It,s true that without Jack and Eds hard work Renderosity would not be the site it is today.Its also true that without Edgenet there would be no place for Renderosity to go,however what is most importantly true here is that without you,the members there would be no Renderosity at all.This site was built up by the combined contributions of each and every member.From those amazingly talented and generous folk who built models,created textures and such like, to those who just hung around the forums and answered the questions.Each and every one sewed the little stiches that went into making the rich tapestry that is Renderosity. The way I see what has happened is this. Jack and Ed,figured that because of their hard work and because renderosity was doing so well they could somehow capitilise on it and make some serious money.That seems a reasonable plan to me but prehaps they could have been more open about it.To do so the profile of the site had to change to make it more attractive as a buisness venture.Hence the store and the brilliant idea of taking the more talented and productive members with them as they changed that profile to stop the rest of us crying foul.Money talks and it worked,why would,nt it? wer,e all human after all and we could all do with a bit extra income.Attempts were made to increase sales figures by putting textures and poses in the free stuff that only related to items for sale and even the new type of competition where you had to buy stuff to enter.All good buisness practice exept of course this isn,t anyones buisness site this is a forum that in the end belongs to it,s members.It was clear to many what was happening and some complained,some left. Stage two appears to have been the proposed merger with Zygote which would have raised the capitol to buy the domain name from Edgenet.I,m not sure here why Zygote are making a big deal about wanting the membership database here as a lot of that was transfered to them with the Zygote trojan camel,but whatever, it,s clear that by swallowing Renderosity they would have made themselves a better target for a takeover. Stage three would have been the sale of Jack,Ed,Renerosity Zygote ltd to Curious Labs at a considerable profit. Edgenet got the drop on Jack and Ed, and realised that with Curious Labs interest there was big money to be made.Despite brokering the deal Jack and Ed were ousted.There main complaint in the posting from them is that by upping the domain price stage two is dead in the water. This means Jack and Ed have nothing to sell(just like the rest of us members) and dont profit from the deal unless they can prove Renderosity is their "intellectual property" or if they retain ownership of the membership database. The legality of ANYONE selling the membership database is in question. At the end of the day no one including Jack or Ed comes out of this smelling of roses. The only people who did nothing wrong are you the hard working members who built this site. Now you are being asked to press the self destruct button and destroy your domain as either an act of sympathy for Jack and Ed,who conjoured up the Fiscal Spectre that stabbed them themselves or as a protest against Edgenet who by locking Jack and Ed out of the site show that they are none to proud of there own actions and I suspect unsure as to where they stand legally with selling the membership database. Until someone does something to prove otherwise this site is YOUR site.It has not been sold to anyone.To destroy it because of what happened to Jack and Ed because they chose to swim with sharks would be a sad and at this moment pointless act.You have all worked very hard to build this site.Think long and hard before you decide,and good luck wherever you go.

Interesting and thought provoking post... I'll be back to reread this periodicaly as the war rages on. In spite of the swirl of controversy and animosity that all this is causing... I am enjoying seeing all the different viewpoints being aired here.

Only the fact that Edgenet did not show up yet convince me that they are mostly wrong. It is not only a question of database, think of great artists on this site. Not me for sure, since a year I only buy stuff here and at zygote and only play with dials. But still even if I am not an artist i bought a lot of stuff and download a lot of them and can say that those artists are real. If those artists decide to remove a lot of their stuff like they did today is because they feel that their rights was not fully respected. i respected all of them because of their great work and all the information they provided to us. I learned more from this site than from my book. Sorry if my sentence looks funny but I am french. I will support the artists and their decisions until the end even if I come on this site every day for at least one hour a day. FOR ME THIS SITE IS NOW DEAD....DEAD....DEAD...DEAD Claude

Very Interesting indeed. A very fresh, level-headed perspective. I've removed my gallery garbage for the time being, but will lurk around the forums until something concrete occurs. Maybe we are all victims of two-party politics. Maybe it's time for a third party to step forward, fresh, naive and full of idealism to pave the way to a new, non-capitalist site. Something to think about. -Darth_Logice

Frankly, the way this thing has developed, my guess would be that they would now have to pay someone to buy this site. I think it might be up to Zygote and Curious Labs to bail the site out. They have a major stake in seeing that this community doesn't disintegrate. Personally I would like to see an explanation from Edgenet and either a statement by them accusing Jack and Ed of something, or an offer to them to return to their posts. Berge

Edgenet provided the space, true. But it was Willow, Ian, Jack and Ed that built the site up. Why should Edgenet have any claim to what is here? If Edgenet didnt host the site I'm sure the forum wouldve found another host somewhere. Edgenet should count themselves fortunate that we stuck around after the last blowout a year ago. This whole site is the community's "intellectual property". Edgenet has no right to it, not even the database. Like the rest of you, I'm thumbing my nose up at Edgenet (and some other body parts we wont mention), but will still lurk in the background to see what the community finally does to Edgenet. Dave

I am beginning to think that both parties in this fiasco have taken and passed "Mass Manipulation 101". While it does not change my opinion that Edgenet has absolutley no business whatsoever getting involved in community goings on, and who runs/moderates this site; I have to admit, I have issues with how Ed and Jack are handling this. Admittedly, they are upset with what has happened, and rightfully so; but I do not care for certain discrepencies. ex: the email that was sent out stated that they had been removed as admin (true), but it was also stated as fact that they had been banned/locked out of the site entirely. When Edgenet denied that anyone had been banned from the site, no one stepped forward to refute it, but the story did change ever so slightly to...(paraphrased) Well, we thought that if we posted this then we would surely be banned". Projecture and fact are completely different animals. There also seem to be other, subtle manipulations in the way things are said ( or not said), to sway peoples view to the extreme. EdgeNets response: 1. Effective, Sept 16, the admin privileges for Jack and Ed were removed. As a direct result of their statements and actions, they were no longer able to fulfill their obligations under their operating agreement with EdgeNet. This is unfortunate because in our opinion, they did a good job managing the site and growing membership. More details on the reasons behind this in a minute, but first, a few pieces of information. What statement? What actions? What obligations? What information? Lots of little half snippets here and there, but nothing substantial. Edgenet, I really want to know the nature of your involvement with Renderosity. Why are you so involved in the politics here? This is the first I've ever heard of a host company getting directly involved in the management of thier hosted sites. You are the host, you provide the server and the domain name. The webmasters manage and maintain the site, and make sure you get paid for your services. If you are not getting paid, or making a profit from Renderosity in some other way; why are we still here? Why wasn't Renderosity shut down when you supposedly started losing money because of it? That's just good business sense...and you are a business; no one, at least not me, faults you for that. As far as I'm concerned, you have no right to barge in here and change things around. Criminy! That's like my mother coming into my house and rearranging my kitchen, or worse, how to raise my children (pardon the children analogy, but that's what some people are acting like we are...and frankly, how some people are behaving). I am angry. I feel intruded upon, and trod upon; and I don't like this feeling of being manipulated into taking sides within the community...I won't do it.

I'm enraged over Edgenet stepping and taking charge when they have no business doing so. Just found out that the moderators got locked out too (if you dont believe me ask LoboUK and a few others). All of this seems to be very underhanded. The sooner that Edgenet is out of the picture the better. Dave

This is probably one of the better threads in this whole mess. I agree, Edgenet has no business in the day to day running of the community, that is not their job, their job is to serve as host..unless of course there is something in a contract that says they can do otherwise for whatever reason. I would love to hear from Edgenet as to why Jack and Ed's ( and others) privileges were revoked...frankly I would love to hear both sides of the story... I pulled my stuff and made my public statement because at this point I do not trust Edgenet to keep my good interests (my meaning the community) at heart. When the dust settles I'll figure out what is going on and then do what I think is best as everyone else will also. Momcat, this is the second time that Edgenet has done something underhanded to the builders of this community, so in my book they are a higher suspect in this drama then anyone else. I smell greed a bit on both sides yes, but I still think that in the end...Jack and Ed do have the interests of the community at heart whereas Edgenet just looks at us as dollar signs to be sold off to the highest bidder and then be done with us..... The problem with this is, no matter who is trying to sell what to whom (and I take it that what is wanted is the membership database) is that no one has the right to sell our names and personal info to anyone. Now to be fair, if they really want to do this, why don't they offer each and every member a piece of the action too? It is afterall our info to do with as we please.....and frankly I'm getting really tired of giving MY info away for free...(read this last with tongue in cheek please) Corporate politics destroys the feeling of "freedom" in a community...in a community of artisians and artists politics has no place...it stifles creativity and distracts us from what we really set out to do, build and participate in a community where we can get help, show off our wares and generally enjoy the free exchange of knowledge from a unique group of individuals... The bottom line is Edgenet could give a rat's a** about what we think, because if that were true, then Ed and Jack would be where they were prior to Sept 16th and so would the other moderators that they kicked. They made a business decision without considering the impact it would have in the community...we didn't come here and stay because of Edgenet, we stayed because of what Jack and Ed did to help us foster a community. This is OUR community and if need be we will do whatever we have to do to rebuild just like in real life when a disaster strikes...you rebuild and go on. Whether it's here or somewhere else. If this results in a split again...some will go, some will stay and some will visit both sites just as some of us visit both Renderosity and the PFO now. It's a personal choice. I was not manipulated into pulling my things, nor will I be manipulated into going elsewhere. I can assure you that if I go it will be because I want to not because someone has convinced me to. I have done what I felt was right because of my observations in this unfolding drama. The community has already been changed irrecovably, no matter what happens from here on out.

I'm also very disapointed with the personal politics. I would hope that people could put those aside...or at least keep them to private email and stop littering the forums with snipes. I have seen allusions to certain persons being "snippy"...as far as I acn see, the only people getting snipped at by this person are those that snipe first. It doesn't make it right, but it certainly makes it understandable. All the politics and suggestions that those who stay are "traitors" is really turning my stomach.

Re Bergerac's 2nd paragraph: Ditto. Please "either charge them or release them". Then we will start to know where we are.

Momcat, that is what happened before..for a while there were those that if you frequented the PFO then you were a traitor and the same went for over there too...if one good thing has come of this it is that Willow, Grey, Jack and Ed are speaking again...and I am very glad about that. Personal politics should not enter into this. That is not what this is about. Whether to stay or not, frequent both or not is strictly a personal decision and in an ideal world shouldn't make a difference to anyone. I know it will to some but it shouldn't... Hang in there Momcat, it's going to be quite a ride :) If it helps any, here's a HUG for ya!

What really pisses me off is that we all have a stake in this, and as Pendarian has said, things have already changed. One way or the other each of us is the poorer for this rift. I would prefer not to constantly have to cruise the web and post the same message on a dozen forums in the hope of finding the guy with the right answer. In the past this has been THE place. Surely Zygote and Curious Labs have the most to lose and can do something to keep this community from splitting up? Berge

Seems that whoever wins this war, their purpose is to sell this place to Curious Labs and Zygote. Which would make this site not a community anymore, but a company's site... Who said freedom of speech ?

Moved to the Complaint & Debate Forum Tim

It remains to be seen whether ownership by CL/Z would stifle free speech. Most people here don't have harsh things to say about the companies or the software, outside of the 4.0.3 patch debacle. What I would point out is that the most useful forums which are company-owned are ones that focus on advanced technical issues, not galleries or user-to-user support groups. If there were a forum where someone from GE/CL/Z answered questions about advanced joint manipulation or the finer points of the .CR file format, tricks, tips, lighting techniques, future improvements to the software, etc., that would be more than appropriate. However, this is a portal, an online community, and we generally prefer the appearance of objectivity. When MacUser bought Macworld, Macworld's subscribers howled at being taken over by the inferior publication. Columnists skeptical of the integration were fired. Prodigy was founded by a disgruntled AOL sysadmin who was let go for censoring posts indiscriminately. Users of the new service soon learned that posts critical of Prodigy would also disappear, and it wasn't long before Prodigy found itself the defendant of a class-action suit. We don't pay $25 a month to be members of this community, which is why they were entitled to sue. Our rights are whatever the TOS says they are, or aren't. This is only 'my' site insofar as I contribute to it and it relates to an interest of mine. That said, owners of a portal like this one need to remember they provide a highly generic commodity in a competitive arena, and that the Internet shows no signs of becoming a seller's market any time soon. The content Osity offers is wholly provided by its community, down to file storage. It's a two-edged sword, but it's sharper on the side facing the owners. The challenge of finding another forum is far smaller than the challenge of building another community from scratch, something potential buyers should be keenly aware of.

Thanks for the hug Pendarian...this whole thing is really making me ill...I don't know who to believe, and frankly I'm really beginning to not give a damn. You make an excellent point Duane.:: well, several, actually::

Did you see the post on egroups about zygote's reply to this situation? I found it very interesting actually, might want to go read it, Momcat.

I read it. Is it real? Some of the behavior I've seen in the past
couple of days makes me suspicious of anything I see that comes
second hand. Frankly, I don't really care anymore. I've had it with
this mess, and I'm taking Jeffs advice...I'll post where I please
and get the most out of what the people in the community have to
offer, and contribute in turn. I wash my hands of this damned dog
and pony show and plan on getting on with the fun stuff. Anybody
interested in joining me? Race ya to the tavern! >^_^

I believe I am daft today Pendarian. I cannot find the Zygote post at egroups. Help please and thank you.

We will all just have to wait and see...meantime, I'm going to go unzip some of the files that I haven't had a chance tu unzip and get to some posing....I would really like to enter zygote's contest but time is short!!!! Would LOVE to race ya to the tavern!!! Meet ya there!!!

It's under message #45....:)

Momdot and others, Please understand that when I stated in my statement that: "Currently, Ed and I are locked out of the Database, we can't e-mail the members of Renderosity to inform them of what is going on." That database is the database that hosts all of your e-mails, preventing us from being able to send a "broadcast" of what happened and why Ed and I were moving on. Edgenet said that if we gave them a statement, that they would send it, but Ed and I were concerned that if we went that route, things would have been removed from our statement instead only sending out to the members an Edgenet "Edited" version of what transpired. It was not saying that we were banned from the site, just from the Member Database which enables us to do "Broadcast" e-mails (like the Zygote Coupons and Camel). Edgenet took our voice from the Community, offered to allow us to use that voice, but at what cost to the facts?? That is what was meant :o) Hope that helps clear that up. Jack

Your side of the story is posted all over this place Jack. There are links to it everywhere. Geeze we can have jeff put a link to it on the main page like willow had if that's what it takes. Remember that one? You put it there yourself? Simply Ask Tim to send an e-mail to all the members stating the forum is under new management. And to come to the site for more info. Now why is it that you couldn't figure this out for yourself? I'm not decided yet about you. But these are the kinds of acts that only I apparently see. And they do not make you look like the saint you pretend to be. ScottA

Scott, I am not trying to be a saint and I am not "perfect". My story may be painted all over this place, but not by my doing, all I am doing is answering the questions as people ask them... Yes, I could have someone place it on the front page, but then again, due to the software, opinions posted regarding that opinion must be read and "approved" before it is put up. Now understand that I am not saying this would happen, but it makes it possible for a "party" or "individual" to keep opinions from being posted, thus "editing" the voices of individuals who would like to reply... Whereas, answering individually in "open forum" format, Edgenet cannot delete posts publicly without a "backlash" occuring, not that I think that would because Tim invited me here for public debate of the situation. Doing it this way just keeps everyone honest, sorry that you don't approve of this way... People can't censor you if you don't go to a place where they can be tempted to do so... Jack

If Edgenet agreed to post your side of the story. (which I'm not saying they would. Just being hypothetical here)it would be there for you to read as well. If you read it and they edited it in any way. You could just ask them to remove it because it's been altered. You could tell the members that it's not right. And I myself would petition to have it removed. If you just don't want to do that. Or Edgenet for some reason is not willing to post a link. Just ask Tim to send the same e-mail I posted above. And one of us will put a link to it in the news forum. I'm sure it would stay there and not be deleted. You see? It's not that hard. You've been here long enough to know how to use the boards. It just sounds like you are trying to pull people away from this site. Then tell them what you want them to hear. And there will be no Edgnet to respond to what you are saying to people. ScottA

I think a suggestion was made earlier to find or create a new "non-capitalist" site. Yes starting all over again can be tough, but when things get so far out of whack that they can't be fixed (sort of like a bad marriage) sometimes it's necessary. Personally I feel that the vast majority of us who spend an ungodly amount of time at this hobby do so out of the sheer love and enjoyment of it, as opposed to making $$$. We do it because it's fun. When it's no longer fun, we stop. That's it. I'm all for the creation of a new community "by the people, for the people." But that's me. This is coming from a guy who's spent the entire year working on a 3D comic book for others to enjoy for free, who sometimes thinks all the time, effort and stress involved is absolutely crazy, but does it anyway because he loves it and feels not everything on the net should have a price tag. Do what you must, as must we all. Alan powerheroes.com

I think a suggestion was made earlier to find or create a new "non-capitalist" site. Yes starting all over again can be tough, but when things get so far out of whack that they can't be fixed (sort of like a bad marriage) sometimes it's necessary. Personally I feel that the vast majority of us who spend an ungodly amount of time at this hobby do so out of the sheer love and enjoyment of it, as opposed to making $$$. We do it because it's fun. When it's no longer fun, we stop. That's it. I'm all for the creation of a new community "by the people, for the people." But that's me. This is coming from a guy who's spent the entire year working on a 3D comic book for others to enjoy for free, who sometimes thinks all the time, effort and stress involved is absolutely crazy, but does it anyway because he loves it and feels not everything on the net should have a price tag. Do what you must, as must we all. Alan powerheroes.com

I think a suggestion was made earlier to find or create a new "non-capitalist" site. Yes starting all over again can be tough, but when things get so far out of whack that they can't be fixed (sort of like a bad marriage) sometimes it's necessary. Personally I feel that the vast majority of us who spend an ungodly amount of time at this hobby do so out of the sheer love and enjoyment of it, as opposed to making $$$. We do it because it's fun. When it's no longer fun, we stop. That's it. I'm all for the creation of a new community "by the people, for the people." But that's me. This is coming from a guy who's spent the entire year working on a 3D comic book for others to enjoy for free, who sometimes thinks all the time, effort and stress involved is absolutely crazy, but does it anyway because he loves it and feels not everything on the net should have a price tag. Do what you must, as must we all. Alan powerheroes.com

This has become in my humble opinion one of the most lucid and sensible threads to arise from this sorry situation.Because of time difference (I,m in the UK)and work commitments I have just got a chance to read through all the follow up postings and some very valid and important points have been raised by everyone. Jack,I,m pleased your listening in because one of the first points raised has already caused me problems and I,m gonna raise it with you.Please bear with me. First off Nitreug,Hi!English may not be your first language but you spelled out the problem as eloquently as anyone."think of the great artists on this site......if those artists decide to remove a lot of their stuff like they did today it is because they feel that there rights (were)not fully respected. Too bloody right they were not respected.What people are trying to decide is by whom were those rights not fully respected.I firmly believe they weren,t respected by ALL concerned, you included Jack. It is the Artists that concern me also.How do they best deal with the mess left behind by those who chose to play buisness politics But,thats not what you said that made my mind up. Jack I forcast this was on the cards on the day you first proposed the store and I am so damn annoyed with you that I was right. I don,t hold it against you that you tried to facilitate this deal, human nature being what it is your motives are understandable.Why shouldn,t you have profited from your hard work.But the way you went about it was all wrong.You can fool some of the people ...etc.What sank you in the end was that you underestimated Edgenets greed.Whilst you took the time to persuade every one to go along with each and every subtle step,(even though you never let on where it was we were all actually headed) as soon as Edgenet realised what you were up to they just dived straight for the money and blew it.Sad as it is, your way would have worked, but thats how it is.We know where we stand with Edgenet forewarned is forearmed.Its only friends who get close enough to stab you in the back. But thats not what made my mind up,and why I,m coming down so hard on you Jack. After I read the posts here I flicked back through some of the past postings and saw with a clearer eye how good a politicion you really are,then something jumped out and hit me like a slap in the face. The way I understood nitreug,s post he thought that the hard work of these talented artists, there picture and props and tutorials would have been part of the sale.I was reminding myself to explain that you couldn,t have sold those when up popped your proposal for the Renderosity CD.Remember Jack,the one where everyone would contribute images,and tutorials and a few models and of course they would have to sign the rights of these things over to Renderosity for comercial use so that Renderosity could Legally sell the CD,just for funds to support the site you understand. Sign the rights over to Renderosity. Jack,the negotiations to purchase then sell Renderosity must have been in progress when you made that little suggestion. Anyone who contributed to that proposed CD would have found that there work belonged to Renderosity and had become another little asset for you people to trade with. Jack you were going to take from these people one of there most valued possessions.Not even Edgenet at there worst could have pulled that little stunt. Thats what made up my mind and why I,m coming down so hard on you. Jack...J,accuse ! Now that everything has blown up in your face your trying to take Renderosity down with you. Leave it Jack. Let this wonderfull place stand as your Legacy.Leave it to remind people of what you did do right rather than destroy it to remind them of what you did wrong. I think I,ve made my position about as clear as I could.I,m gonna take my chance with Edgenet and as many of you "Great Artists" as choose to stay. I agree with those that say this has to be a personal decision by each and every member.I,ve explained about as candidly as I could my reasoning but I fully respect those who choose to go and I want to say it has been an honour and a pleasure to know you all.Yeah you included Jack.Good luck.

dlm... First of all hun get your facts straight here. Jack and ed did not propose the cd nor were they involved in the proposals I wrote up. That idea was mine and mine alone. And as you notice if you did look at it it did not go past stage 2. Number two. All proposals were hosted and still are hosted on MY personal website. Not Jack and eds. Furthermore you will notice if you read, the cd would have acquired ONE TIME RIGHTS not all rights. Also Dlm.. I would have taken on this as a loss of money to myself because I fully believe in the artistic beauty of the community. Jack and ed would have gotten some money from it from the profit and I would have gathered mailing costs and money to create the cds but The rest would have gone into buying contest prizes for the Members of this community. I called it the Renderosity artist disk because it would have been artists from Renderosity and it would have benifited Renderosity but It would have had a disclaimer that it was distrubted by OMNI 3d.. and if you don't know it yet hun.. THAT IS MY SITE. Not Jack and ed's.. Now since you want to twist the facts don't do it with this because you are dead ass wrong here. Make sure you have the facts straight. Stormrage J.Smith

Thank you Stormy, I was trying to figure out what he was talking about. Jack

My loyalties lie with the community, not with either side of the squabble. What I would like to see is the reestablishment of the community on one, well run forum. I'm tired of all this subtle manipulating bullshit. Let's get real open and honest here. Jack, if you need the support of the community to set up a new place, give us the details and ask for our support. We already know you will do a good job of running it, we need to know what your vision is (and we'll probably want some guarantees that our interests will be protected at this stage :). Edgenet, tell us your plans for the future of this site. We're being asked to trust, but we're not being trusted. I don't care much what happened in the past anymore. I want to know what both sides are planning for the future. Let's drop the accusations and explanations and get some straight answers about where this is going. Berge

You go, Berge!! I agree. Enough squabbling, time for some action. Dave

What he said.

The part I find most interesting is Jeff's statement that Jack and Ed failed to live up to some part of their contract and were duly let go. However, Jeff won't say what it was, citing purported confidentiality of contracts (not the same thing as a nondisclosure agreement, legally binding the signatories from talking), which I find disappointing coming from a company with a reputation at the very least in question. Oddly, Jack and Ed don't mention this either, unless I missed something. What were the terms? Did EdgeNet have a clause giving them the right of first refusal on the Zygote deal, or the requirement of being an active part of such dealings? Both are completely reasonable terms and nothing to be ashamed of. Put your cards on the table, EdgeNet. We're here at our leisure, not yours.

I have just spent the better part of an hour reading through all the postings, I believe that if the debate continues it will tear the community apart and I for one think its pointless. I am 38 years old and as long as I can remember I have been an artist. My mother passed it down to my brothers and they passed it on to me. I scribbled and sculpted, I drew pictures on anything I could find and I never got anything less then an A+ in art class. Then when I got this computer along with Bryce,Poser,Photoshop and others I was finally able to do the kind of art I have always wanted to do. Not long after Baldiman,( great artist and friend ) visited our web site and told us (Jackie and I)about Renderostiy. I fell instently in love with this place. The people were great and the art work was amazing. I found I was small beans in a big pot and all those years of A+s in art class led up to this. I was thrilled!!! Well,,today I pulled all my pictures off the walls. It hurt to pull my gallery out of a place that has given me so much joy,but right is right. If I may quote my dear friend Jackie, "Im with the good guys!" I hate seeing Jack and Ed get screwed. They made this place what it is and it WILL NOT BE THE SAME WITHOUT THEM. Everyone can do whatever they want. I want to say something to Jack and Ed,,I hope you guys are listening. This place was blessing for me and I believe in my heart that what ever new adventure you dream up, you will have the support of people like me. I dont want to post here if its a place where the community is not thought of first. Thats what its all about,,US! And you guys were looking out for us and we are forever greatful but your job is not over my friends,,,give us another place to post our work and be a part of something like this once was..Keep the faith, we are with you. Darrell G. Lewis

A number of posts have appeared on this thread in my absence.I dont want to try to answer them all so I,ll just say this. Thank you Stormrage for pointing out the facts about the CD.All it takes to correct a misinterpretation like mine is a reply like yours that points to the facts. If the rights were to be signed over to Omni3d and not Renderosity then I was way off the mark,or as you put it "dead ass" wrong and I owe Jack an appoligy. Jack I appologise. Thank you also Ashlocke for taking the time to produce a long and detailed account of things from Jacks perspective. I,ve got to say I still have serious doubts.Which ever way you read it a lot of manouvers were going on behind peoples backs and a lot of misinformation was being given out about the changes that were being made to facilitate those manouvers. I made my statement and stand by it as a valid interpretation of the big picture.There has been a number of well constructed statements made opposing it. I think it best to leave things to stand at that.Both sides are represented in the thread and if anyone wants to read through them they can make up there own minds. Me.I,m now going to follow Godzillas sound advice in his post above.

Ashlocke, you summed it all up quite nicely and I would hope that Tim would make a more information based answer. Granted, I feel that Ed and I (along with the other moderators) was screwed over by them, I think it is very important for them to make a statement for the Community's sake if this site is ever going to go forward. Duane, the only thing that Ed and I "failed" to live up to Edgenet's standards was not remaining silent when we got shafted... We knocked down the value of this site by us leaving and posting to people why... Dlm, please don't appologize, it is a confusing time for everyone, for Ed, Myself, for the members and also for Edgenet, who must now rethink things. WE ALL DO. I will say this though, I really respect you for appologizing, some people have a hard time doing that, and you were able too. Thank you. Everyone, the fact of the matter is this, the Community is where ever the Community wants to be. Be it here, the PFO, Big-I or Ed's and my place when it is finished. There is absolutely NO reason why the Community should feel differently about each other. Yes, be sure to look at everything, try and get the facts, but don't attack each other... that solves nothing and will bring about the death of the Community, no matter where it is!! Jack

So when can we finally put all this stupid stuff behind us and get back to what we LOVE to do: create ART! Edgenet(Tim) has made a statement (if you'll follow the link at the bottom of his mass email). Kind of vague in it's entirety. Still bothers me that a webhost holds so much power as to what goes on in a website on their server. Whether the moderators were doing what Tim says or not (which I sincerely doubt), an explanation should of been given to them that wasnt second hand information. Doesnt matter how they try to gloss over things, when you get canned, it HURTS! Maybe we should just take our marbles and go play somewhere else. Who knows? Maybe we could invite Zygote and Curious Labs to come play at our new playground too. Dave

This Afterschool Special presentation of "Scorpions in a bucket" has been brought to you by the American Bar Association, which reminds you why contracts attorneys exist and stable businesses built on handshakes do not.