Seriously let it go now.

Quote - hey PrescisionXXX, you reminded me of something. The one thing that I really got annoyed about with V4 is her breasts. They were in the way of the rigging. Off course that was a problem with legacy zones but the problem still kind of remains even with WM. A chest is quite a solid thing, ribcage and all, and it hardly bends at all. Breasts however are these dangly lumps of fat that have hardly any structure, especially when the lady gets older. Why the bloody hell do they still have breasts on a base mesh? It might be a principle thing, but when a torso bends, the breasts have their own plan. So yeah don't worry, she won't have this standard rack like most 3D ladies do.

So that's the first thing about my mesh, she won't have boobs at all... until you dial them in. Will that be a problem for morphing breast movement. I haven't come across that problem yet. I just reverse the morph to remove the breast shape and the resultant morph is just the movement.

Maybe I'm weird but my principle is to follow nature as closely as I can. The breasts example might be minor with the WM tech available, but maybe in future we'll have a different bending system introduced that allows us to define rigid areas of the body. Any flabby zones on that area will be subject to it. You never know. I haven't even had the time to try bullet physics.

So anyway, yeah I have no problem with providing a neutered version. Seems very reasonable, plus you can provide age morphs without getting eople on your back with all kinds of moral objections. That is still a thing I do worry about since my name is EROgenesis. Maybe I should leave that alltogether.

Yeah Dawn. hm. I've grown scared of being critical of her around these parts. Them folks don't take kindly to me hehehe. But to be fair, she's not terrible, the bends way better than V4 when that purple undies toting bitch showed up... but she's indeed not worth the hype. I just cannot get over two things about her: her thigh pivot location and her freaky Joker smile. The first one baffles me and makes me wonder when the *** will hit the fan? Maybe nobody will notice. That last one inclines almost to an involuntary level me to have certain opinions of the modelling team at hivewire. HMMM!

Anyways, another thing I wanna ask you all:

extra bones??? abdomen? toes? neck? 

you make some good points there that I'd be interested in seeing the results of.  As far as defining rigid areas, with weightmapping a rigid area would simply be one in which there is little difference between the weight applied to each vertex within the area that you define as rigid.  

as for extra bones.. maybe I'm wrong according to much better schooled 3d people.. but I like 'em.  I find, especially with weightmapping, that the bends of each individual bone are more subtle and I find that results in maps that transfer with less crinkling and require less re-working when transfered to clothing.. I could be talking out of my ass though.. this is just my impression

as for the hip pivot location...  I dont know..it seems to work fine with normal bending ranges.  I cant play with it much right now due to tech issues, but I cant recall having any issue short of trying to bend her in ways a human body cant actually bend.  I dont know how much stock to put to this, but its be said to me not to be too concerned with a poser skeleton following an actual skeleton too closely as the figures ploygon flesh doesnt exactly move the way a persons flesh will, so what is important is the end result of how she moves shrug

My problem with alyson2 is her bending... lifting her knee towards her torso is horrific.  Both knees together is even worse as it does something terrible at her rear also.  She has the ploys to be really good, mesh detail aplenty, morphs aplenty out of the box.. but the rigging...  :( and the problems are a pain to get rid of in the clothing I make for her.. its just very unfortunate.   I've said it before and I'll stand by it, the native poser figures have tons of potential.. it just seems like they give up before they finish them

Quote - > Quote - Alyson, it's amazing how little has to be done to give her a decent face, and when I say Alyson, I mean 2.  Her body shape and proportions are pretty good, but still with plenty of morphs if desired. 

....
Doric.

Yeah. I was surprised. I'd kind of gone along with the "Alyson2 is ugly" idea without ever going beyond seeing the default just before I added GDNA2. Then there was a thread by TrekkieGrrrl I think, about the native Poser characters, so I thought I'd give her a try. I'd never really noticed the ethnic morphs she had before and mixing bits of those together gets some really nice results. I'm going to be using her a lot more now.

I like Miki4. I think she's got a bit of A3 about her. I do wish she had a better European morph though. She's a pretty Asian girl, but she could do more than that.

Mike did an amazing job on her.. thats for sure.  Its a shame he has seemed to drop out of the poser world.  Antonia really was a marvel, I almost never posed her with dials.  Just grab a limb in the viewport and start dragging it around... she would litterally dance for me.  Its too bad that she never seemed to catch on.

Quote - > Quote - Anyways, another thing I wanna ask you all:

extra bones??? abdomen? toes? neck? 

Before I forget it, my opinion the team at Hivewire is not high at all.

To answer the question though, if you don't have Antonia WM, get her and play with her for a while.  I'd say the torso is probably the way to go, she bends almost like flesh.  I know you have a different direction, not that it's bad, it isn't, but for my use, what gens Antonia has is plenty, I'm not really in to the male/female two headed couple that much.  But pay more attention to the face and expressions, Antonia is failry light there, could use a lot more weight in the expression areas.  As in more morphs.  But she's a damned good effort as she is.  It takes a little effort to learn how to work with her, but once that's past, and it's not very long, she'l beat any vicky all to hell.  But as a guide to joints, sht's very good there.

Doric. 

Quote - what I mean to say was:

... some of us feel like something is missing. That doesn't necessarily have to be the obvious. They say that Dawn was made either in defiance of DAZ, or to unite the DS and Poser communities. In any case they disagreed with DAZ and formed an idependent movement. That's a good thing, bu I'd love that too. I sometimes also want to have more control over the things I do with a figure. If we have our own figure, we don't have to answer to companies like DAZ or Hivewire3D. We can dick around and make what we want without getting into legal trouble. It is highly ambitious, I know, but I'd love that.

There are several really nice third party figures out there already, with that purpose in mind. Why not join in on and support those efforts, trather then making another new one?

Whatever happened to Phantom3D that was making a male and a female for this purpose? I lost track of what he was doing after school started for me last fall.

I definitly agree.. though i suppose if the base figure doesn't include your basic requirements, it doesn't make a lot of sense to dump a lot of your time or resources into it

Quote - > Quote - what I mean to say was:

... some of us feel like something is missing. That doesn't necessarily have to be the obvious. They say that Dawn was made either in defiance of DAZ, or to unite the DS and Poser communities. In any case they disagreed with DAZ and formed an idependent movement. That's a good thing, bu I'd love that too. I sometimes also want to have more control over the things I do with a figure. If we have our own figure, we don't have to answer to companies like DAZ or Hivewire3D. We can dick around and make what we want without getting into legal trouble. It is highly ambitious, I know, but I'd love that.

There are several really nice third party figures out there already, with that purpose in mind. Why not join in on and support those efforts, trather then making another new one?

Whatever happened to Phantom3D that was making a male and a female for this purpose? I lost track of what he was doing after school started for me last fall.

Quote - > Quote -  

Whatever happened to Phantom3D that was making a male and a female for this purpose? I lost track of what he was doing after school started for me last fall.

 

I'm not 100% sure.  he was having some health issues but I'm not sure if that is why he stepped back.  I know the poser community could be very frustrating to him and maybe he needed a break.  I sure miss him though he was a real pioneer.  Last thing I knew him to be working on was a weightmap version of James/Koji, which was looking really good.. I always wanted a james that could bend properly!

Quote - - Supported - this is the trickiest part! I am now discussing the possibility of making the mesh a V4 compatible mesh. We think that a script that copies the V4 joint centers from the customer's installed V4 from DAZ should make sure DAZ will not get too annoyed. Anything that defiates from existing merchandise will render the figure completely useless. This in itself will determine where the figure goes... but should not be a reason not to try and make it anyway.

• Textures and UV mapping: single mapped? V4 identical UVs? Easily convertible from V4? or completely unique. What is more important: opportunities for vendors, or user friendliness?

You are going to have copyright problems mimicking, following, copying or reverse engineering anyting V4 related. For example, the only way her skeleton can be copied (simplifying the EULA details here) is if you are making an add-on product for her (like clothing, or hair, shoes etc..)  Same with UV's. Especially in last couple of years since they split the market they have gotten extra vigilant about protecting their 'intelectual property'

DAZ also doesn't allow the shape of V4 to be copied by a third party (like for the purpose of having an auto fit clone to refit V4 clothing to another figure.)

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -  

Whatever happened to Phantom3D that was making a male and a female for this purpose? I lost track of what he was doing after school started for me last fall.

 

I'm not 100% sure.  he was having some health issues but I'm not sure if that is why he stepped back.  I know the poser community could be very frustrating to him and maybe he needed a break.  I sure miss him though he was a real pioneer.  Last thing I knew him to be working on was a weightmap version of James/Koji, which was looking really good.. I always wanted a james that could bend properly!

Yeah, his figures looked very promising.
What, Poser community frustrating... naaah, how can that possible be?!?!?  ROFL  
I understand, COMPLETELY.  SRSLY!

Quote - Some of you remind me of OCD types, thinking the forum should be empty and void and when a topic pops up and things get hairy...can't process, world is turned upside down...need to regulate...need to control....

Over and over again "It's a pg13 forum" this sort of talk.

Well, it is a PG13 forum, Rendo makes you sign a promise that you are over 12 or something to that effect when you join. I have this strange thing, I usually think that responsible adults will behave in ways appropriate for environment, when they want to discuss things that are getting of more and more sexual nature, knowing that  there may be minors around they would seek out a slightly more private place. I never thought of them as such, but perhaps my standards are a bit more demanding then the minimum acceptable for the forum.

Also, it would be nice to discuss modeling a figure without constant talk about itls genitals. Personally I prefer male genitals, female genitals are EWW like nauseating icky slimy gross snails. I donlt experience the low grade turn on that lot of guys do when talking about female bits, and at some point it gets to be too much Ick to sift through to discuss modelng a figure. When it comes time to discuss a male figure, I'll extend the same courtesy and not go on and on ad infinitum how beautiful his dick is (because I know a lot of guys find that gross).

The rest, when someone makes fairly grand claims, I tend to poke and test their mettle to see if there is any substance behind the claims.

Quote - I too wish Erogenesis good luck. She might succeed against all odds because she is aiming for a niche market that is unoccupied for the moment. As for the mainstream, the only contender to Dawn is V6. They have to fight it out. Rallying for recycling failed Poser figures from the past is totally useless. And remember that an attack on Dawn is the same as support to Daz.

No. You sound just like all those who say an attack on Obama over NSA surveillance is a vote for the Republicans.

V6 is nice, however. Best looking female figure I've ever seen. Too bad she doesn't work in Poser.

Quote - > Quote - Some of you remind me of OCD types, thinking the forum should be empty and void and when a topic pops up and things get hairy...can't process, world is turned upside down...need to regulate...need to control....

Over and over again "It's a pg13 forum" this sort of talk.

Well, it is a PG13 forum, Rendo makes you sign a promise that you are over 12 or something to that effect when you join. I have this strange thing, I usually think that responsible adults will behave in ways appropriate for environment, when they want to discuss things that are getting of more and more sexual nature, knowing that  there may be minors around they would seek out a slightly more private place. I never thought of them as such, but perhaps my standards are a bit more demanding then the minimum acceptable for the forum.

Also, it would be nice to discuss modeling a figure without constant talk about itls genitals. Personally I prefer male genitals, female genitals are EWW like nauseating icky slimy gross snails. I donlt experience the low grade turn on that lot of guys do when talking about female bits, and at some point it gets to be too much Ick to sift through to discuss modelng a figure. When it comes time to discuss a male figure, I'll extend the same courtesy and not go on and on ad infinitum how beautiful his dick is (because I know a lot of guys find that gross).

The rest, when someone makes fairly grand claims, I tend to poke and test their mettle to see if there is any substance behind the claims.

 

I don't get remotely turned on by pictures of or discussions about female genitals. Nor do I feel an aversion that makes me go "ewww." Maybe that automatic reaction has something to do with your negative responses to these threads?

I just find it damned weird that people have a problem with genitals at all. Exactly as weird, I expect, as you'd find people who have a problem with those who show their ankles.

Imagine a new female figure. Great -- except no ankles. You can use her for all kinds of shots. Just not the full body ones, or the ones with shoes. People who find ankles icky, or who are afraid to expose their children to ankles, just love her.

^How I feel about Dawn.

moriador,

"No. You sound just like all those who say an attack on Obama over NSA surveillance is a vote for the Republicans."

One of the things you realize when you grow up is that you have to pick your camp, and stay by it. Working alone without support doesn't work. Cheerie-picking opinions from here and there won't work. If Dawn falls, the whole Poserdome fall. The Poser figures have as much chance against V6 and M6 as a white mouse in a storm.

If Dawn falls, the whole Poserdome fall.

What a statement!

vilters, "What a statement!"

Remember, you read it here first!

Quote - My problem with alyson2 is her bending... lifting her knee towards her torso is horrific.  Both knees together is even worse as it does something terrible at her rear also.  She has the ploys to be really good, mesh detail aplenty, morphs aplenty out of the box.. but the rigging...  :( and the problems are a pain to get rid of in the clothing I make for her.. its just very unfortunate.   I've said it before and I'll stand by it, the native poser figures have tons of potential.. it just seems like they give up before they finish them

 

It sounds as though Project E is looking to deal with that kind of bending problem, which will be good as it's one of the worst problems I have with renders.

Imckenzie wrote:

"I don’t want to be a bug about this but honestly I think you would be better off keeping everything on a professional basis. Can you imagine DAZ or SM using terms like “down there?” Say genitals, vagina etc."

Hmm. Now that's an interesting point... and honestly wouldn't know an answer to it immediately. You see, yes, coming across professional does help people not have a certain image of you, which can be annoying, but being informal about it can have its advantages too.

I released Lali's Bits with a mixture of professional / informal. The promo images looked pretty neat and tight and the manual was very thorough, but the language in the manual was informal to even comical at times, I even used swear words. Most people seemed to enjoy that. I only know of one that complained.

I think for a product like Lali's Bits, for which the purpose was obvious, the informal language was fitting. I have a feeling that being professional about something as intimate as a vagina is kinda creepy, unlessyou're a gynie.

But for Project E, maybe it is better to be indeed a little bit more formal about it. Like someone else said in this thread, there's a lot more to Project E than just genitals, which is absolutely true. I was also trying to make that point earlier, that I actually just wanna have my own dolly with which I can determine what happens. Once its in the market, I'll be very flexible about who supplies what for it. I have this handicap, namely, money is not the most important thing for me. I am addicted to making people happy... sometimes to my own disadvantage and I need to be careful of that. So anyway, Project E will be a much more fun environment to develop for... if I ever get that far. 

But in this specific instance I was actually trying not to mention the word 'Genitalia' because someone said that all this focus on 'Genitals' on a PG13 site was wrong, or questionable or something. So I didn't wanna inspire that person into a continied discussion about that (also because emphasis on that point might make it even more interesting for the PG13s on this site.).

Thanks for your input on textures!

Stuff about Dawn and other figures

Antonia: yeah people keep telling me to check her out and I keep forgetting. But I did download her like 2 years ago when I was deciding on a figure. She was indeed very impressive compared to the raw V4, but back then it felt like it was the only one that downloaded her.

Back in 2010 I wanted to start making comics. Before that I had used and converted Poser's Sydney G2 and gotten quite far in making her look very good (I'll see if I can find some images). She had her own problems, like her mesh being unwelded (which is a pain in the butt for zBrush work), and having a very destinct smile that was hard to work with. I think I eventually chose V4 because she was like the mainstream thing or something, plus her mesh was easier to work with. I think I even still have renders of the very beginnings of my history with V4. It was when I bent V4 over that she looked like all the other models available. Terrible!!!

There was also Jessi and Alyson I could choose to work with. Now, ahum, yes I confess one thing (like what you guys mentioned already). I don't like working with ugly models. Yeah it sounds stupid but I really can't. When I'm busy spending a lot of time constructing expressions and other intimate things on her body, I get so put off by terrible modelling. Jessi's body was just straight out of a Marvel comic, and Alyson looked like one of my old school teachers about who whip my ass. V4 was comparatively the LEAST ugliest of them all, and the body was simple and generic. 

My motivation on this ugliness thing, obviously very subjective, is the amount of deconstruction one needs to do on the face. The more your standard morph deviates from the base face, the weirder the additional morphs will look. For example, with Sydney's face, there was something about her mouth that I just didn't like, and her smiles were even worse. So when I sorted out her face, it deviated so much form the base that the smile that made was oddly different. So to make it work I had to subtract the addon morph from a separate smile I made specifically for making the initial smile... VERY tedious. V4's base face is much closer to the characters I wanted.

The newer models from DAZ are tonnes TONNES better in looks, but have their own set of disadvantages, one being DSON and the other being the Subdivision dependency. DSON is a manifestation from hell and completely confuses Poser. Dawn is, yeah, not bad but she's ugly like Alyson, and her hip rigging is... I don't know it leaves me speechless. For now V4 is fine until I get Project E going.

*Quote -*My problem with alyson2 is her bending... lifting her knee towards her torso is horrific.  Both knees together is even worse as it does something terrible at her rear also.  She has the ploys to be really good, mesh detail aplenty, morphs aplenty out of the box.. but the rigging...  :( and the problems are a pain to get rid of in the clothing I make for her.. its just very unfortunate.   I've said it before and I'll stand by it, the native poser figures have tons of potential.. it just seems like they give up before they finish them

 

** Please try again after reading this;**
Alyson and Alyson2 have magnets all over the figure. Unfortunately there are 42 symmetrical errors in those magnets. => Left-right magnets are NOT the same, or have different zones, and so on, and some dependencies are also set different.
Before doing any deep work on Alyson or Alyson2, DELETE or correct ALL MAGNETS.

 

With all these left-right magnet problems, you can never get the left-right side to behave the same. Deleting all magnets, or correcting them all, is the only option.

Only now you can adjust the rigging to behave symmetrical, and get an even left-right result.

This is important for clothing builders as well.

Whatever you build in a figure or clothing; Magnets, JCM's, mesh, rigging, etc, it has to be left-right symmetrical.

Happy Posering
Tony

Quote - Before doing any deep work on Alyson or Alyson2, DELETE or correct ALL MAGNETS.

I did the VERY same with V4's deformers.. instant delete. Epic delete. It was such a delete event that there's still this little black hole in my hard drive somewhere.

They are so annoying!

meatSim:

"as for the hip pivot location...  I dont know..it seems to work fine with normal bending ranges. "

That's the thing, I'm not entirely sure IF it will be a problem. But it feels completely off.

Let me put it this way: after I downloaded Dawn, I tested her out like every one does by pulling around her limbs and dials. I went from top to bottom, starting with her head. All looked pretty decent until I moved the thigh. The camera was looking onto her right side as I rotated the left thigh upwards and had a good lateral view of the movement. I was surprised, there was something weird about the rotation. I immediately knew there was something wonky about the pivot and opened up the joint editor to see what was up.

The reason I could see it is probably because for the last YEAR I have been working intensively with the thighs. the reason they did it is probably because they wanted to reduce the shearing inbetween the thigh and the crotch. the closer the rotation point to the tangent, the less displacement. I guess it works, but its not exactly elegant. these things can be solved with WM and JCMs. So its a bit weird that they would opt for that... if that was their reason.

The only real problem I can forsee for now is with animations, you might be able to see what I saw that way much clearer.

BadKittehCo:

"There are several really nice third party figures out there already, with that purpose in mind. Why not join in on and support those efforts, trather then making another new one?"

I've already dumped two meshes in the process of developing this mesh. The reason is that editing re-editing an old mesh makes things confusing and  just end up with a Frankenstein. Plus, along the way I learn a lot about polygon flow and all that, and then I look at the shoulder and think, hmm, I might as well start over. That's one reason why I wouldn't wanna work on other people meshes. 

the other two reasons would be like what meatSim says, I have other requirements for the mesh, and the makers of the original mesh probably also have their ideas about what they want from the mesh. My ideas are pretty crazy, from what I've seen.

"you'll have copyright issues..."

Yep. I know their reputation. Understandable, but its their problem if they wanna be so anal about it. So what to so? I don't know, but I'll just steam ahead anyway. I'm kindof hoping that it can be solved with a script, that checks for the original V4. Then all the V4 centers will get copied. If you don't have V4, then you'll remain with project E's default joint centers, the difference being so minor that a visit to the fitting room will be brief. The UV's we'll have to see what I can get away with.

Whether i can pull that off, I don't know. 

"That's the thing, I'm not entirely sure IF it will be a problem. But it feels completely off."

Dawn's hip rigging is indeed not ideal.

But this can be improved using the animateable joint centers. Unhide the hidden parameters and adjust the z- and y-offset for the thigh joint.

Mirror to the other side, then memorise and re-save Dawn.

As long as animateable joint centers are enabled in the clothing they will adjust themselves to the new rigging.

Quote -
I just find it damned weird that people have a problem with genitals at all. Exactly as weird, I expect, as you'd find people who have a problem with those who show their ankles.

Imagine a new female figure. Great -- except no ankles. You can use her for all kinds of shots. Just not the full body ones, or the ones with shoes. People who find ankles icky, or who are afraid to expose their children to ankles, just love her.

^How I feel about Dawn.

Guess not everybody is as openminded as you are. But before you go gore someone else's sacred ox, think how you might feel if some gores yours.

Frankly, I think some people in this forum are a little too fixated on the genitals of some of these figures.

what units are you using Joe public?

(I also slightly reworked the weightmap)

"what units are you using Joe public?"

The display was set to "feet" when I made that screenshot.

Quote -
Frankly, I think some people in this forum are a little too fixated on the genitals of some of these figures.

Frankly, I think some people in this forum are a little too fixated on the degree of which other people are interested in Poser Genitalia. 

Frankly, I think some people exaggerate the interest expressed by others in order to build a straw-man case that anyone who brings it up is some sort of crazed pervert because of some bizarre, internal hang-up they might have.

Frankly, the more you disparage everyone for talking about it the longer the subject seems to go on.

Interesting, that...

I dont think the primary thing causing offence is the idea of adding genitals.. its that some people were so offended by the lack of genitals in dawn that they couldn't accept it as a design decision that was communicated well in advance of release.  They were so offended that they felt the need to demonize anyone who said it was fine or they didnt care as being a prude/puritain/closed minded etc etc.  They were so offended that they felt the need to troll her thread telling everyone over and over that they shouldnt take interest in the figure.  

I dont think its the non-genital(or who cares genital) crowd who got overly offended at all.  I think its the guys who felt the need to run three or four simultaneous threads about touting the glory of genitals.  The crowd who keeps harping on this idea of puritanism or religous extremism being the primary reason anyone would take interest in a non genital figure.  Just because any particular persons life or 3d figure doesn't revolve around their genitalia is absolutely no to paint them in any particular light.  I imagine, or at least derive from the tone and wording of the postings that people are thinking of me as one of the 'religous nutjobs who's afraid of her own cunt'  but the reality is that I have a very free, wide ranging and well practiced sexualtiy.  I close the door to the bathroom when I shit too.. that doesn't mean I'm ashamed of taking a shit it just means that I have respect for the sensibilities of those around me.

... and wow that turned into a bit of a rant.. sorry and not all(or probably even mostly) aimed at the quoted poster.

At any rate.. the ankle less figure..

would I be interested, no.  If I was interested in everything else and the ankles were a problem for me I'd do my best to communicate that during the figures development when it could be changed and once that point was past I'd bow out and not worry about it.  If it was possible and I was capable I'd make a fix for that shortcoming and share it with others who also liked everything but that part.  What I wouldn't do is get so offended as to look for anything that could be potentially wrong with the figure and spam it as much as possible to try to drown out any positive vibe, or make it seem like a 'problem' figure rather than a decent figure with some very good points as well as some fairly common shortcomings

Quote - > Quote - I just find it damned weird that people have a problem with genitals at all. Exactly as weird, I expect, as you'd find people who have a problem with those who show their ankles.

Imagine a new female figure. Great -- except no ankles. You can use her for all kinds of shots. Just not the full body ones, or the ones with shoes. People who find ankles icky, or who are afraid to expose their children to ankles, just love her.

^How I feel about Dawn.

Guess not everybody is as openminded as you are. But before you go gore someone else's sacred ox, think how you might feel if some gores yours.

Frankly, I think some people in this forum are a little too fixated on the genitals of some of these figures.

To be fair.. and this how fights break out.. the strawman thing is being used pretty liberally by people on both sides of this discussion.  As I just posted in the rant above this the tirades against prudism and puritainism are just as much strawman arguments as anyone suggesting desire for a complete figure are result of some manner of perversion.  Although as a perv myself I take offence to the term being seen as a negative or insult :P

Quote - > Quote - Frankly, I think some people in this forum are a little too fixated on the genitals of some of these figures.

Frankly, I think some people in this forum are a little too fixated on the degree of which other people are interested in Poser Genitalia. 

Frankly, I think some people exaggerate the interest expressed by others in order to build a straw-man case that anyone who brings it up is some sort of crazed pervert because of some bizarre, internal hang-up they might have.

Frankly, the more you disparage everyone for talking about it the longer the subject seems to go on.

Interesting, that...

That does look better.  i appreciate the demonstration.  Too many people throw out grand claims that make them sound like 3d superstars but can never actually demonstrate or show the benefits of what they are talking about.

Now do these animated joint centers change based on the rotations of the joint?  If not do they cause the joint to do anything weird at other rotations.  

Quote - Fixed hip comparison. Left old, right new.

(I also slightly reworked the weightmap)

 

"what units are you using Joe public?"

The display was set to "feet" when I made that screenshot.

As far as I can see, and nobody seems brave enough to say it, so I will say it for you, I am one of the people agreeing that genitalia is important.  Erogensis is the other.  I came into that thread that was locked and it was already underway, and I agreed with Ero.  A few rounds of this and I said "Hey, maybe it needs it's own thread..." so I started this one.  That's the only thread I started, and this thread was meant to be two things 1. Not about Dawn specifically and 2.  Not specifically about Genitals, though I did list them as needful things for the future.

Now what we have in this thread are people who will not let either of those items rest.  Particularly, the anti-genital set who keep trying to paint the pro-genital set into a pervert corner.  Ero has moved on to talk about form, and nobody is bashing Dawn here except for using her as a broad example.

Ero has started a couple of other threads that are specific to Genital issue and his project issue. 

It's not 4 threads about Genitals, but that's what "you people' are trying to make it sound like and you keep making it about Genitals with your strong anti stance.

We get it, you don't like them.  Got it.  Noted.

Now if you have something else to contribute, would love to hear from you.

If not, I personally bid you a hearty good day.

Maybe we are expecting way to much. I read in various CG magazines , that even in major proffessional CG animated Movie productions, different modells with different rigs are used for one Character. The reason is, that one Modell cannot do it all. Nevertheless it's fun, to bite our teeth into those issues, trying hard to find solutions.

I like that idea, sort of like how we used to have hi-res hands.

But it seems to me that if you came up with a high-res, super posable leg, you'd eventually just graft that on to a figure and try to have everything in one.

"Now do these animated joint centers change based on the rotations of the joint?  If not do they cause the joint to do anything weird at other rotations." 

You could use the dependency editor to tie the joint animation to the thigh bend so that it is kept in the original position otherwise.

Raising the joint centers deepens the hip/thigh gap you get when Dawn does a full 180° side-side split, but it also lessens the balloning of her butt.

The (deeper) gap is easily fixable with some smoothing of the side-side thigh weightmap, so I'd rather keep the joint centers in the new, more correct position, as the default split looks pretty bad anyway.

There is no adverse effect for a normal "legs apart" pose.

Thats just it you dont get it.  I dont have a strongly anti-genital stance.  I have strongly who cares stance. I do like 'em and I am sick of being painted in a certain light because I think its fine that dawn doesn't have 'em.    there actually is 4. but i guess one was just somebody asking about it and its dropped off now.  so there are three.  This one has been mostly filled with genitals just like the dawn thread was.  Its fine.  All I'm saying is you dont have much fair cause to get uppity about being painted in one light or the other when the same thing is going on in the opposite direction.

Quote - As far as I can see, and nobody seems brave enough to say it, so I will say it for you, I am one of the people agreeing that genitalia is important.  Erogensis is the other.  I came into that thread that was locked and it was already underway, and I agreed with Ero.  A few rounds of this and I said "Hey, maybe it needs it's own thread..." so I started this one.  That's the only thread I started, and this thread was meant to be two things 1. Not about Dawn specifically and 2.  Not specifically about Genitals, though I did list them as needful things for the future.

Now what we have in this thread are people who will not let either of those items rest.  Particularly, the anti-genital set who keep trying to paint the pro-genital set into a pervert corner.  Ero has moved on to talk about form, and nobody is bashing Dawn here except for using her as a broad example.

Ero has started a couple of other threads that are specific to Genital issue and his project issue. 

It's not 4 threads about Genitals, but that's what "you people' are trying to make it sound like and you keep making it about Genitals with your strong anti stance.

We get it, you don't like them.  Got it.  Noted.

Now if you have something else to contribute, would love to hear from you.

If not, I personally bid you a hearty good day.

Aah, I spoke too soon.

There are several ways to pose a figure to do a full split, and it seems my first attempt was wrong.

With proper thigh posing, the modified Dawn actually can do a full split better than the original without any further weightmap editing required.

:-)

BTW, sorry for hijacking this thread a bit.

It was just meant as a reply to Erogenisis' noticing Dawns' hip joint problems.

Think I should start my own "How to fix Dawn's hip thread".

:-)

Moved from other thread

Quote - 1. Since you've already created Lali's Bits and seem to be using it to great success, why do you feel the need for another figure?

Lali's Bits was such a PAIN in the butt to make that I vowed never to make anything for V4 or any V ever again. V4 is a mess with all its deformers and channels and what not, that it is much easier to make my own figure that is free of all DAZ's nonsense.

Plus, a prop is just a nuisance. I did eliminate most of the post work with Lali's Bits but there is still adjusting that needs to be done, and gaps between V4 and the prop are hard to see in preview mode. Integrated gens are so much more easier.

Quote - 2. Since you have her bits for sale does that make you a pimp? Just kidding. Wouldn't your sales figures give you a more accurate read of whether the community desires detailed genitalia or not, rather than this extremely small sampling? Can you provide any insight from your customers?

Not sure. Some people would still want a prop because it could give them more options and your not stuck to the gens I provide. What the sales do tell me is that there's PLENTY of interest in home-made 3D explicit erotica (or as some call it: porn!) and that V4 is still very very much alive.

Quote - 3. Wouldn't a new non-Daz figure suffer the same lack of support other figures have suffered? Especially as this figure would be aimed at a niche market, some sites would refuse to carry it. Some vendors would refuse to develop for it, and others would question its profit potential.

Most probably, but I'll still make it none-the-less. I think if I make it either compatible with V4 or at least very easy to convert clothing for her, then she might not do so bad. The most important motivator for me is that I want her, and all of my stuff is V4. We can see from thereon what I can do to make her useful in the community... and that might be very easy to do. But we'll see.

Quote - I don't do artwork that requires such detail at this point, but if I did I would require a variety of characters to choose from, a considerable amount of morphs for face and body customization, and plenty of clothes to remove from her.

That is also a very important thing for me. She will get a tonne of facemorphs to adjust the facial structure (and they will be loads better than what DAZ makes IMO). There will also be a load of bodymorphs of the same intensity, lots of variety, along the lines of S4 and all the basic Morph++ options. Inbuilt characters will probably be the same as what DAZ does now, presets using body options.

Quote - I wonder if it would make more sense as an artist to work with a well supported figure and add the bits than to try to customize a poorly supported but anatomically correct figure.

Depends what you wanna achieve and how good you are at 3D modelling and adjusting.

My V4 Lali (Laila, Amanda and Julie) is completely re-rigged, certain joint centers moved. Her textures are unique, I redid her geometry zones, her FBMs are unique, her breasts are unique and her clothing are unique. There is maybe 1% of morph++ in all my models, I use some of Aiko's expressions, and I never touched any other morph package, not even Steph. In fact I didn't have Steph until about three months ago. I rarely use V4 content made by others, and if I do I adapthe the hell out of it so that it is recognisable. I hate the idea of people recognising third party content in my work, otherwise it would just be an advertizement for DAZ, and not art. Its like someone looking at the Mona Lisa and saying: hey, that's the smile from Michaelangelo's Expression Pack, I downloaded it yesterday. Meh!

Lali might as well not be a V4, yet I am faring quite well without all this 'support'. So its all up to you and where you wanna go with it.

moved from other thread 

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Will she come with a Laila face morph :)

I would not have dared to ask that. ;) Or with a Lali facemorph. i just guess Ero doesn't want to give to much out of his hands. I really, really think honestly, that Lali could be bigger than that. Till now Lali is a Poser only thing. I thing she could easily hit the comic book market and could become a widely known Character as Druuna, Axa or Lara Croft is - Including all those merchandizing stuff like dolls, stages and t-shirts. Not joking here, I'm serious.

  It's ok, I often rib him elsewhere about this an he knows i'm only joking...I hope :)

hmmmm, Lali and Laila are out of bounds I'm afraid, but I will definitely provide the means to replicate their faces somewhat. 

As for Lali merchandise, I have been thinking about it. I'm busy working on a Lali doll just for fun, kindof a cartoon version of Lali with big eyes. Some other people have also suggested that I try make actual comic books. That would be amazing haha! But I first need to carry on making more comics. I only have three now!!

but now, who are you??? AoD? Rotica?

I wonder though... and maybe not given the PITA that you find a prop genital to be.. but wouldn't there be some validity to investing the effort into making a genital that can adapt very well to a wide range of figures and therefor people can leverage the widest range of existing content to go with their genital equipped figure.  Just thinking aloud here but it almost seems there would be less headache making that one prop work across multiple figures than there would be in trying to launch a new and disinct figure and rally enough support around that new figure to make it actually take off.

A demonstration of how to achieve better neds is denitely on topic in any thread about how to make a better figure

Quote - BTW, sorry for hijacking this thread a bit.

It was just meant as a reply to Erogenisis' noticing Dawns' hip joint problems.

Think I should start my own "How to fix Dawn's hip thread".

:-)

Quote -  

I dont think the primary thing causing offence is the idea of adding genitals.. its that some people were so offended by the lack of genitals in dawn that they couldn't accept it as a design decision that was communicated well in advance of release.  They were so offended that they felt the need to demonize anyone who said it was fine or they didnt care as being a prude/puritain/closed minded etc etc.  They were so offended that they felt the need to troll her thread telling everyone over and over that they shouldnt take interest in the figure.  

I dont think its the non-genital(or who cares genital) crowd who got overly offended at all.  I think its the guys who felt the need to run three or four simultaneous threads about touting the glory of genitals.  The crowd who keeps harping on this idea of puritanism or religous extremism being the primary reason anyone would take interest in a non genital figure.  Just because any particular persons life or 3d figure doesn't revolve around their genitalia is absolutely no to paint them in any particular light.  I imagine, or at least derive from the tone and wording of the postings that people are thinking of me as one of the 'religous nutjobs who's afraid of her own cunt'  but the reality is that I have a very free, wide ranging and well practiced sexualtiy.  I close the door to the bathroom when I shit too.. that doesn't mean I'm ashamed of taking a shit it just means that I have respect for the sensibilities of those around me.

... and wow that turned into a bit of a rant.. sorry and not all(or probably even mostly) aimed at the quoted poster.

At any rate.. the ankle less figure..

would I be interested, no.  If I was interested in everything else and the ankles were a problem for me I'd do my best to communicate that during the figures development when it could be changed and once that point was past I'd bow out and not worry about it.  If it was possible and I was capable I'd make a fix for that shortcoming and share it with others who also liked everything but that part.  What I wouldn't do is get so offended as to look for anything that could be potentially wrong with the figure and spam it as much as possible to try to drown out any positive vibe, or make it seem like a 'problem' figure rather than a decent figure with some very good points as well as some fairly common shortcomings

Quote - > Quote - I just find it damned weird that people have a problem with genitals at all. Exactly as weird, I expect, as you'd find people who have a problem with those who show their ankles.

Imagine a new female figure. Great -- except no ankles. You can use her for all kinds of shots. Just not the full body ones, or the ones with shoes. People who find ankles icky, or who are afraid to expose their children to ankles, just love her.

^How I feel about Dawn.

Guess not everybody is as openminded as you are. But before you go gore someone else's sacred ox, think how you might feel if some gores yours.

Frankly, I think some people in this forum are a little too fixated on the genitals of some of these figures.

You hit the nail on the head here! Perfectly explained!

Hehe if there's anyone that needs to apologise for hijacking a thread its...

ME!!!

But since it is in line with what William started off with, then I hope that's ok.

Ok so onwards with hijacking this thread hihi

Genitals. Yeah maybe I did cause more of a fuss than necessary, or maybe not. I can't tell and I'd rather not bother with it. But people seem to respond, luckily mostly positively. There's evidently definitely interest in the subject for at least a handfull of people over here in Rosity.

Sorry if it comes across as genitals genitals genitals genitals genitals genitals genitals but like I've said a few times, and actually highlighted to me by someone else (because I also got a little caught up in it) there's much more to this hypothetical figure / project e than just a major vagina. So its definitely not only about that.

Its really no mystery why these threads are getting so much attention. Well... its genitals, and genitals are the one part of the body mostly related to sex. Sex is a popular subject, most of us engage in it, some more than others. Sex is stooped in moral and medical issues and sex is also a big psychological thing for us. religious rites have been designed around it and countries have gone to war over it. The 70's was prectically about sex. The porn industry is probably bigger than Hollywood. Its probably the one thing that everyone has some opinion about.

The other reason is that there's a persistent pattern concerning genitals in 3D figure's bodies. Even if one's interest doesn't lie in genitals, it is something that you could immediately notice. Never mind the reasons why, its just the most consistent pattern: either it's somewhat there, or hardly there, or completely absent. For the rest every single figure has a bellybutton, a mouth, eyes, a butt, toes, knees, etc. But genitals is always half there, not there, etc. And the reason of this is obviously because of how society views it. That's perfectly understandable, just a little annoying for some. 

So yeah, I don't think its so strange that this topic is getting so much attention. I don't think its a bad thing either. There's nothing wrong with chatting with genitals. It might be outside of some people's comfort zones, but its hard to accomodate for everyone, I suppose.

Plus, the reason I made two more threads is because I don't wanna mix up different aspects of this figure. That's how you get confusion and fights IMO. There's the moral issue of genitals, there's the question about whether or not people at all want it in a figure, and then there's the question about how. William started the last, I am to blame for the other two.

So I hope people don't view us as perverts or obsessed idiots just trying to make noise. It just so happens to be about a subject that kindof gets avoided by companies, and also a subject that gets written and talked about in magazines and talk shows... a LOT!!!

peace!

glory of genitals?

er, no. Genitals are actually the most banal, crazy, disgusting, slimy parts of a human being... LOL... but they do cause quite a stir in our society. 

The whole thing is just the persistent reservation of them in official female figures. It is bound to set off some talk. Its not about glorifying them, its about finding out whether or not and how we can deviate from this pattern. 

And to further explain my point, when Project E comes out (if it comes out) I gurarantee you that despite all the other features about it would probably not be talked about as much, as her obvious genitals, because suddenly, in the row of modestly to sparsly equipped 3D female figures, there's a figure completely rigged with very detailed genitals. That will definitely cause one heck of a stir. 

That's the pattern that I am talking about.

PS: just for fun, speaking of genitals being anything but glorious, the male genitals are IMO a design flaw. One kick in the nuts and that whole bundle of muscle and strength is out of action!! haha

To start wirh, lets review rendo's TOS http://www.renderosity.com/tos.php

No links to sexually explicit sites. That includes signature lines. One can't even look at project E without going through a porn site. This shit desn't belong here.

Thats what 'rotica and few other sites are for.

moved from here

Quote - > Quote - Personally I'm not too bugged by it. If it turns out to be as good as I hope, and people still avoid it because she's got a vagina, well that's their loss. 

meatSim -

  From my point of view though, its not just their loss, its everyones.  well everyone who wants a figure for a wide range of uses.  If its the 'porn' figure its not going to get the support for non erotic uses and unfortunately at that point it will cease to matter if its the-hands-down-best figure ever made.  Even someone who doesnt care at all if it has genitals but wants to be able to use a figure for 'everyday' work is screwed unless they can provide the clothing for it.  Now if you are a clothing creator who makes kind of everyday not to sexual stuff but the figure is known to mostly be used for erotica are you going to put any time into it.. probably not as the target audience for that figure wont have much interest in your work.  even if you are doing it for free you want people to at least appreciate and use your work.

But that would have to be the figure without the genitals, but still made by erogenesis. The marketing strategy would have to be VERY cunning, and I'd have to redesign my whole site because its chock full of very erotic and explicit stuff. Hmmmm...

I don't like the idea of having to curb my fun-loving image for the sake of selling the figure to people that cannot handle sexy imagery, but then again, like you say the support will be minimal. Unless I have a separate website for the figure. Hmmpf!

You raise a good point though. 

The thing is, I hope I can find a way to make it easily fit V4's stuff, then it should work. But that's a big IF!

Quote - To start wirh, lets review rendo's TOS http://www.renderosity.com/tos.php

No links to sexually explicit sites. 

oops, changing now

Quote -  

The thing is, I hope I can find a way to make it easily fit V4's stuff, then it should work. But that's a big IF!

That does seem to be the holy grail doesn't it!

Quote - glory of genitals?

er, no. Genitals are actually the most banal, crazy, disgusting, slimy parts of a human being... LOL... but they do cause quite a stir in our society. 

The whole thing is just the persistent reservation of them in official female figures. It is bound to set off some talk. Its not about glorifying them, its about finding out whether or not and how we can deviate from this pattern. 

How to deviate from the pattern, just make the damn fogure with built in genitals, It;s your friggin' choice and decision, just like other people get to make their own decision about whether to make a figure with or without or a strap on. 

You don't need the approval of the community or anyone else, and certainly don't need to innundate a 'mixed company' kind of forum with threads about sex and genitals.

You want genitals, great, make them.

I'd like to not have to stop frequenting this forum if I didnlt want to be innundated with sex and genitals talk 24/7. Unlike yours, my life and work doesn't revolve around them, and it's a kind of a thing myself and MANY other people refer to keep a bit more private, because it is a very intimate and personal thing. Not someting I alway want to have on display. It has noting to do with being a prude, I'm anyting bit, I even made genitals and other things  for one of erotic poser marketplaces myself...BUT, I'm not in here starting a number of threads about it or up in the arms because some poser figures dont have them.

Everything has it's own time and a place. Sex and genitals are not acceptable to everyone everywhere. It's sad that some people here can't respect other people's boundaries and social norms, when in a mixed company public place - which is what this forum is.

Sex is not the only thing people are 'funny' about, there are many tings people prefer to discuss with close friends or with a degree of privacy, and not have it forced on them.

Usually I'm one of those people who think it's odd that DAZ and whomever feels the need to NOT have genitals, but I can understand and respect their decision, and even though if I was making a figure it would have built in genitals, it's not such a huge deal. 

With so much talk about genitals, you've already branded your figure as a niche fogure for porn sites only and you haven't even started making it.  You're going to lose the support of those of us who aren't so interested in pushing people to find sex and public nudity more aceptable in wider circles - which is as you may find out, majority of people. Perhaps you've spent so much time in sex industry that you lost pespective of mainstream social norms.

Also, I'm getting little tired of everyone who doesn't walk without their clothes off 24/7 being called a pruce. I bet even you put your clothes on when you go to a grocery store.

Quote -   That does seem to be the holy grail doesn't it!

no kidding! O.o

Just make the figure first, it's going to take you good 6 months to a year just to do that.

Start marketing it when it's much closer to being done, Poserdom has the attentin span of a gold fish... Look at the reactions about Dawn, or any other figure. It gets out , two days later people are complayining that it doesn't have clothing and morph support of a figure that has been out nearly 10 years.

Thats in part of why I mentioned that I doubt you have skills to make it happen. There is Much more to making a figure then just modeling. You haven;t even stated, and you already have a controversy on your hands.

Product don't hit mainstream by getting embattled in controversies. All this time and energy over the past week, you could have been getting technical feedback, instead, due to people;s reactions, things are getting derailed left and right. If you want to successd, you need to learn how to keep your project from getting derailed into irrelevant things. On one hand you say genitals are not that relevant, three minutes, you are talking about them like it's the most important thing on a figure. You're sending a LOT of mixed messages out to people.

Attracting attention with a specialized product in a specialized marketplace, like rotica is very different from attracting Poserdom mainstream. Surrounding yourself with friends who are goign to call mainstream prudes and other negativities is certainly not a winning formula.

Quote - > Quote -  

The thing is, I hope I can find a way to make it easily fit V4's stuff, then it should work. But that's a big IF!

 That does seem to be the holy grail doesn't it!

Not necessarily. Every time a new significant figure has come out, people have complained about OMG, I have to buy all new clothes.... then they started buying it.

When V4 came out people we re all up in arms about V3... then they saw how much neater the clothes for V4 were, because of updated technology at the time, and their interests and priorities changed.