aabrownjr : To me renderosity has become little more than a cg porn site. Don't be a part of the problem, be a part of the solution. Remember 3d is an art so lets see some artwork. With poser many of the images look so similar because every one is using the same model your job as an artist is to differentiate your work and 9 times out of 10 that means going to Photoshop and doing a lot of touchups. Ok this was posted on an image i looked at in the poser gallery and the shear arrogance of it got my back up. Far as i see it the problems renderosity has have more to do with arrogant, self righteous over thinkers than people who are trying to learn the tricks of creating with poser. Our JOB is to create. It is not up to anyone here or anywhere else to tell us what we should or should not create. Art is in the eyes of the artist not the viewer. If the viewer happens to be pleased by what he or she sees than thats a bonus for the artist, if the viewer is displeased with what he or she sees than by all means they have the right to voice and opinion and offer critisism. What the viewer does not have the right to do is instruct the artist on how to think and what to create. It is arrogant to assume the role if instructor and tell someone what they should be creating and especially that what they have done isn't art. That's just my 2 cents worth.

could you please provide a link to gallery picture that the post in question is in. Will check it out.

yup sorry http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=598050

Thanks got it posted the commment to Mods to see what can be done. Thanks for the heads up.:O)

I'm not quite sure it's such a horrible comment. Perhaps I'm just not in the correct mood to get upset. I'm not sure what the commentor meant but to me, it seems to say, "Hey, guy, you know what? Lots of people can do the same old stuff with Poser and the same old models. Why not get a little more creative? Why don't YOU try to stand out among the crowd that does the 'same ole thing'?" Now, IF that is somewhat the meaning of what the commentor was trying to convey, I don't think it's something to get very upset about. Of course, I could be wrong. (yeah, like that's never happened!)

On my recent posting:

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=598062&Start=1&Artist=Argon18&ByArtist=Yes

that same person posted this as a comment on mine:

aabrownjr: Needs alot of work. Just remember this is not a porn site it is an "supoes" to be an art gallery. Like I keep saying time and agin many of the comment people leave don't realy help the artist. Many are like good job, and that fine it the image is good but in to many caeses they aren't. It's fine to nave nude figures if you use them in the right way.Remember 3d is an art so lets see some artwork. With poser many of the images look so similar because every one is using the same model your job as an artist is to differentiate your work.

Virtually identical to that post you made mention of, voodoo. IMHO, spamming people with the same comment is not part of the solution either. Especially since thats a biased opinion of pornography. Where was the helpful comment on how to improve the image? There was no positive suggestions on what I could do to make the image better, just a diatribe on personal taste.

Argon

You know what get me about that comment "Remember 3d is an art so lets see some artwork... 9 times out of 10 that means going to Photoshop and doing a lot of touchups" ? For one, I consider myself a 3D artist, and I find it ironic that this guy has the nerve to suggest that you must use 2D tools to get decent 3D art! Postwork, BAH! A real 3D artist does tons of PRE-work and then you don't need postwork, and you have earned the right to call your work REAL 3D art and not pseudo-photoshop-3D! So I'd take anything else this guy has to say with a grain of salt. Just my perspective folks, don't slam me. 2D art is great and I admire the talents of people who do amazing things in Photoshop, but to me that AIN'T 3D work, and I don't like being told that it is.

looks like he's on a spam crusade, I saw 3 others with that same comment today. http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=598119&Start=1&Artist=shadow%5Fdancer&ByArtist=Yes http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=598064&Start=1&Artist=Goddess&ByArtist=Yes http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=598099&Start=1&Artist=purdon&ByArtist=Yes I doubt he's even noticing the pics, just wants to rant about his own agenda. Seems to be a lot of morality fallout from the scandal at the superbowl

Personally, I agree with the fact that Renderosity is a bit too suggestive. I wish people would get the point that you could do so much more with Poser, and not always use it for crass and juvenile "art". It disappoints me to see all these CG resource sites turned into amusement parks for 14-year olds, displaying junk and stuff that I don't want to have anything to do with. I'm sure SOME people out there agree with me.

Ochre i'm sure people do agree with you, my point is (for example) why should a 14 year old not be proud of his naked vicki creation? and 2 what gives you the right to tell him that it is no good? The solution for you is very simple. Dont look at the images that you suspect contain nudes or creations not to a level of your liking. But as a artist, of many mediums, I do not appreciate someone telling me what i can and cannot create, or that what i do is not up to their "level". I dont like Picassos work myself but i'm not going to tell people who create in a similar stlye that they are wrong. It's not my place. And renderosity is not full of juvenile or crass art. Such a thing doesnt exist if you have a open mind.

Posted on my new image also. http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=598079&Start=1&Artist=laurieannp1&ByArtist=Yes "aabrownjr - Textures look to low res and the background looks to low res as well. Needs better lighting also." I agree I need to work on my lighting.I'm a newbie,just started at the end of Dec:) But the texture I used was Miss April by Morris and the outfit and background textures are from Daz. Don't know how I can improve those low res textures LOL

I dont see a problem with what he said, and I dont think the mods should pull the comment. You post a nekkid lady looking like an inflatable, prepare for comments; the comments posted by this guy arent so bad - he is constructive in that he does tip on how to make something look better, and that maybe you shouldnt use a standard, very recognisable model. shrug ~S

i dont think it necessarily should be removed either. he's not quite trolling, just being beligerent. As far as i'm concerned if you check the comments box then take what you get. My problem is with the holier than thou attitude some people display when commenting. Constructive critisism is one thing, passing on moral commandments and belittling others work is another.

::snickers at the incredible irony of this entire thread.

But THAT as well is a matter of perception - I find it rather conceited that all art is art if you keep an open mind, for instance, but that's my opinion, and I don't get my hackles up about it. I dont think the guy who's posting this has evil intents, or even holier than thou ones - I genuinely think he or she would like to see other things than a nekkid vickie in a subset of poses and surroundings. Again - it's all in how you chose to interpret it, and I don't find the post belittling or morally commanding - I find it urging people to think a bit outside the defined (DAZ)-box. And if it's not a vanilla soft-core site, explain all the splendid mammaries on display ~S

I know it's not a good guide..but how many pics has he put up?..;) I dunno..being an artist means developing a thick skin, becuase good or bad, it's a lot easier to diss art than create it. (must be why I'm a PC technician..;) there are some folks out there with attention-deficit syndrome (i.e., they think they don't get enough of it..;) remember the good reviews..just accept criticism if it's constructive..it's the only kind I ever leave..;)

But how is that helpful when you don't suggest alternatives or positive things to help promote it? I too get the fine sense of irony about the thread. What would you offer as something "outside the box" that would be better? There has been nudity throughout the whole history of art so it being on display here is no suprise.

I think most of the images in the art gallery are just point an click art.. including the stuff I have posted. I'm not any better.. It's sort of like giving a crayon to a two year old and asking them to draw.. sure what a two year will produce is technically art.. but with out much thought or skill behind it. most of the time it will be just junk. That's pretty much what we have here. Most of the stuff in the gallery is just plain awful, there's no thought or skill. just point click pose and render.. I'm not saying that all point click pose and render stuff is junk.. some people can provoke emotion.. with a quick work.. most can't... I really think you need to master the tools of the trade... lighting.. shadows.. poses.. expressions... etc.. before you can call it art... because if you don't it just distracts from the message.. Example... I love to sing.. you don't have to be a singer to recognize the fact that I have a awful voice...it's obvious to anyone who listens to me.. I'm all over the place.. I'm flat and I can't sing on key. so no matter how beautiful the message in the song might be.. my lack of technique has ruins the song.. with a few lessons and some vocal coaching.. I'm sure I could improve... will I be a great singer?.. probably never.. same applies with most of the artists in renderosity. I'm sure if they learned some techniques... read a few books on lighting..etc... they would be better 3d artists... and there fore less annoying to look at..

If I outlined how the image could be improved as a comment, it'd be taken as an attack as well, been there, done that, had some irate mammary fan on my hands who just wouldnt let go. I am probably not the only one who's had that experience - so now I only comment on images I think rock. To be honest, I stumbled into this thread in the belief it was a follow-up to the seneca semi-brouhaha ;-) As for the nude in art - they sure as hell werent prebought, preposed, and rendered in bad lighting. I dont have a problem with nudes, I have a problem with needless nudity in an image to get clicks - and to compare the generic rendo nude with Zorn, Rubens, Titian or other famous paintings is stretching the boundaries of the realms of art to places it's never been before. I am not sure its being stretched to a good place, to be honest. I also dont think that one needs to provide super-specific tips to improving an image - That'd be handholding or tutoring, but to take the image in question: 1) skin looks too metallic 2) teeth are too white and glaring - they could use some postwork 3) if there are shadows on the skin, why doesnt the chain cast a shadow ? 4) her mouth could probably do with another pose: shelooks like an inflatable ready to get on the job 5) the hair could have been softened a bit, and some stray strands here and there. 6) the punch from the arrow would have bent her more backwards. 7) The eyes are too flat 8)And I am not sure if she is wet or just drenched in Ambre Solaire Thats just top off my head... And I concur with Alamanos ~S

Clothes are tough to do in 3D, so that explains a lot of the nudity. :O) Also, in my experience, the people who post the most regular and harshest criticisms either don't have anything posted at all or their work is seriously lacking.

Artists have no right to create art. Critics have no right to critique it. These are not rights. They are simply abilities. Live where art is subject to the whim and will of others, and ya get a hint of that. BUT (nudity) Artists will create, and critics will criticize. Artists are competitive, as well, and they will easily dismiss the work of someone else who chllenges them or isn't within their particular realm of work. Art is not defined well among many folks. I'm an admitted prude. I don't mind looking at pin-ups, as long as they meet my aesthetic guidelines. Being a woman, and one who has, in the past, used her own "splendid mammaries" (love that term...) for support of her children, I tend to view things a little off center. What this person is doing, that offends some people, is that they are changing the message of the image -- and all art has messages within it, even if that message is as simple as "look ma, ain't it pretty?". Artists want something of that message conveyed to those who see it or read it or hear it. This posting destroys that message. Yes, he does give some comments, but no, they are not entirely helpful, as helpful comments generally will provide some sort of instruction. These are dismissive and distracting. sorta like this forum thread. hey, you know what -- I just realized I've never done a naked vicki in a temple with a sword pic. Dang -- I gotta get busy....

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=499774&Start=1&Artist=spinner&ByArtist=Yes This is the exact reason people dont comment how to improve stuff on images - some idiot goes on a bender because they need to prove a point - and pulls down the ranking in a fit of pique - unable to tell the difference between a discussion and a minute egos unable to differentiate between good and bad art. Reasoning ? This user is in the thread, would never have looked me up if I wasnt posting an opinion in line with his or hers, and the comment was proving a point, not critique. Angry ? No Sore ? no Care ? nope - he won me a bet on who'd be trolling :-) ~S

Oops - keyboard-itis; if I wasn't = if I was - sorry for the confusion :-) ~S

Actually it was both, proving a point that it doesn't have to be nudity or someone that is just starting out using Poser to be able to have the same things wrong with it you mentioned. If you look you'll find all those things I mentioned in your pic. My problem was that aabrownjr was spamming the same comment in at least 4 different pics, so how was his personal taste relevant to them? At least my critique was about your pic. There is usually a learning curve in everyone's experience with art, they start out working on some aspects and move through others as they evolve. You see a lot of the same motifs and ppl use a lot of the same models because they're available for Poser. I noticed you using the Micheal figure that eveyone uses it's what they do with it that counts. I've seen those wings used in a whole lot of pics also, does that really detract from the pic? My own experience is to try to mention things I like about the pic and if there are some things that could be improved then give some solutions that might fix whatever probs there are with it. What does "shelooks like an inflatable ready to get on the job" help to make the pic better?

Well artists do grow with feedback since it is a form of communication and I did just get an example of what I consider to be a "helpful" comment like it says above the comment box. "My only comment to improve would be to have found the Hubble pic of the actual constellation as your background. The NASA Astronomy Picture of the Day Archive is the place to look." There is something I can actually use to make the pic better since it would be more appropriate to the theme of Gemini I was going for.

Ok - then I think you should have posted in less of a fit of pique - That was childish, and to be honest - if you looked me up a bit more, you should have seen that its an image that is in continuous work, I also find it fascinating that someone with your Poserskills still hasnt answered me on how to improve my lighting - lighting is always a bitch, see. Stating that she looks like an inflatable ready to get on the job is meant to convey the fact that the person who made the image actually may want to work on the mouth - I understand that what is meant to be conveyed is suprise and agony - but the mouth is too round - it just looks plastic and like an inflatable. I am sorry if you do not find that helpful - but to be honest, people have different ways of communicating, mine tends to be abrupt and somewhat arrogant - people dont trust me when I gush, see ;-), but I try to be objective. However - stating that something looks -wrong - or in a certain manner, is a prod to the artist to look at something with new eyes, a comment, or constructive critique, as this thread proves, is a very subjective thing, and I really dont think anyone should have to provide tutorials on how to do things - clarifications if asked, most definitely, but not more than that. Nine out of ten times, its not a personal attack. If you're going to post art - be ready to take the heat from people who dont share your vision, or who think its crap. I wasnt aware that your gemini image had gotten the same treatment, and that you therefore probably were a bit sore. I'd like to add that the ONE image in my gallery thats had the most hits, is a nekkid vickie, btw, which was meant as a joke. Ynsaen - I hear you on the "mom -look what I made" thing. Its just that it all looks the same :-( Now - couch, tea, book :-) ~S

I don't know, I think most of the time With poser many of the images look so similar because every one is using the same model your job as an artist is to differentiate your work is a somewhat valid comment. I skim through the galleries and I do get tired of cross-eyed or doll-eyed Vickies standing around vacantly mostly nude usually with a weapon and in a place of worship or some lovely D&M creation. Some of the images can be beautiful, but there's something missing. A spark of life? It is difficult to say. I don't think his comments deserve to be erased. He hasn't 'crossed' the line.

I don't get it...if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. If you put an image up expect that some folks won't like it and get over it. Sheeesh. So if someone doesn't like your art it means they aren't allowed to make a comment? Marque

But doesn't help solve the prob does it? Spamming the same comment does nothing to get new pics since most ppl start out with the base models. Then it becomes more about the comments and less about the art. If they included some helpful solutions to get something different then that might solve it, but are they going to give all the ppl that start out with new figures? If a spark of life is missing, give some suggestions of thing they could do that would put it in

So whats stopping you tweaking the base models til it hurts ? Thats what you have morphs and magnets, freestuff and merchants for - the tools are there, use them. I can agree with things becoming about the comment and not the art - but thats only IF YOU LET IT You cannot dictate how people communicate to you, unless your next image specifically stated how you want critique. Most people listen to that. Having said that, tonight (my time, anyway) you proved to the entire forum why people don't post helpful comments - they want to keep rendo gnats with an axe to grind out of their own galleries, and to avoid forum shitfights should they, heaven forbid, not communicate in a manner acceptable to such people. Posting an image at rendo does not automatically mean you have no right not to get offended. ~S

Saying, "This isn't good, that isn't good," isn't a helpful comment. Saying, "I think if you tried it this way, you'll like the results better," is a helpful comment.

I have just decided not to send in any of my renderings....

"I have just decided not to send in any of my renderings...." Don't do that. Post your work. Who gives a shit if somebody doesn't like it? If you like the work you turn out, that should be shield enough against the slings and arrows. :) I can tell you from personal experience that this place is stuffed full of good people who will offer great advice. FWIW, I don't think the gent who inspired this thread is trolling or spamming. I think he's way off beam on a lot of things, but hey, it's a big world out there and there's room enough for all kinds of opinions. The question you should be asking yourself is "Do I believe in myself enough to want to create images for others to see?" You should be answering "yes" to that, by the way. :) It's like stepping on stage; you know for a damn fact there are people there who will love you, there are others who hate your guts, and yet others who really couldn't care less. This place is not just about ego stroking and a nice warm room to hang up your pictures. It's more like being a pavement artist. You'll get some passers by who will stop, admire your skills, maybe say something nice and then move on. If you're lucky they may look out for you later. Others will never even stop to glance at the hard work you put into your pictures. And there will always be the ones who will try to belittle you, tear you down and ridicule your work. So what? Why did you make your images anyhow? Did you do it to be loved? To seek approval? Or do you do it because it seemed like a good idea at the time? I hope to hell it was the latter, because that's the only way you can make anything resembling art. Render, post and be damned (to paraphrase). It's the only way to fly.

"Saying, "This isn't good, that isn't good," isn't a helpful comment. Saying, "I think if you tried it this way, you'll like the results better," is a helpful comment. " True, but not everyone's communication skills are up to speed. If someone posts a critique that you don't like, look at your image again to see if it's a valid critique. If you don't feel it is, then ignore it. If it is, learn as much as you can about that specific aspect and try again and keep trying. I hate everything I post 5 minutes after I've posted it and would like to redo every image in my gallery and delete the old. I keep it up so that when I got back on some of my older work, I can see what I've learned about lighting, textures, etc.

"I hate everything I post 5 minutes after I've posted it and would like to redo every image in my gallery and delete the old." Ding! Wrong answer. Why on earth should you be hating it? If it's good enough to post then it's a valid statement of where you were at artistically. Leave it be. We can all do something better, more "production" or whatever. It's how you are as an artist; you feel you can do something that will produce a masterpiece. And maybe you're right. That masterpiece could well be your next image. Or maybe not. Keep chasing the illusion and you will produce art. All you have to do is tell the truth in your images. On the other hand... I'd say the same to Dali (my hero); Yo, Salv! Tis just a picture, ya know?

"Don't do that. Post your work. Who gives a shit if ..." Well said, SamT! Heed some of that advice, diolma. What he says is true...but post the image here in the forum if you really want help. The gallery comments sport a certain, how shall I put it, unwritten law on just why comments are solicited. (well, in my opinion).

If you look hard enough, you could find something wrong with every render in the gallery, but why would you want to. Why not enjoy the image as it was intended. Sometimes I think it is a language barrier, things are read into the statement that was not ment in translation. Yet, repeating the same veiw over and over on every image doesn't fall in this category. I remember my first image I uploaded. I asked for an honest opinion and got it. Was my face red, I was so upset, who do you think you are to say that. They were right, nothing said was in harmful way, it all help. I keep that render in my gallery to remind me how I started and to read the review. There are so many tips for improvement on that image that I check for now on all my renders. BTW, trolls have thier uses. Think of all the extra views the image gets when you have one. Just don't let it get you down, it takes all the fun out of it.

I'm not saying this guy should be censored. And i'm not saying critisism is bad. He critisized my work, and while his tone leaves alot to be desired some of his points were valid. I checked the comment box i'll live with the results. I'm also not saying that every comment needs to be flowery and full of praise..the hot 20 is a infuriating example of cliques and circles of friends running amok. What got my back up is the judgemental tone of the post. "To me renderosity has become little more than a cg porn site. Don't be a part of the problem, be a part of the solution. Remember 3d is an art so lets see some artwork" or "Needs alot of work. Just remember this is not a porn site it is an "supoes" to be an art gallery." is arrogant and insulting to the artist, and totally uncalled for.

You should post your work, just don't get in a tizzy if someone makes a rude comment. I think if someone has a problem with the way something looks they should make a constructive comment. If they don't just ignore them and keep on working on what you like to do. Even if it's a nekid Vickie in a temple, if it's yours and you are proud of it post it. Marque

Hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue. --La Rochefoucauld ::laughs as the pot calls the kettle black

Recognise the cunning man not by the corpses he pays homage to but by the living writers he conspires against with the most shameful weapon, Silence, or the briefest review. Edward Dahlberg (1900-1977) Asking a working writer what he thinks about critics is like asking a lamp-post what it feels about dogs. Christopher Hampton (b. 1946) In reality, the world have payed too great a compliment to critics, and have imagined them men of much greater profundity than they really are. Henry Fielding (1707-54) Though by whim, envy, or resentment led, They damn those authors whom they never read. Charles Churchill (1731-64) The art of the critic in a nutshell: to coin slogans without betraying ideas. The slogans of an inadequate criticism peddle ideas to fashion. Walter Benjamin (1892-1940) It is wrong to be harsh with the New York critics, unless one admits in the same breath that it is a condition of their existence that they should write entertainingly about something which is rarely worth writing about at all. Raymond Chandler (1888-1959)

The indignation of the generic forum gnat over a perceived slight is proportional to the ego and lack of artistic merit; The worse the artist, the bigger the noise. ~Spinner, (1967- ) Actually, people, I am off to amuse myself somewhere else; I am going to do a google on mammary memory, and have fun at the site that provides it - it's more challenging than the mammaries on display here ;-) ~S

excellent quotes Arg...I think thats pretty much the final word on on these self-appointed "critics". Of course opinions are like you know what...everyone has one. It's hilarious how ppl love to bash other ppl's galleries but when it happens to them its a big CRISIS. oh the drama!

Now that I have read this entire thing I guess I would fall into the category of "be constructive" comments. I have been a member here for 1 year this month have only been posting going on 5 months. Certainly wasn't making any comments for quite some time since I had no clue and when I did start to open my mouth I made sure I was specific as to why I thought something was amiss in the picture. And yes I have got the whats up, this doesn't look right since I've been posting but now I have something to go on and be aware of in my next post. I have several that need to be reworked on minor/major details, will I fix them probably not as they serve as a reminder of where I've been and what to avoid and to remember when constructing the next picture. So leave a comment or not that's fine, leave a comment with thoughts of missing elements or improvements that's fine. Come in with nothing but hack and slash on your mind with no real point or specific suggestion about the picture just going off topic, sorry not going to pay you much attention. You will get an IM from me asking diplomatically what the issue is and why are you in an uproar. But beyond that sorry don't have the time to play that game. I'm here to get better at this form of art not debate what constitutes art or even if I am a hack at it or not. I do this because I like it, I enjoy it and it is good therapy for me. So if I please you and my friends at my day job (graveyard shift) with my posts whether they be nude or not, male or female or even have a reason for creating the image in the first place beyond the fact that this is where my subconscious took me. So much the better and I do thank you and if there is something that you think might look or make it look better, I'll listen. So I prefer that the soapbox diatribes stay in the garage and instead let's talk about the picture not ones take on life the universe and everything. Because in the long run is that relevant to improving ones work?

If the picture is elizas dead then it doesnt look like pornography to me...

This message was move to OT as it doesn't deal with the Poser Forum. SndCastie Renderosity Coordinator

Yawwwwn...heard it all before, kids.

While there is some truth to the idea that "art is in the eye of the creator", the simple fact is that not everybody here is blessed with the lofty aspirations of being an Artiste; the majority (at least based on what I've seen the past few years) are geeky, horny 15-year-olds with little or no interest in "art" but lots of prurient interest in tits. Poser is the perfect tool for exploring all of their adolescent masturbation fantasies and, big ol' bonus, they can show off their creations to a virtual 'room' full of like-minded peers.

This debate has raged on as long as I've been posting stuff around here, and I'm still not convinced that a majority of Poser Artists (talk about an oxymoron) create anything remotely resembling 'art'...it's about 8590% leering, Beavis-and-Buttheadesque rubbish that in years past would've been found tucked between the mattress and box springs where Mom wouldn't find it. To attach some bullshit "it's art if you want it to be, man" nobility to this stuff is a disservice to any real artists who still post here.

Contrary to Renderosity's silly TOS, criticism, even and especially negative criticism, is as valuable a learning tool for an artist as education and experimentation. Not all criticism an artist receives is going to be positive, warm, fuzzy or even constructive. By denying these aspiring 'artists' true and honest critique, Renderosity is condemning them to abject mediocrity.

I agree with Jettboy. Zarabanda - is it me you're calling a hypocrite ? I'd like to add one comment to the people commenting on blood in one of my images: (skinless) Epidermal tissue is NOT blood. Not everything red or pink is blood. No offense intended, no critique or snide comments intended, but I really - do - need to clarify that it isnt blood, even though it's in the vicinity of red; Blood in that light should have been darker, harsher with extreme bright spots where it hit. 'k ? ~S

oh, here we go, here we go..I've seen some top-notch Poser stuff that was art, things that took forever to create and render..and that must be the other 10-15%..I've only done one Beavis-and-Butthead pic, as a giggle, and in the 3 days it was up, it got 170 hits..and I've passed that on some non-NVIATWAS pics..so ya never know
The thing I do is to offer suggestions, such as 'you might try..', and never 'I think', or 'I' anything..determine easy fixes, such as scaling,etc., and end on a positive note, say something nice, or encouraging..only had 3 people go ballistic on me in 2 years..so it must work..;)

Diolma, assymetry isn't always a bad thing.