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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Dec 22 10:18 pm)
Subject: AHA! Some light on why POSER is NOT well received in other 3D areas.
It is since I started with organic modelling in Cinema4D that I really realised what a great job DAZ has accomplished. I mean: I can eventually create my own male and female mesh, and I can add bones etc. But this does not mean it would work for everyone. And since the days I saw that nurbs woman on Zygote's site a few years ago, and I see what can now be done with V and M3,and with SP, I say "hats off". You don't have to be Leonardo Da Vinci to be allowed to make a work of art.
I have tried prudent planning long enough. From now I'll be mad. (Rumi)
This may be summarizing what others have already said, but what the hey... The problem with Poser's acceptance is that the bulk of the images generated using it do all start to look alike after a while. Hardly anyone wants to go "under the hood," so to speak and see what Poser can do when it's not confined to the standardized beauty of Vicky. Things like the Freak are all well and good, but even now, just a couple of months after that model's release, folks are already rushing back to the one-size-fits-all image of the pretty girl with perfect makeup and hardly any clothes on. And I no longer accept the "well, it's just a hobbyist's program anyway" excuse. Face it, folks -- this program is in a serious rut, and there aren't many people out there trying to get it moving in any other direction than the vacuous pin-up. Maybe if there was a little more variety to what was generated, perhaps the hard-core professionals would see the potential for it the same way we do. But as long as we feed the cliche, then I'm afraid we have no one but ourselves to blame for seeing Poser marginalized. So yeah, if you enjoy making the pin-up images, go for it. But don't get catty about places like CGTalk when all you're doing is giving them more of the stereotype. Personally, I love going to CGTalk -- most of the technical discussion is way beyond me, but the gallery critiques, as harsh as they may be, are among the best you're gonna get because these folks really focus in on the essence of 3d imagery and what makes it work. I've posted Bryce images over there, and no one's given me the "eww, Bryce..." reply, so it's not the pricetag on the software that turns them off. Instead, I've found that if you bring something new to the table, something intruiging, something that takes whatever program you're using and pushes it a little further down the track, they show their appreciation real fast. But to take a stock mesh and add a stock texture and put it in a stock pose and then add a little postwork... you ain't gonna win any friends there.
this program is in a serious rut, and there aren't many people out there trying to get it moving in any other direction than the vacuous pin-up So, your objection is to "vacuous pin-ups"? What, exactly, would you -- personally -- rather see?
So, your objection is to "vacuous pin-ups"? No, my objection is the OVERLOAD of "vacuous pin-ups". No one's daring to take even a baby step outside that very narrow little circle, and everything -- from the users to the merchants -- pander straight to it. So what do we get? Lots and lots and lots of the same damn thing.
No, my objection is the OVERLOAD of "vacuous pin-ups". No one's daring to take even a baby step outside that very narrow little circle, and everything -- from the users to the merchants -- pander straight to it. So what do we get? Lots and lots and lots of the same damn thing. Frankly, on one level, I agree with you. On another level -- that's what sells. Look at the views for gallery "pin-ups" vs. the gallery views for beautiful landscapes. Depends on one's purpose, I would say. Does one want to be popular, or does one want to create "high art"? If I was a merchant, I would want to sell.
Ah....but there are those that create excellent art with Poser. And not to sell. I would say that Poser is what you make of it. You can create "cheap" art using 3ds, too. But no one rejects 3ds for this reason.
"Poser has its problems, significant ones even... but these threads never deal with Poser's real underlying problems."
Never is way too strong a term. Maybe "often", but not never. Heck, most of the threads I have seen even acknowledge that the compositing, posing and lighting allows for artistic expression and skill.
"na, its just because we pay 150 dollars for an entire application vs. a couple grand, and can produce good results with it. (that is entirely dependent on the artist)"
Hardly. They could spend the same $$$ at any time (the routinely spend it in plug ins and so on) and turn out arbitrary numbers of Vicki in temple poses... at least the ones with any skill could. Most of the decent ones wouldn't even need to buy Poser - just use Vicki's OBJ and buy a texture.
Compounding the ignorance of many of them with our own solves nothing. To say "bah, they jsut feel ripped off!" is just - naive (to be extremely polite).
no one rejects 3ds for this reason This is like the long-standing argument that 90% of what you see on TV is crap, but crap apparently sells enough that every TV season we see the same tired cliches in the same tired sitcoms. Then everyone says what a wasteland TV is, but no one seems all that interested in making anything more out of it. And what's the result? More crap, all dressed up with nowhere to go. The excellent art in Poser? That comes from people like David Ho, who pushes this program into the stratosphere. The rest? Pretty images, no argument there -- but to what end? So why do people reject Poser and not 3ds? Because of the nature of the 3d beast. The serious 3d folk are modellers, and they take a great deal of pride in creating something from scratch. It's their Grail. So why should we be surprised when they look at images that use a stock mesh and a stock texture and turn their nose up? For all the "well, they don't build the computers" attempts at an argument, we do have to accept that we're working at a level of 3d that's pretty facile and superficial and mono-directional, while theirs is plumbing slightly deeper and more complex stratae.
we do have to accept that we're working at a level of 3d that's pretty facile and superficial and mono-directional, while theirs is plumbing slightly deeper and more complex stratae
In my case, personally, I would never deny this. I don't do this for a living. I do it for fun only.
*****This is like the long-standing argument that 90% of what you see on TV is crap, but crap apparently sells enough that every TV season we see the same tired cliches in the same tired sitcoms. Then everyone says what a wasteland TV is, but no one seems all that interested in making anything more out of it.
And what's the result? More crap, all dressed up with nowhere to go.*****
And who will be the authority? The authority that will make all of the decisions, and that will enforce "quality" on the rest of us?
Yes, a lot of it is garbage. But -- people seem to like garbage.
The excellent art in Poser? That comes from people like David Ho, who pushes this program into the stratosphere. The rest? Pretty images, no argument there -- but to what end?
To what end are ANY pretty images? Or ugly images, for that matter? To what end are ANY images at all?
Poser is a tool, just like any other tool. And a tool can be used for either good or ill. But don't reject the tool merely because someone else doesn't use the tool in the right way.
Elitism is always a great temptation. It feels so GOOD to be superior!!!!!!
"Compounding the ignorance of many of them with our own solves nothing. To say "bah, they jsut feel ripped off!" is just - naive (to be extremely polite). " well, it may sound naive after you miscontrue and misunderstand everything I said... but after seeing this argument oh, 100+ times by now... its true in far too many cases, and especially these cases. The folks that command the bucks and work in the industry don't care to bother with this argument, as they know Poser has its uses, its just not for everything. Most of them have used Poser for quick humans in scenes, I know many that have. I know a professional animator and graphic artist who works with Maya that has the most gorgeous modified P4 Dork rigged up in Maya that you ever saw. Looks better than Mike 2 and 3 even. I think many of the hobbyists that work with Max feel ripped off, especially when they see a Poser-derived scene that looks better than they can do. But I emphasise... the reason it looks better is because ... NOT ONLY ONE PERSON DID THE PIC! Its the same with games and movies... its never just one person! They utilise bought content and hire more than one person to do the work. That's my actual point. I think of the artist of a 3d work in Poser as more of a director. They are in charge of the entire look, the way the work communicates to the viewer. It is what the work communicates and expresses, that is the real point. Naked Vickies in temples express nothing, but its not a fault of the software, its a fault of the 'artiste'... put that blame where the blame belongs.
JoeyAristophanes ehhh some do take babysteps out of the sex scene. {I do enjoy making pinup but that is because it is a personal favorite and I do it in traditional mediums as well} I did the hideouse beauty set...Pharie has been doing some wonderful work not very vicki-esque...there are so many artists out there doing things out of the sex pinup scene and pretty woman with makeup scene. the thing is ...those dont get alot of attention. I think the Naked vickis in temples come to mind because there is so many of them but even those are different from each other..just like all the medevil dressed woman with wistful looks and pretty settings. they all are different. art doesnt have to sells something per se.it is a persons expression. I have seen poser work that made my eyes near come out of my head I had to check several times to even make sure it WAS poser. {then again I have seen other apps used and was like..erm..oooooooooooook} poser has its flaws...yup it does but when you think about that..the short commings..and see the things that some artists can do with it..then you realise it is a tool. one that is better in some hands then the other. it is a tool. so why then the dismissal of poser? GUH ...I am going for some strong turkish coffee and pray I get out of the artist block I am in...ohh but then agian if it was all cookie cutter slam bam thank you ma'am pic in a click proggy ....artist block wouldnt matter ...would it....
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
I do it for fun only. So do a lot of the folk at CGTalk, surprisingly enough. Sure, there's a lot of hardcore professionals at CGT, but there's far more amateurs who play with this stuff for the sheer hell of it. >> And who will be the authority? The authority that will make all of the decisions, and that will enforce "quality" on the rest of us? Irrelevant, sorry. It's not about "authority"; it's not about someone being an "arbiter". It's about the sheer OVERLOAD of a single theme, expressed in dizzying repetition, to the point where no style prevails because there is no style in the first place -- look at the Hot 20: almost everything there looks like it came from the same artist because it's all the same style. Poser is capable of far, far more -- but you have to make the personal choice to delve or not. Most folks won't -- BFD. >> It feels so GOOD to be superior! So who's really being superior here? Us or them? Somehow I sorta think that's one of those questions we really would prefer not to answer because the answer might not be the one we'd really like to hear.
The button? Just center it on your 'puter screen and then ... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ... push it and ... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ... see what happens! ;=]
Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"
cheers,
dr geep ... :o]
edited 10/5/2019
I'd like to flip the script, so to speak. Could it be that Poser is really more powerful than point-click-load-render? Have you/we/us/them really tapped into its power? Is there some tool, script, way of doing something that would push this app over? Think: Who ever would have thought to use Poser's transparency maps with hair? Z-Toons? "Fake" HDRI lighting? Who's really fully tapped into .CR2 hacking? JCM? ECM, etc? Remote control deformers? Animation? Could it be those "Modellers" see the potential in Poser and they've become leary, afraid of the future? Have we, because we're just "hobbyists" (Oh, dang. There's goes Anton screaming ;) )become afraid of the future? I think this may be a different dead horse.
"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld
Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD
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Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)
Just wait until I do the same with my itty bitty Carrara, once my textures are finished ;) Its renderer is considered one of the better ones, and it doesn't cost a fortune to buy. Poser can't render an image like this because its renderer sucks wind. I haven't rendered a completed image in Poser in a coons age.
Content Advisory! This message contains nudity
Attached Link: http://www.zs3d.com/prodhome.asp?id=14
Nudity in the link, and they are P5 renders. With good textures, any model can look real.
On the argument that Poser work made of purchased components is not "art": I realize no one's going to pay attention to this, but I'm going to say it anyway, so I can get it in print, save it to my harddrive somewhere, and just copy and paste it the next time this vampiric (undying and energy-sucking) conversation comes up. Collage is by definition an art. (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dicitonary, 10th Edition). Thus all arguments that anything is not "art" because it is an assembly of "other's" components are invalid.
So do a lot of the folk at CGTalk, surprisingly enough. Sure, there's a lot of hardcore professionals at CGT, but there's far more amateurs who play with this stuff for the sheer hell of it.
And I hope that they enjoy what they do.
*****>>And who will be the authority? The authority that will make all of the decisions, and that will enforce "quality" on the rest of us?
Irrelevant, sorry. It's not about "authority"; it's not about someone being an "arbiter". It's about the sheer OVERLOAD of a single theme, expressed in dizzying repetition, to the point where no style prevails because there is no style in the first place -- look at the Hot 20: almost everything there looks like it came from the same artist because it's all the same style. Poser is capable of far, far more -- but you have to make the personal choice to delve or not. Most folks won't -- BFD.*****
Irrelevant? Oh, really?
Perhaps, just perhaps.....the Hot 20 are what they are due to popular tastes. If one does not approve of the things to be found in the Hot 20, then one is always welcome to say so.
My statement concerning authority stands. Which item(s) among the Hot 20 should be removed, in your opinion?
*****>> It feels so GOOD to be superior!
So who's really being superior here? Us or them? Somehow I sorta think that's one of those questions we really would prefer not to answer because the answer might not be the one we'd really like to hear.*****
That's always a risk.
But, I'll take my chances.
The next time that I see a thread started here about those sub-artists over at cgtalk, I'll agree with you.
The next time that I see a thread started here about those sub-artists over at cgtalk, I'll agree with you But you already have. :) >> My statement concerning authority stands. Which item(s) among the Hot 20 should be removed, in your opinion? None. But accepting something for its ability to maintain the status quo is not the same as thinking maybe, just maybe, we could be pushing this proggie a little harder than we currently are. Post 76 makes an excellent point: that by shoving and prodding and pushing things that maybe weren't meant to be shoved, we keep pushing the boundaries back. But it's ironic that for all the pushing and prodding, it still winds up being yet another stereotypical image of a Caucasian woman with long legs and perfect makeup and not enough clothing. Then folks get all upset when someone points out this rather unavoidable fact; still, when a technique as potentially versatile as transparency maps gets used to crank out version 2,897 of lace undies and version 6,940 of long tresses in sexy disarray... well, hell, talk about wasted potential, sorry. We haven't come anywhere close to realizing what this program can do, because we get to a certain point, and then we stop, waiting for folks like Geep or Catharina to break down the walls for us and show us how to make things that no one thought possible. Sorry. It just gets really frustrating sometimes. I know, I know -- it's the market. The market wants fantasy armour and slinky lingerie and impossible high heels and textures with immaculate mascara. The market wants page after page of interchangable, collect-them-all-amaze-your-friends-at-parties pin ups. I guess I'm getting to the point where it's all just a frigging bore. Hell, 90% of TV may be what the market wants, but that doesn't mean I'm required to like it. :)
my post linked to a black woman texture with long legs and no makeup and well... not enough clothing. But she looked real ;) for what its worth, I've seen people bitching about cgtalk snobbery over on the Zbrush forum site too, and that program, though a lowend price, is used by highend professionals most frequently to do character sculpting and morphing. It appears to me that cgtalk people just like bitching when the program costs under 1k and can't adjust to change in anyway, shape or form. I can only imagine how these threads are going to look if Daz Studio ever makes it to its potential, and gives people the opportunity to render far more accurately animated figures complete with weightmapping, just like the highend profi apps. Going to be ugly... I guess.
It appears to me that cgtalk people just like bitching when the program costs under 1k and can't adjust to change in anyway, shape or form With all due respect, I can't agree. I've had good experience over there. Yeah, you get the attitudious jerks, but that's no different from this place FTTT. CGTalk is really about taking 3d to a higher level, regardless of the software -- even Poser has known to surprise them on occasion, but it's an application of Poser that pushes what the proggie can do. If that's snobbery, well, okay... but I don't see it that way.
hmm, did you read what I said, the Zbrush people have problems with many of them too. Now, I don't know where you've been looking ;) but there's not a whole lot of naked Caucasian girls exported from Poser posted over there, its more a land of monster madness and Lord of the Rings fans... with people doing their own modelling and morphing. Even WetaDigital modellers (Lord of the Rings fame) post there on occasion. Some CGtalk folks are ok, but the attitudes one runs into if anything diverges from how they think the world should be ordered tends to meet with some resistance. A conservative lot over there.
This reminds me of prepuberty discussions of the kind "mine is longer than yours" - the workflow and the results counts. I use any program or platform which is useful for the the things I am aiming at. I like this discussions for annother reason - it shows me how easily people get divided into blind followers for ideas and that they, for no obvious reasons, would start to fight and give their lives, even for a 3d program. My advice: grow up and face reality
I agree, MungoPark. BTW... nice gallery... you do some nice work with Poser. actually the original discussion started with a guy in the 3ds forum pissed off that naked Caucasian Poser pinups get all the attention, it had nothing to do with the program, its abilities and shortcomings. Mostly because I'm sure... the fellow has never used it. It had nothing to do with why 3ds is better than Poser. And yes, 3ds is better than Poser in a lot of ways. Just not in price. I prefer tools that are high quality and affordable to the average user, and therefore accessible for average people to explore art and express their vision, no matter what that vision may be. I am decidedly not an elitist. I see no reason to spend more money on an application than I do on my hardware. I personally do sexy pinup but I get more involved with them and post them at sites that allow them, much of my work goes in a decidedly ... Olivia DeBerardinis sort of vein and hence is too extreme for this website. I personally find some extremely creative work in that genre. You just can't pursue it fully over here... and it really does look stupid when you see a Naked Vickie in a temple with a sword... where you're wondering what the hell is she naked for? But then that's because people are pretty much limited to that by the tos here, too. Implied sexual content is forbidden by the tos, which can be interpreted pretty conservatively to include nearly any romantic situation when it involved nudity.
grow up and face reality Well, IMHO, the "reality" is that this thematic mono-direction is what created an environment that led to incidents like the whole BMO and Orion flap and countless more like them, not to mention the many more we know will be uncovered in months to come. That's just as much a reality as whining that naked breasts get all the gallery hits. After all, consider: when was the last time we saw this kind of chaos erupt over a Michael texture?
and what does that have to do with this thread, anyway? Those flaps have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of the thread. Orion's mistake was pretty minor and BMO was a classic case of 'taking the shortcut' to fame and fortune. Which happens everywhere, happened more times than I can count when I did gaming stuff. Its not isolated to Poser.
Attached Link: http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/contests/dec-02/winners/tutorials/model/Guldoni_Dav
here is the link too the tutorial that i promised yesterday. i know that it is for lightwave, but wings is quite similar and FREE and i'd love to see some of you guys try this. joeya makes some good points. folks who don't use poser probably look down on it due to the stereotypes of poser images...spawned by our own gallery. i like cg talk. folks are harsh there, but it is a good place for learning stuff. and, i can't help but grinning when i think of any 3d heavyweight browsing our own poser forum and lifting eyebrows at threads like....HELP MY VICKI DISAPPEARS WHEN I TRY AND PUT CLOTHES ON HER. chuckle...it could be inferred by looking at the gallery that that question, posed so often has not been correctly answered. back to serious....poser is capable of rendering a variety of things...animals, scenery, you know, the sort of meshes you see at cgtalk. and you have a vast supply of free and for sale meshes available. yet, we get nekkid vicki ad nauseum in our galleries. if folks want to be taken serious by other 3d sites, seems to me they should try another tack and render something BESIDES vicki. otherwise, don't complain if cgtalk folk don't feel like digging through thousands of vicki renders to find a bit of treasure. that's hard work!!!
I could care less what a few cgtalk hobbyists think, and yes... a great majority are also hobbyists with a deeper pocketbook. I enjoy many parts of the site, mostly the 2d software parts where its not populated by a bunch of sex allergic boys, giving tips that actually help me in my postwork of images. A great many people are making money off the Poser based pinups, and pinups in all media have been popular as long as there's been art, even Bougereau's beauties were 19th century pinup, just in oil instead of Poser. I refuse to apologise for my choice of genre, one that I find more profitable and enjoyable. One should do what they enjoy in their personal art, and tell the rest of the world to shove it up their backside. Seriously. Unless its commercial art you're doing for a client and you're being paid to produce art to their interests, I see no reason to pander to a few vocal people that don't share the same interests as myself. And lets face it, 3d art in general is full of either fantasy art, scifi, or pinups. Just like every other artistic media, including traditional ones. I can paint just as well as a lot of these guys can model. I can morph the meshes very quickly in Zbrush with my Wacom and get a very different look to a model. All one has to do is compare the Freak to V3 and yes... realise they don't look the same at all. Same mesh.
*****>> The next time that I see a thread started here about those sub-artists over at cgtalk, I'll agree with you
But you already have. :)*****
Where? I've yet to see anyone suggest that the artists at cgtalk are "less than" -- merely because they use a different program.
I have, however, seen them criticised for their attitude towards OUR program of choice.
90% of TV may be what the market wants, but that doesn't mean I'm required to like it. :)
On this one, I agree with you. Neither you, nor I, have to like it.
ok so the point is not so much whether poser art is art..but whether poser is a viable tool....or is it that there are too many naked vickis in temples for poser to be taken seriously??? Poser is like any other "tool" in the right hands it is magic in the wrong hands it is like fingernails on the chalkboard. naked pinups are most definatly art. There are ahuge amount of artists with very acceptable High society galleries of nothing BUT pin up work. just because you do not like it JoeyAristophanes doesnt mean it isnot art or not worthy. as with any "art" there is a difference between "pinups" and just naked woman laying around. if that makes any sence.
https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/
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rubbish NEFTIS: your post in #8....man she's hot!