Hi folks I look most not more in the Hot 20 most of you know the reason for that :-) But this day i take a look there and saw that 2 persons has the half of all places there No idea from how much frequent fractal uploaders, but there is a big list as i see the daily uploads and it seems that only 4 of 5 members have real class That ,s for me a very strange idea and i do not believe that Again i am not out on very big treat so as a while back or try to have a place in the Guinisbook of records for protest songs :-) My honest advice think a moment on all the another hardworking people and again i mean not my self so as so much of you always think But may be a honest vote system is not possible Can be Best wishes Arend

Well, I've said it before and it's also now in the Fractal Gallery Header: "Get out and VOTE! In order for the Hot 20 to be more accurate, we need everyone's participation. Voting is anonymous - you can vote for as many images as you want." There are NOT enough people voting-period. Until that happens, it won't change. End of story :) Nick P.S. And the V thing is not necessary...

I just want to say, that this voting subject is old and getting depressing..I think people vote for the image as well as the person and I don't see anything wrong with that, I also don't think it is up to anyone to tell me to vote or not to vote as It is my business what I want to do. We are all adults and don't need someone telling us what to do, It is really turning a lot of artist off here. Sorry but you can't control the public. Arend get over it, and just share your art like the rest of us here. I personally think putting the V in a comment is very encouraging to people, and will continue to do that. Thanks for listening hopefully! Patt

I agree totally with what Patt said,Arend get over it and just enjoy sharing art with your fellow artists, you can not control or tell individual people who they can or can not vote for the more this is brought up which is at least once a month or so. We have lost many good artists already guess now more may leave??...... sorry Nick I certainly do not mean any disrespect, but I do agree the V or Vote is an incouragement no one least that I know of does it to get votes for themselves its just an honest opinion of how that person feels about that piece of art work thats all. We all have our likes and dislikes.Thanks Carolyn

Well...for me it doesn't really matter whether my images become a vote or not. I just want to share my creations with you, and if you enjoy looking at them my goal is reached. thomaniac

Same here! :)

Same here also, thats the fun about it here enjoying each others work gosh so many have such creative minds. :)

In my not well English one I will try to explain my feeling with regard to the votes and the Hot20, my personal position is that I don't worry about if I am there or not, I enjoy but of a good comment that of a vote. Renderosity I had allowed to know big artists with which share pleasing moments, don't come to worry if my name this to the end, to the means or I finish. I believe that each one of us votes a work for different reasons, and there each one of us is honest with their way of seeing the things, if we put rules there would no longer be vote freedom, and in fact the being but he liberates that there is in the world he is the artist. You can agree or not with the works that there is in the Hot 20, but I believe that that should be respected since it is the decision of most. Rodolfo En mi mal ingl voy a tratar de explicar mi sentimiento con respecto a los votos y el Hot20, mi posici personal es que no me preocupa si estoy alli o no, disfruto mas de un buen comentario que de un voto. Renderosity me a permitido conocer grandes artistas con los cuales comparto gratos momentos, no vengo para preocuparme si mi nombre esta al tope, al medio o ultimo. Creo que cada uno de nosotros vota un trabajo por distintas razones, y alli cada uno de nosotros es honesto con su manera de ver las cosas, si pusieramos reglas ya no habria libertad de voto, y precisamente el ser mas libre que hay en el mundo es el artista. Se puede estar de acuerdo o no con los trabajos que hay en los Hot 20, pero creo que debe respetarse eso ya que es la decisi de la mayoria. Rodolfo

I vote for both! That is the way I am. I don't feel it is anyones business to point this out to anyone as a negative thing. We are all here sharing our work and enjoying this great site and blessed to have it! Why can't we just stop being so concerned about what everyone else is doing? I am not here and either are many others I am sure, to compete! I am here to bless YOUR work and share mine and celebrate art and people period. There are many contests here to compete in btw!

The V thing was mentioned as not necessary. meaning that you don't need to place it when voting.
In the spirit of anonymity that the Challenges now enjoy, I don't think there is anything wrong with that suggestion.

I get IMs from both sides on this...ALL the time.

So...because the Hot 20 IS there, what is wrong with trying to get more to vote?

Nick

Nothing is wrong with trying to encourage people to do something,it is wrong when we try to manipulate people. I think by this continued complaining about who votes for who and WHY..is going to have an adverse effect! I personally don't appreciate being looked over my shoulder. If I write V or not shouldn't be of any concern to anyone. The Hot 20's is a place to celabrate others progress.

hmmm ... as i recall it correctly, 3 to 4 months ago, you was the one who was mentioned 4 to 5 times a week, didn't seem to bother you then either, Arend ... the hot20 hasn't got anything to do with the quality of your work, but you can't expect people to vote 30 times for you with only 12 comments ... there are so many good artists here nowadays, with incredible pieces of artwork ... makes ya think the hot20, which seems to be important to artists just like constructive comments, isn't enough anymore, and may have to be expanded to a hot40 ... but where is it enough??? some are popular, some aren't ... some get works of art in a few hours, others work on it for days, some get something on the screen right away as soon as they start up the program, others have to program a formula ... all don't really matter ... it's what YOU wish to share with people, and if you want to see it expressed by being mentioned in a hot20, then you don't do this for yourself, but for satisfaction of others have a nice day, Harmen

Harmen the only thing that i want is that people vote for the image and not for the name I think there is a vote system for ?? But as i read the reactions i am wrong on that You mention the situation that i has sometime 3 or 4 images on the same time in the Hot 20 I can tell you the reason for that, but whitout that, you know why Big compliments and votes 2 month long from my side result 3 or 4 images as friendly geste a few weeks Is that right or realistic ?? I think not the good way again in my opinion the image most be primair in giving a vote However that ,s my opinion and not really important :-) wish you all wisdom and much lucky fractalshots and apology for my bad use of the English language Greatz Arend

Honestly... I'm new to this forum and I'll admit I'd love to be in the Hot 20 but to me, the comments mean way more than the votes :) When people who look at your art take the time to make a comment on what you've done, it means a lot... and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.
I think I understand what you're saying Arend when you say you'd like to see what would happen if the names were taken off the images... whether they would get the same amount of votes or not.. but I don't think that's going to happen so I guess we'll just have to live with things the way they are :)

Sorry if I've offended anyone... I just seem to remember a while back that a person was very hurt by a spinoff of this discussion and I'd like not to see it happen again :(

hugz to all jen :)

The only honest way is to look to all the uploads and that take ,s much time so as I now by experience I am pretty sure as anyone upload anonymous that you have a another Hotlist and much more diffirent names then now :-) But i am also sure that a few fract artist has always a place there for the simple reason that we have a few great fract artist,s here on Renderosity and real quality win,s always I can live very good by that Its each day a pleasure to look around here Greatz Arend

What this place needs is the option of not allowing people to vote on an image when you post it. Personally, I don't want my images in the Hot 20 anymore. The whole thing disgusts me because it's not about the art, it's about the person. Arend's right, there are some great art pieces that should be there, but never will because they don't comment on every post or are new artists. If people are leaving, it's not because people are trying to fix the Hot 20, but because the negative politics that drive it are turning people off. It doesn't look like anything is ever going to be done to improve the system, and after reading this thread and seeing all the quickly ruffled feathers, nobody is going to change their opinion on anything, so it's going to go on and on and on....

Big debate over this issue of the Hot 20! A real pain, if you ask me.

When I first started posting here, I didn't even pay any attention to the Hot20 until someone sent an IM congratulating me for being voted there. Even now, I don't go there very often to check up on who is this weeks favorite artists.

As for the "V" along with ones comments: I don't like that game. It is as if the one commenting is saying, "I voted for your image, so I expect you to vote for mine." Everyone can deny this if they wish, but what other underlying reason would there be for telling the artist you voted for their work?

Voting is supposed to be a private thing. And it should be for the artistic quality of what is posted. I do not vote very often as there are not very many 'mind boggling fractals' posted. Voting for the sake of voting is senseless.

There are several fractal artists who really make what I would consider museum quality fractals. However they rarely show up here. But once upon a time, they were here frequently.

One artist, not a fractal artist, only posts at InnerTraveler. I go there to see this persons art. And I post there also. To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a Hot20 on that site. That pleases me.

Okay. I'll shut up now.
Marion

Message edited on: 09/06/2004 17:57

Bravo Marion,, maybe age makes people wise, I agree totally and believe that nice comments are much more effective than being in that silly 'popularity vote' that hot 20 has become.. I never look there , it does not mean a thing to me... The few times I was in there I was told to go there and look otherwise I would have not known.. Please let us create for the fun of it and not for WINNING a few days in this one little section of the otherwise great site..Renderosity..If it iritates you to see the same people in there all the time... don't go there and you will not know... Henny

Well, I might as well put my two cents in. The problem I have is not with the hot 20, but with the people who message other artists and tell them that their work isn't worthy to be there. Who says? Different strokes for different folks. As for not letting people know that you vote for them, that may be a good idea. I vote all of the time, but only for images that touch me specially in some way. It may even be the verse that is written beneath the image, so who is to say, "you are not good enough to be there"? Art is more than, are you good, or does everyone like you...it is feeling. It is emotional, it is memory, it is making someone feel something or think something out of the ordinary. I vote when I am touched and it doesn't matter the form. I am seriously going to consider being anonymous about it, though.

"Art is more than, are you good, or does everyone like you...it is feeling. It is emotional, it is memory, it is making someone feel something or think something out of the ordinary. I vote when I am touched and it doesn't matter the form."

Oh, how I love those words!

No, I can't make everyone vote. I realize that, and it is not my intention to 'manipulate' anyone. However, I am asking that if you see something that really gets your attention...Please click the 'vote' button. Not for the name, but for the work. Or, more importantly, the FEELING you get from that work :)

Thanks,
Nick

that is very much the way I would love to do it, but it is not done that way...that is why I have avoided it.... rather let people know I am honest when I place a comment or vote....I mean it. It is very special and I realy like it and nothing to do with the person that created it...it is the picture that moved me.!

I agree with you Nick! I do that and I will do that. Just feel that how I vote and the reasons I vote or you vote is none of anyones business. Something that touches me may not touch Henny or you but it does me and I like to tell the person that it was worth a vote. I will continue to do that and leave it up to the person to decided what if anything to do about it. Nuff said,judge me if you like. Patt

Well, I do agree with Henny and avalonfaayre about voting for the things that move you emotionally or appeal to your own personal sense of what is beautiful. But I would wish that no one would post in comments this "V". Leave it off any comment on mine, at least. Someone in our community sent me an IM telling me how I could know if he/she had voted for any of my images. Another person sent an IM asking me to vote on a certain image placed in one of the numerous challenges here on R'osity. And once someone who was on the AOM list sent an IM asking me to give him/her my vote. Needless to say, all three of these messages sort of surprised me. Kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. I make fractals as my retirement hobby and for my own pleasure. If the fractals I make give someone a little enjoyment, that is reward enough for me. Hugs to you all, Marion

So far i know its free for anyone to place here a item and the line above for my person is for sure not very tactful also some actions from your side monsier. You know very good what i mean !! The diffirent is I make not a word war or write to the moderator for help and protection but handle it on my own manner I tell my opinion and idea and that is also permissible so far i know for ANYONE But for me is this treat to end i understand that i think complete diffirent then the most of the fract group about the Hotlist and vote system so i have to life whit that Greetings Arend

I agree with Nick here that more people should vote...I have not time enough to look at all the uploads, so I often only look at my favorite artists, and sometimes I do not even get around to that...If a see an images I find especially interesting, I comment, and try to give my real and heartfelt impression....Sometimes this takes a lot of time...Often I simply FORGET to vote, as simple as that....Sorry about that, folks! I never do the V thing....I do not like it when people put it in their commnets of my work either....But I am sure that the artists I like most know that I love their work, and I guess that is what matters to me....Eveline

I agree whole heartly with what Nick says it doesn't matter who the artist is, if the art work gives me that special feeling then I will vote in whatever method I personally choose Unfortunately as Eveline said I try to get to my favorites not always is it possible to go through the gallery but when time permits I do. So a thank you to those of you who do stop by my gallery and for those of you who don't thats okay too but if I like your work I'll stop if I don't I won't. Now Arend be real honest here you know as well as I do all this started with some of my work being on the top 20 frankly I wished to heck they would get rid of it I don't need it or you end of subject as far as I am concerned

I would like to say that I am sorry in advance to anyone that was and is offended by my V thingy! I like to be able to project my emotion in this way, so sorry if you can't handle it. I still will continue with it however and if you don't like it I will delete it from the comments. Thanks for listening, Patt

Well, I have decided. I am going to vote for what my heart tells me, but I am going to do it anonomously. When I think about it, letting someone know you vote for them is nice, but when you don't put the little V in there, by the same token people will realize that they HAVEN'T gotten a vote. That isn't right....unless you want to vote for everyone, to spare feelings. If you do that, what is the whole point anyway? If people want to continue to put that on my postings, I don't mind. It doesn't matter much. Comments are worth as much or more.

Well, I have decided. I am going to vote for what my heart tells me, but I am going to do it anonomously. When I think about it, letting someone know you vote for them is nice, but when you don't put the little V in there, by the same token people will realize that they HAVEN'T gotten a vote. That isn't right....unless you want to vote for everyone, to spare feelings. If you do that, what is the whole point anyway? If people want to continue to put that on my postings, I don't mind. It doesn't matter much. Comments are worth as much, and much more.

Comments are nice to read as you have the feeling that people have really take a serious look to the image I see sometime 30 or 40 excact the same comments under each image via copy paste you know what i mean i think On the another side writing for each indival image a special story cost much time i know Comments are pretty as it has a personal touche and as you you can read why the visitor enjoy the image so much No idea of i have make it clear what i mean However sometime i like a image very much and can ,t find the right words to explane it May be a feeling from outside the heart Have a nice day Arend

It's sort of funny to see entries that complain about this tired topic followed by a nice long opinion about the topic, and then see the thread grow into the longest one in the forum. It goes to show that it still means something to a lot of people, including those who complain about it :)

Maybe I'll paste this entry into a .txt file so that I don't have to type it out again ;)

Like it or not, this place is structured to create competition. It has a hot 20 and the best and most galleries. I challenge anyone who has been in those places to honestly say that they didn't get a kick out of it. Like a drug, that kick can be hard to kick. We want to stay there or get back there again. I'm serious about that challenge. I would really like to know who doesn't enjoy having their work showcased in the hot 20 or best or most galleries.

Like I said before, the hot 20 is a popularity contest, but that doesn't mean that there is something wrong with what shows up there. The people who show up there consistenty, deserve to be there. They are popular because they make good art and they are well liked. What's wrong with that?

Also like I said before, I haven't had an image in the hot 20 for months. I'm not new. I have to conclude that I'm not popular, either because my work isn't that good or because I am not well liked. Either way, the direction to look is back at me, not at everyone else.

The system is what it is. Comments and votes are exchanged and friendships are made, but for the most part the system works. I'll still go to the hot 20 for a quick check of the best art (and to see if I'm there).

Keith

Message edited on: 09/11/2004 20:50

Dear Keith, I honestly like you and your work very much... I never ever voted for any image of you....just because voting does not mean anything for me...honestly, I do not care! I do not need a voting contest to see the value of people, nor of their art...I have other criteria, and I trust them much more than any voting system! I think many artists here are both very nice people and good artists, and have never had a single item in the hot twenty....Eveline

Keith, after my experiment, I know the only way I will ever get into the Hot 20. If I NEVER get in there again then I will consider myself lucky to not be a puppet. Now for the bit where I piss people off again... Any group of 'friends' that base their relationship on commenting and voting for each other, isn't a group that I want to be a part of. Especially when they ostracize a 'friend' who dares to question their behaviour. The V thing wasn't even a problem until this year. Those of us who have been here longer will remember when it never happened. I personally miss those times because this whole gallery has gone downhill in the last year or so. Apart from a few exceptions most people seem content with just finding something that appeals to as many people as possible, and then replicating it on a daily basis. That isn't art, it's popularity. When you stop doing things for 'your' pleasure and start doing them for other peoples pleasure, then you are just a puppet. Apophysis is a fantastic program, probably my all time favourite, but it is also the worst culprit. I see wave upon wave of just plain 'bad' flame images posted. The real problem is that the 'friends' just plain lie to eachother. Telling eachother how fantastic each piece of crap is. Lauding it as the best thing since leonardo, Michelangelo or any other ninja turtle they remember. Is it any wonder that when you look through these peoples galleries you find that they are doing exactly the same thing that they were doing a year ago? Why change when you are apparently the greatest living fractal artist in the world? Here's a radical idea... Stop commenting on your 'friends' images for a while and see what happens... After all 'real' friends support eachother no matter what... How many people are willing to give up praise for the pursuit of better art? Don't bother answering that question beause I already know the answer. Just stick your head back in the sand and wallow in the praise. Matt. (If you think this harsh and over the top then go tell it to someone who gives a shit. You know...One of your friends). P.S. I'm not disillusioned anymore, just angry.

Applause!!!!!!!!!* Bravo Matt, for your honesty! I would not have dared to speak out as clearly as you just did, but I agree from the bottom of my heart! Eveline

Attached Link: Inner Traveler

You know what? I have to go to my heart and question why I vote or comment. I am seeing both sides now, and I am asking myself what is most important. I reflect on the quotation, "..to thine own self be true.." Would you rather have a few sincere people admiring your work, or a mass of obligated comments? If I stopped all of "the game" then I know that C.I. is right...but that IS how it played...I have just formed some friendships and I really don't want to hurt anyone. After all, isn't life a game? I hate it, but it's true. I just hate that commenting and thanking and trying to see everyones work sometimes becomes a chore, and not fun any more. It wasn't like that when I started here. What happened?

your absolutely right Matt ... it's a list of popularity, not of designs ... even when the most popular person made the worst design in the world, he gets in there...

but who gives a $h1t

only that they screw it up for others, thats all

i have tested it also, Matt, i didn't comment for a whole month, and they decrease their comments, oh he didnt comment on mine, so i wont comment on his...

oh i made trouble in the copyright section, so it made me impopular, lets not comment on his work nomore

i made trouble in some other site, so i got banned, lets forget this big mouth

i have several warnings on my a$$ but that won't stop me for spamming my opinion

and the things ya do for others, well thats less appreciated

this whole gallery stuff is a big soap-opera, got to order some more boxes of tissues, for then i can wipe my tears laffing my a$$ off

but at least i am honest, and enjoy the freedom of speach, and i ain't gonna sneak a discussion into an IM because someone demands me to do that...

thought we most are grownups, not a bunch of sissies

OOPSIES...

have a good day

Harmen

Message edited on: 09/12/2004 11:16

I think that this is getting out of hand.

Lol! Lets all stop the whinin and get on with making art and having fun okay?? :)

Yup. I am finished with this discussion. The topic is MOOT!

Which is why the problem keeps going on unabated. People don't want to address the problems because they would rather look the other way instead of dealing with them.

Well, I still say more members voting would help :)

do you mean to say we have to vote for something we don't think deserves voting for? I don't think you understand what is going on... Some of us want to encourage artist to improve but why would they if they believe they are already so successful with having 3 or more pictures in the so called honor section..only there because they are very nice sweet people and make nice fractals and make it a full time job to put a 'V' at every image posted..but THEY are not improving because they think they got to the top...they don't even have time to experiment or explore the possibilities of the many programs available to learn about them... Maybe more people are learning that the HOT 20th is a joke...If it means business for Renderosity,, stay with it .. you are doing your job... Henny

think it would help to have the ability to have the voting system off, you have the choice to take comments and rating off as well, why not the voting ... cause the whole thing is a farce if ppl want to have their images in the hot20 and have their ego caressed, they can leave the voting system ON ... if not they can have it OFF ya can't solve a problem which keeps everyone busy by just saying * Well, I still say more members voting would help :) * think we need to elect someone more accurate and more artist minded to be a moderator... i vote for Matt smile

Henny

No...I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that there are many great images that get overlooked, and it might help if they got votes, too. There are many who don't vote-that is a fact.

I'm saying that I don't like the 'buddy system', and that if more members voted, maybe others would get a chance in the Hot 20.

Really though, if we didn't have a Hot 20, I wouldn't suggest one. But since we DO have one, I'm trying my best to speak out and make it fair. The only way that's going to happen at all, is to get more to vote, and do it honestly and privately.

I am doing my job in what is available to work with. I am just trying to help in the best possible way.

Nick

Message edited on: 09/13/2004 01:58

nick I do understand the situation you are in.. between a rock and a hard place.. I would call it...You are very fair.. and all this is not about you... but about the system the politics that is going on and the stubborn people that are just to ignorent or to set on not wanting to loose cyber friends. (Which is not worth a darn anyways).... people please get 'REAL' Let us go on and enjoy ART and keep learning to improve and don't get complacent...Anyone that is not agreeing with this can contact me... I will try to teach them what my 73 years of hard but interesting life has taught me...

Yes you are Nick agree with Henny your right in between a rock and a hard spot and frankly I really feel for you having to deal with this same thing every month or so. I love seeing new art but for now I just don't have the time to go through the gallery its just way to large and tons of excellent posts, that over half plus deserve a comment and or vote. When I can I do but health just doesn't permit it at this point. I'd love to improve Henny I truely would maybe on day we can get together, again though your right, tired of this thread lets just enjoy art and each other's art work, without all the politics, after all that is what Rendo is about Art . Have a good day everyone Carolyn

Just to put a little perspective on this from a Renderosity old timer (been around here about 6 years or so), and because I do an occasional fractal, I wanted to mention what is probably a little known fact except to us few old timers....Used to be the Hot Twenty in any gallery was based on the number of views a particular image got. Heck, I used to make it there on a regular basis back then, but not because of any grandiose artistic abilities, because I have none, and not because I had a lot of friends because I barely knew anyone in those days...Nope, I made it there because my specialty was Pin Up art, and everyone loves looking at a pretty girl with very little on :-) Anyway, my point is, no matter how it is handled, there will always be an issue with the Hot Twenty. Whether it be by votes or views or any other way the Powers that Be decide to do it, no one will ever be completely happy with the way it works. Like the old saying goes:"You can make some of the people happy all of the time. You can make all of the people happy some of the time. But you can never make all of the people happy all of the time". So lets just all go out and create beautiful art....after all, that's why we come here, right? And to heck with the Hot Twenty...it's nice, but it is not the be all and end all of this website...it's just a small part of it. I've made so many wonderful friends here, and I've had a great time doing my little artistic endeavors. If I make it to the Hot Twenty...hey, that's cool, but my main aim is to have fun and to create things that give others pleasure :-) And that is my two cents worth, which in the grand stream of things, really ain't worth much :-)

I agree totally with Avalonne, they are the words but they come closer to my thought, I believe that in feeling of all we make art or I eat in my case that I try to make it, with the single end of having a good time, to pass it well and for on all the things to know people of other cultures and to make friends, it is the best thing that it can spend, the rest is accessory. Rodolfo

Just one final thought: Seems like Renderosity has come to be like the local coffee/gossip shop. I thought it was as art gallery. Marion

Like Harmen said...An option to turn off voting when you upload an image, like you can for comments and rating. It wouldn't cure the problem, but it would make those of us who would use it feel better.

Limit the uploads even more...It used to be 3 uploads per day and is now 1 upload per day. Personally, I would be happy with 1 upload per 'week', but it should definately be maybe 2 or 3 per week.

Let's face it, fractals take less time than other types of art to make. It is quite easy for someone to knock out 1 a day (whether they will be any good is a different matter).

Limiting it more will have two beneficial effects in my opinion...

1. You will have more time to create images and thus the results will be better and you will have more time to improve yourself and techniques and thus the results will be better. A win/win situation.

2. Those people who complain about not having time to view or comment because of the amount of postings per day will find it easier. Less images will be posted so you will have more time to look at them.

A knock on effect of this is that you will be able to leave more constructive comments because you have more time. This will also hopefully result in people improving more.

The answer is obvious to me, but whether or not it will ever happen is another matter entirely. I believe (correct me if i'm wrong) that the only reason the number of postings per day was reduced last time was because of bandwidth problems.
I doubt if Renderosity will reduce it further unless a similar problem arises...It's a shame really.

Matt.

(Not angry any more).

Message edited on: 09/19/2004 04:54