Just wondering here but who were the beta testers of poser5?? what hardware/OS configs did they use?? how many were VENDORS with premium retail spots in "content paradise"??? have any of them have come forward to defend poser5 against its detractors??? since Curious Labs has defacto admitted to knowingly and with premeditation , releasing an incomplete application than the beta testers had to have known of what CL was about to do but were bound by NDA's was any one here secretly warned by a beta tester"Dont buy yet"?? id be interested in hearing from a beta tester on what his/her experiences were with the app before its release

I'm not a beta tester, but I have a suspicion that the program was beta tested on exclusive invitation only for the high profile members of the forums who have achieved a sort of "celebrity" status among Poser users. This just adds more fuel to the fire, IMHO. Personally, I think there should have been a public call for beta testers and it really troubles me the whole way this latest version has been handled. So far, I haven't seen anyone admit that they beta tested it, so I also would like to know who really did. Melanie

i know a few of the testers, i won't mention there names but they know who they are. some of these "testers" were more concerned about getting their Names with CL, and hoping that their products will be compatiable with the New P5. for if they were really concerned about a product like P5, they would have reported the bugs and errors alot of folks are encontering, and work with CL on how to correct it, not worry about how their product would or should work on P5. Butt kissing a company, doesn't make a good product, just fills a ego. From the final paragraph in the interview, Mr. Cooper said "we had ideas thrown around that we figured were barely possible." Appropriate comment since now those items IN the program are BARELY POSSIBLE because of all the problems. I doubt Mr. Cooper would be very happy if he spent money on a motorcycle and it ran as poorly as this program. I think he would take it back and demand a properly working model. P5 is like the pet rock - everybody wants it, everybody has to have it. Until, they find out it doesn't speak, poop, pee or do anything. Then no one wants to play with it anymore.

I think CL did the right thing keeping the beta testers anonymous, how could they have got any testing done if they'd been known, would we have left them alone for more than 5 minutes without blasting them with questions. Being a celebrity isn't the same as being a good tester though, I'd hope they used some not so experienced people to test as well, best way to make something idiot proof is to get an idiot to test it. ;) Much as I'd like to hear from the testers I don't think naming them now would be a good idea, I can imagine all the flames that would be directed at them, it would be more like a feeding frenzy at the shark house, not a pretty sight. Rob

"Sir! Sir! we've found a beta tester may we burn them please"...

It doesn't take a genius to figure out some of the people who used P5 before its release and they may have been beta testers. However I cant blame them for any thing wrong. They very well may have made comments about problems which the company decided to overlook. Also may have worked fine on their system. I know I have beta and alpha tested products before and problems I reported were not fixed before release. I frankly have to applaud them for taking the time to test. I also do not think it proper to release their names for several reasons. This post for one. Ron

I don't think necessary to finger the beta testers as individuals for any problems that should have been found. My impression, even before the actual release, was that the beta testing program itslef was far too short and possibly far too limited to achieve results. I had the impression that the betas were probably out for a maximum of 3-4 weeks, and quite honestly, even with the best testers and best developers, that isn't enough time to find bugs, fix them rebuild and redestribute for retesting. Bill

If CL used only the "champions", they violated the Prime Directive of testing, which is to use as many novices as possible. People who understand graphics deeply, and have experience with a wide range of applications, simply will not run into most bugs, or will adjust to them so instantly that they won't even consider it a problem. If you want to find problems, you need to let relatively inexperienced people try the product; Murphy's Law will then come into play with a vengeance, which is exactly what you need when testing.

Beta testing can be a complicated art. Beta testers are often under appreciated and over blamed for problems in new software. The terms of the beta testing aren't known, so we don't know if specific testers were assigned specific areas for testing. Also last minute changes for problems found by the beta testers may not have ever been tested a second time. Of course, the larger the test base, and more supervised the testing is done has a lot to do with how well the final version is. There was a LOT to test in P5. Usually with a system this complex, a set of testing requirements is done in advance, with standardized forms for problem reporting, follow-up, retesting by both the same tester and a second tester for confirmation. Remote beta testing without constant contact has to be managed even more tightly. A good beta test for a system like this should take a minimum of 2 to 3 months to allow for fixes and retesting. I think CL was feeling a LOT of pressure from Poserland to come out with the product A.S.A.P. Not to mention the financial needs of a relativly small company. While I think the testing needed to be more thorough, I can't fault the testers with the problems in the product. CL did drop the ball on this one, but I think it the needs of their company required an early release. I'm VERY happy with P5, in spite of the bugs. The big things I wanted are all there, I'm handling the learning curve, and I'm pretty sure most of the bugs I've found will be fixed in the next few weeks (since most of them are simple coding errors probably made after the testers had found the main set of bugs). Things like Don's left shoulder and library lookup problems really aren't that bad, or tough to fix. I would be happier if there were a standard bug reporting system in place, with a status of the fix and estimated correction date at the CL website for that specific problem (as well as pulling in some of us to test individual fixes). CL's biggest problem, as well as their greatest asset is the Poserland community. We bang their software to death, tearing it apart to see how far we can stretch it. They should use us more, and in a more organized fashion. However, I do have a concern about the CL/Daz relationship. I know that Daz is making a Poser-like product for release someday, but right now they have the most detailed Poser figures, with the most 3rd party products available for Poser. Lets face it, without Michael and Victoria, Poser wouldn't be nearly as big as it is. CL and Daz should have worked harder together to make those 2 characters P5 fully compatable. I think its a real pity that Daz didn't have a Michael and Vicky V3 that was fully P5 compatable ready when P5 came out. Both companies would have profited greatly from that. There isn't even a free skull cap for the Millenium family available. So, don't blame the beta testers. They did the best job they could with the supervision and experience they had. Rant over. I may have been in programming too long. Maybe I'll go apply for ajob at Starbucks...

Good betatesters and good artists are often very different people. Qualities required to be a good betatester (meticolousness... precision... adaptation to boring and repetitive task.... methodical mind) are often not the qualities of artists (creativity... improvisation... illogical solutions). I think we shouldn't hit CL on this one. I don't know if it's true, that many people in the testing team were artists, but if they were, now CL sure has learned the lesson and next time, they'll choose more amongts the people in the forums here who displayed a more technical-methodical attitude.

Poser is a GREAT software with o without DAZ ... P4 male http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=54884 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=109479 P4 female http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=87369 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=44974 "Poser will be.. what you will be" Andygraph Andrea Mazzone Broadcast Graphic Designer

...but its better with Daz, and Curio, and rDNA, and PoserWorld, and 'sity, and 'rotica... Nice images though. You really worked the Dork and Posette to their best advantage.

with or without .. ;)

Violating a nondisclosure agreement is unethical and sets one up for punitive legal action. Beta testers are not obligated to inform the public of software glitches, they're obligated to log and inform their employers of glitches. If you have issues with CL proper, fine, but to me some of this sounds like just another misguided witch hunt. WAY too much of that "off with their heads" attitude going down in these forums. On the other hand, it's true that there are lots of "Poser celebrities" who have let the fact that they have "names" in the community go to their head. We see it right here in the forums. Still, if I were invited to work with CL, OF COURSE I'd be flattered and willing to help! Why not?

I was a beta tester for a few programs (not P5). One of the programs I tested took months and months before they released it. They recruited many people of all skill levels, some from R'osity. They,I think, may still be checking for bugs, months after it's release, to make sure that they've done all they can to make it the best it can be. I wish CL had been as dilligent. I did not run out and buy Poser5. I won't till I'm sure I'm not wasting my money.

Nice try Wolf. ;-)

You mean there were beta-testers for Poser 5? I thought that's what we were doing! Okay, joking aside, I wonder if CL got "real" beta-testers... instead of "fake" beta-testers who give feedback like "Looks great, I love it." (not very helpful). I also wonder how many testers clicked on something, had Poser crash, and then blame it on Windows, without reporting it as a bug? "Face room crashed again. Must be my version of Windows 98. It'll probably work fine with Windows 2000." "The body morphs don't work for Judy & Don. I'm sure that'll be fixed before they ship the final product." --John

Why don't you all just write to Curious Labs and ask them to post a link to the beta testers' forum? They could rush edit the thing to remove names the same way they rush edited Poser and rush it out for everyone so they can point fingers and scream at the wrong people. The people who screwed up Poser are the people who programmed and designed it. Not the poor schleps who tested it - well not all of them. Highly critical, efficient error reporting or bland sycophantic drooling. It shouldn't matter a damn to anyone here. The simple fact is that it was the decision of CL management to release unfinished software, it was the apparent inability of the programmers to get the thing together professionally at the speed expected of them with whatever was provided for them to do the job. This software has been three years in the making, of which... well, you guess at the ACTUAL time spent working on it. :) And no, I was not invited to be part of the beta team for various reasons. ;) Meanwhile stop looking for scapegoats. The real culprits for this are sitting pretty in their offices wandering how to rescue this unmitigated disaster.

Other than CuriousLabs themselves. Who was posting artwork and claiming how great P5 was before the program was shipped? ScottA

If you're talking about the guys at RDNA posting Poser5 Renders, that had nothing to do with getting their names in lights, they never even suggested doing it, someone who has nothing to do with the company apart from being a poser user or any interest in getting their name up in lights made the suggestion to CL that shortly before Poser5 was to be released they let the testers have some fun & post some renders. No money changed hands at all. Rob

"Nice try Wolf. ;-)" Im just wondering if maybe there needs to be major revision of the published PC hardware/OS specs. since some people seem to be having little or no problems. while others are having system wide problems since installing P5 make me wonder how diverse the hardware set up of the Beta testers were. Personally im very happy with my Propack4 and its character animation export to Cinema,and Lightwave where we already have cloth and hair built in as well as hardware acceleration ,real render engines, stability Blah Blah Blah........................... ;-) As a MAC user im hopeful that the relative LACK of diversity in the expensive highend MAC hardware setups will be as asset in the development of a Stable poser5 for the MAC especially for OSX users who dont own a high end app for their poser renders/animations.

"I'm not going to put out names most of us know who they are" That's what I thought. Does anyone think before they post here anymore? Or is everyone just here because the AOL chatrooms got boring? ScottA

I thought the AOL chatrooms were always boring anyway ;)

P4 loves me , this is know cause my computer tells me so. Conforming figures,and great Phython. Renders well when we are gone. Yes P4 loves me Yes P4 Loves me Yes P4 loves me My computer crashes no mo` ( this song was used with permission of Jesus Christ INC.)

"Look it up Dugh boy!! You do know how to surf don't you?" No...could you please show me how? I'm new to this site. ScottA

golden what is wrong with you? why are you so bloody stressed out that you have to attack everyone who even says hello to you? don't say it's all the fault of Poser5 & CL cause that's bull & you know it.

Thanks for the help golden. How do you get to the galleries? Where did you see that? ScottA

It's a piece of software not the end of the world, there are far more important things to worry about in the world than whether you wasted your pennies on poser5, get some perspective & calm down.

I did not beta test P5 .. I have not even seen P5 .. yes a couple of my images were in the manual .. but they were P4 images .. not P5 .. the reason I mention this is from a couple of not so nice e-mails I received there seems to be the idea floating around that folks that had some art in the manual were beta testers... not necessarily so. I for one would love P5 , and can not wait till I can afford it .. I have read the good , the bad , and the ugly posts about P5 and still it seems to me that there is a lot of content in P5 that I would find useful ..

"Kiss Poser and eat shit!" Huh? Is that your chatroom screen name? Mine is: "Rose Pedals". Maybe I'll see ya there some time. Later. ScottA

before you jump down my throat again, let me just say at least you have a copy of it to complain about it, mine is still on it's way even tho I ordered it a month ago, do you see me shouting & screaming about it, have I fired off countless emails to CL complaining about it or threatening to sue them? NO! I'm sitting waiting for it calmly, even at times joking about where the box has got to. If I find something wrong I'm not going to start shouting about it in the forum or demand my money back, I'll fill in the error reports & send them off to CL in the hopes that they can fix the problems if I find any. Instead of screaming & yelling why not try contacting CL to find out if there's a way round the problems you've said you had? no of course you won't it's more fun to slag off Cl than it is to get the problems fixed. what you're doing is called trolling by the way which seems to fit a lot of what's been going on here recently.

Who's winning....?

I'm not a beta-tester.....but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...... Scarab

I'm not fighting, just trying to reason with a troll ;) best to use a large lump of wood, only way to get through the thick skull.

i can read whats going on. and you know, its not right for other artist to attack each other with snide or ill remarks about each other. i know theres alot of angry folks out there, mainly because the Poser5 CL released seems to fail alot of systems.and thats really the main focus. alot of us would like answers from CL,not slurs and salty words that are being slung on these fine walls we call home.i know the forums are used to learn, and understand each other.not to sling crap at each other.i know the fustration of all the artist are going thru. they are ( and most of them are ) professionals.and they do expect certain kind of quailty from the products they buy. they expect it to work without flaws ( although sometimes that isn't the case)and when it has more than a few bugs in it ( too many at times), well we tend to freak out a bit, try to do things by the book, even if the book isn't always right. we come here for help, do we not? help is help, no matter where it comes from. one artists tip is another artist success. remember that:) now no more slinging of words towards other artist. Ok?

Hey guys, Chill out with the insults. Disagree all ya want, defend your opinions until you're blue in the face (or whatever color you prefer), but keep it civil. Thanks! Crescent

Ok kids - lets all play nice. Don't make me get out the fire hose. Lyrra

Actually, it feels like I am beta testing it now (and I was NOT a tester for CL, just an early upgrade). And if it was only in beta for a few weeks, I can see why. I'm testing another program, not 3D related but a game (and have been for a couple of months) and don't expect to see a release until late spring. Bugs are tricky. You step on one and ten more come to the funeral.

Yes, this thread was a troll post IMO. Next time I'm sending a warning. -Jeff

The subject line is your clue. Hannibal Lecter Beta-tested P5. Why do you think the proggie comes with models of detached hands and heads and fava beans? DAZ included a "red dragon" map in the MilDragon texture pack to let those nasty cannibals at CL know they weren't fooling anyone. P5 is clearly a stalker's love letter to Jodie Foster. Heaven help us all.

I've heard a lot here about the bugs and testing and all the chaos. I just have ONE question. Why are all the bugs that were in P4 - and about which people complained mightily well before P5 came along - STILL in P5? (according to what I hear in these fora - since it'll be some time, if ever, before I can justify buying P5). People were complaining about things like the non-functional/randomly-functional "undo" in P4 for a long time - and it appears absolutely nothing was done to change it - the same for a number of other items people have been complaining about for so long. Why are all those bugs still in there?

So rather than blame the company for shipping a flawed product, we're going to lynch beta testers now? Gimme a break.

"Yes, this thread was a troll post IMO. Next time I'm sending a warning. -Jeff" A warning for what??? as the person who started the thread I must protest your assement of my intentions. Im trying to understand how one identical peice of software can perform so badly on some peoples powerful hardware/OS and "run smoothly" on others. Im VERY Suspicious that many of these alleged "bugs" might be Due to the Disparate and broadly varying Low cost PC configurations that are running the new release I thought some of the beta tester might want to share their hardware/OS specs and the thread quickly descended into an exchange of insults between CL loyalist and former "california dreamers" who are outraged at being left in the california dessert By a company that Has publicly admitted to releasing a poorly contructed software package and letting the bodies hit the floor. And by the way PHILC has publicly admitted to being a beta tester for the original propack4 yet i dont see this fear of exposing him to the Ire of dissatisfied buyers of that package which was patched into a decent app with three service releases. and signing a N.D.A. means you will not discuss specific features of your beta software BEFORE its release, it does not put you in some lifelong witness protection program after its released so if you are going to warn someone warn the people who are violating the TOS with profanity etc not those of use who ask legitimate question about subject some people apparently consider hush hush.

This whole thread is crazy... mostly based on speculation by a couple individuals clearly out to do as much damage as possible to the reputations of others. now for my usual comedic retort... Looks like we got ourselves and old fashioned lynching... hey... what's this your dumping on me... sniff sniff... smells like oil, oh it's tar. PLUMPF... cough cough... can't see through all the feathers... why yes, that is a mighty fine noose you got there... kind of loose though... gack! now it fits just fine... why sure I'll stand on that little stool... kind of wobbly. Doug Sturk

"A warning for what???" There was no reason for this thread other than to stir and provoke IMO. The title says it all. Maybe it was a poor choice of words, but I doubt it.

The hell with this place. I'm going back to the AOL chatrooms where people are normal. ;-) Signed, Rose Pedals

Well it was a poser related thread in the poser forum about the beta testing of poser5 Did it contain Speculation in my part??.. yes But you seem less concerned that Some has told another member to "eat Shit" with no deletion or repurcussion for TOS violation and more concerned that i have broached a subject that you have subjectively decided is too "provocative". I guess we will have to "agree to disagree" like civil gentlemen. best to you Jeff :-)

No, we don't have to agree about anything, but there will be a warning next time. It could have been done in such a way as not to provoke. We are not here to grill the beta testers or anyone else.

yep, 13 rings, I'm impressed Cooler, most people don't know something that morbid. Do you have one in XXXXL?

Its dead wrong to go after beta testers. The state of Poser 5 is borne by us. We take responsibility for that. That's why we have a patch due out on the 30th of this month. And as needed, subsequent patches will be released.

There isn't a single beta tester responsible for the final state of Poser 5. They are all volunteers. Not "insiders". No special deals. They are skilled or professional users of Poser from this and other communities, they are artists that can push the features deeply, or just good solid communicators that can verbalize and document the sometimes twisty steps that allow us to re-produce a bug. They were logged on to our beta forum with their real names, and many met each other for the first time using those real world names, even though they had been communicating for years in the public forums under screen names.

A little detail about the beta process at Curious Labs-
We had over 80 independent testers working outside Curious Labs, contributing to bug threads, category by category on an internal testing forum hosted on our server. The beta testers sign non disclosure agreements (NDAs) which bind them before and after the test process. These NDAs restrict them from discussing the process and the beta versions of the application, during and after the testing process. The only reward that the testers receive is a copy of the shipping version of P5.

The job of testing is a challenging one at best. The application is in a rough state. There is very little final documentation; there isn't anyone to hold hands with the testers. They have to rely upon a lot of personal ingenuity to go through an application as deep as Poser 5. Some testers wrote up dozens of bugs. Others found one or two. I assure you, the testers did not specifically see or report the crash issues that have been chronicled here. If we had seen these, they would have been addressed prior to shipping. Many of the testers reading this know first hand how the beta crash bugs that they found were taken very seriously by our engineering and QA team. For the most part the beta testers were all looking for those killer bugs. Some testers found a lot during the beta. And thats how the bugs get fixed. Unfortunately, there is no a perfect system, and some bugs simply dont turn up until the product hits the real world of users.

The best thing we can do at this point is to take responsibility, and deliver timely fixes to the problems.