I believe this is an interesting and useful thread, so let's please treat each other with civility and patience. I know we all share deep passions for similar  interests ( art, 3D modeling ), which makes it difficult sometimes to keep our emotions from boiling over ( mea culpa ), but the people in these forums are a more than cut above the average and deserve our courtesy and respect.

Now if you'll excuse me, I just fell off my soapbox and landed flat on my face. Blame it on Bourbon and soda; it's always easier than admitting you're a sentimental dweeb.

Quote -
So the Daz Studio scaling will work sorta like universal for clothes too? Now thats interesting, I have not worked with clothes much yet in Poser, a bit, and they do have to be adjusted for scaling differently than the figure to get a perfect fit. That would be a plus if you did not have to do that.

No, you still have to tweak and adjust each JP so that it bends properly around the underlying figure. It's actually a bit trickier, and to me it appears to be more time consuming to do it in clothing then then on a figure itself, because you have more then just aesthetics of the bend to worry about, but the pokethrough from the underlying figure. Including accounting for it's JCM's. Often in clothing you end up with more JCM's then in a figure... if you want somewhat realistically fitted clothing, and not something that lookes like a stretched out tube sock a mile away from the figure body.

Quote - I am looking at adopting some of the Daz style scaling especially for  the chest-collars.  In Brad the collars are just a thin line befor the shoulder, not much to work with for scaling. But if I tie them together with the chest (morph forms) they work great. I'll likely end up with a hybrid Daz-Poser scaling. The example I used in the video is over simplified as well, cause you have to remember that you also have other body parts and x and z scale to account for as well. So it gets more complicated than just setting up the y scale, they all have to play nice together.
cheers.

There's no such thing as DAZ specific scaling rig. The difference is that internally, DS soesn't depend on the neighboring body part smoothing parameters like Poser does, but it happens automatically - internally in the program. If the 'bend' on a joint is turned ON, then it automatically smooths the transitions, while Poser depends more on the parameters you showed in your video. I can ask around and get more specifics about this if you'd like more info.

Hi Connie,

I knew there must be something going on internally in the Daz scaling, things look smoother. So I wonder if its still possible to have something like a hybrid? Poser as it is, is not going to recognise the automatic smoothing, or more correctly just doesnt have the same ability. I was thinking more along the lines of combining the scaling of several body parts like the chest-collars and maybe even the neck by setting up the erc for it with the D/S setup tools. But still leaving the individual dials so you can make fine adjustmens in individual parts.

Yes if you happen to know of any information on the joint smoothing or run across it in your travels, I would be very interested. I wonder if a PY script could be devised to accomlish something similar? Not that I could ever write it myself but someone like Cage might be able to.

Quote - > Quote -

You can inject joints (and falloff-zones) into a figure's cr2 just like you can inject morphs.

So ideally, if you incejt an "obese" morph or an "emacicated" morph, you could also inject modified joints and falloff zones at the same time.
Same for clothing, of course.

But I usually re-rig all my morphed figures and turn them into standalone characters as I want the joints to be as perfect as possible.

I just wondered why no-one has attempted this as a commercial option for a base figure (perhaps it has been done?).
Would a rig/shape injection system be workable for the versatile figure concept?

Thing is, for the end user who doesn't know rigging at all, but wants a solution to character design via dial spinning that moves beyond V4/M4, it seems like a good idea.
I'd always prefer to use a good base in this way. I did like Apollo for this design potential, for all his shortcomings.
Could be I'm just dreaming.

While this can be done, it's a really good way to get no clothing support for the figure whatsoever.  Just think how much time it takes to adjust JP's just for a single rig.
Now let's say a fiigure has 50 morphs... you could spend the same amount of time refining the JP's for each morph. If it takes someone only an hour to adjust JP's for a single morph (which would be incredibly fast), it would take 50 hours - a long week to adjust JP's to be at the optimium for each morph.  And this is just assuming each morph is to be used at a value of 1. The moment you start using other morph values, the relationship between morphed mesh location, and JP influence zones change again, and you no longer have the optimum. Theoretically, to get best results at incrimental morph values, JP's would have to be ERC'd to responf to the morph value.

Of course, as soon as you start moving the JP's, your JCM's no longer behave quite right, because in 90% of the cases JCM's are very dependent on the JP values staying static. So what do you do, make a new set of JCM's for each morph with it's own set of JP settings?  So, lets' sau a figure needs 30 JCM's... each morph is likely to need a new set of JCM's (that would be 30*50=1500 JCM's).
Now, I'm very fast at makign JCM's, when on a roll, I can go as fast as one very 10 minutes. We're talking about 250 hours just making the JCM's... not to mention a HUUUUGE file. This is just to use morph values at a setting of 1. Now, that is not the kind of figure I would do clothing for - unless I wanted my house in foreclosure.

This doesn'teven account for any ability to start mixing morphs and get different characters....

What i'm getting at is, it's very easy to take something out of context of how the entire machinery works together (the way Joe Public's statement did), and say, eh, it's an easy adjustment. it is not. You adjust one thing, and it breaks and influences 50 other items. This is the limitation of rigging figures in general, and little more specifically Poser rigging, since it's very old technology. Newer rigs, in more advanced software are a tad less sensitive to this, because of advancements in rigging technology. But even there (like in Cinema, or Max etc) rigs have their limitations, and need to be made at an optimum between purpose and performance.

Quote - Hi Connie,

I knew there must be something going on internally in the Daz scaling, things look smoother. So I wonder if its still possible to have something like a hybrid? Poser as it is, is not going to recognise the automatic smoothing, or more correctly just doesnt have the same ability. I was thinking more along the lines of combining the scaling of several body parts like the chest-collars and maybe even the neck by setting up the erc for it with the D/S setup tools. But still leaving the individual dials so you can make fine adjustmens in individual parts.

Yes if you happen to know of any information on the joint smoothing or run across it in your travels, I would be very interested. I wonder if a PY script could be devised to accomlish something similar? Not that I could ever write it myself but someone like Cage might be able to.

You can make those adjustments inside DAZ's figure setup tools(FST). I usually inherit them from the V4's rig when I make clothing, so I don't mess with them often enough to know the finer points of the differences between adjusting them in FST vs. Poser.

I know they can be tweaked in FST, I've selected them by accident plenty of times, when I thought I was moving bone centers.

I jsut ran a few test movements on the Neck and chest and head smoothing parameters, and DS definately reacts to their movement - on Antonia. On V4, they appear to be locked in place and hidden, so I'll need to hack the cr2 first to show and make them selectable, or pick a different figure to tinker with.

What I haven't done yet is do side by side comparison on whether the mesh behaves identically when those parameters are adjusted in both programs. Just from memory, without side by side comparison, I find it harder to create the sharp, stepped looking dropoff between body groups, in DS. It appears that if something falls outside of a bend zone DS still takes a row of polygons and from a neighboring figure and bends then, rather then leaving a sharp dropoff.

Running a real technically valuable comparison is going to take some time, because i want to make sure I use identical poses and numerical values in both programs, and test it on several figures... so give me a few daysto find a bit of time and patience to get throug it.

Also, I'm going to post some technical questions over on DAZ developers forum, see what other technical info I can shake out, about the differences.

I don't particularly subscribe to the idea that "It's a poser bug" or that the kids are 'badly rigged", or taht DAZ is "abandoning Poser user support" , but it's obvious that some differences between those two do exist.

First off, You need to get down off of your High Horse! Examples of my work would be every single piece of clothing I did under the name of MatrixWorkz. Try not "Ass-uming" I've never done anything again shall we? Also I've used WW to fit clothing to morphed figures in my personal projects with the Poser Robinsons to get Dork cloths to fit P6 James and P5 Don and M3 in morphed poses. And anyone who has used WW often will tell you, use of the Joint Editor is still required and I've used it!

Okay, just a quick comparison between Poser and DS and some findings. I compared it in DS3 Advanced with Figure Setup tools, and in Poser 7, and PP2010:

When a bone is non uniformly scaled, along a Y axis for example, in Poser, the SmooY parameters stay static - as in do not change the "Y" location, as the bone location moves. This way, very quickly the mesh falls out of the bend influence zone and produces the stairstepping effect.
When a bone is Uniformly scaled (XY and Z) the smooY parameter moves/scales along with the bone in Poser.

The other three JP's, XYand Z rotation move, movements and scaling move and scale with the bones or joints as they move around. This is the same in both programs.

In DS, the smooY parameter moves with the bone even when it's non uniformly scaled (in poser it stays static) - this way the mesh doesn't fall outside smoothing influence zones as quickly, producing a smoother bend.

So, I guess I can see why some people would consider it a "bug". I can't think of a specific reason why make all the other JP's move around with the bone, except for smooY parameter, and only when it's scaled in one direction. When the whole bone is scaled, the smooY does move with the bone.  First impression is, it looks like it got forgotten.

Maybe there is a specific technical reason why this was done in poser, if so, and someone knows what it is, please stop by and explain.  Kitty (and others I suspect) are dying of curiosity here.

I guess a possible fix for this would be to have a separate set of JP's for Poser, where the smooY parameter start and end locations are ERC'd to the bone Yscale. IRRC JP's can be INJected, but not REMoved, so Poser users would have to load a figure, then INJ the Poser JP's.

What I don't know yet is if that's the only thing that affects the smoothing or not.

"I find it harder to create the sharp, stepped looking dropoff between body groups, in DS. It appears that if something falls outside of a bend zone DS still takes a row of polygons and from a neighboring figure and bends then, rather then leaving a sharp dropoff."

I noticed much the same while I was working on the scaling of the M4 gens. It took a super fine adjustment of the scaling to get them to smooth out in Poser. I did get them to smooth out but it is a very fine line.

"I don't particularly subscribe to the idea that "It's a poser bug" or that the kids are 'badly rigged", or taht DAZ is "abandoning Poser user support" , but it's obvious that some differences between those two do exist."

I dont either, Poser rigging is old and the settings are touchy, but they do work. I have not had the chance to sit down and look at the kids yet, I keep meaning to and will eventually. I think Daz is moving on in the direction that further development of D/S takes them, it may or may not bring a rift between the two comunities. But I had been reading over in the Daz forums that they are going to support the new rigging options in Poser 8 and PP 2010. So perhaps things may turn out for the better, and any split is likely some time away.  I like Poser even for all its faults, and either way I think the comunity will deal with whatever the future brings. If the two split I dont think it will really kill either one.

DS and Poser aren't going to split that much. The market is small wenough that they need each other.  Business wise, it's better to be a smaller fish in a bigger pond, then a huge fish in a tiny pond.

Some pulling and tugging back and forth just sounds like a good healthy dose of sibiling rivalry to me. No more then that.

Quote - DS and Poser aren't going to split that much. The market is small wenough that they need each other.  Business wise, it's better to be a smaller fish in a bigger pond, then a huge fish in a tiny pond.

Some pulling and tugging back and forth just sounds like a good healthy dose of sibiling rivalry to me. No more then that.

Hopefully not, I havn't even made anything to sell yet, and when I do, I'd much rather make something that works in both apps.

Quote - > Quote - DS and Poser aren't going to split that much. The market is small wenough that they need each other.  Business wise, it's better to be a smaller fish in a bigger pond, then a huge fish in a tiny pond.

Some pulling and tugging back and forth just sounds like a good healthy dose of sibiling rivalry to me. No more then that.

Hopefully not, I havn't even made anything to sell yet, and when I do, I'd much rather make something that works in both apps.

It's not too bad. Especially if you stay somewhat middle of the road.  if you get too advanced in either direction, they you start bumping into limitations of one program, or the other.
like, the non-uniform scaling thing, or with P8 having the dependent parameters now.
To make things work for the broadest audience and piss off as few people as possible, you always end up staying at least version behind the latest tech stuff.

If you go too far forwrd, or too far outside the mainstream, you get the bragging rights, but if you're trying to do this for a living, it doesn't pay the bills.

Yup, you would need to appeal to a large audience to make a living at this. I will likely just make a few things here and there, I'm much too slow to ever make a living at it. But it would be nice to see a few things being used that I made.  :)

Is this what you mean by IIRC? www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php

I thought this might come in really handy for the jaw

oh, IIRC = If I Remember Correctly :)

That looks like an awesomly informative thread!  (I only scanend through it so far, will definately bookmark it for a detailed read.

The problem is that when DAZ copied Poser they couldn't/wouldn't re-ingeneer Poser rigging.

So internally Studio uses some sort of weightmapping that scales differently.
(Try the Figure Mixer in Advanced Studio and it asks you how to merge (freeze) the joint parameters of the combined figure: Poser falloff zones or vertex painting)

Only if you export the figure as a cr2 the "internal" weightmapping will be translated into (more or less) standard Poser rigging.

Now, that emulation is quite good, but not perfect (Fix morphs made using MorphLoaderPro only work properly inside Studio for example.)

But the real problem here is this:
How good is good enough ?

We now can use multiple capsule shaped falloffzones.
We have a morphbrush that works across joints.
There is also another tool in the works that will revolutionize the way JCM's are made in Poser.
Click: Export POSED figure to ZBrush
Click: Sculpt JCM morph
Click: Import JCM morph back to Poser.
And unlike MorphloaderPRO the results are PERFECT.

For 10 years I constantly heard people whining: Waaah, the joints are BAD ! Lookathershoulders ! Waaah..we want better figures !
Waaah..We want to be like the PROS !

Well, guess what ?
The tools are out there.
You can easily rig a figure in Poser now that brings tears to the eyes of any "professional" MAX/MAYA user.

But instead everybody now dances around a frigging Barbie doll that is five steps behind the curve because people insist on "versatility".

Well, people, I got news for you:
You can't have it both.
You can't morph from fat blob to Zombie with just a dial spin without things breaking.
You can't just go from toddler to teen with a "morphform".
Not of you have some quality standards.

This "versatility" crap is just a marketing shtick.
No, you don't need a new set of joints for each and any morph.
That's the usual propaganda nonsense like "Poser is brooooooken"

I'm all for easy and accessible for everybody.

But don't dumb stuff down because you think your customers are to stupid to notice.
And especially don't dumb stuff down just to rake in more money.

DAZ has changed direction.
From "artists tools" they went to creating "hobbyist toys".
"Easy", "versatile" and "convenient" is not the same as "highest possible quality".

Look at the crap merchants create for those figures.
Skin tight styrofoam clothing without a single wrinkle.

"Waah, waah, waah...it's too hard to rig and it don't makes enough munneeee !"
Well, perhaps you should go look for a job at McDonalds then.

This "Whatever it takes to bring in the cash" attitude stinks.
Make up your mind, DAZ.
Do you want to supply artists with artist tools, or do you want to be the Mattel of the Poserverse ?

No, don't answer.
Looking at V4, M4, and now Kid-4 the answer is quite clear.

Well, I just discussed this with a friend and I wrote him that after some re-thinking I'm actually quite happy that Kid-4 is such a dissapointment.
V4 is completely useless IMO, but M4 gave me new hope that DAZ would actually listen.
Had Kid-4 been at least as good as M4, I would have thrown out the 10 years of work I so far invested in my 3rd gen "family" and started over again.

Which would have been foolish as both the mesh topology as well as the mapping of the 3rd gen figures is way better than of those subdivided "new and improved" 4th gen figures.

But now I have a good reason to close the 4th gen chapter once and for all.

V4toV3 resculpted to SP3's bodyshape.

Re-rigged to use SP3's joints.
All the "Joint scaling Magnet" stuff went OUT
All the "Morphforms" went OUT.
Already bends better than V4 (See shoulders) but will be more improved later.

Uses all of V4's headmorphs
Uses all of SP3's bodymorphs.
Can wear SP3 clothing.
Much lighter than V4
Much more rugged than V4
And most important, she looks like an actual human being. :-)

Joe, to be fair, in some respects, DAZ simply gave the community what it asked for: "WHY WONT MY PRETTY STEPHANIE TEXTURE WORK ON VICKIE! CANT YOU GUYS MAKE IT EASIER?"

And so they did, with the Unimesh. But the problem with the Unimesh, the way I see it anyway, is that it has to be so polygon intensive to anticipate ALL of the needs that it's like painting in oils, which is really suggestive of moving mud around. It makes this huge, weighty figures unavoidable, which means that unless you have a really powerful machine, you're severely limited in what you can and cannot create. I started to worry about this when I saw how Hiro3 could go from a skinny, smooth anime figure to a detailed, realistic muscleman: the polys needed for such a transformation dont appear out of nowhere, and displacement maps can only do so much.

Well, now we've taken it to the next logical step, I guess. And it's only going to get better (or worse, depending on your point of view).

As for the rigging video that Phantom put up, I have to admit, in all my years of working with the stuff, I never thought to look at the joints to correct that kind of mesh issue. No doubt this is the same problem I see with clothing converted in WW, and now I'll feel more confident about going into those and reworking them for a better fit.

Yeah, "Unimesh" idea was basically just marketing buzz.

The M2-V2 male-female split was much better.
(And M2 still made a very sexy woman as Stephanie 1)
Men and kids don't need high rez boobs or high rez crotches.
But they need muscle/bone detail.

And women don't need that much muscle edgeloops but more vertices for the "womanly" parts.

But I still based my work on the 3rd generation meshes because they have the largest texture support ond the overall rigging is better.

But once you "specialize" your figures and loose all the bodymorphs and most of the head morphs, the footprint will get A LOT smaller.

Quote - Joe, to be fair, in some respects, DAZ simply gave the community what it asked for: "WHY WONT MY PRETTY STEPHANIE TEXTURE WORK ON VICKIE! CANT YOU GUYS MAKE IT EASIER?"

And so they did, with the Unimesh. But the problem with the Unimesh, the way I see it anyway, is that it has to be so polygon intensive to anticipate ALL of the needs that it's like painting in oils, which is really suggestive of moving mud around. It makes this huge, weighty figures unavoidable, which means that unless you have a really powerful machine, you're severely limited in what you can and cannot create. I started to worry about this when I saw how Hiro3 could go from a skinny, smooth anime figure to a detailed, realistic muscleman: the polys needed for such a transformation dont appear out of nowhere, and displacement maps can only do so much.

Well, now we've taken it to the next logical step, I guess. And it's only going to get better (or worse, depending on your point of view).

As for the rigging video that Phantom put up, I have to admit, in all my years of working with the stuff, I never thought to look at the joints to correct that kind of mesh issue. No doubt this is the same problem I see with clothing converted in WW, and now I'll feel more confident about going into those and reworking them for a better fit.

That pretty much sums it up. One size fits all and ease of use comes at the cost of something else.  No matter how you shake it, somene is going to be unhappy and cry bloody murder. So, most businesses try to shoot for the majority. Result of that is a popular, versatile, but  somewhat average product.

Most people and places that do this as a business aren't going to spend exorbitant amount of time doing something merely for the bragging rights of having the most technically advanced product. Once you become a vendor, you realize that most people don't really care all that much about the latest and most advanced stuff.

I think one of the main reasons that the Poser figures that came with the program died is the lack of versatility. So people do want it. If you don't provide it people do complain.

I'm all for variety.
Thick, thin, young, old, black, white, male, female...

You can get pretty much all out of this from a single well made mesh.
(Which the 3rd gen Unimesh is)

But DAZ should stop spreading the myth that you can do all this with a single rig, too, and "flick of a dial" convenience.

Why is it more convenient to load a single 200mb cr2 and then using a pose file to get variety than loading a 20mb standalone figure that already looks like what you have in mind ?

And if you change yur mind, you just load another 20mb standalone figure.
(Using the SAME mesh but DIFFERENT joints)

You still can have more than enough variety with that approach.

Or load a baby if you need a baby.
And a preteen if you need a preteen.
Instead of a "Kid" with broken joints ?

This is how Poser works best.
And the lighter cr2's have lots of other advantages, too.
Why do you think the 4th gen mesh have so many problems ?
Why they do break so easily ?
The more "versatile" you make a mesh, the more complicated it gets.
The more complicated, the easier it breaks.

It's just because DAZ started those "Vicky can be your personal dreamgirl with a few dialspins" that customers (who sadly don't know any better" "demand" versatility.

Just as they now "demand" clothing and props for bargain prices, because Rendo and DAZ brainwashed them with all those "sales".

It's an entitlement mentality that is completely disconnected from reality.
But DAZ is the one to blame because cartering to peoples instincts (CHEAP !) usually makes the most money.

But it pretty much ruined the market for anything else.
(Top notch quality Poser stuff)

From my point of view it's not so much about 'cheap' , rather how easily I can create the variety of character I desire. I'm not exactly flush, but I will pay for what works for me.

JoePublic -Your points about using lindividual rigs for certain meta types of characters do make sense - I'm starting to come around to this idea much more. I'd still suggest you'd need (in each of those Cr2's) a full range of body/head morphs to make them usable (have enough variety  mean).

Of course, at this present time there is nothing quite like this on the market (i.e a complete system of character rigs).There's a mish-mash of different figures but they lack a cohesive approach, which is what I think you need to have. I suppose the Daz approach isn't a million miles away from this idea, but they do seem to milk it for all it's worth with each individual figure they release - they don't sell their figures in terms of being a unified set that all share the same morphs and textures, even though you can achieve this to a greater or lesser degree.

So, have you been working on something like this?

Quote - I think one of the main reasons that the Poser figures that came with the program died is the lack of versatility. So people do want it. If you don't provide it people do complain.

I agree, people have come to expect all those morphs, and various characters from a single mesh. Which is good perhaps for the business that is creating the figures that people want.  But I think its also sad, it makes people lazy, they dont have the need to get their hands dirty and make those morphs themselves. Or to learn much about the apps they use.

Different rigs for different figures Is of course what I would prefer too LOL. But it does create a lot of extra work. But I think that more and more, that is becoming a viable option. You have WW for clothes, and Cage has been writting a PY for doing the same thing with morphs. Plus you have morphing clothes. Once we have enough avenues of transfering between differently rigged figures (which may be now) This option could become popular.

You can honestly only do so much with size and shape befor you really need to move and readjust the joints. I've always thought an obese figure, an average figure and an emaciated figure could cover pretty much the full range of body types. Using morphs etc to get all varients in between. The same for different age groups if you had a few well made well rigged figures at different ages you could cover all in between.  Like stepping instead of going from full sized full grown human to a very young child.

Quote - From my point of view it's not so much about 'cheap' , rather how easily I can create the variety of character I desire. I'm not exactly flush, but I will pay for what works for me.

JoePublic -Your points about using lindividual rigs for certain meta types of characters do make sense - I'm starting to come around to this idea much more. I'd still suggest you'd need (in each of those Cr2's) a full range of body/head morphs to make them usable (have enough variety  mean).

Of course, at this present time there is nothing quite like this on the market (i.e a complete system of character rigs).There's a mish-mash of different figures but they lack a cohesive approach, which is what I think you need to have. I suppose the Daz approach isn't a million miles away from this idea, but they do seem to milk it for all it's worth with each individual figure they release - they don't sell their figures in terms of being a unified set that all share the same morphs and textures, even though you can achieve this to a greater or lesser degree.

So, have you been working on something like this?

Where it becomes troublesome is in clothing support, which is often crucial to figure success. Most clothing makers, those of us who like to make detailed stuff anyway, and who are trying to pay bills doing this, can only succesfully support one or two figures.

This means that if Aiko, and the Girl, and Elite series and She freak, and hiro, and freak etc, were all using separate rigs (as opposed to being morphs on a single rig) I would not be able to afford the time to make a separate piece for each one. Especially since each of those figures would sell considerably fewer number of pieces. Poserdom as a market is small enough that for people like me, selling fewer number of pieces doesn't mean a difference between making a lot of money, and a little bit less... but a difference between, do I make my bills this month or not.

So, it becomes a catch 22, what direction to take, unimesh concept, and more clothing, or more optimized base figure, better nudes, less clothing. Figure not having enough clothing support is yet another very contentious thing in poserdom, where a lot of people feel snubbed and ignored, while the reality of the situation is, most clothing makers can't keep up.

That's another thing, if poser rigging was more modernized, making clothing would be lot less time consuming too, and we'd be able to make more stuff, for a greater variety of figures..

Of course, dynamic clothing is always an option ;o). You can make a piece of clothing made for one figure fit another with just a little time on rescaling and maybe a magnet or two here and there. Nope, it's not as simple as conforming clothing and it ain't gonna happen in one click and one minute, but in the end, it looks much better.

Laurie (a fan of dynamic clothing)

I always find it fascinating when people say they want "versatility", because it usually means "how big can I make these titties?" Let's face it, there's not a whole lot of versatility out there -- it's like the old New Yorker cartoon of the couple telling their friends, "We never go to restaurants or movies or museums or plays... but it's nice to know they're there."

Quote - Most clothing makers, those of us who like to make detailed stuff anyway, and who are trying to pay bills doing this, can only succesfully support one or two figures.

Which sounds to me like a very good reason to not go around insulting your customer base.

More than not, this discussion proves one point more than any other...

Even the advancements made in the software do not get use. People (for a reason totally unknown to me) still want MAT files when we haven't needed them for years (but DS still uses them). We still for some reason want conforming clothing instead of dynamics when dynamics is more versitile, doesn't depend in the least on joints or anything else and looks superior in the end. All because it's "easier" (opinions may vary ;o)).

Laurie

I think, from this end-user's point of view (I'm really just an artist wanting to concentrate on composing and making pictures), what I've always wanted in Poser is the ability to create any given character (at least in terms of human forms) without having to spend an in-ordinate amount of time either shopping around to find suitable figures and morphs (which may end up being badly made) or having to make endless adjustments to achieve it.

I don't think this makes me a lazy Poser user - I just have other focuses for the time and enery I'm putting into projects. I can and do make my own tweak morphs and textures etc, I do adjust jp's (albeit in a very limited way) and I do use both the hair and cloth room regularly and with very pleasing results. It's important to know about and be able to use the tools to some degree.
Incidentally, I've always had a problem using conforming clothes - I love dynamics and use them for all projects now. The time it takes to run the sims seem minimal compared to the amount of time it used to take to sort oy pokethrough and deformed meshes due to one problem or another.

To me it's all about systems. IMO as an end user you need reliable systems of some kind (whether it be single versatile figures or the multiple rig concept) in order to have a reasonably manageable workflow. The alternative is that we all end up having to learn all the tools and processes in all their minute detail - which to do to an expert level with something like rigging alone takes a lot of time and just doesn't make sense in my mind. Better to have some experts in certain fields - they cam make stuff that we then buy - good for the economy.
I'm not averse to learning to use the tools any given system requires, but if the process of coming up with a character I have in mind for a project takes too much time and then doesn't work well anyway, it kills the creativity and momentum for that project.

Another problem for me (certainly when I came to Poser 7 or 8 years ago) is that there don't really seem to be any particularly well defined or documented systems/processes for character design in Poser - step-by-step, start to finish I mean (perhaps there are in books in the marketplace).  Sure, there were and still are lots of apparent ways of doing so, and a vast amount of quality 'bits' of info (tutorials to cover this aspect or that) but there's an overriding lack of cohesion to much of the process of using Poser and it's tools & content. Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing that there are lots of options, but it's an overwhelming experience for the newcomer (and sometimes the veteran user), even if they do have some knowledge of 3d and image making before they start.

Thats true carodan didn't mean to call you lazy :biggrin: I guess it all depends on what you're goals are.  I havn't had time in years to actually sit down and put together a nice scene and render it.

>> "there don't really seem to be any particularly well defined or documented systems/processes for character design in Poser"

That's because Poser was never meant for that kind of work. It was designed to be an artist's tool, but not an end tool, which is why the wholesale character transformations we see as morphs have all been created in something else, like Max.

Quote - Thats true carodan didn't mean to call you lazy :biggrin: I guess it all depends on what you're goals are.  I havn't had time in years to actually sit down and put together a nice scene and render it.

LOL - I usually run out of time to do anything more complex than a single clothed figure and a backdrop. If I ever make it to retirement age (quite a few years off yet) and have some quality time for this medium I'm gonna have a ball.

Frankly I DO still use the figures that come with Poser, always have used them more than DAZ figures. I do make my own morphs & dynamic clothing and Dynamic hair and I do mess around with JP's on figures as well as Props. Lazy doesn't even come into it. What I don't do much of anymore is post my work around here.

Quote - >> "there don't really seem to be any particularly well defined or documented systems/processes for character design in Poser"

That's because Poser was never meant for that kind of work. It was designed to be an artist's tool, but not an end tool, which is why the wholesale character transformations we see as morphs have all been created in something else, like Max.

I suppose it depends on what you define character design to be. If you consider the base figure in itself as a development tool, what I mean is using the dial spins to create a certain variation from the base, then using magnets and (since P7) the morph-brush tool to refine this. Then spawning the body-parts to create a single full body morph so you can loose the development morphs from the Cr2 and save to the library. Took me an age to find the info to work through all those bits so I could end up with a reasonably light Cr2 for extensive use in graphic projects, and as time has gone on more tools have come along to make this process much easier.
You've been able to do this kind of character creation from inside Poser for some time, but I'm not sure if there are even now (m)any comprehensive and up-to-date step-by-step guides for doing this - or how easy they would be to find by the new user.

I still use Poser renders as basic painting references from time to time (mostly to get a rough idea of how light falls across a form), but it's moved a long way on from being limited to this usage now. I've exhibited pretty much un-post-worked Poser renders in small exhibitions on several occasions.

Left to right:

1. SP3 "LoRes".
   Derived from V3RR given SP3's shape.
   Mostly a bigger head, new neck and better shoulders and other minor rigging improvements.
   Keep her around to quickly create fully clothed "casual" figures with fused on clothing.
   Despite being called "Petite", her proportions are actually that of a pretty tall woman.

2. HANA. V3RR/SP3 hybrid.
   Sculpted in ZBrush after a real woman.
   No "artistic license" here.
   Except for the face which "just happened", I made her as accurate as I could. She just is that thin.
   Uses heavily modifed SP3 rigging.

3. Aneta.
   Yep, looks like a V3/MIKI hybrid, but she isn't.
   Again using V3RR/SP3 mesh.
   Sculpted in ZBrush after the same real life girl MIKI was sculpted after, so they look similar.
   Only my version is more exact, as I didn't ballon her boobs. ;-)
   The rigging is again based on SP3 with a lot of changes.

1. Martin.
   M3RR/David mesh.
   Older, completely "average" guy.
   Modified David rigging.

2. M3RR "normal".
   M3RR made to look less towering.
   Use him mostly to quickly create clothed "casual" figures.

Love Mr Big - these are exactly the extremes of characters I love - thanks for posting these.

Again a V3RR/SP3 hybrid.
SP3 is way too tall so the idea was to create a variation with truly "average" or "below average"  height.
Still kept her overall sculpting so that I could easily modify SP3 or V3 clothing.
Lots of rigging improvements.

And as you can see, she's still a "tiny" bit versatile.

;-)

Thank you, carodan.
Yes, the extremes are surely the most fun.

He first started as an M3RR/Rikishi  hybrid, but I really wasn't happy with that.
So I  started resculpting/regrouping David.
He's NOT a "bodybag" but was sculpted by hand.
Still he fits fine into Rikishi's clothes.

Well, I have to say that I'm getting really interested in this concept of an end user character development kit consisting of multiple rigged base figures that share one or two core meshes ( male and female presumably).

It sounds like it'd be quite an undertaking as a project though - one for a serious collaboratation of several creators over quite a period of time, and requiring some thoughtful planning to provide a cohesive system.

I think, as Phantom3d and others have suggested, tools like Wardrobe Wizard and the morph transfer script would start to make this quite a realististic proposition in terms of an ensured clothing support.

I'd love to see something as ambitious as this realised as a solid development.

Ok, I don't think it's legal to post any pictures of the kid's mesh, but after viewing the video from Phantom3d, I was very hopeful.  I had never seen the "necksmooy"  little adjustable line in Poser.

I managed to fix the arms and legs scaling using that method, it's fantastic.  However, I saw no actual parameters being changed in either the Joint Editor palette or the Parameters palette.  So my first question is, what exactly am I changing when I grab and stretch/compress that little line?  Is there anywhere I can see that parameter and adjust it manually?  When the joints are set up, is that an automatic joint parameter like twist/bend/side-side, or can I set up another one, like necksmooZ?

Why?  Because the neck was a different issue.  The neck in the toddler morph of the Kids is y-scaled down, not stretched out, and for some reason that's making the neck, in Poser (not Daz), squish out along the z-axis (didn't seem to affect the x-axis).  Nothing I did with the necksmooy joint (with or without falloff spheres) would correct that. 

Is there anywhere else I could look and adjust?  (hmm... perhaps I should duplicate this on a public figure and post?)  Is Antonia available to everyone?

Of course it's okay to post pictures of the mesh. It's distributing the mesh that they kinda frown on.

Thanks Sean,  :)

I'll put together some pics and post the issues.  I'm passing out shortly, so it will be 24 hrs.

Indi.

Quote - I always find it fascinating when people say they want "versatility", because it usually means "how big can I make these titties?" Let's face it, there's not a whole lot of versatility out there -- it's like the old New Yorker cartoon of the couple telling their friends, "We never go to restaurants or movies or museums or plays... but it's nice to know they're there."

Some guys like them big, some guys like them little, or no tittes at all.
See, its' all about the titties.

[Kitty ducking and running...........]

Quote - Of course, dynamic clothing is always an option ;o). You can make a piece of clothing made for one figure fit another with just a little time on rescaling and maybe a magnet or two here and there. Nope, it's not as simple as conforming clothing and it ain't gonna happen in one click and one minute, but in the end, it looks much better.

Laurie (a fan of dynamic clothing)

I'm a fan too, and many of the OBj files for clothing Crs in your runtime can be converted to cloth. and it sizes good too , thin to fat ,muscular and so on.

In case anyone is interested about the latest on the scaling thing:
http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=137495&start=231

The lack of full Poser compatibility would make more sense if Daz Studio had essential features like IK or a cloth engine that wasn't just a ploy to sell exclusive content. Of course, in a serious business, there is probably the realization that most people use Daz Studio and Poser to render junk anyway. Why bother with advanced features with a user base that largely doesn't know the difference between high quality and junk? The dolls are to be cranked out, purchased and largely forgotten a short time later. People want things regardless of whether they will use them.

Quote - The lack of full Poser compatibility would make more sense if Daz Studio had essential features like IK or a cloth engine that wasn't just a ploy to sell exclusive content. Of course, in a serious business, there is probably the realization that most people use Daz Studio and Poser to render junk anyway. Why bother with advanced features with a user base that largely doesn't know the difference between high quality and junk? The dolls are to be cranked out, purchased and largely forgotten a short time later. People want things regardless of whether they will use them.

Sadly, you're right. We dont let things develop or mature much; we just grab up the next bright n shiny, put it in a couple of renders, and then move on to the next one.

For the bulk of my work, I've been using the same mesh for almost six years. Thanks to WW, I have a huge wardrobe for it and -- now, thanks to Phantom -- I'll be able to fine tune that even more. My investment in Poser stuff these days is next to zero, and I'm pushing out even more work than I used to.

Yes, I have a frightful number of CDs of Poser materials (dont ask how many: right now it's almost embrassing), most of which I bought on a whim, with the thought of "gosh, I know I'll use that somehow!". And someitmes I actually do LOL: it took a few years, but I finally got around to finishing that Gilgamesh series with things Id bought almost four years before.

But I look at the interchangable skins and interchangable head morphs and I think "Do people actually buy this stuff" Maybe they do. Maybe that;s how the market is designed to work, like a e-version of McDonalds.

Quote - I managed to fix the arms and legs scaling using that method, it's fantastic.  However, I saw no actual parameters being changed in either the Joint Editor palette or the Parameters palette.  So my first question is, what exactly am I changing when I grab and stretch/compress that little line?  Is there anywhere I can see that parameter and adjust it manually?  When the joints are set up, is that an automatic joint parameter like twist/bend/side-side, or can I set up another one, like necksmooZ?

Go back into the Joint Editor, after changing. You should see a different bottom start value