Attached Link: http://youtu.be/ogVjot24X20

> Quote - > As to animatable joint centers.. forgive my ignorance here.. but isn't that just like a check box that can be hit in each body part to bring up the offset dials?  Or is there something else that must be done?

 

http://youtu.be/ogVjot24X20

@wolf359 : Thanks ! While I'm not much of an Poser animator, I was quite unimpressed by that new "physics" engine, too. SM notoriously tacks on new "features" that take one or even more new iterations of Poser before they become actual usable. The Morph Brush was introduced in 2006 and didn't even work across groups in the beginning. And only now they fixed the corruption that occured when you mirrored a morph more than once. I'm an "PP-2014" early adopter, but only because I can make any figure work in Poser. If I couldn't do the things I can do, or simply wanted to make nice pictures with a few mouseclicks, I'd rather download Studio and spend a few weeks (re-)learning it. DAZ might have lost a lot of Poser customers, but I'm sure winning over the 3D newbies with easy to use, yet high quality figures, made more than up for it. Still, all those disgruntled "DAZ-haters" still promote them indirectly by using V4 and her content, and I'm sure would forget about their grudge the second there would be a fully Poser compatible Vicky out there. ;-)

@AmbientShade: Thanks for explaing your re-symmetry workflow. Guess one of these days I'll have to upgrade ZBrush, if only to see if that GoZBrush thingy works as well as people say it does ! :-)

Quote - But it's a lot of work to make those morphs manually in Poser, while it's a simple click-click-click set-up in Studio. For Genesis. You simply morph a new shape and the rigging snaps back into place, and then both the morph as well as the new joint centers are a single morph dial.

Only because it was already set up for you to function that way in DS/Genesis. 

The same simplicity can be set up in a figure's rig in Poser, by the figure's creator, OR by the figure's user, if it wasn't built into the rig originally. On top of that, 3rd party character creators can expand on it by creating custom injections, where they decide how the joints are repositioned, instead of having the program do it for them automatically, which may not give the same results as what they're wanting.

 

And that's what I prefer about Poser, over DS. Poser is a bit more hands-on, but by being that way, it allows for much more control and customization than it's given credit for. 

 

~Shane

Quote - @AmbientShade: Thanks for explaing your re-symmetry workflow. Guess one of these days I'll have to upgrade ZBrush, if only to see if that GoZBrush thingy works as well as people say it does ! :-)

 

You should. Your work will be that much better for it (and faster). And I'm sure over time SM will be adding more features to the GoZ plugin. At least I hope they do. 

 

~Shane

Shane, that might very well be all like you say it, but don't forget that almost all Poser/Studio content creators are advanced amateurs or semi professional at best. So, tools to simplify the content creation process are very important. I was always extremely reluctant to, for example, re-rig the hands of one of my custom figures, because that is such a chore and you can easily mess up with joint orientations. I rather re-rigged the rest of the body but left the hands in place so I didn't have to deal with it. Being able to simply morph a figure and then let the new rig "auto-snap" back in place would be an imense help in Poser, even if the result would be only 99% perfect. Yes, Poser has the tech to have a Genesis style figure and I've already shown a few examples in the past. But it's one thing to have a prototype and another thing to have a fully supported, complete figure line that is basically "idiot proof" and is backed up by profesional marketing. Let's just admit the "war" is over and let us start to rebuild instead of trying to prolong the suffering by hoping for another "saviour mesh". My opinion might change, of course, depending on what is happening in the future, but right now, I think our best course of action would be to pester SmithMicro for better Genesis integration and trying to find ways to make Genesis at its current state to be as usable as possible in Poser. (I bet a good python coder could automate some of the manual fixes I'm currently making) The "My way or the highway" attitude of the disgruntled "My Poser, right or wrong" patriots will only lead to a slow decline because new users only care about one thing: The figures.

Quote - Yes, Poser has the tech to have a Genesis style figure and I've already shown a few examples in the past. But it's one thing to have a prototype and another thing to have a fully supported, complete figure line that is basically "idiot proof" and is backed up by profesional marketing.

Anyone that buys Poser has all the figures that come with Poser. They don't have to buy $150 worth of extra content (morphs, poses, etc) from anyone else in order to start using them. Really can't get better marketing than that. 

I agree that Poser needs better figures.

I don't agree that Poser needs Genesis. 

Leave Genesis in DS where it belongs.

If DAZ wanted to make Genesis functional in Poser they could do that, without DSON. You've proven it with your own prototypes. They don't want to do that because they want their users using Genesis in DS.

 

And this thread is supposed to be about flaws in Poser figures and ways to improve/update them. Not being Genesis doesn't count as a valid flaw. 

I have nothing against improved content creation tools in Poser, as long as it doesn't pigeonhole me into doing it ONLY this way OR that way. I like Posers open-ended approach that allows figures to be created in multiple ways and do various things. I don't mind working a little bit harder to achieve exactly the results I want or need. It's not rocket science. Poser is not difficult to learn or master and never really has been. Sure there are some frustrating components to it that need ironing out, but every software has that no matter who makes it. Try mastering Maya. Now there's some difficulty for you.  

 

~Shane

I have a feeling that HiveWire will come  up with another figure - maybe a male or a teen, that will be very much better.  Dawn was just the start, and I feel she has too many flaws to be a main character for my comic.  I would think the promo rendering people would have made a big effort to make her look good, but I haven't seen many promos that i've liked of dawn particularly.

One or two were excellent I have to say.  But those were invariably with her not smiling.

Rox's,Dawn,V5 are all just a mesh.

What ever you can do with one you can do with the other in zBrush ,Maya.

Atually if Poser had all of Maya tools .would be killer.

Quote - It will be cool if one day somebody comes out with a figure that bends perfectly in every pose.  But if Pixar needs, what was it, seventeen rigged versions(?) of a toon for proper bending in various situations then I'm not gonna hold my breath for a miracle Poser character that bends perfectly in all situations.  I'm very happy with the figures I have.  None of them pose well with their arms straight up over their heads.  Shrug.  So what?  I won't make any basketball animations ;)  If we let various shortcomings of content bog us down we'll never get anything done.  The other day I had a problem making a shoe fit Angela2.  No problem.  I put a potted plant in front of it so it couldn't be seen.

Tunesy

Quote - I have a feeling that HiveWire will come  up with another figure - maybe a male or a teen, that will be very much better.  Dawn was just the start, and I feel she has too many flaws to be a main character for my comic.  I would think the promo rendering people would have made a big effort to make her look good, but I haven't seen many promos that i've liked of dawn particularly.

One or two were excellent I have to say.  But those were invariably with her not smiling.

The male figure is called Dusk.  No idea on ETA, but since the folks making him are from DAZ, I am expecting it "soon".

Pixar could afford MoCap or any tech they wanted.
So If Pixar had 17 rigs for one mesh
,it's just cause that's the way they wanted it done.
Not cause that's the way Pixar had to.

DAZ Poser rigs
Some of it's they don't know how to rig.
Some of it's they rig for diffrent versions.
Some of it's compromise for Morphs so the rigs work with a gaint warrior and a small elf.
Some of it's for conforming cloths.

only DAZ Poser ,make human has morphs from boys to girls monsters & conforming cloths.

to do this they compromise on rigs.

"Pixar could afford MoCap or any tech they wanted.
So If Pixar had 17 rigs for one mesh
,it's just cause that's the way they wanted it done.
Not cause that's the way Pixar had to."

I don't buy that.  For starters, what's your mocap source going to be for a toon figure with proportions and movements that don't resemble any existing humans or animals?  I'm sure if there was a way to rig a single instance of a figure to bend properly in all situations Pixar would be doing that and not paying to do the rigging sixteen additional times.  So, if any Poser creators come up with a way to make a figure that bends perfectly in all situations don't sell it here.  Sell it to Pixar.

I have been playing with the Genesis 2 male (no flames please!) and its a really nice looking mesh  As seen here it incorporates geometry that follows the human musculature that AmbientShade noted as important in another thread (there is even geometry at vertebra 7!).  The "Male" and "Female"  meshes appear to be morphs of the same mesh, and I exported the male and brought it into Poser as a morph target of the Female, and the morph works and even bends decently when applied.

 

Quote - My advice ?

Make a deal with DAZ and licence Genesis 1 or 2. (If we get HD technology in the future, there will be no noticeable difference between them, so I'd actually prefer Genesis 1)

Rework it so that it a) works natively in Poser and b) give it a new default morph it loads with so that Poser has it's own signature figure for marketing reasons. It would still be Genesis, but "our" Genesis.

(After all, Dork and Posette were licensed from Zygote which later became DAZ, so I don't see any "ethical" problem here)

---

Other than that, copy Genesis as closely as you can get away with it....

There is something to this; one can copy it really closely, and here's how;

One can simply export it from Studio as a cr2, and drop in a new rig.  You would need a script to strip out the weightmaps and the rig could be put in with Poser Place's Applicator script a la V4WM. 

 

Secondly, someone noted that Poser figures are text files.  So are DSON files.  They are simply Gzipped, as are Poser's compressed files.  Inside is stuff like this...

*    "geometry_library" : [*
*        {*
*            "id" : "blSubDragon",*
*            "name" : "blSubDragon",*
*            "type" : "subdivision_surface",*
*            "edge_interpolation_mode" : "edges_only",*
*            "vertices" : {*
*                "count" : 14162,*
*                "values" : [*
*                    [ 29.70971, 125.0082, 56.91178 ],*
*                    [ 29.22422, 125.4993, 56.91933 ],*
*                    [ 35.0303, 131.3556, 57.66353 ],*

One could should be able to write a python script to extract the geometry from the .duf files and have a cr2 that references that file and contains a new Poser rig.   If the python is not feasible, just grab the .obj from DSON Importer...

 

EDIT To explore compressed DSON files use 7-zip.  In Windows Explorer, Right click on the .duf and from the 7-zip menu select "Open Archive"...

Quote -One could should be able to write a python script to extract the geometry from the .duf files and have a cr2 that references that file and contains a new Poser rig.   If the python is not feasible, just grab the .obj from DSON Importer...

Without proper licensing, that would most likely be against DAZ's EULA.

There have been other attempts to make a redistributable figure based on DAZ figures, and all of them have been shot down. 

Even if such a license was granted, every time Genesis mesh changed (should be sometime next year if they keep to their current schedule), a new license would have to be granted, and a new Poser rig built. 

Plus, Genesis' mesh is not all that great. It lacks important details that other Poser meshes actually do have. Seratus and abdominals, for example.

SM needs its own refined mesh that they can do with what they want, without being shackled to somebody else's. Why they haven't been refining their best meshes over the years instead of continually creating new ones is beyond me, but they could always start. 

 

~Shane

Daz changed its EULA this past year, and derivative works are allowed if they require the DAZ product they are derived from and they don't duplicate an existing DAZ product.  A built-from-scratch cr2 that requires the geometry from Genesis Base that has to be obtained from DAZ falls well within those confines; it would be no more infringing than V4WM.

SM's business just isn't figures.  Even E-frontier, who is in that line, didn't get it right with the G2 figures...

I like the G2 figures.

 

 

I'm actually glad to hear you say that...  not as anything against genesis2 (I do like the mesh also, its a bit more detailed than dawns)... but I was looking at it after reading some of the shortcomings you posted about dawns mesh and thinking that some of those shortcomings could be leveled at Genesis 2 also.  

 

I think your right though.. it would be fantastic if SM would take one of their best mesh and focus on making it the best figure it could be vs the unending parade of not quite fully baked figures

Quote -  

Plus, Genesis' mesh is not all that great. It lacks important details that other Poser meshes actually do have. Seratus and abdominals, for example.

SM needs its own refined mesh that they can do with what they want, without being shackled to somebody else's. Why they haven't been refining their best meshes over the years instead of continually creating new ones is beyond me, but they could always start. 

 

~Shane

While this is true.. and, provided the rig was completely original, there is not much daz could do about it(same as v4WM... but you break a lot of the content this way as well.  Clothing wouldnt likely be 'too' difficult to get working but ANY work seems to be too much for a lot of users.

Does it really need a new rig though?  I was under the impression that the new genesis bends about as well in poser as it does in studio... or is that not true?

 

Quote - I have been playing with the Genesis 2 male (no flames please!) and its a really nice looking mesh  As seen here it incorporates geometry that follows the human musculature that AmbientShade noted as important in another thread (there is even geometry at vertebra 7!).  The "Male" and "Female"  meshes appear to be morphs of the same mesh, and I exported the male and brought it into Poser as a morph target of the Female, and the morph works and even bends decently when applied.

 

Quote - My advice ?

Make a deal with DAZ and licence Genesis 1 or 2. (If we get HD technology in the future, there will be no noticeable difference between them, so I'd actually prefer Genesis 1)

Rework it so that it a) works natively in Poser and b) give it a new default morph it loads with so that Poser has it's own signature figure for marketing reasons. It would still be Genesis, but "our" Genesis.

(After all, Dork and Posette were licensed from Zygote which later became DAZ, so I don't see any "ethical" problem here)

---

Other than that, copy Genesis as closely as you can get away with it....

There is something to this; one can copy it really closely, and here's how;

One can simply export it from Studio as a cr2, and drop in a new rig.  You would need a script to strip out the weightmaps and the rig could be put in with Poser Place's Applicator script a la V4WM. 

 

Secondly, someone noted that Poser figures are text files.  So are DSON files.  They are simply Gzipped, as are Poser's compressed files.  Inside is stuff like this...

*    "geometry_library" : [*
*        {*
*            "id" : "blSubDragon",*
*            "name" : "blSubDragon",*
*            "type" : "subdivision_surface",*
*            "edge_interpolation_mode" : "edges_only",*
*            "vertices" : {*
*                "count" : 14162,*
*                "values" : [*
*                    [ 29.70971, 125.0082, 56.91178 ],*
*                    [ 29.22422, 125.4993, 56.91933 ],*
*                    [ 35.0303, 131.3556, 57.66353 ],*

One could should be able to write a python script to extract the geometry from the .duf files and have a cr2 that references that file and contains a new Poser rig.   If the python is not feasible, just grab the .obj from DSON Importer...

 

EDIT To explore compressed DSON files use 7-zip.  In Windows Explorer, Right click on the .duf and from the 7-zip menu select "Open Archive"...

Quote - Daz changed its EULA this past year, and derivative works are allowed if they require the DAZ product they are derived from and they don't duplicate an existing DAZ product.  A built-from-scratch cr2 that requires the geometry from Genesis Base that has to be obtained from DAZ falls well within those confines; it would be no more infringing than V4WM.

Until DAZ decides to change their EULA. Again. 

Which they could do at any point they choose. 

So the only sure way of safely building a Poser-built Genesis is for someone to license it from them.

Plus, it wouldn't function in DS fully if it was built for Poser. So you create more confusion among the user base and the vendor base and the crowd is still split over which version to support, just like with Dawn. 

So again I say SM needs its own quality, refined mesh that functions optimally with Poser's tech. The mesh is only half the process anyway. The rig is where all the magic happens. They're symbiotic. If one sucks then the other won't be nearly as good as it could be. 

Quote - Does it really need a new rig though?  I was under the impression that the new genesis bends about as well in poser as it does in studio... or is that not true?

The basic skeleton/rig wouldn't have to change much, (bones, JPs), but in order to get the full functionality of a Genesis type figure in Poser, Genesis' rig would have to be Poserized. It doesn't function as well in Poser as it does in DS because the software is different, so the rigs have to be built differently. A Poser-built rig wouldn't function as well in DS for the same reasons.

Laying out bones and adjusting JPs is only about 25% of what actually goes into rigging a figure. Weight maps, JCMs, magnets (if necessary), animated joints, proper scaling setup and ERCs make up the other 75%. Those are the areas where DS and Poser don't agree, because while they both do those things, the coding for it is completely different between the two platforms, so they don't translate the same. 

 

~Shane

Quote - It will be cool if one day somebody comes out with a figure that bends perfectly in every pose.

 

Yeah, but humans are rigged about as good as they're gonna get. and you can't morph them or change their texture's worth a damn either.

Just this. Eye lashes. If they were part of the character's own mesh I'd use that character. Hint hint wink wink. ( -.^)/

Just so we are all on the same page, some renders of Michael 6 in PP-2014 with his HD morphs. The only thing I did with Michael 6 to adapt him to Poser so far was to make three different cr2's with three different object files: One for the M4 UVs, the M5 UVs and the M6 UVs. Took me about 15 minutes each. Could he be improved ? Sure, my custom rigged David 3 and M4LOD still bend better in some extreme poses, and the 70.000 polygon David 3 of course can be more detailed than vanilla 21.000 polygon M6 can without the HD morphs. (But with the HD technology, M6 can be as detailed as your computer allows, so any missing detail could be readily added without breaking content) My point is: A single person simply cannot build an equivalent figure system. You need a small army of modellers and content creators and a nice marketing budget. In other words, you need a sh*tload of money to push a new defacto figure standard. Think of VHS vs Betamax and Blueray vs HD-DVD. A single figure without tons of morphs hoping for "open source" community support instead of DAZ' marketing might simply won't have the staying power to do that, even if it would be technically superior in a few aspects. (The heavy hitters, the inventors, the movers and shakers of this community are for the most part long gone, disgusted by the commercialization of Poser) I've seen them all come and go in 13 years: Apollo, Renda, Eva, Antonia, all the custom rigged Posettes. Seen several über-talents burn out by the harsh reality of this little corner of the CGI-universe. If someone wants to build a figure "just because", as a statement of his talent, I'm all for it. That's why I release my weightmaps. Share a little, show off a little, make a few people happy. But I'd never seriously would spend my time creating or supporting a figure in the hopes of competing with DAZ. I simply don't believe that a single person with limited monetary means could break DAZ' monopoly, and I don't think we should delay working with what we actually have any further. "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" as the saying goes. DAZ is a buisiness entity, so I wouldn't shed a tear if tomorrow another buisiness entity replaced them with an even better figure. I also flamed Vicky 4 (And M4 and K4) enough in the past to proof that I definitely don't cut them some slack. But all things considered, my money right now is on Genesis.

Backside

Action

They got it right with Ryan but totally forgot to add any type of breast deformation/lift/movement when Alyson moves her arms up or down/back or front. I don't understand how something so simple was overlooked and it just annoys the hell out of me. The problem was brought to Miki4 if you select and move her collar parts, the chest is completely unaffected and is another oversight that bugs the crap out of me.

Breast/chest movement when arms are moved should be a no-brianer, so why are the newer figures not including these movements?

I don't have the newest PP to test Roxie so I have no clue if she's missing the movements or not.

Quote - "Pixar could afford MoCap or any tech they wanted.
So If Pixar had 17 rigs for one mesh
,it's just cause that's the way they wanted it done.
Not cause that's the way Pixar had to."

I don't buy that.  For starters, what's your mocap source going to be for a toon figure with proportions and movements that don't resemble any existing humans or animals?  I'm sure if there was a way to rig a single instance of a figure to bend properly in all situations Pixar would be doing that and not paying to do the rigging sixteen additional times.  So, if any Poser creators come up with a way to make a figure that bends perfectly in all situations don't sell it here.  Sell it to Pixar.

Probably should have said
Pixar can aford any tech they want MoCap,Rigs etc etc.
Guess I should have specified what charaters in Shrek could be MoCaped.
All the Bipeds can be MoCaped buy a real human .
Shrek ,Fiona even the cat when he stands upright.

 

 

 

Quote - > Quote -

As to animatable joint centers.. forgive my ignorance here.. but isn't that just like a check box that can be hit in each body part to bring up the offset dials?  Or is there something else that must be done?

 

http://youtu.be/ogVjot24X20

 

Just as i thought..  so really anyone can add animated joint centers if it becomes necessary for a particular morph they are making for any figure.  Are the animated joint centers distributable with something like an injection pose?

 

I have to agree with you on this.. though G2F has this feature and (at least in my friends version of poser) her boobs are rotated in oposing direction at all times unless you limit her pectoral bones to zero roatation in the parameter editor.  Itried to much about and help fix it, but it seems something is gibbled in the dependancies she imports with via dson

Quote - They got it right with Ryan but totally forgot to add any type of breast deformation/lift/movement when Alyson moves her arms up or down/back or front. I don't understand how something so simple was overlooked and it just annoys the hell out of me. The problem was brought to Miki4 if you select and move her collar parts, the chest is completely unaffected and is another oversight that bugs the crap out of me.

Breast/chest movement when arms are moved should be a no-brianer, so why are the newer figures not including these movements?

I don't have the newest PP to test Roxie so I have no clue if she's missing the movements or not.

Joe, you're asking for Smith Micro to sell out to DAZ because you seem to think no one else is capable of building a realistic human model. 

I don't see that happening. 

Maybe at some point they'll concede and do just that. I think that if they thought Genesis was a threat then they already would have invested in their own Genesis, or in licensing Genesis and its tech from DAZ. 

DAZ doesn't have the market cornered on human models. If that were the case then you'd see DAZ's figures in all sorts of media - tv, games, etc. I've personally never seen a single DAZ figure being used in anything that didn't come out of DAZ's promo ads - (aside from the hobbyist renders that litter the internet), while I see James and other Poser figures being used in tv commercials, tv series and product ads at stores all the time.

There are tons of solo artists out there that can sculpt, rig and animate humans that are far more realistic than anything DAZ has ever done. If you spent a little time visiting the higher end 3D sites you'll see plenty of examples every day. 

The bottom line is, the only way Genesis is ever going to get into Poser natively is if SmithMicro wants it in there, and so far they have made it pretty clear that they don't. The only other way it will happen is if DAZ decides to make a Poser-native version themselves, and so far they've made it pretty clear that they have no intention of ever doing so. 

It's great that you've gotten Genesis to work in Poser for your own work, and any other Poser user who wants to do so can follow your examples, and all your demo threads on how to do so. But continously ranting about how Genesis should be native to Poser, especially in a forum that isn't even an official Poser forum, only leads to threads getting locked. You know that I respect your work, and several others here do as well, but this argument is old and tired and after 3 years, none of it has changed a single thing. It's only caused good threads to go bad. And I really have to question, since you have done all the things you've done with your own Genesis figures, why do you care whether it's native to Poser or not? You aren't a vendor and you can clearly make all your figures be whatever you want them to be already, in either platform. So why the constant rants?

I like Genesis too, I think it's a pretty cool figure. And when I want to use it, I use it in DS, where it was designed to work its best. But I don't want to see Poser sell out and lose it's open ended feel where everything has to look and function the same or nobody wants to use it. 

Let DS do what it does best, and let Poser do what it does best, and the users will decide which one they want to use for themselves, like it has been all along. And please, stop turning every thread about figures into a Genesis-Should-Be-In-Poser thread. 

 

~Shane

You know you all could buy what ever characters,cloths etc etc ya wanted .
load them in Blender,LW,C4D,Max,Maya,Softimage.Have any and all tools at your finger tips.

Blender,LW,C4D,Max,Maya,Softimage Don't care if they where made for DAZ or Poser.

Just a thought....

Quote - Just as i thought..  so really anyone can add animated joint centers if it becomes necessary for a particular morph they are making for any figure.  Are the animated joint centers distributable with something like an injection pose?

In theory, yes. Nerd3D has a tutorial on their site on how to do just that.

 

~Shane

"...though G2F has this feature and (at least in my friends version of poser) her boobs are rotated in oposing direction at all times unless you limit her pectoral bones to zero roatation in the parameter editor." G2F works perfectly fine on my machine, including her automated breast movement. Did your friend upgrade his version of Poser, the G2F installer, the companion files and also the DSON importer to the latest versions ? DAZ is constantly updating them, so it's easy to fall behind a version or two.

Quote - "...though G2F has this feature and (at least in my friends version of poser) her boobs are rotated in oposing direction at all times unless you limit her pectoral bones to zero roatation in the parameter editor." G2F works perfectly fine on my machine, including her automated breast movement. Did your friend upgrade his version of Poser, the G2F installer, the companion files and also the DSON importer to the latest versions ? DAZ is constantly updating them, so it's easy to fall behind a version or two.

we re-downloaded & re-installed the files from the install manager.  Did we need to tell it to check for newer files or will it do that automatically.  Is there a way to tell which version of the files it is using?

Shane, don't you think that after 13 years of botched figures there is a pattern emerging ? The folks at SM can't model or rig for sht. Sorry. And they are too stingy to hire professional talent. Sorry. They throw stuff out in the hopes that "the community" will fix it. Which actually worked somehow in the past, but mostly because the average Poser hobbyist can't spot professional work even if it bites him in the a*. But DAZ went serious a couple af years ago, sinking a lot of money into figure development, and now the lack of quality of Poser content becomes obvious even to the most ignorant Poser users. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against "hobbyist" content, not even in the marketpkace. (Although a lot of the stuff sold really keeps me wondering what the modeller and especially his customers were thinking) But when it comes to figures, I don't give an inch. These are the main tools of the program, and without proper, anatomical "correct" humans, we could just as well all stayed with Poser 4 and Posette. Or stay with V4 and a few "fixes" forever. As for professional modellers, who in his right mind would want to work for Poser, given the profit margins you can achieve here ? Unless he is paid in advance ? If someone is willing to pay for a truly professionaly made "exclusive Poser" mesh, I'm all for it. But you still need all the mapping, the textures, the morphs and the clothing getting made and the testing and the marketing. This takes $$$ and can't be done by a group of bright eyed volunteers. Simply not worth the effort given how big we (Everyone of us, including SM) let DAZ' monopoly grow. Sorry, SM was asleep behind the wheel and they've got a rude awakening. So, yes, I'm all for SM "selling out" to DAZ. It would immediately re-unite the communities and give merchants the ability to cater to both systems again without having to make compromises. I think that would be the best for the Poser community in the long run. We basically "licensed" DAZ meshes for Poser since the time Vicky 1 was released. We might as well finally be honest to ourselves and make the deal official. BTW, for quite some time Poser had both its "native" Poser 4 renderer as well the "licensed" Firefly renderer working side by side. So, adding the ability to fully host "triax" rigged figures in .duf format doesnt mean all natively rigged figures in .cr2 format will stop working.

"Did we need to tell it to check for newer files or will it do that automatically. Is there a way to tell which version of the files it is using?" I don't use the install manager so I couldn't say if it auto-updates. But my version of the DSON importer is 1.1.1.33, (Look under "Importer Preferences") The Genesis files should have a version number somewhere, too, but you rather might ask some expert over at DAZ. I just wanted to say that at least on my run of the mill laptop, Genesis works fine in Poser. :-)

Joe might be right.  Only time will tell.  The thing I'm most interested in seeing SM pirate from Daz would be HD morphs more than genesis.  

As much as I do love to try to learn about figures and what makes them good or bad, the biggest thing from posers core userbase is re-usability of content.  Perhaps the poser team will focus on teh software side of making clothing more universal and drive to refine that side of things to the point that which specific figure you use becomes about as significant as which v4 morph you use is currently.  (I remember fitting clothing to a specific morph of v3 or v4 was the biggest headache I encountered with regards to content.. today its almost trivial)

In the end it boils down to a simple question: What do we all want Poser to be ? Do we want it to be just a "fun" place for hobbyists, our cosy little home disconnected from the rest of the CG-universe ? Even if that means a slow fade into obscurity because new users have much higher standards than we had when we used Poser for the first time ? Or do we try to keep up with the Joneses, try to stay relevant in a world of photorealistic game meshes. Should we attempt to finally tackle the uncanny valley even if it means that things get more complicated and uncomfortable ?

Well, if SM is too "stingy" as you say, to hire professional talent, then I don't see them paying DAZ to license Genesis, as that would definitely cost them considerably more than it would to pay for professional modelers. If not up front, then in the long run as they'd have to continually pay for a new license every time Genesis' mesh is changed.  

If SM doesn't want to invest in better figures, then they'll suffer for it in time. So far I don't see how they can be suffering too badly since they're continuing to update and expand its features. That costs money too. If they weren't still selling, then I doubt they'd be putting in the same efforts to expand the software as consistently as they have been. And in fairness, SM has done a better job at updating and investing in Poser than most of its previous parent companies have. None of us knows what they're working on next.

 

~Shane

Someone will correct me if I'm misinformed, but as far as I understand wanted DAZ to GIVE Genesis and its triax tech to SM. Free. No license charged. The only compensation would have been the constant stream of money Poser users spending for Genesis stuff over at DAZ. But part of the reason for my "rants" is the fact that there is quite a bit of disinformation floating around about Genesis. I'd just like people to make an informed decision. :-) Anyway, I don't want to go on anyone's nerves, so I'll go back to weightmapping older figures and hacking Genesis. I'm just concerned about Poser's future after two years of this state of limbo we are in. I just don't think we can (or should) go on like this much longer.

I don't know. It was my understanding that DAZ was trying to license the tech to SM, as well as other much bigger brands like Autodesk, etc, and various game engines, in an attempt to generate more sources of revenue and open it up to the more professional studios. 

It's also my understanding that those other brands wanted nothing to do with it. I have yet to see any evidence of it being used in any game engines or anything from Autodesk, or any other software for that matter, outside of DS. But who knows. 

 

~Shane

Quote - Well, if SM is too "stingy" as you say, to hire professional talent, then I don't see them paying DAZ to license Genesis, as that would definitely cost them considerably more than it would to pay for professional modelers. If not up front, then in the long run as they'd have to continually pay for a new license every time Genesis' mesh is changed.  

If SM doesn't want to invest in better figures, then they'll suffer for it in time. So far I don't see how they can be suffering too badly since they're continuing to update and expand its features. That costs money too. If they weren't still selling, then I doubt they'd be putting in the same efforts to expand the software as consistently as they have been. And in fairness, SM has done a better job at updating and investing in Poser than most of its previous parent companies have. None of us knows what they're working on next.

 

~Shane

AmbientShade you are right about SM doing a better job at updating Poser than previous parent companies. I have to thank SM for that. It's an amazing program and they've given those working on it the chance to make it excel beyond all my previous expectations. It really is an amazing software. =)

Daz as a company is very successful and all the vendors I know report that their stable diet come from Daz sales. They are also on the verge of branching out to lot of new markets. These fanatic knights of lost causes will persist with their quixotic dreams in absurdum until the Poser ship finally sink. I wonder if by any chance they are related to hobbits? According to Tolkien they also could discuss bagatelles on the brink of disaster such as their grandfathers pipe while the world fall apart around them.

 

Good grief ,  just how many more times must we hear that Poser is doomed.  It was being predicted when I upgraded to Poser 2012 and was still going when I upgraded to 2014.  The only really major change have have done in that time is stop shopping at Daz.

Talk of flogging a dead horse, most Poser users do not read or write to forums.  Most Poser users use Poser because they like the program not because they hate Daz as a company.  To my mind SM has done a great deal to improve Poser and at a reasonable price. 

Twenty years down the road, or thirty, or forty Poser will fail. at that point all the doom sayers can then sing a chorus of 'We told you so', until then give it a rest, you are convincing nobody of anything other than a bias to Daz.

Okay, guys. Seriously. Can we please stop with the dogging of programs? We're all entitled to our own opinions, and we get to use the programs we want to use. 

Some of this thread has actually been educational. It's really a shame the old acid argument has been spat on it. THIS is why we can't have nice things, guys. This right here. 

That is not the case- it is to say something positive about Daz that is forbidden. Along with the whole time, directly or indirectly Daz, both company and software is bashed. This has been the policy for a loong time and is responsible for the state of things. If it weren't for the antiDaz maffia Renderosity would have a larger sale. Until they realize that things wont change.

 

I love Poser and its figures. To me, they re rigged fine and I have no problems posing them or using them in renders and other various scenes.

I'm not that impressed wih the Genesis figures.

As far as figure development from SM goes, Teyon has posted in another thread that Rex and Roxie v1.1 are due, and they hope to get the update out this side of Xmas.

‘HD’ tech is nothing new. Essentially that’s just taking a subdivided mesh and sculpting finer detail onto it. With (I think) SR2.2 Poser added the ability to export the subD mesh via a Python command, hence face_off’s Poser to Octane plug-in can now send a finer mesh to Octane (which has no subD itself) for figures, and he’s working on doing the same for props too.

In my opinion, the most exciting thing added to Poser recently is OSD (Pixar’s OpenSubDiv). Here’s an article for those interested - http://www.fxguide.com/featured/pixars-opensubdiv-v2-a-detailed-look/

 Adding the ability to select edges and apply weighting values is something I would dearly love to see in a future Poser version as it would provide huge benefits to both modellers and end users.

The other thing I’m wishing for? If the subD surface could be edited directly in Poser with the Morph brush, or by creating and importing morphs from an external app for a given subD level, then that would open up a new way of working with figures. I can see there would be problems to solve - there would a lot more data to process - but the potential gains from having multi-resolution figures would be huge. It would also make some of the discussion around different figures’ flaws irrelevant.

Quote - ...They are also on the verge of branching out to lot of new markets....

This might sound kind of strange, but would that be the market they talked about a few years ago and now is being developed by another company???

Daz talked about integration into all 3D, and the tools to make things cross compatable. It all sounded great in theory and they even posted some screen shots of work in progress with Unity and Autodesk.... Then silence....

No idea what happened to that, but since Houdini Engine will now do everything they wanted to accomplish and far more, without Genesis, I would have to assume that no one else in the 3D community cared either. Accept for Poser and Studio users, which is ironic.

Well, technically Side Effects must have cared, they wrote the Houdini Engine that took Daz's thunder...

From what I have read most 3D companies consider Genesis System to be a really neat idea, because it is novel and a new approach. At the same time it is flawed because of the wireframe and rights limitation. If you want to look at the whole picture, Genesis System is just as flawed as any other character when it comes to making changes to the wireframe that are not apart of the Genesis code base.

Does Genesis in Studio work well??? Yes it actually does contrary to what some people might say.

Does it work in Poser? To a point, yes it does.

Is it flawed? Of course it is. With all the opinions around here, nothing will ever be good enough.

While we are talking about character flaws, maybe we should discuss the flaws with some of the characters posting here. Because from this side of the screen there appear to be a few flaws.

That would fit right on topic......... It would also be interesting to see how anyone could blame those flaws on SM or Daz...

lol........... (sarcasm intended)

Point taken. I know that I'm not perfect but when I am humble I will be perfect!

So, how much are you willing to pay for the privilege? I suggest a tax for those who want to keep the Poser forum a Daz free zon. After all Daz content is Renderosity's merchandise! Their patience with people who bash their wares entitles them to some compensation IMO.