confirming the miki2 functioning in c6pro. I was trying to get it to look more like a chimp in c6pro, and "grasp" did nothing. limb-scaling works better than it does in P7 IMVHO. tried to do the hair simulation on the chimp-girl, but it's gonna require RTFM. it worked o.k. for some straight wookie-style hair, but it crashed when I tried for some shorter, less stiff hair. other models, e.g. v4.1, allow eyeball rotation. saving model as object in object browser causes it to lose the pose AFAICT.

cobaltdream said: *have you gone to the daz store?  it's c6 pro that's out.  i don't even know if c6 standard is available yet.  checking.... if it is, i don't see it.

*not ten minutes after i read through this entire thread..... what shows up in my inbox, but an anouncement from daz saying they just released C6 standard.

i'll wait.... unless someone wants to buy it for me for a birthday pressie on saturday?  chuckles - thought not.

seriousely though, folks... no program is gonna be exactly the same as another.  that's the beauty and heartache of it all.  much as i'd LOVE application A to do this because Application B has that feature - it's not gonna show up.  i'd LOVE say, bryce, to act more like poser - but it doesnt.  it's bryce.  i'd LOVE poser to render like bryce.  alas, it doesn't.  instead, i'm teaching myself how to import into bryce (don't get me started on THAT headache).

it does little good to whine & moan about buggy software that's just been released.  while i agree they should wait until at least 90% of them are worked out, in this world where a hint becomes a rumor becomes a fact becomes an I WANT IT NOW - they speed things up, to the detriment of quality.  In essence, if you buy software within the first year of its release - expect the bugs - you get to play guinea pig.

also, even the best beta testers can't find ALL the issues.  and i imagine the programmers had a hard time keeping up with the comments from the beta tester peanut gallery.

sometimes, it takes someone with no experience at all (in a program or otherwise) to "break" something.

my .02 worth - and enjoy carrera, folks....  me, i'm sticking with poser - it was the first 3D program i managed to wrap my poor little mind around.

A sidenote: I've gotten my C6Pro links.  Downloading now.  But I won't have the time to install it until sometime tomorrow night, at the earliest.

The Fab 5 apps.

C4D,Max,Maya,XSI,Lightwave

All can do every thing Poser does better, thay have for years.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

*melikia:  it does little good to whine & moan about buggy software that's just been released.  while i agree they should wait until at least 90% of them are worked out, in this world where a hint becomes a rumor becomes a fact becomes an I WANT IT NOW - they speed things up, to the detriment of quality.  In essence, if you buy software within the first year of its release - expect the bugs - you get to play guinea pig.

*You're right, of course.   The only trouble is that one year from now Carrara 7 will be hitting the streets, possibly with the C6 bugs addressed, but with a phalanx of new defects all its own, no doubt.   And the  "I WANT IT NOW" mentality is very largely engineered by the software's vendors (talking generally here, not just about DAZ).

beryld, ZBrush is nothing like either Modo or Hexagon (oh, well, they updated the ZBrush software without updating the product documentation, so ZBrush does have that in common with Hexagon).  

I still think anyone using C6 for modelling will need to be pretty desperate.   Poor old Miki 2 in the C6 Model page looks as if she has just escaped from a nightmare  acupuncture session, jointly administered by Sweeney Todd and Jack the Ripper.

The Fab 5 apps.

C4D,Max,Maya,XSI,Lightwave

*All can do every thing Poser does better, thay have for years.

*And you can probably get Poser, Vue and a modelling application (even if it isn't Wings or Blender) for the price of any one of them.

Quote - The Fab 5 apps.

C4D,Max,Maya,XSI,Lightwave

*All can do every thing Poser does better, thay have for years.

*And you can probably get Poser, Vue and a modelling application (even if it isn't Wings or Blender) for the price of any one of them.

Just saying if a app has hair, cloth ,rigs, morphs then it will do what Poser does.
$$$, the more ya spend the better tools ya get.
The Fab 5's is worth the price you pay.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

If you value your time, even as a hobbyist, then it may be worth the price to go to a "big app" if you can get away from the enormous waste of time it can be to try to integrate Poser, a higher-quality renderer, dynamic cloth, hair, modeling, texturing in 3d, yadda yadda (it has been for me).  It's pretty nice to have nearly-everything in one app instead of five different ones, for the single-person art department.

"beryld, ZBrush is nothing like either Modo or Hexagon (oh, well, they updated the ZBrush software without updating the product documentation, so ZBrush does have that in common with Hexagon)."

I don't know. I've read other merchant/users that have both Zbrush and Modo and say they are simular. More so when Modo 301 comes out. not in UI but as in many features. In UI, I thought Zbrush sucked the big one, right along with Truespace. LOL Guess we'll know in a few weeks or less.

I never said or even would have thought that Zbrush was anything like Hex. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.

Does lightwave have hair?

"If you value your time, even as a hobbyist, then it may be worth the price to go to a "big app" if you can get away from the enormous waste of time it can be to try to integrate Poser, a higher-quality renderer, dynamic cloth, hair, modeling, texturing in 3d, yadda yadda (it has been for me)."

Agreed which is essentially my point with the comic strip
there is NOTHING wrong with wanting to use poser figures in other apps.
the problem is that too many want their personal exotic program and character
"feature" of poser shoe horned into these other apps that were not designed
to implement POSER'S version of these "features"

and if those heartlocked  features dont quite come over to the big app
the whole effort is considered a failure or a big lie on the part of the company
claiming to support poser content in their other app.

and if I may  be even more Frank about it
the prevailing standard that many user seem to be using to determine
wether Such &such  program truly support poser format is
undeniably the **DAZ bloatware abombination/bug that I refer to as
ubiquitous  "V"CHICK!!   4.(whatever)
**
One can only wonder what percentage  the posts complaining about the new Carrara 6 pro
are about: M3,The G2 Male Figs, P7 Sydney,Apollo Max V2,V3 etc Hiro David,M2
Stonemasons awesome sci fi Sets  etc..

I would guess Not many.

But if  "V "Chick Dont  work right in this equation, work its a wash, a failure, a rip off.
 
***"V chick s butt is crumpled" "V"Chicks eyes wont move" "V" chicks skin shaders didnt come over"
***

I remember once someone complained to Kuryome (sp?),the maker of interposer pro,
that there was a "bug" in his plugin when using V4.

Kuryome replied rather frankly yes**" V4 IS the BUG".**

I remember my early days of exporting posette and dork as Obj files and
manually applying textures in bryce 2 to render in "another app"

today we have MANY reasonable  options to get poser figs into other apps to render
(DAZ Coladda/fbx,interposer, carrara pro, VUE even the $90 low cost vue easel 6 imports complete poser animation now.)

with all these options  its truly a shame that Some user are allowing themselves to be  limited
and held hostage in poser by one over hyped idolized figure.

cheers

"VChick bug": Whatever. I haven't installed V4. My initial tests were with the MilDog, V3, Traveler's belly dance costume on Steph Petite, and the Heavy Horse. All of them had problems, some of which I've traced down, some of which (crumples in the HH mesh, caused by screwy assumptions about constraints I think) were total show stoppers.

My complaint is with the hype, not the functionality. And I'm truly tired of hearing the word "hype" used (even by me any more) as if it were a synonym for "lies." I suppose I'm one of the few not surprised by the lies. Welcome to the club, if you are just visiting.

Conceding the pretty special problems addressed here, such has having to give up eyesocket morphs that carry the eyeball along and hand morphs that control the dozen+ elements of the fingers (in Miki, not just the divine Ms V), I'm Ok with having to make some compromises to get the additional value in C5P. It was faster than P5, had vastly better lighting, offered better handling of cameras and shaders, and held its own when P6 came out. I could bring a finished PZ3 in and an hour later be zipping through refinement renders that took minutes rather than hours. Worth every penny, and if that's all you are looking for, and you don't need P7 support, find C5P on EBay.

I am not Ok with being misled about C6P handling PZ3 files transparently. Frankly, it doesn't handle them at all, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm not going to pay $100 for a plug-in that DAZ marketers claim with solve the problem (Fool me once, FU). Without TransPoser, importing PZ3 files means spending almost as long fixing them as it took to create them.

I am not Ok with being told that I was getting support for dynamic hair and cloth, only to learn that it's support for THEIR dynamic hair, and "Oh, heck's sake, did someone say 'cloth'? We didn't mean, you know, freakin' 'CLOTH'? But you just wait! We'll get you some and it will be just perfect!! That's a personal  promise!"
I'm not Ok with failing to mention that the single thing that prevents me from using C5P with Poser, incompatibility with P7, would be retained in C6P in spite of breathless BS about full Poser support.

Back to my Blender tutorials.
M

Quote - "V chick s butt is crumpled" "V"Chicks eyes wont move" "V" chicks skin shaders didnt come over"

***Well, considering the common big problem is not so much Victoria 4 as proper handling of ERC channels, as it partly was in Kuroyume's case (now fixed pretty nicely btw) and as it is in Carrara's case as Mick points out, I think it's not too much to ask for DAZ to support their own flagship figure in their own flagship modeling/rendering app.  There certainly have been some very poor bugs in the first releases of V4, but the current one really seems to be okay.  All the embedded magnet junk doesn't have any use outside of Poser, but it's nearly all intended for conforming clothing anyway, and if you're going to one of the bigger apps then it's reasonable to try to work with their various implementations of dynamic cloth as an alternative to conforming clothing where necessary imo.  Outside of that, the main thing that you seem to have to give up when you get rid of the magnets seems to be boobie movement morphs, not a big deal when going to a heavy modeling/rendering app.

Quote - it does little good to whine & moan about buggy software that's just been released.  while i agree they should wait until at least 90% of them are worked out, in this world where a hint becomes a rumor becomes a fact becomes an I WANT IT NOW - they speed things up, to the detriment of quality.  In essence, if you buy software within the first year of its release - expect the bugs - you get to play guinea pig.

DAZ|Studio was a working beta for roughly a year before it was released to the public. > Quote - also, even the best beta testers can't find ALL the issues.  and i imagine the programmers had a hard time keeping up with the comments from the beta tester peanut gallery.

Agreed. Us Mac users have an easier time of it though... our boxes are relatively consistent. I just got done plonking a huge chunk of cash down for a family member's upcoming funeral, so it'll be a bit before I can get any new toys (and explains why I'm going to have to make my old dual G5 Mac stretch out a year or two longer). That said, it'll give me time to see what other folks can do with it for a month or two. OTOH, I like the potential I'm seeing here. (Now if someone coughs up a Linux version of either? Screw it; I can deal with minor bugs in that case). /P

Quote - If you value your time, even as a hobbyist, then it may be worth the price to go to a "big app" if you can get away from the enormous waste of time it can be to try to integrate Poser, a higher-quality renderer, dynamic cloth, hair, modeling, texturing in 3d, yadda yadda (it has been for me).  It's pretty nice to have nearly-everything in one app instead of five different ones, for the single-person art department.

Exactly. Me, I'd be happy with four proggies: AC3D for modelling, export the .obj, integrate with the Poser stuff in Carrara, with D|S for light and occasional use otherwise. Maybe use GIMP for touch-ups and other stuff. It kinda simplifies things, and the whole wad would be dirt-cheap and nearly seamless when compared to the expense and array of what most folks use nowadays. /P

Quote - Does lightwave have hair?

The current LW solution for things like hair, fur, and grass is Sasquatch by Worley Labs.

http://www.worley.com/

I haven't used it, so I can't testify to it.

Quote - Now if someone coughs up a Linux version of either?

I've personally known maybe one or two people who have used Linux for anything other than for servers -- and I"ve known a LOT of PC users over the years.  If e-frontier were to offer a Linux-based version of Poser Pro, they might sell 250 copies.  Or DAZ with C6Pro tailored for Linux.

If I'm ever feeling adventurous: I might consider setting up Linux on a dual-boot.

This is coming from a guy who currently supports a couple of hundred Linux-using graphics developers, (not counting servers - just devs who have and use Linux professionally @ their workstations).

A couple of years ago, diffusion of distributions and low marketshare had kept DAZ out of the Linux biz (and for good reason... when you only have so many programmers, you keep 'em where they can best maintain the bottom line.)

Nowadays, things have changed.

If, for instance, DAZ ported D|S for use with Ubuntu, contacted Canonical (the company that distributes Ubuntu), and had them ship D|S and the free basic content packages with every Ubuntu download (with a few neat announcements and etc)?

You'd likely see a doubling of Poserdom's active user base inside of six months, with perhaps a nice percentage (not great, but nice) of those becoming regular customers.

No, I'm not kidding.

Ubuntu (and thus Desktop Linux) usage is growing almost exponentially, and the number of people who would be willing to play with and fall in love with 3D/CG artwork would likely grow along with that curve.

So why Ubuntu and not (fave distro)? Because Ubuntu is a clear leader in desktop Linux, and while I myself prefer Fedora Core, Fedora Core (RedHat) wouldn't ship it w/  D|S installed due to their own philosophies concerning proprietary code - based apps.

So, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss an OS there...

/P

Quote - So, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss an OS there...

Oh.....I wouldn't dream of dismissing Linux.  It clearly has it's place in the current computing environment -- a place that's mostly reserved for pros and for corporations -- and for IT types.

But I'll also not hesitate to observe that desktop Linux is nowhere near Windows numbers, user-base wise.  The numbers just aren't there.  And your workaday 3D types aren't likely to all start switching, pell-mell, over to desktop Linux anytime soon.  Plus there's the added consideration that Linux developers probably aren't even thinking about 3D users, for the most part.  3D is likely a very, very tiny portion of the overall Linux market.

I have no doubt that Linux is the stable, secure, wonderful OS that it's loyal aficionados (mostly IT types) claim that it is.  I used to use Unix back in the day, and I've used Linux redhat on a server for data backups in the past, too.  So I've touched it.  But I haven't noticed a general run on Linux coming from anywhere except in the room with the raised floors & circulating air vents in the tiles.  I don't doubt that there are graphics companies which are going that way -- but I seriously tend to doubt that the average freelancer is.

The problem with an OS like Linux is that it requires the user to know something.  It isn't plug 'n play.  Mac does that better -- and so does Windows (for the most part).

I've known Linux 'experts' who had to hire a Linux EXPERT to get something to work for them.  Which is good for the EXPERT, I suppose.  But it can be a problem for the 'expert'.

......but I'll acknowledge that I might have an easier time getting certain programs to work in Linux that I would in Vista 64bit.  A co-worker of mine bought a new PC a few weeks ago, and decided to go with Vista 64bit.  He's not having fun. 

Attached Link: Check it.

interesting that trueSpace is right after Max... and Flash is a modeling program???

Quote - interesting that trueSpace is right after Max... and Flash is a modeling program???

Those rankings are based on animation software.

I think that Peng's point was more along the lines of a free application beating out the more costly pro apps for distribution numbers.  Not unusual, for something that's free.  I'd be curious to know if the number of active Blender users is anything near the number of downloaders -- kind of like Poser freestuff downloads.  I suspect that many people download, but never actually use.

In any case, Linux is an OS with a predominantly specialized user base at the moment.  It's a chancy thing to attempt to get Windows apps to work under Linux.  You might or you might not be able to do so successfully.  That fact alone is probably enough to keep most people away from Linux for the time being.  As for what the future holds........on this score: I don't know.  Vista hasn't exactly taken the computing world by storm -- yet.  But if Microsoft makes their new flagship OS more backwards-compatible, then they will have solved around 90% of their current problems.

BTW - that's also an issue to keep in mind for those who occasionally insist that e-frontier needs to create a whole new version of Poser with re-written, new technology from the ground up.  The loss of the use of substantial reams of existing Poser content wouldn't be received gladly by many in the Poser community.  Even if the sacrifice meant a fantastic new program.

Quote - > Quote - interesting that trueSpace is right after Max... and Flash is a modeling program???

Those rankings are based on animation software.

which is even more amazing. I use tS everyday... and not for it's animation. thats.... not it's best feature.

I'm not surprised.  Truespace has been around for ages.  People recognize the name, and download it to try it.  Maybe they had it back in 1998 or so, and are curious about new features.  The download rankings don't mean that people are actually using it more often than some others for that reason.

I'm really not surprised about Blender being 1st either.  Free is free.  They download it out of curiosity, load it, struggle with it's wacky interface for a while, then get some real animation work done in Maya, Max, or XSI.

Just kidding of course.  Maybe.

http://www.blendernation.com/2007/06/04/blender-no1-animation-packaged-based-on-number-of-installed-copies/

That List 99.9% of any one that owns a 3D owns poser also.

Who don't own Poser,ya know.

So I am skeptical about that list

And I think the list would defer from Pro to Hobbyist as to who uses what app's.

And the Pros would defer also.

Charter animators would most use XSI,Maya

Sci-Fi LW huge work space.

How big is LW's work space ?

You can actually fit the solar system in it or 10,000,000,000 ^1,000,000,000 Poser work places in it.OK I might have gotten carried away with the 0's ;)

TrueSpace has / had free versions and cheep versions also.

Also I would think deferent languages speaking 3D Artist would rank differently.

So ya need 1000 deferent list Pro,CA,Games, Hobbits etc etc.
 Now it's getting ridiculous

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

Quote - That List 99.9% of any one that owns a 3D owns poser also.

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.  Positive thinking is good for the soul, so they say.  I work with at least 10 people who I know for a fact have never even seen the Poser interface (much less used it), and yet most of them have been doing '3D' for the better part of a decade.  Hmmm. Besides, if that were even remotely close, the makers of Poser would be among the wealthiest 3D software manufacturers in the world, because it would mean virtually every single person who own any other 3D app, including those millions of  Blender users, and the over 6 million seats of 3dsmax (legal or not), would also own Poser.  Man, I'd venture to guess that means... pause to factor in the users of Maya, XSI, Houdini, Lightwave, C4D, Carrara, A:M, and all the dozens of other apps... Poser must have a user base in excess of 20 million people or so.  Content creators must be rolling in it!  I'm just kidding of course.  But not really.

Quote - Who don't own Poser,ya know.

Sorry, I must raise my hand in shame.  I was thinking about getting it, but all I ever see in the forum here are complaints, sprinkled with a few words of praise here and there.  Makes for entertaining reading though, if yer bored.

Quote - I think that Peng's point was more along the lines of a free application beating out the more costly pro apps for distribution numbers.  Not unusual, for something that's free.  I'd be curious to know if the number of active Blender users is anything near the number of downloaders -- kind of like Poser freestuff downloads.  I suspect that many people download, but never actually use.

To be honest, that would be about the same across-the-board. Incidentally, Blender is predominantly installed under Linux (the OS which it was primarily built for), which is why I used it as a reference. All of that said, the poll I referenced was based on the number of respondents by a general 3D mag, not by the folks at Blender. > Quote - In any case, Linux is an OS with a predominantly specialized user base at the moment.  It's a chancy thing to attempt to get Windows apps to work under Linux.  You might or you might not be able to do so successfully. 

I repeat: Blender runs natively in Linux. As does AC3D (which I have). As does Shake, Maya, Wings3D(IIRC), POV-Ray, and a whole panopoly of other 3D proggies. This also explains why I use GIMP and not Photoshop - even on my Mac. The only thing really missing for my workflow IMHO is a cheap compositor (Poser or D|S - Shake is hella pricey). > Quote - BTW - that's also an issue to keep in mind for those who occasionally insist that e-frontier needs to create a whole new version of Poser with re-written, new technology from the ground up.  The loss of the use of substantial reams of existing Poser content wouldn't be received gladly by many in the Poser community.  Even if the sacrifice meant a fantastic new program.

1. Porting and re-writing a program are two vastly different things. I could most likely take the existing OSX/Intel codebase for Poser and port it to Linux with only moderate effort - most of that spent in porting the UI (both are BSD-flavored *nixes). D|S would be almost trivial to do (as it uses Qt for its UI library set). 2) on tangent, re-writing a program from scratch does not mean loss of compatibility: see also D|S and Poser 4 content (which is what they originally wrote it for). Just some thoughts. /P

If Poser were re-written from the ground up, I'd be extremely surprised if all existing content still worked with the program afterwards.  But I have to admit that stranger things have happened.  I just wouldn't bet that way.

I wonder how many (free) Blender downloaders are using Linux?

I downloaded a copy of Blender several years ago.  I had an eye to using it at my job at the time.  It got briefly looked over: I never installed it.  Other distractions mattered more back then.  And now.......?  I've got enough to learn already, and not enough hours in the day to learn it + plus time to do everything else that I have to do.  Blender isn't on my radar screen at the moment, free or not.

Quote - Sorry, I must raise my hand in shame.  I was thinking about getting it, but all I ever see in the forum here are complaints, sprinkled with a few words of praise here and there.  Makes for entertaining reading though, if yer bored.

Oh, I've duly noted flame wars on highend sites, too.  I think that it's more of a human nature thing than it is of a software thing.

As for the shame of not having Poser on your hard drive -- admitting that the problem exists is the first step to fixing it.  You haven't been addicted yet: so you'll need to follow the 12 steps of AA in reverse order -- so that you'll become as addicted as the rest of us.

I once heard a stat that Poser is THE most pirated software in the world.  If that's true, then it's possible that Poser has more than 20,000,000 users.  Too bad for e-frontier that they aren't getting paid for those extra seats.  The president of e-frontier might be among the world's 100 richest men.

Quote -
Oh, I've duly noted flame wars on highend sites, too.  I think that it's more of a human nature thing than it is of a software thing.

Flame wars?  Sure.  Outright bitching and complaining up and down about the software they (don't) know how to use?  Not nearly as much as I see here.

Quote - I once heard a stat that Poser is THE most pirated software in the world.  If that's true, then it's possible that Poser has more than 20,000,000 users.

Eh, I'd be surprised if Poser sells more than 60,000 licensed units on any given release.  Maybe they do, but I don't care.  So if they have a user base in the millions, that's really a hell of a lot of priated copies being used.  3dsmax is widely known as one of the most pirated 3D applications out there, but we know that has to do with it being so tightly connected to the gaming industry.  You know, all those millions of young gamers who wanted to make mods for their 'levels' first turned to gMax, which was free, then quickly decided to get the 'better' version... which is 3dsmax.  Ooops!... it's $3k, and they've already maxed-out mommy's credit card on porn this month!  Time to pay a visit to the torrent underground.

Quote - Flame wars?  Sure.  Outright bitching and complaining up and down about the software they (don't) know how to use?  Not nearly as much as I see here.

Viewed from that standpoint -- possibly true.  Sad, but possibly true.

As for highender's seeming built-in prejudice against Poser: if so few of them have it, or have even tried it -- then how did they form their solid opinions against it?  Very likely by osmosis from their peers..................

I see Poser figures and Poser animations being used at the supposedly "pro" level all of the time.  I've seen national magazine print ads that were clearly done in Poser.  I've also seen Poser animations used regularly in places like History Channel & Biography Channel documentary shows -- as well as many other places.  I would term such use as "professional level".

It's quick & easy to slap together a 3D re-creation of a real-life crime in Poser -- and then use the animation for illustration purposes on an FBI Files type of show.  I've seen this done often.  I've also seen plenty of Poser animations put to similar use elsewhere on television.

Quote - Eh, I'd be surprised if Poser sells more than 60,000 licensed units on any given release.  Maybe they do, but I don't care.  So if they have a user base in the millions, that's really a hell of a lot of priated copies being used.  3dsmax is widely known as one of the most pirated 3D applications out there, but we know that has to do with it being so tightly connected to the gaming industry.  You know, all those millions of young gamers who wanted to make mods for their 'levels' first turned to gMax, which was free, then quickly decided to get the 'better' version... which is 3dsmax.  Ooops!... it's $3k, and they've already maxed-out mommy's credit card on porn this month!  Time to pay a visit to the torrent underground.

Not surprising.  3DS Max's sister app, AutoCAD, is heavily pirated, too.  That goes with the territory these days.

Rabid gamers?  They are notorious on a number of levels.  Hey -- stealing items is a major aspect of many RPG's.  So why not extend such behavior to the real-world software needed to build the game in the first place?  We've all heard reports about violent murders being commited in Southeast Asia over events that transpired in an RPG.  But I won't get into that here.

Poser animations, or Poser content animated in something else? It's very common to bang out a morph/customization in Poser, export as a whole textured .obj, then import to {high-end-app}, rig, and fire away (if the rigs haven't already been pre-built for the base figure in the first place). Custom 3D humanoid meshes are expensive, and building one takes a lot of time.

--

Meanwhile, I didn't mean to distract around Blender, just that it shows a whole lotta Linux usage out there (the majority of Blender installs are in Linux). Point is, if DAZ could squeeze in D|S to a major distro, it could very easily build a much larger userbase than it has today.

Whether Poser does or not? Dunno; they don't have the freebie app option (though a port of Poser 4/5 as a freebie version would work well enough).

Meanwhile, yep... 3DS Max and etc. are pirated heavily (ironically, in spite of C-DILLA or whatever kind of dongle Discreet is using nowadays).

/P

I would say it was Photoshop. I'm one of the rare ones that does not have a copy of it. I don't have any theft ware. But I have not found a single person when I go out to a bar or store or where ever and ask, " Do you have Photshop?" the answer is always yes and 99.9% tell you they got it for free and believe that it is legal to have that copy. I have even asked cops and have been told that by them. So I would say Photoshop is the most pirated software.

Now, many of us that have something to say about poser are not newbies as devilsreject want's to believe. Poser users are very passionate about thier app. So emotion tends to take over sense. It has nothing to do with not knowing how to use the software. Don't forget that you need poser to rig if you model you own stuff. Poser rigging may not be the best but it is anuniversal rigging that many apps can read. Thus making Poser a needed tool, specially if your a merchant. It gives you a wider range of user sales.

Hmm I don't know how applicable this is to this thread still, but I love Carrara and can't wait to get c6p.  Now that I have learned how to pose in it, I barely have any use for Poser at all anymore.  I do still use it, for me the textures are easier to apply in Poser - then I transfer all to Carrara.  I would rather dig my eyes out with spoons these days, than to render in Poser.

Maybe I'm so happy with it because I don't read the complaint boards : p

"Maybe I'm so happy with it because I don't read the complaint boards : p"

Or you have not bought C6 yet. LOL

I hate to say this, but I've known people to do things like purchase one of Adobe's Creative Suites packages at the student price -- using their son's college student status as the justification.  And then they proceeded to use the software to run their own web business.

shrug  At least they paid for approx. half of it.  I suppose that beats stealing it outright.

Devil Reject you beleave what ever you want to.

Penguinisto, A exspearanced 3D Artist with a Fab 5 app could produce a V4 in 8 hours.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

Quote - Penguinisto, A exspearanced 3D Artist with a Fab 5 app could produce a V4 in 8 hours.

Nah, no way, regardless of how good the individual might be.  Maybe the raw modeling - maybe - but not modeling, texturing, rigging, and all the damn morph targets, no.  More like a thousand hours or more.  If it were a simple 8 hour job, somebody would do it and make loads of money on Turbosquid.  Look at Masha, imo a pretty good model, rigged and with a few morph targets - distantly behind any Poser figure in terms of flexibility.

Somehow, I don't think that DAZ has 8 hours of development time invested in V4.

That's kinda silly to say.

I mean we all know how software companies are.  If they could feasibly spend less than 8 hours on a full model there would be hundreds of them out by daz right now - that had come out since V4 no less....

Quote - Somehow, I don't think that DAZ has 8 hours of development time invested in V4.

I'm just talking a girl that looks like V4 or any Poser or 3D female mesh.

We are not talking about any morphs.

I should have said that to start with,my bad.

They modeled V4 to morph alot of deferent ways so that took some planning.

And to make all those morphs took some time I am sure.

But if ya was using one of the Fab 5 app's ya would not use morphs to make her look deferent ya would just move the vertices.

Morphing to make ya mesh look like another girl is a Poser thing.

Modo is a wicked modeler and has a automatic Mapper that rocks.

I would buy Modo just for the Mapper alone.

Would be nothing to model, map a girl in Modo.

Throw the mesh in a app that has automatic rigs and the basic mesh is done.

Slap some dynamic hair and a dynamic dress on her bang it's done 8 hours easy, seriously.

Anyways if ya think I am insane on the fab 5 forms.

Ask Artist that has made charter meshes and can show you there meshes how long to make a 3D Mesh girl.

If thay can not show you a character mesh they made then there not qualified.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

If it's so blinking easy to create a V4 quality chick (not counting the day or two it would cost to create the morphs) why aren't any of the pros spending a weekend or two to create some competition for Daz? Modo has cool mapping tools (when they don’t crash) but I doubt you’ll get by with the automatic maps if your model has any complexity.

"But if ya was using one of the Fab 5 app's ya would not use morphs to make her look deferent ya would just move the vertices.

Morphing to make ya mesh look like another girl is a Poser thing."

Moving a vert is a morph. Does not matter if it is one of your "Fab 5" or not. They all use Weight maps, vert maps, displacment maps and so on. It does not matter what they are called. They all do pretty much the same thing. They save and or create vert movement, which as far as I know, is a morph. I would think so because they can be turned on or off, beside being called morphs by ther "Fab 5" creators.

Am I missing something here?

Well, displacement maps are totally different - they don't move geometry at all, they just create the appearance of it at render time.  Vertex maps and weight maps seem to be a way of defining falloff for various things, including how joints deform in rigging a figure, but aren't quite the same thing as a morph target since they're never actually stored as such.

Quote - Would be nothing to model, map a girl in Modo.

After viewing many, many attempts on CGSociety and other places by experienced modelers, I don't think so.  I'm thinking of a lot of WIP threads I've watched and I don't recall anybody with high quality results that took 8 hours to model and texture, more like months.  I think you're giving too much credit to automatic mapping too.

Quote - Throw the mesh in a app that has automatic rigs and the basic mesh is done.

Uh, no, it doesn't work like that at all.  Just face rigging (if you're too awesome to design expression morph targets) is horribly finicky and difficult.  Rigging hands is also extremely difficult even with something fairly easy like Biped.

I'm sometimes amazed by the plethora of misinformation circulating around here regarding highend software, especially coming from some ill-informed Poser users who clearly have, at the very least, only a foggy understanding of what they're talking about.

Quote: "Morphing to make ya mesh look like another girl is a Poser thing."

Whatever.  Morphing in highend apps is extremely common. You move verts around to create a morph target, which is then activated for things like facial expression and articulation in animation.  In 3dsmax we have a Morpher modifier, which allows you to load dozens of morph targets to a base figure.  All the highend apps I know of have something similar.  Just ask the folks over at Weta Digital about the 800+ facial expression morphs created for the Gollum character in LOTR.

Quote: "Ask Artist that has made charter meshes and can show you there meshes how long to make a 3D Mesh girl."*

I can probably model the subD form of a girl in less than an afternoon.  However, that's not including texture mapping and rigging, and it's not including a lot of detail work.  Unwrapping the UVs, and painting detailed texture maps for diffuse, specular, bump, epidermal, subdermal, and reflection can take a couple days.  If I'm using photo textures, then not quite as long, but still not in 8 hours.

Quote: "If thay can not show you a character mesh they made then there not qualified."

Just take a look at my gallery.  Everything except the girl in my Avatar was modelled, rigged, textured, and rendered by me.  The girl I only did the rigging, texturing, and render.

Funny how the modo tutorials state that vertex maps are morphs, with the power of different types of fall-offs.. But my point, which you missed, was that anything that moves or given the apperance of change is a morph. Shade weight maps that I have used are called morphs too. I would classify displacment mapping as morphing also as it gives the illusion of change. Then again my post was about someone stating that morphs are a poser thing and I was pointing out that it was not just a Poser thing and used buy the so called "Fab 5" also.

One thing that can be done in Poser is the transfer of bones from one figure to another. Helps if they have the same type of grouping but not need if you know how to use the setup room.

Paloth

DAZ rules Poser.

But what made A,V,M 3's and V4

Is all the venders making stuff for them.

So if you want to compete with DAZ you need 100's of venders making stuff for your mesh.

If ya was going to be a vender.

You would probably make more $$$ if ya made cloths for DAZ,Poser charters.

then to make ya own mesh.

beryld

ah yes and no lol.

they make Poser morphs buy moving vertices.

how they get moved or what there called is not important.

what is important is.

can you remodel the mesh ?

Polycount ?

when ya make V4 morphs you can not remodel the mesh at all.

and you half to deal with a high polycount. its a pain.

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_T_HyperNURBS.htm

His name is Chrome

if I want to change his looks if I need to I can remodel a part

his poly count is a lot lower in C4D cause of hyperNurbs.

deferent apps have deferent slang but

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_Tutorial/C4D9/RK_C4D9_Weights.htm

its a hyoernurb thing

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_Tutorial/RK_Sub_D_Quads.htm

There is also maps for rigs.

most the time a morph in a fab 5 app would be facial expression.

don't use morphs to make a new character like in poser with 1000 deferent V4 Versions with deferent names but same mesh.

Pjz99

a lot learn there 3D tools but modeling parts of charters or what ever and never get finished.

very few can model a character from head to toe.

a lot of cars thou lol.

XSI has a killer automatic rigger.some are better then others

Devilsreject

Kool meshes.

I'm amazed at how polite people are here at times.

If we had a mesh and wanted it to look like another mesh we don't make morphs to do so.

We don't confine are self to a unimesh do we.

Ya morphs for a smile but not a new character.

Anyways don't want to argue with anyone I am just trying to explain stuff to broden everyone's horizons

think that is the first responsibility of a Artist.

Anyways ya can import V4 or any Poser mesh in to a fab 5 app or any app that has the tools and animate her in it if ya want to.
might need new rigs

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

LOL. That's OK, I just realized, some of us need to learn to spell "by" and not "Buy" Points at himself.

Not to over-argue the point, but vertex maps in themselves are maps - they can be used to define falloff for joint morphing in rigging, but they can be used for completely different things besides e.g. applying "dirt" shading at render time, or falloff for dynamic cloth constraints, or all sorts of things.  Looking in the documentation for 3ds Max, May and Cinema 4D they all say the same thing, your Modo tutorialis notwirhstanding.

Again, missing the point.

Maybe Modo refers to Point Cache (vertex cache) as vertex mapping?  What I mean is (and I've never laid eyes on Modo yet so I don't know for sure) baking vertex motion to a mesh can be considered animation morphing.  I've never really heard it referred to that way, but if that's what they mean, then I understand it.  That's quite different than weight mapping vertices on a rig though.