That's unusual but not unheard of for 3 parts of an octet to change with dynamic addressing. With the inexorable expansion of the internet & subsequent overcrowding of a finite number of IP combinations I'm sure it will become more & more common, making my job just a little harder :-)

Really people, this is starting to sound like a schoolyard. He said, she said... blah blah blah. Over and done with, can we just move on already?

I connect here from work mostly. I happen to know that among all the machines on my floor, there are only two IP addresses. There are also two other people who work here who are members of r'osity. Although they don't post in the forums or galleries, I hope they don't do anything to get banned!

Bebop was banned for many more reasons than most members know. It had little to do with BH. Also, this thread started out as a Poser issue and that is why it is still here in the Poser forum. Hiram, I hear that.

MikeKnott, awww come on.. history always rewrites itself ;) Some people forget us oldtimers who remember what exactly happened way back when..

Blackhearted I realize that you believe that a lot of lies do a truth, yes?

Ok, this thread has go on far enough.