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OMG...That's for real??? UNBELIEVABLE!!!! I can't get over that! What company in their right mind would do something like that?? arrggh!!! I am in such shock, I just can't get over it...unreal...I scrambled to get Poser 4 before it changed to Curious Labs from MetaCreations, and busted my rear end and made long distance phone calls to get it...sigh I need to go lay down now...

Well, I do applaude their effort to upgrade the users of promotional version of Poser3, and I understand the desire to get paid something for all the stolen copies out there but I think this is going to go over like a lead ballon.

It's not often I get a front row seat to watch a company shoot itself in the head. Popcorn and beer anyone? I can send Guido to the Tavern for refills. ;]

LOL If you're taking orders, Ironbear, I'll take a Guiness Dark and some popcorn with extra butter. :o) Hehehe Thanks! ;o)

This is pretty amazing, I've never heard (or even imagined) of any deal like this one. And to think I ordered all four Posers sight unseen the minute each was announced... Darn you Corel, why didn't you buy this program too? ;) SnowS Hoping his pictures are worth 1001 words.

One thing they don't get is that most people who do warez don't give a damn about being in the fold, or having tech support, or being legitimate. So the little kitties go on their merry way, and the legitimate poser community is given the message that the reason they have to pay so muc is so they can offer crackers a discount. (Thank you for your support.) Well, I remembered the little banner at the top of this page (look up... yeah, that one.... the one saying help us fight crime bla bla) and wrote a letter to CL legal airing my views.

I bet those Warez sites are using a lot of bandwidth. And to think I saved for two months to get my copy. Hummmmmm Na! Guess im just a sucker. Im one of them fools that think by buying my stuff legal I am supporting programmers so they can stay in business. LOL

Well, like someone stated in the referenced thread, I am speechless... almost. I guess crime does pay. Thank you CL for betraying those of us who saved for a legal copy, who paid full price (TWICE for me -- One for me and one for my son. Yea, I was truly an idiot!) and who constantly tried to do what we could to keep the pressure on the bandits. I got kicked in the nuts once by DAZ when I turned them onto a pirate. I made another mistake when I told them the same guy was at it again. Now you folks follow with a knee to the chin. Well, I HAVE learned my lesson. Thank you, thank you very much. You can take that "request" for help from legal@curiouslabs.com off the top of the page for all I care. It will be a cold day in Hell before a tip ever comes from me. You sold us out, guys, big time. You sold us out. And I cannot help but feel completely, totally betrayed. casamerica

Let's hope that this is because Curius Labs have started to consider Poser 4 an outdated version. One of the kind that you give away in computer magazines ;). Maybe version 5 is on it's way. However, it sucks anyway as I just bought a used version and I did pay $200. I could not afford to buy a new copy as the price in Europe is silly expensive compared to the US. Poser and Pro pack costs around $700 here. I suggested that they made the apps availible for download purchase but they said Poser was to large (pro pack download is availible but for US only). But they could have cut the app and the models into separate downloads. You pay and download the app and then you could download the models one by one as you need them. This could cut the European price with 30%-40% (making it level with US prices). To get it for a fair price here in Europe could probably have some effect on piracy.

Wow. To think that I paid for my copy at full price but could have gotten a 50% discount if I had simply stole it and waited for this offer to pay! Sounds like CL is running out of money maybe, why else would they betray one of the most supportive software communities? I think it's only fair if they are offering theifs a discount, that they refund the difference to those who paid for the program and have supported the company and their anti-pirating efforts. God, talk about a stab in the back! -Zero

calls in orders on cell phone. Shortly after, pickup truck full of kegs, coolers, and boxes of foodlike things pulls up and Guido and Terry begin setting up buffet tables. Help yourselves, nightmyst, everyone. If you don't see it... I'll call back and order it. Meanwhile... I'm just gonna pop the cap on a Grizzly and kick back and watch for a while - don't mind me, ahm jest chillin. ;]

Wow. That's kind of shocking. Does kind of suck to us that paid for the damn thing. But, it's CL's decision. They may make some money.. and if they make some money maybe they'll be able to afford to make P5 not cost so much to the rest of us. Let's hope anyway. Anz

Actually, it sounds like a pretty sound decision for CL to me. There are a lot of users who "got into poser thru the back door". Maybe started playing with a copy Cousin so-and-so brought over & installed on a weekend visit & "forgot" to de-install after. Or "had this friend who"... etc, etc, etc. Probably hundreds, even thousands who picked up a copy of Computer Arts for the free Poser 3, & then weren't eligable for the Upgrade offer in the Magazine due to location, or got the back issue after it expired. There may even be well-known members of our community here who started on a more casual note. Not all of these folk would go the same route again if they knew then what they know now. By making this offer, CL stands to gain in several ways. They get the money for the upgrades from folk who want to do it right. They increase their registered customer base, which means that many more potential upgrade customers when they unveil Poser 5, and they'll (one would hope) score some goodwill points with the folk who benefit from the amnesty. Don't forget, without something like this, a lot of folk would only have 2 paths to get P5, either full price, or more revenue lost when they seek out warez copies after it's release. Don't get me wrong, I've actually bought Poser 6 times; once each direct order from the firm for each version from 1 thru 4. Then a "spare" copy that came with a 3D suite Metacreations packaged with 3 or 4 3D products a couple-3 years ago. and another I bought as a present for a talented friend who I was (justifiably, as it turns out) certain would do wonderful & creative things with it, & couldn't get it in the part of the world he was in. The only benefit for me in this offer is the same benefit all of us will get. This means more revenue for CL, which means a better foundation for the company, with means more & better wonderful things coming our way from CL. As a longtime member of a software professionals association ('though I haven't really had the time to code an app. in 8 years). I'm adamantly against warez & all illegal software. But I have to bear in mind that as the owner of Poser, CL has the right to try & convert the illegal users to legitimate ones by any means they choose. And all things considered, I like this method better than other methods I've seen, like Forced-registration-or-it-stops-working, or registering to get a software key to enable functions, or hardware dongles, or (insert your own most despised software protection method here). Anyway, I read this as a strong clue that P5 may be forthcoming pretty soon. Something to consider.

leather-guy, You got my vote; probably won't be the most popular stance tonight, but you're dialed into how we're approaching this. Kupa

I agree leather-guy. Nicely said.

Got in through the backdoor? Casual note? Get real. MY bottom line is that I paid full price, and now anyone who stole the damn thing gets off with a bargain, while I get told that I'm contributing to the greater good. Horseshit. Any company that uses unethical approaches like this because their bottom line is in trouble can fail, for all of me. What great benefit is this that is supposed to come about for legitimate users? Justification doesn't cut it on this one, not for me and not for alot of others- many who may not post here, but won't buy Poser 5. "They increase their registered customer base..." At what cost?

raised eyebrow, smirk

What is a full price? I USA you can get Bryce for 79 dollars and Poser for 119 if you have a studentcard. Well, I have, but I live abroad and it is not valid for abroad. CL sells Poser to my country for 350 dollars (not including shipping which is 70 dollars), over this we must pay 17 % tax at our local postoffice. Many people abroad now can get software at a price that Americans enjoyed it when it came to the market.

Depends... off the shelf at Fry's averages $249.99 I paid $279.99 for poser 2 when it first came out. I bought my copy of Poser 4.01 at Half-Price books [used, with CD & manual etc... ] for $149 last year sometime. August? That's straight retail - without student copy discounts. Student prices are better as you pointed out.

Thanks, Ironbear! ;o) Pops the top on her Guiness and pours it into a glass stein And Zero, I would love to be able to get a $100 refund from CL, but I highly doubt that will happen. :o( They'll give their reasons for doing what they're doing and that will be the end of it. Hopefully HellBorn is right, and P5 will be out soon. Perhaps at a lower price for an upgrade than usual? Wishful thinking, I know And Leather-Guy, you are most certainly correct; many people I know had started out in at least one of the ways you described, it is true--but for me, that thought doesn't take any of the shock out of my system! LOL But my thing is this: For the people in the Warez communities, the pirated Full proggie downloads for P4 are available with the 4.0.3 patch already---and they make cracks for the pro pak that hides serial numbers, and as soon as P5 comes out--the same will be done for that. We all know it will, come on. But my question is, if any of those who use pirated software are smart enough to not get found out by anyone, then why would they pay for it when they have it for free?? CL is NOT the only victim of pirating in any way. If these people are ballsy enough to download the illegal copies in the first place, why wouldn't they be ballsy enough to keep the illegal copy if they aren't found out? I'd be interested in a press release of the number of people they get to pay for legal copies at the end of the "offer period." Also, I have a question if anyone could give me an answer: How does CL find out about illegal copies other than people tipping them off and the sniffers in the upgrades? I mean, CL has to keep records of all those who purchase from them, I suppose, right? I was just curious (no pun intended ;o) ) as to how this became so big for CL in the past few months. Thanks!

Pls simmer down, everybody, and try to be cynical ;o) This seems to me to be what the germans call "realpolitik", or politics/policy in the real world. Warez are a fact of life, and you can't stop people from being tempted. Never mind the morality of it, those are the facts. But I try to be selfish in an enlightened way. As a legit user of P3-4-PPP I got the full version, including doc and support, just a bit before the warez gang did. I didn't have to "reconstruct" the manual by asking RTFM questions on the forums - I could dive straight in and have fun. When PPP came out, I was exasperated by Curious having to spend so much time and effort to hunt down warez instead of working on Anthony's CR2 documentation and on P5. Necessary for CL to stay in business, they said, and I can believe it! With this strategic move, I might be morally pissed, but now I can hope that Curious might be able to concentrate more on Poser and less on pirates - AND that this does indeed herald the more-or-less imminent arrival of P5, which I'll buy on the spot, like a lot of other people, pissed or not ;o) So, selfishly speaking : CL, go ahead!

Curious Labs... Nosey Retreivers? Oh well, I paid, I had a clear conscious. Tho, I've had more tech support on this forum than from either MC or CL, as far as being a registered user goes. So what is that worth? P4 is old, probably not selling many new copies. CL is a bizness, so why not try to wring P4 a little drier? If P5 is COMING SOON then maybe CL will offer a much better upgrade price to users registered before the amnesty date than for a new full price copy. That would be polite and good biz. Amnesty for pirates...? Foregiveness is divine...

So if I want to buy Poser 4 its like $249 now.
But if I have stolen a copy then I can get it for $129.
So If I just say I stole a copy (but I really didn?t) would I get the same discount or would I have to prove I had stolen it?

This seems awfully weird. Why not give everyone a chance to buy it at the discount and not just thieves.

I would think that people with stolen copies wouldn?t give two cents for a registered copy. True there is that upgrade path but if they stole Poser 4 they will steal Poser 5.

Caligari did the same thing with truespace, and while there was no messages from folks admiting to using pirate versions (that i saw), there was a huge amount of folks getting dodgy serial numbers so they could get a cheap copy of true space...so while this may seem a little wierd look at it another way, it'll increase the amount of users and maybe persuade a few software snobs to try it out and help push poser a little higher up the respecatabilty ladder near the level it deserves...just a thought.......Steve

It's not so much what CL are doing but the way they've gone about it. The community is accessible, it would have been so easy to write to us all telling us of their plans. Give us a chance to get used to the idea and shout off a bit first then say, 'well, we've consulted with our valued customers, and this is what we're going to do'. Simple good customer relations or good manners. I admit to being furious when a similar thing happened with Avatar Lab, but, here I am supporting it with my animations in the freestuff section.

This really costs me some time to think about it ...: There are several explanations for that (in my mind): Maybe CL needs money (and maybe urgent) maybe Poser5 is on its way ... who knows ?? Perhaps all of you who are crying out loud here should ask yourself some questions: Do you want a Poser 5 ?? You all know Software Companies need to earn money - the more money they earn the more ressources they can put in and the more ressources they are willing to put in. You want a bigger community ?? People doing warez are hiding (normally) in this community - I would do the same - It is better not to get to much attention if you are a theft - if you're no longer a theft you might can be more active. What is Poser ?? Is Poser really only the 250 or more bucks you once paid ? Haven't you all find friends here and aren't you all making stuff and (some of you) giving it away with a open heart (or selling it for a really reasonable price) ? Why not giving CL the same opportunity to show some heart. All of you who are dooming all this warez-kiddis - Wasn't there a time you were not able to buy a programm because you simply hadn't the money for it ?? --------------------------------------------- Yes, I know it's hard to know that you might have spend to much money in buying a programm - but may see it as your Hardware - the day you bought it you've lost money. If the memory falls a week later to the half you're also complaining - but also there you can't make this backwards. See it as it is - this action will get more people in-touch with Poser and this community -> and this would help us all - the users and the vendors as well as CL (fullstop) Schlabber

Hmm, seems as though CL have listened because the page is now unavailable. Kupa, please think before you act, when Poser 5 does finally appear don't let us buy it and then reduce the price a week later.

Ah, geesh. I really cannot believe this. Maybe they'll make the upgrade cheaper for all of us? Maybe Poser 5 is about to come out? Maybe people who got it through the backdoor will now go legit? Yea, right, and pigs may fly, but I doubt it. Think about the precedence this is setting, poeple! Honest user? Pay full price. Thief? Use your pirated copy for as long as you like and then, if your microscopic conscience really starts to bother you, wait for the "50% Off Midnite Madness Sale for Criminals" and then pitch in. Cheaper upgrade? Okay, maybe your addition is different here on Earth, but if I add what I paid for my Poser 4 to whatever the upgrade price is for Poser 5 it is still coming out more than a bit higher than the price the pirate paid for HIS Poser 4 + Poser 5 upgrade. I wonder... Maybe instead of prosecuting shoplifters we should just tell them, "Hey, pay 50% of the ticketed price and we'll let you go." I'll suggest that to my wife's employer and see how long his face stays red from laughing so hard. The only consolation I am getting out of this is the knowledge from years of fighting and working against crackers, hackers and pirates is that the crackers and pirates will laugh their asses off at CL when this hits the underground. And I now have another "real world" example to take to clients of how NOT to deal with criminals... at least if you want your honest customers to feel like you respect them and if you want them to continue to respect you. Well, from this episode, IMHO... CL doesn't and neither do I any longer. Say whatever you like, cheese up to CL all you want, flame me all the way to Hell. I don't care. CL just made crime pay and I have no respect for anyone that does that. casamerica

Ok... pops top on new beer I'm seeing a whole lot of stuff in the line of "piracy won't go away, so what's wrong with amnesty?" Simple. Yeppers. Piracy of software ain't gonna go away. It's a current fact of life for software companies. There's two things a company does about it: 1) You make it too damned expensive to indulge in piracy, 2) or if for whatever reasons you don't care to or won't or can't do that... Then you accept it as a fact of lif and call it a business expense. Pure and simple. Sucks, but there it is. And it IS a business expense. You don't placate terrorists, you don't beg a mugger not to steal from you, you don't reward criminals with buy backs and half price offers. It don't work and it never has. I'm not going to bandy words or play with euphemisms like "warez kittie" or any of that crap. I'm just going to shoot straight out on it: it's theft, as Schlabber said. And a software pirate is a fucking thief. If you do it, you come up with whatever justifications or excuses you want to, but it's just that simple. A thief steals because it's easier than being honest. A coward steals and hides behind political rhetoric and all the other BS that kitties feed themselves because it's easier than just admitting "Hey - I steal because I believe that it's my right and I'm prepared to deal with the consequences". Got news for Kupa. What's wrong with amnesty is that you're rewarding theft, and you're slapping your customer base across the chops. And your legit customers are going to remember it. This isn't going to turn a single goddamned software pirate honest. All you're doing is rewarding theives by giving out legit copies. When Poser 5 comes out, any who might have taken advantage of this offer aren't going to suddenly become legit Poser 5 upgraders - they're going to steal it too. Someone who will steal a $5.00 poser model from a vendor and put it up for trade on a warez board, is NOT going to shell out $149.00 + for an upgrade copy of Poser 5. They steal it because that's what theives do, and they'll steal it because they think it's cute to put one over on all of the suckers out there buying their software full price. Think I'm wrong? Ask one of the warez kitties that's a member of this forum. Pick one - any one. ;]

Heh heh. Cas and I just cross posted damn near the same thing. We do have a habit of doing that on somethings, don't we Cas? ;]

Maybe the way it's phrased makes it look like a reward for criminals, but in effect it's not much different from the way that software houses often put out old versions cheaply or free. You can pick up any number of computer magazines with cover discs with free versions of old programs with a cheap upgrade to the new one. (Here's v3 free, upgrade to v4 for only $50, RRP $150!) Anyone who paid $150 for v4 might kick themselves and say "hey! I could have paid only $50 too!". But if you buy early you accept the risk that the price will go down. What CL are doing is just the same, except they are admitting that the free version to be upgraded might not have been acquired from the news stand.

Unfair! Unfair! Unfair! This discriminates against Mac users who can't find warezed copies! (Joke, people.) We have to remember the difference between 'unethical' and 'disappointing.' Both make you feel sad/mad, but that doesn't make them the same. I could whinge about having $129 of my paid price 'stolen' by Steve Cooper, OR... I could look at the incredible amount of satisfaction, community, and name recognition I've gotten in the last 18 months. Steve/CL couldn't take that away from us if he wanted to. And people, remember that the retail price was $300. I feel more bummed by DAZ selling the Mike and Vicky figure/tex/clothing pak CDs at deep discount after I paid a reasonably larger sum of money. But I have to remember that it makes me disappointed, but NO. ACTUAL. SKIN. OFF. MY. ASS. This thread is disturbingly like the 1980s trend of equating offensive with wrong, which got played to full effect by both ends of the political spectrum: conservative in Congress and liberal in academia. In America, this asinine attitude gave us... what? What we got for that was Tipper Gore begging the American government to step in and clean up rock&roll lyrics, and students insisting that several fairly mediocre books written by flash-in-the-pan authors be added to canon. I digress, but not by much. Assassinating Steve/CL's character won't do anything except make him reconsider the work he puts into keeping our favorite software a viable product. Whether this amnesty program is wise or not, I won't say. But I will say that realistically, it hasn't damaged me. Recent purchasers, OTOH, are entitled to gripe. Anton Kisiel was smart enough to pull all of his products he was in the process of improving because he knew someone who yesterday bought the 1.0 release of his Stupendous, Mega-Morphing, Bread-Slicing Hair would be royally cheesed to see the 2.0 release the next day. I would consider this: Voluptuous Vicky's 2.0 upgrade was nada. The commercial word processor on my PDA gave me a major upgrade for free when it came out. Both of these are praiseworthy recognitions of users as investors. OTOH when another PalmOS commercial vendor turned around and put their commercial product in the public domain because they found another cash stream, we felt screwed. That particular company has made some other unwise decisions about how to extract money from customers (imagine a freestuff section that required a registration fee for UPloaders).

This is not the first time that a company tried this idea - I remember that both Canvas and RagTime for Macintosh got a similar offer in the early '90s. For a limited time, you were able to get a legal full copy "in exchange for your pirate copy" for a modest price. I spoke to an authorized Apple dealer at that time and asked him if I really need to get a pirate copy first and he told me OF COURSE NOT... :-) Come on everybody - this offer is simply a special bargain offer coupled with a strong demonstration. It's something that makes people think about the problems of warez, and it is a positive chance to win some people back. If you have just bought Poser for a higher price, you are unlucky - but this happens all day long with everything. You buy a video recorder now, and next week it's $50 cheaper. That's life. This recent campaign is a very positive and contructive attempt.

A couple of years ago the Government here in Ireland did something similar with Taxes. They declared a limited-time penalty-free Tax Amnesty for those evading taxes.

Now that got most of the population really pissed off. Most of us were P.A.Y.E. (Pay as you earn taxpayers) who had their taxes deducted at source from their paycheques. The only people who were able to evade tax were self-employed business people and professionals who were already earning far more than the average compliant tax payer and here they were now being able to legitimise (without penalty) their ill-gotten gains.

It worked and many evaders were brought into the tax net permanently freeing up revenue investigators to tackle those still evading. The country benefited enormously as huge amounts of capital flowed back into Ireland from offshore accounts. (It was not just the unpaid tax revenue but the now legitimate capital could be invested in Ireland) This helped to kick-start the Celtic Tiger Economy, which has given Ireland the highest growth rates over the last decade in the developed world and we are all better off.

Now CL ain't the Government but I think I understand and sympathise with where they are coming from. However, I think there would be far less flack flying if they had said that this was a new lower price for ALL (including warez users) as a promotion prior to the introduction of Poser 5.
Perhaps CL might consider extending the offer and advertise it Computer Arts etc. I think they would have a far greater uptake and far less acrimony if they did this.

In the meantime pass the popcorn Ironbear!

Legitimate-Poser-User (first copy sold in Ireland) ;0)
STORM

Ahhhahaha, man this is just... horrible. Next bad step for me is if Corel did this with bryce. well, at least then I know all my target practice will pay off.

Maybe it's all just a lie?

Have you seen how law enforcement occasionally sends mail to all their 'wanted' criminals, telling them that they've won a speedboat, or some other luxury item?

When the people show up to claim their prize, they're put in handcuffs and taken away.

I really doubt that CL is doing that, I think they're just looking for an additional revenue boost.

Whatever 'strategery' is behind this, or whatever spin is put on it, it is a very foolish move. Thieves will still steal and they have spit in the face of their loyal, honest user base.

Hell, I only paid $117 for P4 on an Ebay auction when it first came out. That guy was kicking himself in the ass after that. After I got it, he started the bids at $117!

It's not about money; it's about self-respect. Unfortunately, money seems to count for more. Still, I'm happy and proud to support Curious Labs and Daz3d by paying for their wares. But that's me. Mike

storm, good head on your shoulders. seen this before from other software companies. it works. they bring folks on the margin into the fold and make some cash to boot. welcome site, i respect your posts but one comment- loyal users? here? only if they give you exactly what YOU want and nothing else. to no one specific, this is the pickiest, whiniest, bitchiest, little bunch of pig piling bandwagoneering ijiots i've run across. some exceptions here and there of course. you'll all run to the next release. everything they share here about poser5 sounds friggin amazing. mm

meta_mannix, we can track user clones here. Especially when new ones like you show up. Interesting comments from someone of your standing. Russell

Well, I paid for Poser 4 and the PPP. I paid even more to get an english copy of Poser 4 and PPP, since the german copy gets its updates much much later and a lot of Poser-Characters won't work correctly with the german version of Poser (Since all the bodyparts and all the libraries have been renamed.). All in all, I paid about 700,- Dollars for my Poser (I can't remember what I really paid, but I guess thats about it.). You know what? I don't feel the slightest bit offended, cheated or anything else by this offer. No, I do think this is a great idea. No one here can really say if this will bring in warez-people, but I am pretty sure that some of those people who haven't got enough money to buy a full version legally, will try to get a legal copy now. Actually I find it offensive if people star whining now, that they have paid so much and now it becomes cheaper and warez-people will get to turn in their warez for a bargain-upgrade and so on. It seems that this whole community seems to be based on monetary issues by now. You should be grateful that more people get the chance to use a legal version of Poser instead of whining about your money. I do hope that this community will get a boost of new users with this offer. I just wish that CL would offer a kind of "language-upgrade" that would have allowed me to get an english copy of Poser for my german one. Could I turn in my german version of Poser for an english one? Joerg Weber

As a consultant in customer relationship management, I consider this an almost unbelievable attempt by a software company to totally destroy its credibility. This is the stuff that makes great case studies to use in CRM seminars... Thanks! I would just like to ask: (1) Which customers does CL consider most valuable ones: The ones they already have and that have paid for their software and that without doubt will pay for an upgrade too. Or the dishonest, potential customers that stole the software and that might, if they are honest (!) enough, consider paying for it if they get a hefty discount by proving that they are thiefs? (2) Why does a company that is supported by the strongest and most loyal community I have ever seen in the software business risk its reputatation by legalising criminal behaviour? The very same behaviour that the community in question strongly opposes against in forums like this one? (3) Why should I pay for the upgrade to Poser 5 if I can steal it? It is after all OK with CL to do so. Three very important questions to think about. The third one is simple, the other two requires some thinking from CL.

I think this a pretty gutsy move on Curious Labs part. I have to salute them on this attempt to curb the theft of their product. I've never heard of any software company trying this approach and I will be very interested in seeing how it works out for them. I remember when I found that a Daz's freebe I download was corrupted. It was a few weeks old and I hadn't checked it when I downloaded it (Dumb, I know). I really wanted the model but now it was no longer free. I sent an email to Daz and explained to them my problem and within a day they had set up a way for me to download the model again for free. That act has left a special place in my heart for Daz as a company. The reason I rambled on about the above is that this act of Curious Labs may have the same effect on many people using the software illegally. The next time they see something of CL's stuff available in a Warez site they may think 'No, they made a pretty big gesture, they're diffrent from the other companies, I'm not going to steal from them'. As far as the money I've spend to buy poser, I've already gotten enough hours of enjoyment out of the package that I'm still miles ahead of what I spent. Besides what ever losses they recoupe from this will help make Poser a better product which will be better for all of us. And as far as competition, the niche that Poser fills they pretty much created. I have been using Poser on and off since Poser 2 and before that a product called Human CAD. There just hasn't been a human design and now animation solution that I'm aware of, for the home user before Poser. I have 3D Studio MAX and character studio, they are pretty old version's but they're mine. I've never Upgraded them because of Poser. I just couldn't produce the stuff from scratch as good as the stuff in Poser. Poser provides instant gradification and it's fun to use despite some of the bugs. (This is my hobby so it has to FUN) Just my two cents or 1.36 cents US. 8) Thorgrim

When I got the 3D magazine that had a free copy of Poser 3, I tried to upgrade it. Couldn't... So I bought a legal, unopened copy of Poser 2 on e-bay, then upgraded to Poser 4 for $99. In the end I paid about the same as the $129 they are offering now. The big thing is, I have had a legal copy of Poser 4 for almost a year. Yes it is anoying to find something cheaper after you have paid hard earned cash for it. The hard drive I paid over $300 last year is now less than $100 (and is a bigger drive). Should I have waited to buy? No, I needed the drive a year ago. Should I have waited, using the free copy of Poser 3 and hoping "some day I can upgrade this", or should I have upgraded as soon as I could. I say that having it sooner is better. My guess is CL knows the serial number of the free magazine version and will let those people upgrade. The waraz serial numbers are also probabley known, and I bet none of those numbers will be eligiable to upgrade. Even if they are, so what? I have my copy and I'm happy. I plan on upgrading to Poser 5 the minute is is released. Just my 2 cents. Peggy

have you ever seen amnestied soldjers alive afterwards? they are just databasing those who has a stolen copy, and then later on they will be blackmailing them. no need to fuss about it.

In fact I have seen a lot of amnestied soldiers... And most of them are still alive. I don't really think CL would ever be so dumb as to try to blackmail anyone. Blackmailling, even if you are blackmailling a criminal, is a crime. On the other hand, CL could change some illegal users (or criminals) into legal users who pay for their product. I don't see how that can be wrong. Joerg

Ahhh the joys of running your own business in America. There's nothing more satisfying. I know you're reading this thread whith your head in your hands Steve. So I thought I'd jump in here and cheer you up a little :-) ScottA

"meta_mannix, we can track user clones here. Especially when new ones like you show up. Interesting comments from someone of your standing. Russell " Thanks Russ - that's all I needed. At first I wondered if this was a legetimate member I had to treat like he rated. cracks knuckles Since he's just a imaginary member, I can yank off the gloves. "this is the pickiest, whiniest, bitchiest, little bunch of pig piling bandwagoneering ijiots i've run across. some exceptions here and there of course. you'll all run to the next release. everything they share here about poser5 sounds friggin amazing. " Wow! Its a troll with a hotmail addy and a clone user_nick. Not like we've never seen THAT before in any forum. And this one types just like a warez kittie complete with attitudes, no caps and lack of 3 active brain cells. ;] Gee, meta_mannix, who are you behind the pseudo nick? Old member too gutless to stand behind his real nick? Or a new troll just out to join in the brawl? Either way... you're jumping in way out of your weight class, bubba. "i respect your posts but one comment- loyal users? here? only if they give you exactly what YOU want and nothing else. " Customer is always right. That ring any bells? You get loyalty by showing it. You get respect when you earn it. And when you hide behind a clone nick and give off a puling mouthful like you just shot out, you get mauled by one of the whiney, bitchy pig piling bandwagoneering ijiots. You feel like taking a peice of someone? Try me. Don't let the other people clearing ground zero make you nervous. ;]

insulting CL or legitimate/illegitimate users. I guess, what CL is about to do (if it is reallyhas an honest intention) is to make sure folks use a real copies of Poser. which is understandable since they(CL) have their families to feed.A noble wish, indeed. since if we have let's say 50.000 illegitimate users of poser and if only 500 of them decide to puchase, it comes to a substantial amount of money for CL to buy a motion capture equipment or a 3d laser scanning machine later to be incorporated into poser 5 . I am just giving the idea:)

pulls up deck chair, crate of cold beer, potato chips, basket of fried chicken and a bowl of peanuts* The peanut gallery is ready... :)