First, I need to say this..and please dont block it.

how can a meaningful discussion be had on a topic when its blocked, even priot to anything bad being said? Minority Report all over again.

I think the discussion on Poser v DAZ is legitimate. As a long time Poser user, I feel the pain, as more and more vendors fall into the DAZ marketing scheme..and yes, it is all about the profit margin. Unfortunate that, as sometimes loyalty of a hobby is essential.

I have been on this site since its inception, before it was even called Renderosity. There have been many changes over the years. The first iteration was actually just free items being passed around. It slowly became a business. There was a time DAZ did not exist. Its evolution has been a very interesting and rewarding path for all of us... especially Poser users.

Poser users that are sticking to a great program could learn more modeling techniques, texturing, etc, and create our own content, improve existing things, and so forth.

Content availability has been an ongoing problem. How many times have people asked for specific items, but they were not forthcoming as the demand was not there for them? aka..not able to bring in revenue?

Its pretty circular, isnt it. There never has been much demand for items for the stock Poser figures. Why not? If we, as Poser users, supported them, perhaps Poser's future would be much brighter.

In the end, its all about creating art, isn't it? What tools do you feel most comfortable with. The fact Poser is losing a lot of vendor support does not make it obsolete. I have seen a lot of great art made with even the early Poser figures. The lack of Poser support is actually a great thing if you look at it as an opportunity to refine your skills. The make art button is great, but perhaps this can kindle a better understanding of photoshop, paint shop pro, etc. An opportunity to learn to make your own clothes, models, etc.

The problem is we've been having the same discussion since Daz Studio was first released in what 2005? and many of us foresaw that daz would split the market, we were called mad and troublemakers at the time by the way lol, and absolutely nothing has changed - it's still the same things being said.

Daz aren't going to give Poser a new figure so it will have to come from someone else but the community is to divided - to many people are heavily invested in Victoria 4 to support a new figure like Dawn - and their isn't much else at the moment. Personally I really think Victoria 4 should be put out to pasture somewhere but until a New Poser figure comes along that's much better it won't happen lol.

Unfortunately, merchants and community members have made it quite clear they don't like the Poser figures, so I don't think that will change.

Perhaps Posers future doesn't lay with the stores but with the community forums of old. who knows

thing is, so many of these threads get derailed and turned into flame threads

don't blame the mods for locking them, blame the users.

Hopefully this thread won't turn into a flame war and get locked, because this is something that the Poser community needs to talk about.

I've said this time and again, the content you already have is not going to go bad. You can use it forever - within the limits of whatever version of Poser you're using - and it will still function as it used to, years down the line.

New stuff... well, I ain't abandoning Poser any time soon. Read that as "ever". I may not be the most prolific but at least I'll still turn stuff out now and again.

patorak3d posted at 6:38PM Sun, 18 June 2017 - #4307814

Hopefully this thread won't turn into a flame war and get locked, because this is something that the Poser community needs to talk about.

That would be my hope too. In fairness I was surprised how long the last thread on this subject ran and but once it reaches the 'Mine is bigger than yours' or 'I never said that - yes you did - no I didn't' realm the value is lost.

There are some valid points to be made, for instance elsewhere it is stated that Dawn will not work in Poser, well clearly no one told my version of dawn that is the case as it had been working in my 2014 version of Poser for a couple of years now. Not only that but most of the time she is wearing V4 clothes so my investment is not lost. I did not challenge that statement in that forum because, quite frankly, I felt no one wanted to listen and it would just have turned into another locked thread.

I couldn't agree more that lack of vendor support does not make Poser obsolete and I also feel the vast number of Poser users could learn so much more about it that would enrich their art. For that to happen there has to be a place where there can be an open and honest discussion of what is available at this point in time. This particularly true when recent changes at SM suggest it might be some time before Poser gains any new capability.

The problem has always been that, with one notable exception, when Poser is discussed in forums the subject quickly turns to how much bigger and better DS is and the thread gets locked. Conspiracy Theorist will see this as the whole reason Poser is struggling for vendor support. My view........really could not comment, far to busy using figures to create renders in Poser that some insist in not possible and please me far more then V4 ever did.

I will keep this up ... but please know ... at the first sign of trashing one program over the other this will be locked. Take care and be constructive folks. Thank you.

Thank you Boni.

I heard Dawn was a good figure. i'm trying to remember the first independent figures; was it Cherry Doll, Maya Doll, the zygote Mil figures, or perhaps some I am forgetting.

Hi Sam. Glad to see you are on board.

patorak3d posted at 8:47PM Sun, 18 June 2017 - #4307834

Thank you Boni.

I heard Dawn was a good figure. i'm trying to remember the first independent figures; was it Cherry Doll, Maya Doll, the zygote Mil figures, or perhaps some I am forgetting.

Hi Sam. Glad to see you are on board.

Hey, Pat. Good to read you, mate.

I think the Zygote Victoria was the first. Maya Doll and Cherry Anime came along some time later.

[patorak3d]

I heard Dawn was a good figure. i'm trying to remember the first independent figures; was it Cherry Doll, Maya Doll, the zygote Mil figures, or perhaps some I am forgetting.

Hi Sam. Glad to see you are on board.

You heard correctly.

Dawn (and Dusk) ARE good figures. They stumbled out of the gate with a lack of morph sets (since corrected).

They are becoming my go-to figures. They have quite a few characters for them, and I get better results in the fitting room with them than I do with DAZ figures.

I was a vendor for many years at Renderosity with 99% poser objects and dynamic clothing. Had a thriving business. Sales started falling off and as a result, I closed the store. The time and effort in creating new products was not worth it with the meager return.

During the slumping period I received many requests to make my products Daz compatible.

The statement I hear many times is that Poser is dying and it is Daz fault. These emails sort of indicate that Poser isn't dying because of Daz, it is because the Poser faithful are falling away in favor of Daz. Why are vendors more and more creating for DAZ, and creating less for Poser? Less sales are realized for Poser products.

Support the vendors who are still creating for Poser and you will not have to say, "Why aren't many vendors making Poser products anymore."

Pappy

pappy411 posted at 4:29PM Sun, 18 June 2017 - #4307849

Why are vendors more and more creating for DAZ, and creating less for Poser? Less sales are realized for Poser products.

Pappy

This argument has been used for many years - but it was a self for filling prophecy.

If you don't have a Poser figure that the vendors will create for the customer won't buy, if the customer won't buy the vendors don't create.

and

If a store drops support for Poser to a bare minimum, then Poser items won't sell because you can't buy what isn't available. And then the store will tell you that Poser items don't sell (yep that happens)

"An opportunity to learn to make your own clothes, models, etc...."

This^

If you really want liberate yourself from what "the market" decides to support then I suggest you do what I and many others have done.

LEARN TO CREATE CLOTHING MODELS!!!!

In so doing, you not only insure that will always have unique,one off original clothing content for your figures, But you are "future proofed" against the forced obsolesence imposed by the release of yet another named & numbered Model that causes the immediate abondonment of the previous generation by the almighty providers.

Case in point(and please no DAZ bashing!!!!) I prefer the Genesis 2 figures. They accept all of my vast library of Character motions with little to no adjustments. And I spent months re-creating my CG selfclone with the Genesis 2 Male ,finally adandoning my aged Mike 2 self clone.

Genesis 2 is Dead!!! has no future for the content makers and Genesis 3 will soon follow now that the new Genesis is released

The almighty providers will follow the money. Lovely people have to eat and pay for housing and transportation etc. and at least they are selling you an honest,take it or leave it, product they are creating instead of just stealing your wealth like banks& insurance companies.

Trust me the freedom that comes from being your own content creator is quite satisfying as you always get exactly what you want

The attached pic is my new sportswear set for my preferred figure the Genesis 2 male. Clothing ,watch ,ring smartphone & duffel bag created by Me!!

There are many ways to light Europe.!

My new space suit fort the G2 male.

And the impending abandonment of the Genesis 3 models is of no concern to me either "The Administrator" for the G3 male

I've only been using poser for about two and a half years, but already my V4 and M4 libraries are pretty full. I don't want to buy anymore typical V4 characters that just have different makeups and a few tattoos or whatever, and I don't want to buy more skimpy fantasy outfits or underwear for her. I'm not saying I never buy anything for V4 anymore but it has to be different, for example Cybertenko's Russian regulator. But I do buy products for other poser figures, which now means Dawn, a few things for Pauline and the odd item for Miki4. (I'm discounting male figures as anything for these tends to be a rarity. ) The point I'm trying to make is that I think the market for V4/M4 amongst poser users is pretty saturated, and so of course sales will drop off. But there is an understandable short termism amongst vendors, quite naturally as they want a reasonable reward for their labours. This is what drives the vicious circle of there is little content for a figure, therefor it is hardly used, therefor no-one wants to get involved making content for it. Dawn is finally overcoming this thanks to ardent support by her creator. But SM doesn't support its figures in the same way. Perhaps one or more of the new figures we are being promised for poser by various creators will get sufficient vendor support and take off, but this might depend on vendors being willing to make less initially while support for the figure develops both amongst users and vendors. But as a Poser user I have more stuff in my runtimes already than I'm ever likely to use as well as over 1000dollars worth of stuff in various wish lists, so I'm going to be usng Poser for a long-time yet.

wolf359 posted at 11:45PM Sun, 18 June 2017 - #4307866

And the impending abandonment of the Genesis 3 models is of no concern to me either "The Administrator" for the G3 male

Really like the look of this. Lex Luthor hitting the gym.

SamTherapy posted at 5:51PM Sun, 18 June 2017 - #4307869

wolf359 posted at 11:45PM Sun, 18 June 2017 - #4307866

And the impending abandonment of the Genesis 3 models is of no concern to me either "The Administrator" for the G3 male

Really like the look of this. Lex Luthor hitting the gym.

Thanks Sam

I find new Poser users every once in awhile, and I'm not sure where this comes from, probably lack of imitative somewhat of the new user, but they have no idea there are secondary market items for Poser at all. I point them here, and to my friends store now closed. I rarely visit the poser form at SM, but it seemed to be kicking up pretty good at the beginning.

Also I think it somewhat important to remember that Poser was originally to be used as a pose-able computer dummy, just like those wood ones you can pose. I had P1 but cant even remember if it had clothes ... I think it did, but even then, there was much more 2D work being applied than actually rendering completed scenes.

That is a huge tool if you can learn to do it, and there are many many 2d brushes, etc to assist. Materials, and so forth. I remember using some of the hjair brushes way back. Awesomeness :)

Back to the market..the market, or Poser dedicated stores, has shrunk a lot over the years as well. For a bit there were a ton of them, but slowly DAZ ate into the market.

Question: is it not possible, even with G3 and below figures to set them up in DS and then export as OBJ, import into Poser? I would think pretty much all the stuff, including Stonemason's great products. Or not? If so, that in itself opens up a lot of possibilities.

I've never created clothing for Poser or Daz Studio. I've been told by vendors that it's easier to create clothing in D/s. I kind of wish somebody would put up a side by side comparison of what the differences are for creating clothing between the two programs. I have exported D/S clothing and successfully imported it without DSON (except some long sleeve outfits seem to have issues on converting from G3 to V4). Would Poser be better if the next version included a modelling program in it's next distribution? At one time Shade3d (which was lovely for modelling and creating things for Poser) and Poser were owned by the same company. It seems like a natural step for both Poser and D/S to start to include detailed modelling tools for content creation. Right now both have lots of pieces of tools for content creation.

*edited to add: It is possible to export G3's from D/S and then import to Poser. The really big issue is with materials, especially large sets, and handling so many different textures.

I' m afraid it IS true that vendors abandoned Poser for DS.. it has nothing to do with the programs.

It is also true that in the summer of the last site re-design.. many members went away for a few months - some even longer. It was about the same time that G3 came around. Vendors revenue went down dramatically those first months and the majority of them saw DS as their way out - new figure, more new users.

Personally I chose to endure the low income for a few months and stick to what I love and know best. In the long run my choice was justified. My store is thriving and I do not have a single DS product. So to me it's clear that Poser users have still lots of choices as many other vendors are like me or work both software. The marketplace is flooded with fantastic Poser content of the past ten years!

There's a huge variety of Poser content in RMP to explore, new items too! So allow me to remind you something we all seem to forget out of habit...

Always click Marketplace/NEW POSER... not what's new like you were used to all these years!.

If you are 100% Poser like me, it's the only way to avoid the many pages of DS content that means nothing to you.. no more tedious sorting out through pages but only products that work great in the software you love! You'll be surprised how many things have passed by your attention just because they were hidden among DS content that you didn't have the tolerance to seek and explore thumbnail by thumbnail. I know how frustrating that was, this is why I fought for this option and I'm glad it's been implemented! :)

I also agree that I don't need another tight outfit or sexy bodysuit for V4.. but I'm grateful I have an endless choice of fantasy and era outfits that no new DS figure will ever get the chance to have as none will stick around for ten years to get all that tremendous support that V4 got - concerning morphs, wardrobe, hair, accessories, all sorts of outfits that one might need or imagine for any kind of specific renders.

I think that the most productive way to think for Pose users at the moment is to explore the marketplace vendor by vendor.. get the chance to know what each one has to offer - even those that now do DS they used to create for many years Poser content... you'll be surprised how many wonderful things have by-passed your attention and didn't even know they existed! :)

And just remember... Marketplace/New Poser... that's all you need to embark to that journey that I'm sure won't disappoint you! :)

Rena

patorak3d posted at 10:17AM Mon, 19 June 2017 - #4307834

Thank you Boni.

I heard Dawn was a good figure. i'm trying to remember the first independent figures; was it Cherry Doll, Maya Doll, the zygote Mil figures, or perhaps some I am forgetting.

Hi Sam. Glad to see you are on board.

I will leave it for others to decide if the figure 'works' in Poser.

This is a Dawn SE based character wearing a V4 dynamic shirt.

And for expressions

I don't do nudes but a bit of bending.

Don't forget Dave-So's initial remark. => In the beginning, there "ONLY" was Poser, and it was seen as a GREAT HOBBY 3D application.

All hobby artists started sharing what they made for FREE. => Times were great, and the user base grew.

Then came the problem. Some wanted to make money and started selling.

The "HOBBY" became a business. => And with business, the competition started at all levels. => Mine is better then yours, I sell more then you, I make more money then you, and so on..

Some took the opportunity to start a store to make even more money.

Economy took over the "hobby".

Not only for content, but later on also for the "newer" apps like DS and i-clone, and others.

There are those that still see "3D art" as a fine hobby and there are those that are more interested in paying the bills, and making even more money.

tonyvilters posted at 12:29PM Mon, 19 June 2017 - #4307914

Don't forget Dave-So's initial remark. => In the beginning, there "ONLY" was Poser, and it was seen as a GREAT HOBBY 3D application.

All hobby artists started sharing what they made for FREE. => Times were great, and the user base grew.

Then came the problem. Some wanted to make money and started selling.

The "HOBBY" became a business. => And with business, the competition started at all levels. => Mine is better then yours, I sell more then you, I make more money then you, and so on..

Some took the opportunity to start a store to make even more money.

Economy took over the "hobby".

Not only for content, but later on also for the "newer" apps like DS and i-clone, and others.

There are those that still see "3D art" as a fine hobby and there are those that are more interested in paying the bills, and making even more money.

I take your point, even free share sites are now opening up stores so the trend continues. That said there are still a lot of users making stuff for free and even more making their own content, which begs the question 'when is program seen as being obsolete'? Is it when vendors can no longer make a profit from it or when people stop using it to create art?

Being here from Poser1, I see myself as "an old timer". Yes, I'v seen it all come and go.

From the WHAW, what is this???? To the initial free stuff overflow, to the hobby 3D artists, to where we "unfortunately" are fighting now.

Poser is , and always will be a GREAT app. Digital content does not age. It's only shortcomings where the default figures.

The market took over with better figures, and everybody wants to be in bed with, and follows the hottest chick blindfolded.

let's be honest: Good art, while very difficult to make, does not sell itself. At most, it can make it's creator proud.

Sex sells. => Hence that's why most "hot items" are rather slutty items. LOL.

In reality, I doubt any program would ever go totally obsolete as long as users were getting out of it what they wanted. It would be possible to still use PSP v1 if it would run on current systems, for instance, and back then, a lot of folks were putting out some fabulous art. ALL of the programs have limitations, and all of them have work arounds.

Its all in each individuals creativity and how much they want to learn. The tools are in our hands. We just need to use them.

MODELING FOR POSER: There are tons of modelers. SILO A new version just came out recently 2.4 beta, so its still in the loop. Hexagon ..way cheap at DAZ, as well as Carrara @ DAZ which during a sale I pcked up for $3. Free Blender ... etc etc ..plus a ton of high end programs.

tonyvilters posted at 7:56AM Mon, 19 June 2017 - #4307919

Being here from Poser1, I see myself as "an old timer". Yes, I'v seen it all come and go.

From the WHAW, what is this???? To the initial free stuff overflow, to the hobby 3D artists, to where we "unfortunately" are fighting now.

Poser is , and always will be a GREAT app. Digital content does not age. It's only shortcomings where the default figures.

The market took over with better figures, and everybody wants to be in bed with, and follows the hottest chick blindfolded.

let's be honest: Good art, while very difficult to make, does not sell itself. At most, it can make it's creator proud.

Sex sells. => Hence that's why most "hot items" are rather slutty items. LOL.

LOL ... I sort of glaze over most of the "slutwear" anymore. One of the items I always wanted were real life clothing. worn, battered, torn, dirty, and even the clean stuff. Shirts, jeans, etc. There are tons of tight, short, cleavage revealing, lingerie to last for 500 years :) But it obviously sells.

Phil Cook had a bunch of great simple Python apps to design clothing, hair, and a bunch of stuff.

"Don't forget Dave-So's initial remark. => In the beginning, there "ONLY" was Poser, and it was seen as a GREAT HOBBY 3D application. All hobby artists started sharing what they made for FREE. => Times were great, and the user base grew."

Competition and financial interests are the main drivers of innovation and technological advancement. Even the mighty Blender is funded by the $$$solicitations $$ of the Blender foundation.

It may be soothing ,for some, to sit and feel nostalgic about the past when poser was just a quaint little small community hobbiest app.

But it is frankly delusional to think that poser ,the application, would have all of the features it has today if somehow stayed "Pure" from monied interests.

People with advanced knowledge that adds value to a product should be paid for their work.

The content producers left because they were provided with standardized, user friendly rigging tools in the other program. BEFORE the "fitting room" was introduced. That period of time where there was the transfer utility vs the various different ways to rig for poser, was the decisive factor for many.

And let not forget the V4/M4 legacy catalogue factor either. Genesis 1 could wear ALL of Mike&Vicky's Clothing and skin maps by default from day one with all body morph transferred automaticly. None of the poser native or third party figure had this advantage and depended on paid third party "converters" that may or may not have supported them.

No promises of an "amazing" 20 something looking Northern European white girl poser figure is going to overcome these systematic challenges.

wolf359 posted at 8:48AM Mon, 19 June 2017 - #4307925

The content producers left because they were provided with standardized, user friendly rigging tools in the other program. BEFORE the "fitting room" was introduced. That period of time where there was the transfer utility vs the various different ways to rig for poser, was the decisive factor for many.

hmm, even before the "fitting room", getting a rig into clothing and setting it up really isn't that difficult, I'm comfortable rigging in both software but can still set up a basic rig with the groups I want quicker in Poser than in DS.

Yea converting used to be fun in Poser we had - Wardrobe Wizard, CrossDresser, Morphing Clothes and a few other fun little tools and scripts.

Didn't one of those clothing conversion utility creators help code the Daz Studio transfer utility thing?

And let not forget the V4/M4 legacy catalogue factor either. Genesis 1 could wear ALL of Mike&Vicky's Clothing and skin maps by default from day one with all body morph transferred automaticly. None of the poser native or third party figure had this advantage and depended on paid third party "converters" that may or may not have supported them.

The code for the Poser DSON plugin is managed by Daz so improved legacy support for V4 and M4 on Genesis would be up to Daz3D.

I'm sure if Daz3D had made a native Poser version of the Genesis figure at the time more Poser user would have continued to support their store.

Daz3D pretty much only have legacy support for Poser users now - most of us are looking for the future not the past

adzan posted at 10:54AM Mon, 19 June 2017 - #4307807

The problem is we've been having the same discussion since Daz Studio was first released in what 2005? and many of us foresaw that daz would split the market, we were called mad and troublemakers at the time by the way lol, and absolutely nothing has changed - it's still the same things being said.

Daz aren't going to give Poser a new figure so it will have to come from someone else but the community is to divided - to many people are heavily invested in Victoria 4 to support a new figure like Dawn - and their isn't much else at the moment. Personally I really think Victoria 4 should be put out to pasture somewhere but until a New Poser figure comes along that's much better it won't happen lol.

Unfortunately, merchants and community members have made it quite clear they don't like the Poser figures, so I don't think that will change.

Perhaps Posers future doesn't lay with the stores but with the community forums of old. who knows

If you've seen the long running thread I started a couple of years ago, you'll see that V4 isn't going anywhere. Furthermore, Poser continues to cut it's own throat, though not intentionally, with it's "backwards compatibility at all costs!" creedo. The clothes that you can fit to any figure improvements are great except the figure everyone is using to fit clothes to is V4.

"hmm, even before the "fitting room", getting a rig into clothing and setting it up really isn't that difficult, I'm comfortable rigging in both software but can still set up a basic rig with the groups I want quicker in Poser than in DS."

If it is that easy for poser where are all of the new poser content creators?

For me in DS it is Make & detail model in C4D from my 6000 face base Dev mesh suit (pictured below) Export to Daz studio

Load target figure

launch transfer utility

choose clothing type from drop down (Shirt,pants, full body, etc) hit OK. Done!! I have fully functional conformer with all figure morphs active less than 10 second seconds , after export from C4D.

Save to library

"Daz3D pretty much only have legacy support for Poser users now - most of us are looking for the future not the past"

You are wise look to the future Yet the 11 year old V4 is the most supported figure by the remaining poser content providers... convince them. Not Me.

EClark1894 posted at 10:36AM Mon, 19 June 2017 - #4307939

adzan posted at 10:54AM Mon, 19 June 2017 - #4307807

The problem is we've been having the same discussion since Daz Studio was first released in what 2005? and many of us foresaw that daz would split the market, we were called mad and troublemakers at the time by the way lol, and absolutely nothing has changed - it's still the same things being said.

Daz aren't going to give Poser a new figure so it will have to come from someone else but the community is to divided - to many people are heavily invested in Victoria 4 to support a new figure like Dawn - and their isn't much else at the moment. Personally I really think Victoria 4 should be put out to pasture somewhere but until a New Poser figure comes along that's much better it won't happen lol.

Unfortunately, merchants and community members have made it quite clear they don't like the Poser figures, so I don't think that will change.

Perhaps Posers future doesn't lay with the stores but with the community forums of old. who knows

If you've seen the long running thread I started a couple of years ago, you'll see that V4 isn't going anywhere. Furthermore, Poser continues to cut it's own throat, though not intentionally, with it's "backwards compatibility at all costs!" creedo. The clothes that you can fit to any figure improvements are great except the figure everyone is using to fit clothes to is V4.

I've probably posted in the thread, but I'm like a fish and don't remember what I had for lunch lol.

Perhaps I shall hold an anti V4 demonstration and sell t-shirts for Pauline and Dawn The poor love must be worn out by now, she deserves to be sent to a nice retirement home.

Yes some like the backward support, me, I want new, I want decent figures and I also want them to get rid of all that stuff that they've been including in the download since Poser 4 lol. It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't lump the old and new together in the download. It did suggest it in their yearly survey a couple of times but alas..

I'm actually quite a lovely person in real life, the forum makes me come across as quite horrid

Mmmmm donutsss...no wait, about Poser.

I love Poser. I use whatever figures come with it, if they have decent apparel, which usually they don't. So which figures do? M4 and V4! So I use them.

Maybe Dawn is great and Dusk is swell too, but i don't have anything in my closet for them to wear. Also, if you do any animation and use animation files, changing figures can be catastrophic to your animation. The body parts are often named differently and soon you have a dancing pretzel.

I'm think I'm different from most of you hard core users in that I don't want to fiddle in the cloth room, or make a rigging or whatever. I just want to build the scene I see in my head as easily as I can and I don't mind spending the money to do so. Just bought more from Renderosity yesterday and my wish list keeps on growing for Poser vendors. Mostly it depends on the current project I'm working on.

I used to love Daz figures and props but when they changed, so did my opinion of them. I don't even see the sense in their business model. They want to sell items, not the program, but they don't make the items available to Poser users. Since I know they can (always did) I assume they think it's best to ignore Poser users hoping they'll switch. Okay, it's their business and I still buy the occasional item from Daz if it will work in Poser, but I'm not going to switch to DAZ and their program is free!

I also find the threads such as "is poser a dead program" to be self defeating. If you are using it, it's not dead. Seems a little "the sky is falling" to me.

Nothing is forever. I'm going to enjoy using Poser until I can't anymore. Probably buy every new version.

Of course I'm the village idiot, so take that with a large grain of salt.

And now for that donut.

"I don't even see the sense in their business model. They want to sell items, not the program,

It is called a "loss leader" business model Like "free " smartphones that require you to sign up for a two year contract with a specific service provider. They eat the cost of the phone knowing that they will get two years of revenue minimum from each person who gets the "Free" phone.

DAZ eats the development cost of the application in hopes that people will buy content for the program at their store and people most certainly are doing just that

but they don't make the items available to Poser users.

You mean they dont make the items in a poser native format any longer. poser users must find there own way to get NON poser native content into poser if they wish to use it.

we users of other programs like Maxon Cinema4D Autodesk Max ,Maya SideFX houdini. Blender do not get Daz studio content in our native format either

we have to use FBX,Collada Alembic,.obj , MDD exports from Daz studio.

Hey Sam How are you doing? How's your family doing? Great I hope.

wolf359, your clothes look awesome.

you guys, Dawn looks good seems to bend good as well.

I don't think one figure alone would revive Poser, though. I think it would take eleven figures to begin with, then build from there.

wolf359, your clothes look awesome.

Thanks!!!

patorak3d posted at 2:50PM Tue, 20 June 2017 - #4308001

Hey Sam How are you doing? How's your family doing? Great I hope.

wolf359, your clothes look awesome.

you guys, Dawn looks good seems to bend good as well.

I don't think one figure alone would revive Poser, though. I think it would take eleven figures to begin with, then build from there.

I'm not looking for ANY figure to revive Posers market share. Frankly, that's up to SM to turn around. Despite all the doomsaying for the last 8 years, Poser's still here and has a sizable user base. What SM NEEDS to do to revive Poser is to focus on and improve Poser's core feature sets. It needs to concentrate on the things it CAN do and do well, that Studio can't. And it should improve upon the features that it already has. In other words, Poser needs to get a little cutthroat. I'm not saying to be mean and try to put DAZ out of business. Frankly, that would be a major blunder on SM's part. They need DAZ more than DAZ needs them at the moment. And while figures seem to be the major point everyone seems to focus on, SM has already shown it has an amazing low, almost bordering on non-existent, regard for making the effort to produce the type of figures that would get the community to sit up and take notice. If SM really wanted to put CP back in the retail game, I'd focus on the other aspects that renders feature. animatable props, environments, scenery and settings, etc.

I was a poser user for many years and then Daz Studio came along. I was not terribly impressed at first but then the various models started to appear. Daz is offering some amazing characters while Poser seems determined to live with M4 and V4 forever. If developers developed high quality characters for Poser I would probably stay with Poser and please don't suggest the two low quality characters that came with Poser 11. Both are a sad joke. Now Daz is coming out with an even more sophisticated Victoria 8 and soon a Michael 8. Am I expected to stay loyal to Poser when the best that is offered is M4 & V4??? I feel that if Smith Micro doesn't wake up and smell the coffee soon it will be too late.

Now Daz is coming out with an even more sophisticated Victoria 8 and soon a Michael 8. Am I expected to stay loyal to Poser when the best that is offered is M4 & V4??.

Why bring "Loyalty" into the equation?? I have Zero "Loyalty" to corporations

Where is their Loyalty to you??? they dont wnat to invest in a professional modelor to make the figures but expect you to invest in their product out of what???...Loyalty??

for me it is strictly business. Make a product I want and I will buy it from you. Make a product I dont want and I will buy it from someone else it is not personal.

I don't get the whole "I can only use 1 Figure" thought process. I use all of them. I do use Daz g figures, but that is for the most part they don't have analogues with other vendors/storefronts.

If I had the equivalent of the kids & teenagers from other sources, I'd retire them. Unfortunately, no one else has stepped up to the plate.

putrdude posted at 10:35AM Wed, 21 June 2017 - #4307989

Mmmmm donutsss...no wait, about Poser.

I love Poser. I use whatever figures come with it, if they have decent apparel, which usually they don't. So which figures do? M4 and V4! So I use them.

Maybe Dawn is great and Dusk is swell too, but i don't have anything in my closet for them to wear. Also, if you do any animation and use animation files, changing figures can be catastrophic to your animation. The body parts are often named differently and soon you have a dancing pretzel.

I'm think I'm different from most of you hard core users in that I don't want to fiddle in the cloth room, or make a rigging or whatever. I just want to build the scene I see in my head as easily as I can and I don't mind spending the money to do so. Just bought more from Renderosity yesterday and my wish list keeps on growing for Poser vendors. Mostly it depends on the current project I'm working on.

I used to love Daz figures and props but when they changed, so did my opinion of them. I don't even see the sense in their business model. They want to sell items, not the program, but they don't make the items available to Poser users. Since I know they can (always did) I assume they think it's best to ignore Poser users hoping they'll switch. Okay, it's their business and I still buy the occasional item from Daz if it will work in Poser, but I'm not going to switch to DAZ and their program is free!

I also find the threads such as "is poser a dead program" to be self defeating. If you are using it, it's not dead. Seems a little "the sky is falling" to me.

Nothing is forever. I'm going to enjoy using Poser until I can't anymore. Probably buy every new version.

Of course I'm the village idiot, so take that with a large grain of salt.

And now for that donut.

I am in a fairly similar position to you in that I do not want to spend time rigging but I am spending more time in the cloth room as I now use Dawn and there are a lot of good dynamic clothes available at a very reasonable price.

I do buy from Daz when there is an item that will work in Poser but it is always props or scenes, never figures or clothes.

I understand you point regarding changes for, although I do not do animations, I was creating a story book with a V4 character and I wanted consistency. I finally moved to Dawn even though I had to rework my earlier V4 renders but you are right there are big differences. For example Dawn had a neck 1 and Neck 2 part as well as a abdomen 1 and 2, where V4 only had one. Joints on all of the toes was another change. I found expressions far easier so clearly the head is also different and it was these changes that finally convinced me to make the jump. So the changes can be a two edged sword, I stuck with V4 for a long time but if you want to progress you have to jump at some point, despite the financial cost and the time involved.

One problem is that Poser is in a difficult position for as vendors walk away there is not only less content to buy but, to some degree, it is harder to find so some people stop looking. When I started using Dawn there was little here for the figure, there still is and I have already purchased pretty well all I want from what is available here. As a result I started to visit the Market Place about once a month rather than once a day. Since the security breach I just don't visit the MP or at least I haven't since March and I don't expect that to end change any time soon. I am not alone so there are less buyers, both for Daz and Poser items but as I suspect that has had a bigger impact on Poser vendors than Daz due to there being fewer vendors. Less Vendors, Less products, less profits, less customers and so the cycle continues the spiral.

Finally , while I accept the Renderosity can not force vendors to make content for Poser I do not accept they do not have the ability to encourage more to be created if they so wanted. Mind you I may be biased as I have a similar view on their security.

If you want content for Dawn, you do have to shop at other storefronts.

OTOH, if you purchase Lyrra's Fit room magnets for Dawn & Dusk (sold right here at 'rosity), it is a 30 second process to convert an outfit.

I have dozens of V4 outfits that have never been worn by V4, but by Dawn, Pauline, Roxie, Miki, Sydney, Mariko, Jessi, et al.

The biggest problem is that with most vendors, all of their characters look alike.

ssgbryan posted at 4:17PM Wed, 21 June 2017 - #4308133

If you want content for Dawn, you do have to shop at other storefronts.

OTOH, if you purchase Lyrra's Fit room magnets for Dawn & Dusk (sold right here at 'rosity), it is a 30 second process to convert an outfit.

I have dozens of V4 outfits that have never been worn by V4, but by Dawn, Pauline, Roxie, Miki, Sydney, Mariko, Jessi, et al.

The biggest problem is that with most vendors, all of their characters look alike.

I agree with that, I do have Lyrra's fit room magnets and a large wardrobe of V4 clothes so a lot of the clothes available for Dawn I already have as such. I am also very thankful that Fabiana did a Dawn conversion for a lot of her hair styles. As you suggest you do have to shop elsewhere and again I do but it means that all of my money is diverted away from Renderosity and as I only buy for Poser that means less profit for some Poser vendors. My little bit will have little impact but if I am not alone more potential profit is lost which was the point I was trying to make.

I still think there are plenty of opportunities for Poser uses, I am just not sure that the same can be said for Poser vendors if the present trend continues. Personally I still think Renderosity has the potential to influence the situation for the better, despite the claims to the contrary, but it needs their buy in.

There is a difference between the health of Poser and the Poser vendors.

Vendors made the decision not to support modern figures.

'Rosity made the decision to not enforce their own standards for selling Poser content (content must have material mc6s, for instance).

Demanding that content be able to run on ancient versions of Poser, when both Windows and OSX are dropping support for 32-bit programs isn't the smartest business decision.

I factor in how much work I need to do to bring a Poser product into the 21st Century before I buy. When a vendor tells me they don't have time to learn the features of Poser 9 when they are making a product for Dawn, they shouldn't expect my money.

Vendors intransigence is why we have advanced features like the fitting room, Poser add-ons like HCS, and stand alone products like Texture Transformer.

Every one of them lessens the value vendors in the Poser ecosystem. All of them were made because vendors don't want to leave their comfort zone.

At some point, vendors (and 'Rosity) need to accept the fact that it isn't October 2007 anymore.

Dave-So : I wish Cigs where still a dime n I didn't need a license n plate sticker n window stickers n insurance etc etc n a car didn't cost the price of a house but if we where still back in the day ,we wouldn't have sailphones that we need are grand kids to show us how to use and are old ladies to track us on ;) Don't ya love progress

A lot of the ones that where around back in the day. Didn't go to DAZ ,They went to C4D ,Maya ,Unithy etc etc. DAZ Poser is just a plug for the main apps.

Just a personal note but I prefer realtime render engines. I have no personal use for DAZ Poser Blender for ever n a day render engines. n why a vender would have a god awful render of noise to sell there stuff with is beyond me. Wouldn't a nice render improve sales ? They do make realtime render engines for DAZ Poser Blender.

Anyways there right we've had these threads for what seems like centuries now. A thread on improving ya render with 2D . A thread on making killer community Poser characters. A thread on killer plugs for Poser. Those I haven't seen for what seems like centuries now.

ssgbryan posted at 11:53AM Thu, 22 June 2017 - #4308183

There is a difference between the health of Poser and the Poser vendors.

Vendors made the decision not to support modern figures.

'Rosity made the decision to not enforce their own standards for selling Poser content (content must have material mc6s, for instance).

Demanding that content be able to run on ancient versions of Poser, when both Windows and OSX are dropping support for 32-bit programs isn't the smartest business decision.

I factor in how much work I need to do to bring a Poser product into the 21st Century before I buy. When a vendor tells me they don't have time to learn the features of Poser 9 when they are making a product for Dawn, they shouldn't expect my money.

Vendors intransigence is why we have advanced features like the fitting room, Poser add-ons like HCS, and stand alone products like Texture Transformer.

Every one of them lessens the value vendors in the Poser ecosystem. All of them were made because vendors don't want to leave their comfort zone.

At some point, vendors (and 'Rosity) need to accept the fact that it isn't October 2007 anymore.

I can't personally vouch for some of the statements you have made, which I not to say that they are wrong, more likely that you are better informed than me. I do agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment behind your statement though.

Keep it positive guys ... you are on the edge, so I'm letting it go for now. But please ... be careful. This is informative. But some comments can be construed as software bashing by some folks ... don't want to go there.

At some point, vendors (and 'Rosity) need to accept the fact that it isn't October 2004 anymore.

There.. I went a head and fixed that for you.

Demanding that content be able to run on ancient versions of Poser, when both Windows and OSX are dropping support for 32-bit programs isn't the smartest business decision.

This problem will exist as long as the users cling to older versions. If your content only supports features of the most recent versions of poser you risk alienating a certain portion of your buyers.

Look it this forum with its Old version sub forums that still encourages poser 6 users to remain huddled in the crumbling caves of the past

And there is the problem of people having to actually $$BUY$$ the new version and possibly upgrade their hardware & OS.

These are the two major factors that are impeding forward advancement.