This is all such a mess! The item should be pulled for investigation at this point. Dementia should respond here. The admin should let outside people do the investigating just like the GOV in the US does (independant counsel). Letting the insiders figure it out is just too incestuous because Dementia is one of the "insiders" too. I don't think people should leave because of this though...if we don't help make new rules, nothing will ever change. We all need to stay and help resolve this now that it is out in the public arena. leaving doesn't solve anything.

On the other hand, where would America be if Pilgrims never left Europe? (Actually, it would probably be a very peaceful, natural ecology habited by Native Americans.) -WTB

Okay...my turn to add some insight. I don't know Dmentia or Stalle personally but have seen both's work and have been quit an admirer of both. I looked at the textures myself and came to the inescapable conclusion that they are far too similar to not be the same base. I'm not saying Dmentia knowingly did anything illegal or unethical. I have a slight theory to how this may have come about. Above, it is written somewheres that Dmentia states that the texture is a mix of different sources and those sources do not include Stalle's. What if...someone ELSE plaguerized Stalle's work...and then...Dmentia used part of THAT to collage her texture together? As far as Dmentia would be concerned, she didn't use Stalle's texture for she had no way of knowing that the texture she DID use contained it without the other person admitting it. So, in light of this possibility, I won't be taking up the torches in hunting down the "monster" that lives up on top of "Frankenstein Hill". Stalle, you have been wronged...but I know not by whom. I'm not part of any clique and am posting this as an unbiased bystander who wants to see an end to public trials and tribulations.

". If Dmentia and the staff quietly changed the texture, they are not only ducking the issue they are backpeddling and imbeding a copyright infringement." This will be the killer. If it turns out that this sort of thing is happening behind the scenes, and clearly with the staff being aware of it... then it is really going to hit the fan.

"Above, it is written somewheres that Dmentia states that the texture is a mix of different sources" Dmentia HAS to know what those sources were - because she has to have permission and liscences to use those sources in a commercial work. You can't simply go grabbing peices without knowing where they came from and using them in products for sale.

I agree, soulhuntre. But let's say the scenario were as follows: (hypothetically speaking) I create a texture. I post it in freestuff. User Joeblow downloads it. Joeblow makes a texture using a chunk of my texture. User Whozit downloads Joeblow's texture and thinks it is so good, she asks him to use it in her commercial project. Joeblow, being someone who doesn't care who's toes he steps on says go right ahead. User Whozit now has fullfilled their obligation of getting permission even though it's my work.

Edriver makes an excellent point, however, if the texture is being changed behind the scenes, then I do believe that is an admission of guilt on some level or another, and apologies, credits and compensation are due. In most countries, ignorance of commiting a crime does not excuse the crime though a Jury may be lenient if the evidence shows that true unawareness existed. -WTB One more thing, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a texture exclusive to a person so long as some percentage of it has been altered? I think I've read that somewhere. -WTB

Pardon the length of this post... but I felt for once like actually saying something. I know I am probably not supposed to, but to hell with it. STAALE: Please tell me which texture on your site is the one you feel was copied, so that I do not have to download every last one till I get it by process of elimination, an a slow pokey old modem, whilst also trying to move :) Thanks :) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lets see if we can work on getting a few facts ironed out: "A place where both the forums and galleries arent spammed with advertisements for a certain clique's work" by InBlack Every vendor here has the same "ads" running that "spam" the place. It is not a clique, it is a benefit provided to ALL merchants. These ads attract sales of their products. With this money, Renderosity pays its very large bills and stays "free" to you. With this money, the artists pay their bills, feed their children, afford to go see a doctor, buy their medication, buy their food, buy their software and clothing... do you begrudge them their human needs and their way of making a living? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Some explaination from the staff about the difference in reactions. In "the hair situation" the item was pulled from sale immediately pending investigation." by soulhuntre Wrong. The hair made by Neftis was never pulled from sale once released, and has stayed on sale from the second it was released. A very fast check for copyright was done when the hair was submitted, which took only a very short time, less than a day, to compare both meshes, was performed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "...just sweeping it under the rug isn't going to work." by soulhuntre Soulhuntre, believe it or not, we all have a life, those of us on staff ;) I realize that must be hard for you to quite grasp. This latest slugfest began whilst most of the staff were out celebrating a Holiday. We are aware of it now, and are doing our best to look into the matter. We do not monitor these forums round the clock. There is only a tiny staff here, volunteers, who squeeze in time between work, families, cooking, cleaning, taking care of our children, attempting to earn a living, (packing to move in my case)... so this affects how fast you will see us moving many times, and how fast we discover the issue. Had one of you not paged me and asked me specifically as the Copyright Forum Mod to please come see this thread and begin trying to help you, I might still not have discovered it on my own. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Letting the insiders figure it out is just too incestuous because Dementia is one of the "insiders" too. by BIA Wrong. Dmentia, is one of you all. She is just one of MANY vendors. You are ALL served by the staff here, equally. Even when it costs us staff more than you can ever know, to maintain that level of courtesy and compassion and professionalism for each of you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What concerns me most in this thread, and the ones previous to it, about Neftis, is that only one side of the story has ever been heard. That of Neftis in fact. Until you hear from me, and also ironically from Dmentia, and see what we have to show, there is no way for any of you to judge what really happened in the Neftis matter of previous times. I have restrained myself from making any accusations be they damning or not, because of my wish to remain neutral as an administrator, and a wish to try to calm you all down, make some peace in the end. I have since been told that I could have spoken, I suppose... though I still doubt that. I am pretty sure it would be considered to not be appropriate conduct for an administrator, so I just keep my mouth shut. That is best for all. I am also concerned about some of you perceiving anyone who agrees at any time as a clique. I do find it amusing almost, except for the very danger you bring to these peoples reputations by this accusation. Truth be told, the very people you think are in a clique are fairly rabidly competitive with one another, and under ordinary day to day circumstances haven't much of a civil word for one another ;) That is just how artists are. It is nothing personal I am sure, and I long ago let it "roll off my back" rather than let myself feel excluded, or somehow "not part of this mysterious clique" that might or might not be out there. What happens in this forum, and the others here, is that you see people join up and fight for similar causes. Each choosing his own cause he as an individual believes in, then disband to join up and fight other causes, sometimes being on very different sides of issues the next time an issue comes up. Never guess that because Artist A, Artist B, and Artist C are agreeing this week on Issue A, means that they are a clique and are going to automatically agree on issue B, or C, next week or the week after. To fear there is a clique as such only shows you do not quite understand how things work here. Dmentia herself is a good example. She is RESPECTED, and almost feared perhaps, by many of the artists who are her peers. But is she liked? Do folks want to hang out with her and schmooze. Not usually. They are too busy competing, and fearing, and so forth to ever make the basis of a real friendship, or a real clique, as these things go. She has friends, I do too. So do you. But cliques? Probably not. One other matter that concerns me, is the flaunting of innacurate "medical" evidence right now as facts. Palm prints actually are VERY similar compared to the much more truly identifying "fingerprints" on the hand. Right now, holding my hand up to compare to this, other than one tiny line, my own palm comes incredibly close to matching. If I scan my palm, and place it upon Vicki, due to her own "palm striations", will it look an awful lot like both Staals and Dmentia's? probably. You see folks, the print of the palm always bears certain resemblances in humans, due to how our muscles deform the skin when we flex the hand. We all have the same set of muscles in the hand. Fingerprints though are another matter entirely. Is there a resemblance between these two textures? Only time will tell. I will perform the same tests I did on this set, as I did on the other one's of Staals that was an issue, and as I did on the one where Neftis took Dmentia's Tesoro Texture. I will need Staal to tell me exactly which texture on his site he is saying this is, since I would not wish to guess, nor have to download them all to hunt, it just would take too long on a modem speed. But will it cause the item to be pulled from the store? I cannot in fact do that. Only my bosses can, when Staal chooses to make an actual copyright complaint.

Being something of a newbie around here, I appreciate your post, Mehndi. I don't know the personalities involved, and my own reaction to this was probably fueled by MoCap's foolish attempt to sell free models from Mr. Furniture. However, having said that, I don't agree with your assessment that most palmprints are the same. Granted, most carry similar aspects because of, as you point out, the muscle system underneath, but after that, the individual characteristics will indeed start to show. And in this case, I agree with InBlack: the similarities and their number are just a little too eerie to be written off as coincidence. However, I hope, for the sake of the community, that someone from Renderosity posts the resolution on this. I think we deserve to know if one of the foremost artists in here has indeed been ripping off texture wraps for personal gain. If not, then I hope we're all mature enough to issue the appropriate apologies. But given what I've seen, I'd prefer to err on the side of caution and see the explanation.

Mehndi, I wasnt referring to the banner ads. I was referring to the dozens of cheesy assembly-line images accompanied by posts such as "I was one of the lucky ones to beta-test Bubba-Anne by Whomever, and she's so wonderful! Shes absolutely perfect! I feel so priveleged having had the chance to work with such a top-notch product. She'll be in the marketplace on Friday, get her right away!". Whenever certain people's products hit the marketplace everyone here has to flip through pages and pages of shameless plugs for items such as these. Of course you need banner ads to generate profit, I have nothing against those. But dont try to make Renderosity out to be a poor, unfortunate non-profit organisation thats just trying to eke out an existance so it can provide its members with a free service either. As for the artists making money -- sure, I have nothing against that. But when their greed overwhelms them to the point that they try to put competitors out of business and steal other artist's free contributions then it has gone too far. As for the topic of clique-ism, I dont expect you to agree Mehndi, seeing as you are a member of that clique. Just as Dmentia and your other friends rushed to unjustly condemn neftis over the braid affair, they are trying to make excuses and cover up Dmentia's stealing of Staale's texture. Your 'evidence' that any texture placed on vicky's hand will look like Staale's texture is a crock. Of the 9 billion people in the world, less than a few hundred of which are marketplace-contributing members of Renderosity, you expect us to believe that the scanned hand of one is IDENTICAL to another, living halfway across the globe? Whatever. Youre telling me that Dmentia's scanned hand (or composite of other scans) has the exact same wrinkles, fine lines and color variations in PRECISELY the same location? I'm sure youre going to convince a lot of people with that futile argument. Dmentia has already proved her guilt with the 'no comment' post immediately followed by her quick editing of the images to remove any likeness of Staale's hand. Too bad that some unbiased people have already purchased and downloaded the offending product, otherwise the cover-up would have went very smoothly indeed. All you've done is proved my point further. Thank you for posting.

As my screen name indicates, I prefer to be elusive and not get involved on a personal level in these or any other discussions. However, for several reasons, I now feel forced to speak. I am a digital artist by profession, pixels have been my trade since 1994. I have known D~Mentia since 1997. Although we were not close friends, as online friendships go, we did stay in touch and spoke ocasionally on the telephone. We lost touch between late 1998 and the early summer of 2000, when I contacted her again to compliment her on her beautiful textures and charming fantasy pieces. Re-initializing contact with her led to a series of artistic collaborations as "Symphony", to which I bring my own pixel/post render skills, and in the creation of textures, in which D~Mentia has skillfully tutored me. As part of "Symphony", I have collaborated very closely with D~Mentia, sharing ideas and working files for painting and texture projects. Having SEEN D~Mentia's working Photoshop and PZ3 files, I can confidently state that her originality and work are uniquely her own. She isn't overly fond of researching projects (which is my predilection)and she does not download or buy textures, preferring to make her own from scratch. And humbly, you must allow me to state that I have the training and experience to recognize when source material is used, and to make the pertinent inquiries. I have seen dozens of original PSD files D~Mentia has made for paintings and textures. She has created every last pixel on them, down to each tiny dragon scale and hair. Why would D~Mentia, who finds such special delight in creating every last tiny detail on her textures, suddenly decide to use a part of someone else's texture? Knowing her methods for work better than anyone here does, I would say that this makes no sense whatsoever. This is a very new medium, and discovering new techniques is one of the things that makes it so wonderful. If D~Mentia was ever in a bind as to how to create a particular effect (and who isn't, at times?), she would always discuss this openly with me (and probably with Anton Kisiel, a master texturist in his own right), and sometimes, we would brainstorm about it and find a way to create the effect without EVER using even one pixel from someone else's copyrighted work. I therefore come forward, NOT as a "clique member" (for goodness' sake, there are some large chips on some people's shoulders) but as an experienced professional who has worked very closely with D~Mentia. And I come forward to say: STOP. Think about this lynch mob you are invoking. Think about the motives, be it control or revenge, that fuel the most vocal participants in this witch hunt. Think about the track record and originality of D~Mentia. Think of all she has shared with the community. I know there are many fledgling texturists, such as myself, who have been guided by her techniques and her personal coaching. Some of these texturists are now "big names" on Renderosity. (aside to all those who have benefitted from D~Mentia's expertise: You know who are, and both gratitude and loyalty are honorable energies). In a mature world, Staale would have contacted D~Mentia with his concerns privately, and the issues - if indeed there are any - could have been resolved without this rabid lynching. At the time of the incident involving "Neftis", who sold a texture based on "Symphony"'s "Tesoro" character for Michael, it was D~Mentia who stepped forward and protested to Neftis. When she did not hear back, she came out publically regarding this issue. "Tesoro" was a collaborative piece, yet D~Mentia stepped forward to defend both our interests, since I eschew the public eye. And although Neftis wrote a letter of apology, admitting plagiarism, we were not reimbursed for the money she made off the plagiarized texture in the time it was in the store. The texture was removed because it plagiarized our hand drawn free texture for Michael, "Tesoro". In closing, I am proud to be associated with D~Mentia as "Symphony", artist and texturist. In the realm of texturing, I do not know of anyone else with such a vast range of styles (she textures everything from clothing to buildings to furniture to mythological beasties to wonderful characters)and such an eye for the most minuscule detail. Knowing D~Mentia's honorable character over the course of 4 years, and having experienced working with her very closely over the last year, common sense tells me that there is no reason, ever, for her to reuse any one else's work in her textures. Elusion

And as to why I'm still posting after I said I had posted my final post here on Renderosity -- someone at Renderosity whose 'work' I greatly admire, almost as a mentor, convinced me that I should stay. So I'm here for a little longer, at least until I get banned for speaking my mind and daring to question certain issues such as this one.

ROFL InBlack, you really live in your own world, don't you dear. Dmentia and I have ever only exchanged one verbal exchange in all our existences that was not considered by most to be "hostile". Ordinarily, I would consider us to be competitors who compete so hard and so strongly against one another, it is almost indecent. Most consider us to be enemies. Shows how much you know about the inner workings in this place. I have said, and will say again, "only time will tell". That means, I plan, as I said, to perform the SAME tests I use in all these cases. No one can get by me. If I find any evidence of one work being built off the other, believe me, I state it. No matter who it is whose work it is build off the others. One last thought, your thing you have against the beta testers showing off renders of what they are testing... that sounds more to me like you sort of resent beta testers in general, since you have not been asked to be one. I guess that would go to your idea there is some mysterious clique you are not a part of. Know how I find my beta testers? Cattle Calls, and also I take them out of my list of those who for one reason or another, needed tech support on one of my products they purchased. I don't know them when they are invited aboard. I in fact, tend to avoid inviting my friends as beta testers, since I need brutal honesty, not someone blowing flattering smoke up my ass. Do they become friends? Sure. We are human. You can't work with someone 4 months during a testing run without learning to like one another, or at least respect eachother. As to Dmentia's guilt or innocence being deemed by her refusing to say anything, does that mean all who refuse to say something are guilty of something? I refused to make a comment as long as I could on the matter of Neftis and the hair. I still refuse. You honestly do NOT want to know what I would have to say. Trust me. It would shatter your dreams and illusions in this fantasy world you are currently living in where you love to challenge the apparent underdog. Some of us, just like to say VERY little. Dmentia is in fact one of those. She rarely ever speaks. Her speaking into the Neftis thread was an extraordinary event actually. Just like me now speaking into this.

So here we go again, Elusion. I DO have a chip on my shoulder -- and that is that everyone be treated equally. I can't abide unfairness, hypocrisy and double-standards. There is irrefutable proof that Dmentia has copied Staales texture, and she has tried to cover it up, yet STILL all I'm seeing is "Dmentia is a really nice person and a talented artist -- why would she copy someones work". I DONT KNOW. It baffles me why someone would, rather than spend 10 minutes at a scanner scanning their own hand, choose to use someone elses work. But the fact is that it has been done, and no amount of "character witnesses" or "portfolios" of her work are going to change it.

"So go ahead, accuse me of fueling a lynch mob April. What goes around comes around. " - InBlack Ok. You're fueling a lynch mob. Are you happy now? As far as Dmentia's response or lack there of... only reasonable response to a lynch mob isn't possible in an online forum. Fortunately. [Or unfortunately] Like I stated in the other tread, same situation, different target. Which one of you guys are going to be the next one? I'm with Wizzard ond this one. pfui

Mehndi, with regards to your remarks about the alleged neftis 'hair' incident, it should be a case of put up or shut up. I know you didn't personally launch the public tirade against neftis, but you are continuing it. If the alleged evidence against neftis was never going to be made public, then the accusation should never have been made public. If you won't offer the evidence publicly still, then please desist from mentioning its alleged existence and from making insinuations. Whatever neftis has done has no bearing on what Dmentia may or may not have done. At least in this case the accuser has offered something in the way of evidence. I certainly hope that Staale follows through with the formal procedure; otherwise this situation will probably remain unpleasantly unresolved. While your comments about silence being no indicator of guilt are true enough, they are interesting when compared to your statement in the sbnox vs. Staale incident: "As it stands now, his refusal does I think rather speak for itself unfortunately." I don't believe sbnox enjoyed a position of being particularly 'respected and feared' by his artistic peers at Renderosity. Funnily enough, his texture wasn't as similar to Staale's as the palm print in question here is, yet you - and indeed, Dmentia - considered it too close. Although the sbnox thread wasn't a witch-hunt (he started the thread and invited comments, so deserved the hosing), there are some interesting comparisons to be made.

"As it stands now, his refusal does I think rather speak for itself unfortunately." Yep, I said that. I will say it again too if I get a lack of cooperation again. So far, no one has told me to go take a flying leap yet though in an effort to compare the two works in question. The above judgement was based upon Sbnox's refusal to provide his texture at full scale for a comparison, yet wishing me to come out on his side and judge him innocent. I cannot in fact do that, unless I have both textures to compare completely, in a logical and scientific fashion. That is the only fair way. When I manage to compare these, then no doubt lots of people who right now are holding their peace will speak out if they wish, I am sure. As to re-addressing the Neftis matter, it irked me to see it brought back into this thread, and even see whole new webs and spins added to it by those who either cannot read, or have a serious attention deficit problem. There is is, AGAIN, in this thread. I'm just fed up with it all, and decided to finally say this is just a bunch of bollocks. This matter of "this clique and that clique" crucifying Neftis. There is no clique, though I WILL grant you, there was a public hanging frontier style.

Mehndi Will you be comparing Staales work to the original BS texture or the recently altered BS texture? Opps ... should have spelled out Bobby Sue. zap

I'm starting to take offense from your personal attacks and insults, Mehndi... So far you have called me: -illiterate -having an attention deficit problem -living in my own world/living in a fantasy world -not having a life Can you please grow up and present your arguments without resorting to childish name calling?

Well, if Staale did not fill out a formal complaint, why are we all bickering? (Actually, I am not bickering much, on this one, as I am too busy having a life, for a change.) But, my lil bicker is still this...Why would someone of Dmentia's caliber risk copyright infringement for a palm? She has the talent to just, well, even, DRAW a bump map for a hand and use any old cruddy hand, like the stock Vicki hand, and get by with that. It's not like she stole some lips off a porn site, or anything. We don't look at palms, much. We look at nipples and lips. Eyes, in the gallery. Be honest...How many of y'all even look at the palms AT ALL? And, it is not the musculature of the palm that convicts criminals, but, the lines, as in fingerprints. (My oldest daughter is a Quantico dropout.) Even my own right hand looks so suspiciously like Staale's hand. Why? Because we do the same thing for a living and the same muscles of the palm get exercised. Just my little thoughts. Pop...pop...pop!!!

Mehndi, the neftis aspect to this thread was added by those who see hypocrisy from Dmentia and her supporters. I don't believe anyone has said that neftis was necessarily innocent, just that a lynch mob attacked her publicly with no evidence of guilt offered publicly. The sheer number of attackers in the neftis thread makes an interesting comparison to the handful supporting Staale here, who at least posted some public evidence to back his public accusation. No matter how irritated you feel about the neftis thing, you should not keep alluding to her guilt while suggesting folk desist from 'lynching' Dmentia. Of course, it doesn't behove those who saw the neftis incident as terrible to engage in the same practises themselves... sbnox's reaction to your adjudication offer may have been because he was guilty, or it may have been because he believed you prejudged him. His silence did not indicate guilt (though his 'work' almost certainly did).

Sbnox's reaction was one made in instant messages and in an email to me. I did not see fit to publish those. Basically though, he wanted a show of faith in him from me. I am not much on faith. Give me something I can work with ;) Give me the textures in other words. I cannot now, nor did I then come jumping to one side of this or the other. Not sure about the others in this thread. All I can do is what I am very good at, determine if one texture is a derivative of the other. I am waiting on Staale to point out to me which one of his textures on his site this is a derivative of, so I can download it and compare. I am in the middle of packing for a move, so really don't have alot of time to allocate to experimentation right now, and need people to just work with me here ;) InBlack... please dont assume that you are being singled out by every word I write. If you believe I have addressed you, then I apologize, but I honestly have not had much to say to you personally in this other than the short quotes to correct or address statements made by you much earlier in the thread. I would just a soon avoid speaking to you at all, really. This thinking everything I write, or others write, is to you personally is about as silly as thinking there is some huge secret clique out there defending Dmentia, not letting you beta test, and purposely irritating you with postings of images you don't want to see of what is being tested by whom. All I see are two very silent artists, Staale and Dmentia, and alot of us being loudmouths. As to which version would be compared, there has not in fact been a change in the for sale version of the product at all. It is still the same one it was earlier. To substitute one product for another would take staff help to Dmentia. All she can do is what may or may not have happened, change her advertising through her advertising control room. Actual file changes of what is for sale are a whole new ball of wax entirely, requiring reupload, new testing even, deciding if it is a "new submission" or just an old one that has a minor update, all that stuff. There has been no change in files.

Perhaps, some of us who jumped on Neftis, had our own, private reasons. Wrongs done that we did not publicy air. In my case, this was true. My assistant purchased the "Marilyn". She is just the nicest person, and, normally, loves everything she gets from the marketplace. She did not LOVE Marilyn. She sent Marilyn to me, to see if I could get her "usuable". This was the first, and ONLY thing that I can recall she was totally unhappy with, in almost 3 years. She tried to get her money back, but, got a "shine on" from Neftis, instead. I told her to take it to C&D. She did. No one cared, at all. I did not participate in that small thread, as, I thought I was way too biased. Sometimes, PJ, there are underlying issues when one jumps on a bandwagon. Underneath all the personas, clowns, and what have ya...we are all human.

So, Poppi, you just admitted that you jumped on the 'crucify neftis' bandwagon because of a personal vendetta from earlier. How sweet. The fact that your friend sent you Marilyn, for whatever reasons, is also a violation of the terms of sale of the product and those of Renderosity. Mehndi: your above post, while disguised as an 'apology', was rather a slew of even more insults. I dont appreciate personal attacks made on me by anyone, especially an administrator. Please stop, I'm not amused. You've already violated your TOS as a Renderosity admin several times in this thread. I politely asked you to stop resorting to childish name-calling.

I am glad to hear that the actual texture files could not have been altered without admins knowledge. It is clear from above that picture 3 of the ad has been altered.

InBlack...this is an OBSERVATION ONLY concerning why you say Dmentia doesn't respond. From what I have seen coming from your mouth (fingertips) it wouldn't matter what she said or tried to do so why the fuck bother? I'm not defending her...shit besides seeing her work I don't even know her so that is a moot point already. Again I go back to PLEASE LET THE INVOLVED PARTIES SOLVE THIS.

So, Poppi, you just admitted that you jumped on the 'crucify neftis' bandwagon because of a personal vendetta from earlier. How sweet. The fact that your friend sent you Marilyn, for whatever reasons, is also a violation of the terms of sale of the product and those of Renderosity. Sorry, Blackie...I gave her instructions, on how to proceed. I didn't have time to even unzip it. I CERTAINLY would not ever, in this, or the next, couple of lifetimes, would have even considered using that. I do my own characters and textures. They are exclusive, and, only sold to a small group. I have no need for a third rate Marilyn, on my hd. Just told her to get a refund. Any other quotes that you would like to make on tos? And, yes, I do not deny jumping on the bandwagon...in the Neftis affair. IF I BELIEVE IN SOMETHING...I SPEAK MY MIND. If a merchant is shifty with someone who works for me...I remember. When a person is dissatisfied, and, they are not a complainer, they should get a refund. Y'all are sure quick to toss in TOS, when you maybe, can't think of anything compelling and original. Keep dreamin'. I have been around, doing my artwork, and, selling it to my private folks way long enough to know the rules. And, from what I have seen around this place...SO HAS DMENTIA. Pop..pop...pop...

Geez, this is rediculous. I am with Doom Dancer on this one, why do these things have to become such a big bloomin' soap opera farce by those that would make this into a mockery, because that's what it becomes when it gets like this, was that last petty circus not enough to quench the masses?? Someone starts a fire and everyone seems to like watching the flames just get bigger and bigger until that smoke hits em in the face and they choke on it or they get burned themselves by the long licking flames. Cliques, cliques, cliques, sure, there's cliques eveywhere in life and on forums, people have friends, unfortunatly some have more than others but that's life, unfortunatly what begins being a problem is when friends try to help by causing more shit, or deny or ignore others just because they have certain FRIENDS, somehow I don't THINK that's the plan, but somehow it usually always works out being that way, and then you get REAL cliques and even lynch mobs and the beat goes on and on and on. InBlack, I would "ask" you to "please look" at what you yourself are saying and doing on this thread, its not exactly fit for an episode of Barney....and I do NOT mean that offensively in the least bit for like Doom Dancer I do not even KNOW Dementia, (heard of the name but cannot even picture the art now), nor do I know you, which brings me to another item here...why is everyone so keen on making this all into a clique of favoritism whenever we may say something that the opposite "sides" don't wish to hear, I mean, I am an oldtimer here, I am NOT a friend of Dementia and hardly know of her, and if this is the case for me, I am CERTAIN I am not alone! What kind of gall is it that suggests that "everyone" has to be in the know of all the so called accused fuddy duddy's around here, just because some folks here may worship Dementia or think she is made out of gold don't mean we all know this or even think this way, I could care less if she was the Queen of England, when I don't even know her from Adam! I also don't know staale, I am obviously batting a strike out of not being in the know here, sheesh! What a way for me to get enlightened on people, fighting and scuffling and carrying on when all this really should be dealt with discreetly and respectfully, as should the other have been as well. The staff here at Renderosity have the right idea, unfortunatly they cannot always enforce it nor make us realize the beneficiaries from this, but lashing out and screaming and fighting is NOT at all becoming of folks, especially ones that are apparently so highly respected and nourished as this Dementia, her friends are NOT doing her justice, they are hurting this even MORE. They tell me to hush up my mouth when I get pissy about some asshole telling me off on these forums and yet THIS shit is all OKAY??? What a crock of shit, nitty, nitty, picky, picky, sounds looney cause of all this, because we make it so by carrying on here like a bunch of morons when this should be dealt with seriously behind closed doors between those parties involved, not all these side effects. All this hissy fit stuff helps no one and just makes for a nice bashfest party for all those wanting to be a part of a scene, man, makes me feel like even I am a rubbernecker here, sheesh....and it also makes me realize how dumb and stupid I myself sound when I go off half cocked, thanks for finally making me realize my own errs by sheer examples....now I know....

Whatever you say. So far the only point you've been able to make is that Dmentia is a reputable member of Renderosity and is therefore above reproach. Every single thread you post just repeats it OVER and OVER. Well, I'm sure shes just swell, and her art is very nice. But both her and her little groupies such as yourself will have to come up with something a lot better to answer to Staale's accusations. ----------------------------------------------------------- The following is a extra special section just for Poppi, who asked if I had "Any other quotes that [I] would like to make on tos"... I do indeed have a TOS quote for you. "Buyer may not redistribute this archive file, in whole or in part. Buyer may not store it any place on a network or on the Internet where it may potentially be referenced by a third party." "Buyer is hereby granted a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use all of the contents of the encapsulating archive file" Even if you 'didn't even have the time to unzip it', which I highly doubt, both you and your friend have violated the TOS. But you're telling me that you downloaded a file thats several MBs to help your friend, then just looked at the unextracted zip file and concluded "hey, this is second rate work". That sounds believable. Heres one for the road: "Buyer cannot return an item once purchased. Like all electronic media, there is no way to give a refund just because you don't like something, there simply is no way to return it. If you aren't sure about an item, don't buy it! Ask the Author for some work done with the item to see the results. Ask in the forums if anyone else has purchased the item, and if they thought it was worth the money. However, once Buyer has purchased an item, there is no getting your money back or exchanging the item under any circumstances."

Seems we cross-posted RadArt, the above post was meant to go right after Poppi's in answer to her post. Before you get your panties in a bunch, it doesnt refer to you :)

Wouldn't make sense if it even was, since I am not on ANY side here, I know better because I don't really know enough about any of this to judge anyone, but I believe as a forum member of long standing and experience here, although I do not remember names well at times cause I tend to see people's actual art more,I think I have a right to say what I do see "here", and it ain't a pretty sight....not at all....and Inblack...I don't wear panties ;-)

Attached Link: http://www.soulhuntre.com

This will be a long post. You know, I am working to try and not make enemies here. I like this place, I like the community and I like the help I have gotten. I have tried to help others in turn. I don't mind the 50% commission to the website on sales because I understand that they need to make money. All well and good. I make a living with this stuff, and I want to keep my ties to this community for that reason as well. I have tried to be polite, I have tried to be fair. But I will speak my mind, because a community where I am too afraid to comment on what I see for fear of being frozen out or reprimanded in some fashion is not one worth working to stay a part of. I'll take this piece by piece. **By Mehndi to me:** *"Soulhuntre, believe it or not, we all have a life, those of us on staff ;) I realize that must be hard for you to quite grasp"* Well, after a quick double check I am sure that wasn't meant to be as bad as it sounded. Let's just look at the core issue. I know you folks are busy. I know you dont make a living being admins of this site. Hell, from what I understand the staff isn't even part of the ownership of this place - you guys are volunteers. I am sure that causes complications as well as tying your hands. However, life or no, you have to see that from the "outside" things are going much differently for the "respected" and "almost feared" Dmentia than they would for - say, me. **Mehndi to me again:** *"This latest slugfest began whilst most of the staff were out celebrating a Holiday. We are aware of it now, and are doing our best to look into the matter."* Yeah, I can see how that might be a factor :) The proof in the pudding will be what happens and how this is handled now that you folks are aware. This will tell us in the 'rank and file' a lot about how things work here. **Mehndi to me again:** *"Wrong. The hair made by Neftis was never pulled from sale once released, and has stayed on sale from the second it was released. A very fast check for copyright was done when the hair was submitted, which took only a very short time, less than a day, to compare both meshes, was performed."* Thank you. My memory obviously was flawed about that sequence of events. I appreciate the correction and withdraw any implied evil-doing in that fashion :) **Mehndi not to me:** *"Wrong. Dmentia, is one of you all. She is just one of MANY vendors. You are ALL served by the staff here, equally. Even when it costs us staff more than you can ever know, to maintain that level of courtesy and compassion and professionalism for each of you."* OK. Let's be honest here. You know and I know that the "official" reality of human interaction and the "real" reality of that interaction is rarely the same thing. "On paper" the treatment is equal, you might even work hard to make it so - but it probably isn't. Let's skip Dmentia for a moment. Let's just speak in generalities. It is simply not going to fly that all vendors are absolutely equal in the eyes of the staff. As you yourself pointed out, you are human. And even if the staff is completely fair, the money factor will always mean that the websites policy will favor those artists who bring in the most money. **Mehndi not to me:** *"One other matter that concerns me, is the flaunting of innacurate "medical" evidence right now as facts. Palm prints actually are VERY similar compared to the much more truly identifying "fingerprints" on the hand. Right now, holding my hand up to compare to this, other than one tiny line, my own palm comes incredibly close to matching. If I scan my palm, and place it upon Vicki, due to her own "palm striations", will it look an awful lot like both Staals and Dmentia's? probably."* If we were only looking at human hands, that would be valid. But what we have here are digital image files and they can be checked for matches far more accurately than human hands. In other words, if they match substantially on a pixel by pixel level then they ARE the same - they dont just "look alike" This is much more analogous to DNA than palm prints. **Mehndi not to me:** *"though I WILL grant you, there was a public hanging frontier style."* Yes, there was. Thank you for acknowledging it :) **Mehndi not to me:** *"Actual file changes of what is for sale are a whole new ball of wax entirely, requiring reupload, new testing even, deciding if it is a "new submission" or just an old one that has a minor update, all that stuff. There has been no change in files."* Thank you - that is pretty crucial information. **Elusion:** *"Having SEEN D~Mentia's working Photoshop and PZ3 files, I can confidently state that her originality and work are uniquely her own."* No offense, but I dont know you and your reputation isn't one I am familiar with. Your word isn't going to change my mind if the digital images match. If they dont match, then there is no problem. **Elusion:** *"Think about this lynch mob you are invoking. Think about the motives, be it control or revenge, that fuel the most vocal participants in this witch hunt."* If only you were here to give this advice to others when some folks (including your friend) launched an inaccurate lynching previously. Perhaps neftis wouldn't have been attacked the way she was. I did think about motives then, and I am thinking about them now. **Elusion:** *"Think about the track record and originality of D~Mentia."* She has no long track record with me. With me her record is about even so far. She was polite and helpful when I had questions with Bobby Sue, and she has been a helpful vendor with my questions after the sale. I like Bobby sue (though I can't use her much for the work we do) and I was pretty happy with Dmentia's help. A plus. She was very fast with the accusations about neftis's hair and made many statements that indicated an agenda of personal animosity rather than any objective concern of wrong doing. Thats a pretty hefty "minus". If it turns out that those images match to my satisfaction and I am convinced she used a texture she had no rights to - then her "track record" wont count for a hill of beans. Especially without an apology. **Elusion:** *"I have seen dozens of original PSD files D~Mentia has made for paintings and textures. She has created every last pixel on them, down to each tiny dragon scale and hair."* That doesn't help your credibility much when Dmentia herself seems to have said that those hands came from a variety of sources. So either you dont really know what is in those pixels as well as you think you do or you aren't being honest. Either way, you're not coming across as a very reliable witness. Some of us are willing to accept that this may simply be a mistake on Dmentia's part if the texture was indeed copied - but even a mistake would mean you aren't correct when you personally vouch for "every last pixel". **PJF:** *"Whatever neftis has done has no bearing on what Dmentia may or may not have done. At least in this case the accuser has offered something in the way of evidence. I certainly hope that Staale follows through with the formal procedure; otherwise this situation will probably remain unpleasantly unresolved."* I agree. Staale should file an official complaint. But then again, does he have to be the one? I wonder if any one of us couldn't file a copyright complaint. **Poppi:** *"Be honest...How many of y'all even look at the palms AT ALL?"* I do now. Besides, what difference would it make? Stealing would be stealing. **InBlack:** *"Buyer cannot return an item once purchased. Like all electronic media, there is no way to give a refund just because you don't like something, there simply is no way to return it. If you aren't sure about an item, don't buy it!"* Normally, I agree with this. I have gotten several unusable or substandard items here at the Marketplace, and I simply make sure not to trust those artists again. Not that they meant ill, but they simply dont have the same quality standards I do. In a case of a copyright violation, I DO think we should be offered our money back if proven. Thats all for now :)

Lets take it by the numbers 1: Its my hand! The Faelin1 texture is 100% proof, Dmentia stole it, she may be talented but she stole it. Look at the skin texture running up the side of the thumb, i'm the only person in the world that have that pattern. 2: All my large textures (3000*3000) uses the scan of my hand. 3: Fixing things silently does not work, both instances of theft against my work here have proven it. You should see what i received in the mail, you wouldn't believe it. I haven't posted it because she have made other good things and i believe she did it in panic. 4: Snox is a nice guy compared to Dmentia. 5: I have sent a formal complaint to the guy listed in the Claims of Infringement text, jhandley@bondware.com. I also sent the thing she sent me to him. 6: It apparent that some people is protected by the management. 7: The textures have apparently been altered in silence. 8: A think Dementia and Renderosity should donate a nice little gift to the World Wildlife Foundation for 'my' cut of the earnings they have made on an illegal product. 9: The End (I Hope) Staale

soulhuntre wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if any one of us couldn't file a copyright complaint. <<<<<<<<<< The complaint procedure specifically demands that the complainant state that they are the copyright holder. As a non copyright holder the only option is an informal 'nod'.

Please stop this. There is a such thing as due process, innocent until proven guilty, and all that. Filing a formal complaint is the right way to handle it. If you can't get satisfaction that way, then pursue the matter in a court of law. DMentia is a very valuable member of this community and she doesn't deserve to have her reputation slandered. I'm not just saying that because I have worked with her before. This kind of thing shouldn't happen to anyone. If you think you have proof of something, fine. Submit it to the appropriate arbitrator. It doesn't belong here. In case anyone hasn't noticed, witch hunts are several centuries out of vogue.

"DMentia is a very valuable member of this community and she doesn't deserve to have her reputation slandered." And from this, we suppose staale isnot a valuble member and do deserve to have his reputation slandered? Every body all say "Oh dmentia could not do this thing, staale must be mistaked" By the inference we take all voices to speak for dmentia say she tells truth so staale must be lieing. Finding it amusing that all people, who most certainly are not in a clique together, that attcked neftis so much now dmentia defend as hystericaly Elusion - you have every pixel seen dmentia create personally? If not then you're evidence is heresay and not proof of anything save that every one rushed to defend dmentia.

Oh, for pitty sakes people. Staale filed a complaint. Let it be taken care of that way by him. Unless you all have inexplicable proof that it is copied, than yes, you are making her guilty until proven innocent. That isn't the way things should work. This thread is getting sickening. PAF2000, nobody said Staale wasn't a valuable member of the community. I personally relied heavily on his textures when I first started out. They were wonderful. AND I took a lot of shit for standing up for him in the sknox deal. And even then, when I was sure was I was seeing, I learned a lesson. Never is it right for ANYONE to jump the gun and trash someones reputation before you know everything. Threads like these eventually die, and not everyone gets the conclusion, but the ones that read the will remember the shit in them. And one of these times all of you (or me) who go off half barrel trashing everyone involved and even those not involved, the person will be innocent and you could have ruined them. Just think about it. I mean, what if I suddenly accused on of you of copying my work and provide something that looks similar.(I'm not, just a hypothetical situation). So everyone that disagreed with you on this issue quickly jumps to crucify you for being a hypocritical asshole and concludes you are guilty. I am just saying. I don't know Staale, but I like him anyway. And he seems to get screwed alot when all he is trying to do is offer us something great to use that is free. And if he has proof, then let him handle it. He already took the steps he needed to take. So offer him your support, but please stop all of the witch hunts. Because you know what I see. As an outsider, I see a bunch of people complaining about some clique that I see nothing of. Instead, you all look more like a clique to me than those who you are accusing of being one. Of course, since anyone on this thread who didn't jump to condemn anyone has been accused of being a part of that so-called-clique, I assume I will be next.

Moved to C&D.

Thanks, RCook. This IS where this belongs. :) I'm not going to sling accusations around. Just going to state the same thing I did on other copyright topics. IF Dementa copied Staale's hand tex, then she was wrong to do so, no matter how wonderful, talented etc, she may be. I bought her dragon pack and horse pack, so I can vouch for the talented part. As for cliques, well, I've seen evidence of those for ages. No surprise there. Staale, it may be time for you to stop offering free stuff. I know that from what I've seen on the Net over the last several years makes me think there's a very 'loose' definition of the term 'copyright' out in cyberspace. It's why I'll never post any of MY stuff. As to accusations, it may be best to make your decision based on evidence, or lack thereof in other threads, and quietly let your wallet do the talking. :) My $.03 canadian. :) Greywolf

C & D is a good place for this. Hopefully though any announcement / apology will be posted here for other potential clients to see.

I just want to know why anyone would fear "Dmentia" Does she refuse to sell you a terxture if she dont like you or what? Respect I understand that's earned but it can just as easily be lost.

I have no idea why she would be "feared" but it seems to be so. I would assume the threats are monetary in nature and unspoken if there even are any. How muych is it worth to have someone use your textures/props in her artwork and advertise for you in the gallery? How much is it worth for someone to set you up as a tester? Thats the only thing I can think of. But I haven't seen Dmentia do any of those... so that speculation is not about her specifically. It's more about the power of the marketplace 'inside' :)

Morphworld has closed :( Is Staale next ?? All because of greedy thieving vendor's everyone else has to suffer. Maybe that's what they want that the wonderfull contributor's who do so for free quit, that way all new user's have to pay for thier "creation's" that they made with stolen stuff.

I know Staale has had textures ... appropriated before (mostly because Staale has some of the best ones out there, and it's good to have a good starting point sometimes). I know Dmentia has been on BOTH sides of "stealing" situations in the past, and am surprised that she allowed herself to get into another situation where she could be blamed for this. Both of them are talented artists. Both are temperamental. Hence the explosion here. My suspicion is that Dmentia is one of the following: 1) Dmentia has a LOT of textures and photos that she uses piecemeal for her textures; she honestly did not know the source of the hands that she used. -OR- 2) Dmentia believed in the "20% rule." Once upon a time it was possible to change more than 20% of something, and claim it legally as yours. That rule no longer holds up in court, and can REALLY get you in trouble if money is involved (unless you either provide remuneration to the original author, of up to the percentage that is still their work of the royalties, OR purchase redistribution rights from them for this purpose). The hands are less than 20% of the texture; since everything else was her own work, she reasonably but illegally concluded that she could use someone else's hands for the image. Either Staale's hands were used in error or in ignorance. This should have been taken up between the two artists and site administration, and not been made public (unless it resulted in legal action or a banning, which, IMO, would be an overreaction of the worst sort).

Maybe their in love...

I didn't plan on posting more about this case but, here's an image of my tex and the Bobby sue tex (bad copy Dmentia sent me) as you can see she copied the entire hand (some cloning done here and there), palms and fingers, she even copied my BG color! (slightly darkened like the rest of the texture is) If you are for some strange reason not convinced then zoom up the image and check out the detailing on the thumb. Btw i hope Dementia have removed all of my texture as anything less than that is unacceptable. And that report a Copyright violation thing does not work, maybe he is on holiday ;)

I was refraining from posting this, but in light of the above post by Staale I felt compelled. Below is a portion of the Renderosity copyright policy. Follow the link to see the entire policy. http://www.renderosity.com/index.ez?viewLink=328 "Renderosity's Policy Concerning Copyright Claims of Infringement 1. Please select the Policy Notification link above to officially communicate a potential copyright infringement claim. 2. Upon receiving an official communications via mail or fax, Renderosity will pull the product in question within 24 hrs." Since the questioned product has not been pulled, the dispute must have been resolved. My feeble mind can only come up with three possibilities. 1. Staale and Dementia have come to some agreement. Staales post above blows this out. 2. The texture has been altered to a point judged by Renderosity to no longer infringe on the copyright and reposted. Although a possibility this would not be a satisfactory conclusion. It fails to address the fraudulent act committed against the previous purchasers who now own a pirated texture which they legally cannot use. This is a public matter in that it involves an offer to sale to the general public. 3. Rederosity has chosen to ignore their own Copyright Policy. A most disturbing proposition. In the US, justice strives to be blind and treat all in an equal manner. Perhaps Renderosity, like so often in America, has decided that some people are more equal than others.

Sigh. Money talks. Considering the high profile of this case, Staale's copyright claim should have been handled immediately and publicly to lay all doubts and charges to rest. I will take neither side because to do so will bring the forces of one side, or the other, right down on my poor little head. Pity that you can't defend copyright without someone coming down on you. Sigh. Fact is, Dementia has excellent items in the store, Staale has nothing. Many people will believe that THIS is the reason Staale's complaint isn't acted on, until someone DOES something! Please, guys (and gals), I've been here since it was the PFO run by Willow and Grey, don't let the reputation of this site fail. Or you'll loose a lot more than Traveller. Greywolf

Things to consider People fear things they don't understand, they always have, and most likelly always will...the origional witch hunts were based on this fear, and alot of innocent people died because of them...It's human nature to "fear" the unknown... If your world is crumbling around you because people who "fear" you decide to lynch you, then take pride in the fact that whilst they are busy rushing you to the stake, some other poor soul is avoiding thier wrath... For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is about the biggest lie ever told to man by another man...the pain you cause others may be more serious than you know so choose your words wiselly when attacking the unknown. To AssUMe makes an Ass of U & Me...Wudeness is a sign of weakness you must never be wude...Opinions are like assholes everybody has one and most of them stink... Of the words and deffinitions below what best describes you? and the people you know personally?...In a world where technology has advanced to the point that you honestlly never need to leave your home, alot of the population has become reclusive. Technical hermits if you will. clique - A small exclusive group of friends or associates. clique - A narrow circle of persons associated by common interests or for the accomplishment of a common purpose; -- generally used in a bad sense. clique - To associate together in a clannish way; to act with others secretly to gain a desired end; to plot; -- used with together. clique - an exclusive circle of people with a common purpose hermit - A person who has withdrawn from society and lives a solitary existence; a recluse. hermit - one who lives in solitude hermit - A person who retires from society and lives in solitude; a recluse; an anchoret; especially, one who so lives from religious motives. recluse- A person who withdraws from the world to live in seclusion and often in solitude. friend - a person you know well and regard with affection and trust peer - A person who has equal standing with another or others, as in rank, class, or age enemy - One who feels hatred toward, intends injury to, or opposes the interests of another Should you fear me?...maybe I am unknown, you don't know the first thing about me, I may live two blocks away from you and suffer from dementia...its possible, even if I swear otherwise, you still don't know enough about me to be sure...I may be a witch if you beleive in that sort of thing, and I may curse any one who messes with me to a life of misery...Fact is you don't know who or what I am, I am the unknown. Should I fear you?...DEFFINATELLY!!! In a matter of minutes you have the ability to shatter what took a life time to create...What's to stop you?...I don't know a thing about you...and from what I've seen, my fear is justified... _____________________________________________________________________________ Personal notes... I am a human, I am mortal, and I do feel pain just like the rest of you...I've been crucified by my peers, not my friends, not my enemies, and not some mysterious non existant clique. Do I have friends?...I have only a handful of people in the world that I would consider friends outside my family, and they are just as reclusive as I am...Never even met them face to face... Do I have enemies?...I can only think of two people that I would actually consider an enemy, and neither of them frequent these forumns... Am I part of any clique?...No, I'm not, I have always been the odd one out, my personality isn't one that would even fit in a clique. I have been a loner all my life and I don't expect that to change any time soon... An appology is a very serious thing for me, I will not appologize to some one if I am not sorry. There are times that I start out being sorry, but the person does enough damage to me that I am no longer sorry for anything. One other little detail about me, you can't hurt me by attacking me personally, well you can, but you wont get a rise, you will never know how bad you've hurt me...I will not tolerate you hurting my friends or family though...This latest mess has hurt both my friends and my family... And not one of you ever bothered to contact me, not one single solitary mud slinging mob member attempted to contact me, not one... _____________________________________________________________________________ My Responses 1. It's my post, I have no response to it... 2. Although I find your tactics very immature, and I do not personally own any of your textures, its highlly possible we used the same source material, or that I referenced a derrivative of your texture while creating Bobby Sue...This could have been handled privatelly, but you chose a scandal...hope you're happy with the outcome. 3. er...Totally unrelated! 4. Excuse me, but I only made two comments in the thread you reference, the first saying it needed to be handled by the parties involved, and the second my opinion after being attacked in that thread...Also the copying of my textures was not "alleged" I followed procedure, and never brought that incident into the public light until after my case was proven...please get your facts straight! 5. It would have been very nice indeed, but it seems there are a few people dead set on seeing me fall for what ever reason... 6. If 2 comments equals an active part in a lynching, then you've deffinatelly gone above and beyond the call of duty in this post. They aren't my rules, and the same rules apply to us all. The lines on your palms are quite unique if you take a really really microscopically close look, but neither texture in question is that detailed...the larger lines in your palms are generally the same for everyone with a few minor exceptions...Why should I have to explain myself to you or any one else for that matter? 7. Actually Neftis was given a chance, quite a big chance considering I didnt go public with the Tessoro incident until well after the fact... 8. At this point does it matter wether they were right or wrong?...The damage done can not be undone, unfortunatelly life doesnt work that way, and no amount of appologizing is going to solve anything... 9. With holding judgement and yet still fueling...the flames never die if you continue to fuel them... 10. You cant keep a thread from going out of control once its already gone... 11. No, the recent lynchings have taught people that its ok to do it and the judgement is always guilty until proven innocent... 12. Ironic yes, amusing no...calm and caution went out the window as soon as Staale posted this in a public forumn... 13. Honestlly you've given this thread enough attention for several people...Your logic is so flawed its not even worth commenting on...Neftis is a vendor just like I am, her products sell just as well if not better than mine do, so we are part of the same group... 14. Thanks for the heads up on Seven of Nine, wish you would have told me way back when rather than waiting this long, I created that pack before I fully understood the workings of poser, and I honestlly thought that since the origional hair model refrenced the obj in the geometry folder, my hr2 did as well...Live and learn... 15. Reserving judgment while fanning the flames is a silly notion... 16. my comment, to late to fix the damage, and apprentlly not good enough for some peoples tastes, you know not one of you bothered to contact me...not one! 17. Ok, so I say it was an honest mistake, then everyone crusifies me a bit more, or I say Nope, Staale is over reacting, then everyone takes sides and crucifies us both...I wasnt being charming, I was trying to be mature and realistic... 18. Mobs are dangerous...Fireworks got rained out, but there were plenty here to go around... 19. Sure it'll sort itself out, when people stop fanning the flames, and let it sort itself out... 20. You have no idea how I reacted to this, you only saw what you wanted to see...I'm sorry but the way you're going, you're not even worth reasoning with, I'll not respond to any more of your posts, Unplug dear! 21. I put alot of work into my textures also, and even if some one owes some one else a really big appology, its not your call or your business, no matter which way it goes, it should have been handled between the parties in question... 22. lips and eyes arent in question...and the damage has already been done with no evidence... 23. Aren't you out of fuel yet?...*sigh* 24. It's amazing how that clique word gets thrown around here... 25. Kleptolippia?...hmmmm...call websters, I think you got a winner there... 26. is that differences or similarities you're pointing out?... 27. color shade combos copyrightable?...thats a scary thought... 28. you're right, its not your place, and what about all the trouble I went through, and all the hell I've just been put through... 29. Good point, but it will be ignored... 30. Some one took it upon themselves to do that, violating the licence agreement in the process... 31. You own a gas company I take it...am I right? 32. Obviouslly I'm right... 33. Hmmm, you're no proffessional and yet you continue to fan these flames...I'll no longer take your comments seriouslly either... 34. There is a better way to handle these situations, but if we started handling them that way, then people would go back to watching soap operas... 35. Rabid...now that deffinatelly describes the situation... 36. You're partners in that gas station with inblack arent you? 37. Being that I never even saw one of your origional textures before this thread started it would be highlly unlikelly that I copied it...You started being the bad guy way up in post #2...And yes my textures are still on sale... 38. These are the days of our lives...oops I plagurized a soap opra title... 39. I appreciate your logical unbiased non flamatory statement... 40. Thanks Anton 41. I'd like to see this "evidence" 42. In a message that already contains 42 posts, can you blame me for not wanting to discuss it publiclly?... 43. You own an entire chain of gas stations...right? 44. and I guess you own 50 or so acres of forest for firewood as well... 45. Faelyn was never removed, and yes the market place image was changed...why would I change the image?...read the previous 44 posts and figure it out...Will I appologize?...um at this point right or wrong, HELL NO!!! 46. Better late than never I guess... 47. Arent you tired of fanning yet?...*sigh* 48. Hate to see you go, but if this doesnt end and soon, I'll be right behind you... 49. right... 50. didnt your mom ever warn you not to play with matches? 51. whats this other item of curiosity?... 52. I did respond, and no one, not one single person bothered to contact me...so obviouslly none of these people care to hear what I have to say, they only want blood... 53. er ok... 54. another perfectlly logical post that will be ignored... 55. Um its hit the fan already, and youre still fanning it... 56. don't your fingers hurt yet? 57. again your logic will be ignored... 58. No its not an admission of guilt on any level... 59. Logic again, it will be ignored except when its used against you, and I'm sorry they'll do that, they always do for some reason...amazing we ended up in the same clique, too bad these rabble rousers dont have access to the merchants forumn lol...then they'd know just how silly this whole clique thing sounds. 60. at this point there is nothing any one can say or do that will change the outcome... 61. Lunatics with gasoline and matches should be avoided at all costs... 62. I know how much it took for you to post this and I really appreciate it... 63. you really need to find a productive way to channel all this energy you have... 64. HEAR HEAR! I respect that honesty Mehndi, I was tempted to point that out in the last thread we were accused of being a clique in, but I refrained... 65. how often exactlly do you have to replace your key board?...I suspect from all the salavating and constant pounding you need to replace at least once per week... 66. agreed :( 67. The situations are also totally different in that (a) no one contacted me prior to dragging my name through the mud & (b) I didnt ask for this... 68. I appreciate your active role in this thread, but they arent listening...its why I'm not commenting, they are proving my choice... 69. BS deffinatelly sums up this thread... 70. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck... 71. I always love your posts, but at the moment I feel like poop poop poop :( 72. *sigh*...up to 72 posts now, havent you people hurt me enough? 73. They arent listening to reason, its why I wont comment... 74. Humanity...it almost makes me wish I'd been born a dog... 75. You're really gonna hurt yourself if you don't calm down... 76. Yes I changed the images, but after 75 posts, can you honestlly blame me?...think about it... 77. At least some people understand my lack of response... 78. See, no matter what you say they turn it around, its hopeless... 79. will it ever end?...I doubt it, and even if it does, the damage that has been done can not be undone... 80. ok, you're deffinatelly psycho 81. there is no doubt in any one's mind of this now... 82. you dont wear panties?... 83. You promise?...nah cant be all, your torch is still flickering, I'm sure you'll be back... 84. I think you really need to give it a rest...you wouldnt deal with me in email, you're too immature for my tastes... 85. ok... 86. Thanks, but they arent listening... 87. And I suppose this thread is making Staale more valuable?...its doing us both more harm than good, but you people just cant get that through your ever so thick skulls...and back the hell off of Elusion! 88. Its a very sad thing... 89. *cry* 90. Actually this thread should never have happened, much less been moved... 91. You still at it? 92. People fear the unknown, that is human nature...I am unknown, because I usually keep to myself, I'm not in any cliques, and even now I'm not responding...when you're the quiet type people don't know what to expect from you and so they "fear" you... 93. more fuel...havent you grown tired of this yet?... 94. great yet another thing for people to blame me for... 95. Oh my god, is it finally over? 96. guess not 97. Ok Staale now you've gone a bit to far, why not post the entire image I sent you?...could it be because you yourself see and understand what really happened here?...or maybe you just want to see me fall for some strange reason?...Fact is I DID NOT OWN one of your origionals prior to creating my texture, I DO OWN an image that looks remarkably like your own, We could have handled this like civilized adults, but you chose instead to act like a child!...Am I at all sorry?...HELL NO!...you have without a doubt hurt me far worse than I ever deserved, and for every similarity you can point out, I can point out a difference...You are a bitter and paranoid soul... 98. This is no longer worth my time or energy... 99. People just keep making assumptions, and tossing in thier opinions... _____________________________________________________________________________ In conclusion...after having my reputation butchered, and my name drug through all the mud possible, I am sick to death of this entire situation, I considered deleting my account all together and giving up, but to hell with that...To the people who supported me, Thank You, I really appreciate all your support, to the people who felt it necessary to discredit me, Thank You also, you have delt a bad blow to my reputation as well as caused me physical pain hope you're happy with yourselves... The attached image is the entire image that I sent to staale, it contains a recent photo of my own hand, as well as one of the many source photos I used in creation of BobbySue...While I did not own any of staales origionals prior to this incident, I did own a derrivative which I did reference while photoshoping the texture, I did not copy it, as in copy/paste, I did how ever try to duplicate it by repainting it pixle by pixle because it is a very good palm texture...The texture in the store has been changed not because it was a copy, but because I chose to change it rather than hear any more shit about it... I never intended to post to this mess after my initial post, this should have been handled in private...

This has gone on far, far too long. Everyone has had plenty of time to have their say. This thread is now closed.