ok, i had thought about posting this before, but i was afraid of a flame fest. since the 3dbuzz thread seems to be going well, i thought i'd put this out there.   some months ago i was looking something up on some cg sites, and i came across blatant poser prejudice.  from the comments, it was pretty clear that the people posting hadn't looked at poser in an awfully long time. but that wasn't what struck me.

let me preface this by saying i do believe that making your own stuff means that it will have a more personal feel.  and while i think a lot of time and effort in high end apps goes to reinventing life in the same mold, standard pretty girl or bad boy portraits, and most of it is just as derivative if more skilled than your standard poser work, i do acknowledge that making your own stuff means you can implement your own ideas and your own styles more thoroughly than if you just combine pre-existing elements.  i think discussions about using premade or autogenerated content in any application is valid.  and i do think that since price of professional tools generally keeps them out of the hands of hobbiests, and poser is mostly used by hobbiests, the average skill and creativity of works in high end apps is greater than the average poser work as it should be.  professionals should, on average, out-perform hobbiests.  so i'm not trying to make a whole case about creativity and tools.

what struck me was that this was a pure quality issue.  the claim was that poser figures were so anatomically incorrect, and that the possible poses were so stiff, that it was a detriment to your work even as a reference tool.  and then they pointed to addy's gallery and said that, yeah occassionally she was able to acheive decent results but she was more successful some times than others.

so i went to look at the galleries of these vaunted artists that think addy's work is only passing ok, and i was kind of shocked to see pretty poor work.  one person had really stiff, mediocre painted work, another  just postworked photos in very boring ways.  i looked more in the galleries, and was seriously underwhelmed.  and what got me was that exactly the same qualities they criticized in poser work- stiffness, incorrect anatomy, etc. - applied strongly to their own. 

now, personally, i think there's much better posing on average here than at cgsociety (which is  _not _ the place i read these comments).  sounds crazy, huh?  but mostly, i see really bad poses there,  often very little expression, and lots of staring into the distance.  which makes sense because people who are spending time going crazy over the perfect material and texture, the perfect figure or scenery, and have to model every single piece, aren't ordinarily going to spend hours developing poses.   but i doubt that's how those professionals see it.

i think they look at high-end app  pinups and see perfection, look at poser pinups and see only errors.

what's your experience?  do poser faults get called out more than others?  is it impossible to break into any professional cg ranks at all using "poser" figures or content?  is the bias so strong, that no matter what quality the work, people only see the flaws?

no, poser is held to the lowest standard IMVHO. the assumption is that the typical poser user's image will have bad lighting, bad/no shadows, bad/no facial expressions, bad poses, bad/no backgrounds, bad joint bending, bad/no clothes fits, bad/no image composition, et al. thus it is customary for folks to post congratulatory messages below poser images at poser-related sites, even if the image is poor, because we've learnt thru long experience that telling 'em their images are poor only results in lynch mobs and hurt feelings. that's why I encourage everyone to join the critique group. it will not only boost one's ratings, but the helpful comments will allow one to improve one's image quality.

Quote - no, poser is held to the lowest standard IMVHO. the assumption is that the typical poser user's image will have bad lighting, bad/no shadows, bad/no facial expressions, bad poses, bad/no backgrounds, bad joint bending, bad/no clothes fits, bad/no image composition, et al. thus it is customary for folks to post congratulatory messages below poser images at poser-related sites, even if the image is poor, because we've learnt thru long experience that telling 'em their images are poor only results in lynch mobs and hurt feelings. that's why I encourage everyone to join the critique group. it will not only boost one's ratings, but the helpful comments will allow one to improve one's image quality.

What you are mentioning here probably contributes a lot to poser's negative stereotype.

Another part is that I've seen a number of flame war type post from slighted poser artists whom have ventured into the 'outside world' and instead of getting praise, like they do here, have gotten a hefty dose of critique, got their feelings hurt and got combative.  This too promotes the stereotype of poser being a low end wannabee artist application.

Unfortunately those kinds of unpleasant exchanges end up getting more exposure, then some very nice well done pieces in poser.

And yes, there are areas in which poser just doesn't cut the mustard. I think that when anyone from 'poser world' starts getting professional work, they end up finding that out sooner or later, and eventually moving to other applications.

Is it possible to get professional work using poser... well, that would depend on what kind of quality is needed, and in what timeframe. There is quite a bit of variation in what's needed in professional graphics. Many times it's not necessarily soimething that challenges the limits of a high end application or of a trained artist, and someone with a more limited application or skillset can probably do a very satisfactory job.

Could you make a movie like Shrek or some other money making 3D blockbusters with it, on time and within the budget...  I don't think so.

As for me personally, I like to tinker with poser, but having learned a fair amount in higher end apps first, I end up finding Poser very limiting in my particular creative process. Which is not to say that Poser has no merit. It's a surprizingly powerful application, especially for the money, and availability of content and community support makes it very fun to use.

Maybe I'm afraid of change or something but I really like using Poser and since I only use it to make images for fun (just for my personal collection and some friends who like them) I just don't have a need for using any other programs.
 
I guess its similar to how I actually do have Photoshop but continue to use PaintShop Pro because its something I know and am comfortable with. And for 3d modeling, I still design and build in Spazz3D then export VRML to import to Flux (which of course I could model in there but don't know the program so don't use it) then to export again as 3ds. 

I think its all a matter of preference. If you plan on making your artwork a business or would like it shown worldwide then it would be a good idea to use the other/better programs. But if (like me) you just do it for the fun of making something, then stick with what you know "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" right?

hmm.  let me clarify.  i wasn't saying: is poser perfect or can it do the same things as maya?  in fact, i wasn't even talking about animation (i should have been clearer about that).  this was still images. and i didn't mean here, i meant elsewhere.  if you want to rant on the commenting system here, please do that in another thread because it's completely unrelated.

let me repeat myself : "is it impossible to break into any professional cg ranks at all using "poser" figures or content?  is the bias so strong, that no matter what quality the work, people only see the flaws?"  notice the "poser figures or content."  not,  "is poser limited."  this is about the bias against it, not the quality of work.  as i mentioned, i've generally seen significantly worse posing and expression at other cg sites, and i've rarely seen work as good as addy's worst.  i'm not saying poser isn't limited- i've used it for years and i know its limitations well. 

i'm not asking should poser work get a  pass or saying "poser work is all perfect."  nor am i trying to start a debate about the quality of poser as a tool.  i'm asking whether people turn off the moment they recognize vicky or miki or other "poser" content, or flip to ultra critical. 

so it's better to have a picture in maya or cinema4d or max or lightwave, with poor posing and poor expression and hackneyed composition? with yet another female made from scratch that has 1/10 the quality of the available figures?   or to do badly proportioned, stiff, ludicrously posed cg drawings and paintings?  ok, i'll buy that, but i kind of think that sucks.  and that's honestly what i'm seeing get praised while some of the best work i've seen gets trashed for being based on a poser render.

OK what I'm seeing is this:

You're looking for a massive amount of personal opinion on something that everyone is going to feel differently about.

I, personally, would prefer to see a nicely composed, well thought-out and/or high-quality detailed in postwork Poser render than some crap, quickie, slapped together image rendered in what would be considered a 'better' program.

Its about art people... Not how much money you spent to make it. I love Thomas Kinkade, I think his work is incredible. I don't care if he got his paint and brushes online from some exotic over-seas exclusive dealer or if he bought them for $2.99 at Hobby Lobby. Its about the final product and if it looks good.

So yes, I would rather see a beautiful render come out of Poser then something very poorly done from something 'better'

It's guilt by association (both positive and negative).

There's no debate that really good work using Maya or one of the other high-end suites will blow a really good Poser render out of the water, simply due to the limitation of the technology.

We know it's really easy to do a crap Poser render.  It's harder to do a crap Maya render of the same (lack of) quality if you make everything yourself.

Thus the equation: if it's hard to do, but it's crap, it's still better than Poser because they didn't have to work as hard to make the same level of crap.  And since, theoretically, my program can do better than Poser, I am better than someone using Poser, even though they are producing good images and I am still producing crap images.

Which leads one to the conclusion that people putting out crap images in a high-end program, unless they are using them as practice to get better, are dumb.  I say that because why are they putting all that time in to make crap when the same quality of crap can be produced far easier?

"i'm asking whether people turn off the moment they recognize vicky or miki or other "poser" content, or flip to ultra critical. 

so it's better to have a picture in maya or cinema4d or max or lightwave, with poor posing and poor expression and hackneyed composition? with yet another female made from scratch that has 1/10 the quality of the available figures?   or to do badly proportioned, stiff, ludicrously posed cg drawings and paintings? "

To the first part of this ?.....Yes.  The folks I know in the industry do not want any recognizable Poser figures.  Period.  Why?  When they pitch their products it would be a kiss of death to have someone pop up and say...."Why isn't that Vicki as the virtual person in the architectural walk through, etc."

Answer to part 2.....NO....that's absurd.  I also would love a link to some of this pics that are so badly done.  They may have been striving to create a good mesh with excellent topology, and, I'd have to see the pictures to make up my own mind as to the actual quality.  People at CG talk are often more into showing off their "models" than actually playing around posing them.  Over all, you get far less kudos for badly done work at the cg sites than one gets here,.

Quote - Which leads one to the conclusion that people putting out crap images in a high-end program, unless they are using them as practice to get better, are dumb.  I say that because why are they putting all that time in to make crap when the same quality of crap can be produced far easier?

I had thought we were talking about the 'finished product' and artwork, not modeling and building. 

Imagine this:
You have never before used any CG program and have never seen this topic before. You then go to browse galleries (not just here) to see if there's anything you like. What kinds of images would you be drawn to?

---That is the mind of your average retail customer. That, I believe, is the question being asked.

To find an aswer just look at a simple tool: A pencil.
Not anybody able to hold this tool is automatically able to do great artwork with it. But, obviously, it is possible. On the other side: Not each picture perfectly made is automatically art. Some are simply well done handcraft.

**I had thought we were talking about the 'finished product' and artwork, not modeling and building. 
**However, at some of the more technical 3d sites folks are showing off their TECHNICAL skills.  Sometimes in hopes of getting commissioned to model something.  

You then go to browse galleries (not just here) to see if there's anything you like. What kinds of images would you be drawn to?
I love, absolutely love, some of the stuff created with zbrush, or zbrush and another base modeller.  I like unusual, one of a kind pieces.  I am not into pinups much.  I sort of also like weird, with awesome lighting.

It is to Poser (even more so to DAZ|Studio) that the 3d community often turns their respective noses at what we do (even though we could do the same with a morph injection)
But some in the 3d community often attack each others work on far more complicated 3d packages who have done incredible work simply from jealousy. I've seen incredible work on raph3d in Maya or Lightwave only to scroll down and read some response that is totally unwarranted. Artists are funny people. That being said; for the most part this echelon of the 3d community is treated as second class citizens (if we're lucky) by most 3D "Artists"

Quote - let me repeat myself : "is it impossible to break into any professional cg ranks at all using "poser" figures or content?  is the bias so strong, that no matter what quality the work, people only see the flaws?"  notice the "poser figures or content."  not,  "is poser limited."  this is about the bias against it, not the quality of work.  as i mentioned, i've generally seen significantly worse posing and expression at other cg sites, and i've rarely seen work as good as addy's worst.  i'm not saying poser isn't limited- i've used it for years and i know its limitations well. 

Perhaps, for this type of discussion we need to give the 'professional CG' little narrower definition?

As a standalone artist, probably. As a standalone artist, tool that you use is not nearly as important as your work.
As a 'production artist', first you'd have to find a place to work where they actually use poser. I think that's going to be hard to find, if it exists at all. It's not just Poser, but you will notice that most applications that specialize in just one or two things, especially in a somewhat pared down format from high end applications, are not being used very often.

It's same in my field of 3D, which is not in CG. As a director of my depatment, my concern in choosing applications and hiring people is much more complex then the merit of a single application or the capability of a single user. It is how an application or a hiree will fit in the big picture. I do run across nifty aps, for example, which I can not use, because they do only one thing out of 10 things that need doing, and even though great at that one thing, by the time I get the data ready for the next step, in a different ap, I lost all the savings in transitions.

Anyway, what I'm getting at, there are a lot more considerations in professional world, then just the merit of a single application or a single artist.

As for freelance artists, I've a tiny bit of freelancing myself and discovered that many times it's more dependent on how good your promotion and marketing skills are then how good you or your application is. As long as you can produce satisfying results in a timely manner.

*i'm not asking should poser work get a  pass or saying "poser work is all perfect."  nor am i trying to start a debate about the quality of poser as a tool.  i'm asking whether people turn off the moment they recognize vicky or miki or other "poser" content, or flip to ultra critical.  *
IMHO the answer is NO not all people, only the mediocre snobs that "Think" they are the best out there because they use hi-end apps!

I do book covers for 2 different publishers that cater for very different tastes in shall we say literature and I'm hoping to get a third one on board next Month, I only use Poser 6 or 7, Vue6Inf and Photshop CS2, no hi-end stuff here.
They are happy with my work and I have covers in print to prove it, the only peeps who denigrate Poser are the snobs of the 3D art world and they don't matter a shit at the end of the day.

So in answer to your question: NO people don't get turned off, lots of publishers are quite happy to use work done in Poser or any other medium, at the end of the day it's the quality of the work that matters, not what software you used to create it!

you can't say poser is never used professionally, if you go to e frontier site and read through some of the customer stories there are some who use poser in their professional work,  it may not be the only 3d package they use but there is use for it even if it is pre visiualization of an idea, but if all you know is poser then you will probably have a very difficult time breaking into the industry

I forgot one more thing... to get hired on as an artist somewhere, a person needs to have a well developed portfolio. Your portfolio will get reviewed by potential employers, among many others. They are judged on several levels. Undestanding of artistic elemennts like lighting, composition, color, communicating a message, and creativity, originality and technical ability within the applications.

On has to admit that use of pre-made content is not going to get you really high marks on creativity, originality and at the minimum cast a shadow of doubt on technical ability.

About various CG sites, a person does encounter a lot of young artists whom are still trying to make it in the field, and whom are in the process of trying to get noticed and building their portfolios, whom are all to conscious of all of the above. 

Also, it has a lot to do with copyrighting too. Poser content, of course is made to be used and expanded on... Lot of times when you are hired to do a piece, the paying customer wants 'exclusive rights'. Well, with poser content, it would be pretty hard to create a very exclusive piece that didn't carry a strong resemblance of another character already in existance. I'd have to review the license agreements for Poser content, and see if you are able to create a piece using it, and then sell exclusive rights to it. 
What's to prevent someone from taking, I dunno, Aery souls Alice, make a portrait with default pose, clothing and ligting, and sell it to someone unsuspecting claiming they have exclusive rights to use that image, for a few grand. I would think that has a potential to be a big can od worms.

You could, by making your own textures and making your own morphs etc... then you could do a final render and scene assembly in poser.  I can tell you, having the ability to do the above, model, UV map, texture, assemble a scene (at lest technically), and knowing several other apps, Poser is the last app I would switch to from the modelling aps to put a scene together. Comparing few other applications I use, it's a pain to use Poser, nor could I do some things in a timely manner in Poser, if I were on a deadline. For one, compare setting up a magnet and adjusting a piece with a magnet, to being able to select a few vertices and deform a mesh in other apps. After a while, if you're spending double or three times the amount of time it takes to create something, you're watering down your income as a professional, to say the least.

The times I do use poser is when I'm trying to prepare content for someone else to use in poser.

Anyway, that's another consideration for professionals, since they often sell exclusive rights to their work.
Also, what if someone wanted to contract you to give them your meshes too? As is often the case in some of the work I do? Poser content license agreement doesn't allow you to redistribute them. 

See, how using Poser and pre-made content can a number of limitations? Lot of times it's not just the look of the end product that matters.

Gah! Am I the only one who does this just cuz its fun and I like it?!

I do it for fun also, I don't expect to ever make a dime off computer graphics.  It's already cost me many thousands of dollars.  Like any community, the computer graphics world is segregated pretty strongly - there are elitists, and there are huge numbers of ordinary people that the elitists look down on.  There is no automatic connection between being an elitist, and actually being good at anything in particular.  

On the other hand .... I think there are a lot of levels of creativity, but I tentatively agree that I don't get too excited over an image that is composed entirely of:

• Canned character morph and materials
• Canned pose
• Canned props and clothing
• Canned lights
• Canned postwork filter

For what it's worth, when my father looked at my pin-ups he thought they were real girls, LOL! He asked me where I got them and if I had to pay them for posing.

Quote - For what it's worth, when my father looked at my pin-ups he thought they were real girls, LOL! He asked me where I got them and if I had to pay them for posing.

:lol: That's funny! I remember that people who don't care much about the creation of 3D-art are often say something like "wow, this person looks like real" and such things.

Quote - hmm.  let me clarify.  i wasn't saying: is poser perfect or can it do the same things as maya?  in fact, i wasn't even talking about animation (i should have been clearer about that).  this was still images. and i didn't mean here, i meant elsewhere.  if you want to rant on the commenting system here, please do that in another thread because it's completely unrelated.

let me repeat myself : "is it impossible to break into any professional cg ranks at all using "poser" figures or content?  is the bias so strong, that no matter what quality the work, people only see the flaws?"  notice the "poser figures or content."  not,  "is poser limited."  this is about the bias against it, not the quality of work.  as i mentioned, i've generally seen significantly worse posing and expression at other cg sites, and i've rarely seen work as good as addy's worst.  i'm not saying poser isn't limited- i've used it for years and i know its limitations well...

In the recent Buzz3D related thread I said already that I can not confirm this biased approach for the professional artists that I know. I noticed however that it can be difficult to explain the value(s) of 3D-art to professional traditional artists. But that's more of a philosophical thing than something related to technical capabilities of either way to get the result.
Poser figures are sometimes used in professional context in some part of a workflow and sometimes they aren't. If the Poser figure serves the need than it will be used rather than creating a completely new figure.

The bias... Well, even if it does not sound nice I will say it like I hear it all the time: what is considered way above average Poser work here or at some other places is considered mediocre by many, if not most, professional artists. Especially if they studied both, traditional and CG art. Their arguments are that some addy-style pic requires nothing more than some practice. Practising the eyes, learning the applications that are used. Thus they won't consider it noteworthy skill just like it is not really a "skill" to learn a 3rd or 4th language over many years.
While studying art there'll be a point, I think it was after 6 semester, when students are expected to do pictures of way above average quality. A serious pro artist will of course many years after study and with thousands hours of painting only look down on those who dwell all life long on their mediocre level and think of them as great artists.
This looking down is not because of results but because of limits; - self imposed or natural.

Then again, if I ask our professionals what they think about what I did in some of the fancy apps by going most windingly ways to reach my rather poor result they don't look down at it. There are some technical comments and some saying like "oh yes, that's interesting, you should spend more time doing this" - something similar to some of the "great work, excellent, hugs, kisses, luv ya" here.
Ahem... Yes, it is possible to get respected by professional artists for using premade content.
It is not even more difficult than trying it with selfmade content.
If one uses some ready figure and clothes and creates some other parts of the scene by himself the picture suddenly won't look like all the other pictures. If this person has some skill using his chosen app then the result can be a decent picture. Showing this picture to any professional artist won't automatically make them look down at it as soon as the creator mentions Poser. There is some more logic for this statement in my other comment on the Buzz3D thread.

Using Poser right now and posting the results to certain galleries/forums will unlikely convince biased or ignorant people. That now is only the logic behind being biased or ignorant and the natural behaviour of people sporting said traits.More successful could be to use their favorite apps to make art they appreciate and then switching to Poser and do exactly the same.

Take Photoshop and XSI. With Photoshop it is said that one needs not much skill to totally destroy the least bit of artistic content an picture had. With XSI one needs much more skill to (artistically) destroy a pic, but one also needs a long time to see only a simple first result.
PS postworked pics will almost always look like that: PS postworked pics. Another category that is looked down at.

One could say it's the wide userbase that uses PS without a certain level of skill and thus their many mediocre / bad results drag down the few sophisticated results with them.
That's the same with Poser.
Those semi-professionals that fear the sight of Poser content in their sacred galleries have not much in comon with professional artists; except the will to dedicate themselves to their application or technique.
A professional architect won't look down at roman architecture because, if compared to gothic architecture, all they could do was to build squares or rectangles with some simple holes in the walls that serve as windows. - That's now a very reduced description and not an erudite one.
Some aspects of Poser can be compared to roman architecture, others are on pretty much the same level as in more flexible apps. A Poser picture done with knowledge about the application and with artistic skill is a Poser picture; ergo it can not be compared to a Max or Maya picture as it is. It can be compared with the used program in mind and by it's artistic value.
Those who can do this will do it. Those who can't do it today because they still have to estimate and judge about things will do it some far away day.
This leads to: it is definitively possible to "break into any professional cg ranks at all using 'poser' figures or content".

I could right a 1000 page book about Main 3D App's.

I have Lightwave,C4D,zBrush.been in the main 3D App realms for years.

Out of the all the 3D Artist in all the realms.

Only a very very very few could model a character = to Vicky or any Poser Character.

Much less,map,rig animate there character.

Main 3D App's are for 3D Professional Crews not one man show hobbies on a budget.

Very few can do it all in a main 3D app.

To model,map,rig animate your character in a main 3D App.

Would take years to learn it all and get good at it all.

Main 3D App's have a lot better rigs and some killer render engines.

You just can not compare the Fab 5 to Poser.

Every Thing is Deferent even the people and the way they thing is totally deferent.

Unless ya spent time in both realms it is difficult to get some one to understand how the others think.

Would not Post a Poser Render at CGTalk for any reason what so ever.

Some of the reasons the Fab 5 hates Poser.

1.It's cheating

2 It's to easy

3 Takes no skill

4 All the renders look a like

5 It's affordable

6 They took 3 months to model a untextured face they modeled that does not quit look right but you rendered a hole character in 10 minutes.

there frustrated beyond words they want there complete character looking correct.but 6 months for it is not practical but they done spent 3 months to get this far.

can not quit after 3 months but ya can't spend another 3 months on the same mesh.

Some of the reasons to hate the Fab 5 App's.

1There built for 3D Crews

2 Takes for ever to get any thing done buy ya self

3 $$$ way to much

4 The learning curve would strain Einstein's brain.

5  They drive you insane.

Out of ever 50 that starts a fab5 app 49 of them just quit.

There hard.Rocket science does not have nothing over them.

Out of 100 that do stay they learn one or two parts of the app very few learn all the app.

I could go on and on but I think ya get the point.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

I can animate a fully textured figure walking across a room with dynamic clothing & hair, lit with volumetric lighting & even have them talk while doing it & all for less than $200 with poser, there isn't a single high end app that can do the same thing straight out of the box.

Quote - OK what I'm seeing is this:

You're looking for a massive amount of personal opinion on something that everyone is going to feel differently about.

I, personally, would prefer to see a nicely composed, well thought-out and/or high-quality detailed in postwork Poser render than some crap, quickie, slapped together image rendered in what would be considered a 'better' program.

Its about art people... Not how much money you spent to make it. I love Thomas Kinkade, I think his work is incredible. I don't care if he got his paint and brushes online from some exotic over-seas exclusive dealer or if he bought them for $2.99 at Hobby Lobby. Its about the final product and if it looks good.

So yes, I would rather see a beautiful render come out of Poser then something very poorly done from something 'better'

Lucifer_the_dark, Yep.

Anasta, contrary to the image "they" like to portray to everyone. 

When you get into professional art, or even the point where your showing works in a gallery or museum. The art stops being about art, and instead becomes all about the money.

Just ask that poor old woman that found a jackson pollock painting.

She's been snobbed, scorned, and looked down upon, by the "art community" at large, not because of the painting itself, the painting itself is worth millions,  but because of her profession before she found the painting. 

She was a truck driver.

They should be careful abusing truck drivers, they have a habit of going on strike & where would they get their caviar then?

LOL!
A truck driver who does Poser art would exercise a higher form of penance then?
For some reason the divine comedy popped up in my head...

Quote -  

Some of the reasons the Fab 5 hates Poser.

 

1.It's cheating

2 It's to easy

3 Takes no skill

4 All the renders look a like

5 It's affordable

6 They took 3 months to model a untextured face they modeled that does not quit look right but you rendered a hole character in 10 minutes.

there frustrated beyond words they want there complete character looking correct.but 6 months for it is not practical but they done spent 3 months to get this far.

can not quit after 3 months but ya can't spend another 3 months on the same mesh.

 

1. Who's it cheating, art is is about art, not how it is produced. Whether its a top class render, or something made out of a pile of stuck together milk cartons, IF it is pleasing to the observer, it works.

2. It,s so easy. Well clearly it isn't, or we wouldn't have so many cases cited of 'crap renders'.

3. It takes no skill. As above.

4. All the renders look alike. Just like 'posers' playing with a more complex tool, but don't have the skills to use it.

5. It's affordable. As are top level tools to non-artists with rich dads.

6. This is just gobbledy gook with attricious grammar. I'd need to be a rocket scientist to understand it.

Poser is unashamedly nothing like as complex as the high end apps, nor should it be. It is however a potentially powerful tool, usable by those with a requisite skills to produce fine results.

It seems strange to me, ridiculas in fact, that in the case of poser, the very worst examples (and they are numerous I admit) are used to assess the apps abilities, while only the best examples are cited to assess the abilities of the high end stuff.

Surely it is more reasonable to assess ANY tool on the BEST work created with it, not the WORST.

Unless of course it is only about snobbery and spin. ;)

Quote - IF it is pleasing to the observer, it works.

To the uninformed viewer, sure.  On the other hand, when you see GND2 wearing Aery_Soul clothes and hair, against a Bogwoppet backdrop, lit with RDNA lights, in a Martelo pose, with Antje photoshop filter  ............  Note, nothing whatsoever against these merchants, they all make excellent excellent stuff.  And I am kind of pointing out a bad thing here, because this is how everyone (including Rendo) makes lots and lots of money, and this kind of describes many gallery postings here, including some of my own.  For example I use an Aery_Soul hair that is so amazingly flexible and awesome, I doubt I will ever move away from it, even if that brands me as a Poser poser.

All this works great for those that don't recognize it, but when you do recognize all of it, or even a lot of it, it can under-impress.

ps:

Quote - 6. This is just gobbledy gook with attricious grammar.

That's "attrocious".  I am reminded of an old saying about glass houses and stones.

Quote - > Quote - IF it is pleasing to the observer, it works.

To the uninformed viewer, sure.  On the other hand, when you see GND2 wearing Aery_Soul clothes and hair, against a Bogwoppet backdrop, lit with RDNA lights, in a Martelo pose, with Antje photoshop filter  ............  

All this works great for those that don't recognize it, but when you do recognize all of it, or even a lot of it, it can under-impress.

LOL, :) :) :) :) :)

Quote -
ps:

Quote - 6. This is just gobbledy gook with attricious grammar.

That's "attrocious".  I am reminded of an old saying about glass houses and stones.

Agreed. Sorry about that! It didn't read back like I meant it. Apologies, please disregard 6. I tried to delete it but wasn't in time. Ooops!

'so i went to look at the galleries of these vaunted artists that think addy's work is only passing ok, and i was kind of shocked to see pretty poor work. '

That's the real heart of the matter too and this is why I believe there is so much animosity from the other cg sites. Because Poser users don't have to spend much time creating each character and prop used they can spend their time on things like composition, lighting, expressioning, etc. This is not considered a strength by these others but a weakness in the quality of the images and I find it pretty ironic to say the least.

In the 3dbuzz thread I recall one of their members referring to Poser as a 'toy'. Yep, it is a toy - a very fun toy and it can be a damned creative toy too :)

Does it matter what others think? If people have plenty of time to make their own models for scenes all the more power to them. I don't have time for that anymore. I prefer to buy my models and or download the freebies for rendering. There's nothing wrong with Poser. Poser is better than most of those highend apps that take years to learn & frankly, I don't care to learn nor spend the money on them. Highend apps are nothing but bloatware with bells & whistles that most users don't even bother with.

(MHO)

But all this still means that if one looks after the technical aspects of his picture and the content is somewhat creative his picture can easily stand against any picture made in some high end professional app under the same conditions.

In an more real life production line there would be some people who do only models, other who do only textures, some technicians who know all the ins and outs of some renderer and some other folks to keep the production going. Which one of these is the artist now?
The limits of high end apps are not less annoying as the ones of Poser, but the limits are not really the reason for what Poser is looked down at. It's much more what is done with Poser.

if everybody would start to do his NVIATWAS in Max or Maya then there would be much more content for these apps and of course some people would look down upon the program and the users.
Or to take a different example: many people look down upon Windows98, XP, Vista because of all the users that have no clue how to use their OS and because of all the crappy actions they do. Stuff like getting viruses on their systems, slow their machines down because they install whatever stupid combination of drivers and programs, being unable to read the manuals and help themselves and so on...
How many people look down upon Win 2003 and the like? Much less. But there are much less stupid admin actions and the users usually can't do much harm except the admins let them.
Stupid actions are comparable to crappy/mediocre pictures which are the result of lacking knowledge about the used software.
Creating a 3D model after some real world object, a vehicle, building, whatever, is more technical drawing / engineering than artistic expression. Ergo, the technical drawing that many do in high end apps is on an artistical level comparable to placing models done by others in a scene and set up lighting, textures, bla bla.
While some play with figures and textures, others play with vertexes, nurbs and program/renderengine settings.

I play in a sandpit surrounded by a forest and a rivulet while you have to play in sandbox on an playground... I can with my friends dig and drag around the sand for years in that large sandpit and we have so much more freedom. Yeah, we are totally 1337! - In our sandpit...

**Poser is better than most of those highend apps that take years to learn & frankly, I don't care to learn nor spend the money on them. Highend apps are nothing but bloatware with bells & whistles that most users don't even bother with.
**It didn't take me years to be able to model in LW.  Within a month, I'd done a model or two, then began learning the rendering aspects.  Of course, if you don't care to learn that's a good way to remain static throughout your life.  If you have no high end app, how can you possibly label them all as :**bloatware"? ** LW isn't surely bloatware and **zbrush is the closest thing i've ever seen to something with a "make art" button. ** Check out what the new zb3 can do at pixologic.  Awesome, for only $489.

Of course, some would rather plop down thousands of dollars in the marketplace to get the latest stuffages that the others are buying that week.  Fine, it's your money.  You can spend it on what you like.  Me, I'd rather have the app, and the knowledge to make my own content.  "Cause I really don't feel like buying something that with a little effort, and tenacity, I can make myself.

There really needs to be a way to divide the modelers/Its gotta be all lovingly handcrafted or it is pathetic' crowd from the hobbyist crowd and the slowly growing "I want to tell a story and this is the method I choose' crowd. I'm starting to try and learn modeling to add detail to the scenes I have scripted; I have no interest in trying to learn how to accurately model living creatures. Since the content is available and useable, why waste time that could be spent keyframing or postworking reinventing a wheel that someone else does better than I could? There is the content mindset, where you feel the need to create each polypoint, and then there is the production mindset, where the final result is what truly matters. My goal is the production; that's why I use Poser. It can't do all that I want in animation, but it does one hell of a lot of it, and it doesn't require investing in a high cost base application that would go mostly ignored. Modelers with far more modelling talent and years more experience and skill than I make their talent available for those like me to pour =my= vision into. Anton's Apollo 2007 doesn't get up from the floor and animate himself, after all. In a lot of ways, he's a blank slate. Any personality he might have would be in the hands of the person animating and lighting him. And once I have things in the can, I would have no trouble listing all the content makers. They deserve credit for their work. That doesn't detract from my keyframing, scripting, lighting setups, scene construction and layout, camera keying, foley, scoring, timing and so on. These are two entirely different disciplines, and you can't compare or disparage one with the other, which is what goes on far too often (and I don't think you are doing this, Poppi, btw ;) ).

Quote - 'so i went to look at the galleries of these vaunted artists that think addy's work is only passing ok, and i was kind of shocked to see pretty poor work. '

That's the real heart of the matter too and this is why I believe there is so much animosity from the other cg sites. Because Poser users don't have to spend much time creating each character and prop used they can spend their time on things like composition, lighting, expressioning, etc. This is not considered a strength by these others but a weakness in the quality of the images and I find it pretty ironic to say the least.

In the 3dbuzz thread I recall one of their members referring to Poser as a 'toy'. Yep, it is a toy - a very fun toy and it can be a damned creative toy too :)

This is exactly what baffles me... people see one or two people of unpleasant disposition on one of the 'other sites' and right away, they take that to be the majority consensus on 'other sites'. 
The more I read and think about the issue, it seems to me more and more that the 'undeserved dissing of poser' is more of an exaggeration on part of many poser users, based on very few crappy people in higher end CG, then something that actually exists.
As for the crappy prejudiced people, ther's a dose of them just about everywhere, including here. I look at some posts on rendo, and they're just as negative about the high end CG as they claim somesuch higher end CG person was towards them. 

Also, it cracks me up, people are being so critical of the higher end CG people, then they turn around chum up to them and buy their content.  I'd be surprized if that doesn't get them ticked off and decide to not make any more $1.99 content for the ungrateful bunch.
Gah, the more I think about it, the more it gives me heartburn!
[dragon-kitty]

The recent batch of it does seem to be very passive-aggressive, yeah.  Only one person in the 3dBuzz thread was blatantly disrespectful, and his fellows were pretty down on that.

And all this 'Dissing' of poser by the professional level CG... other then hearsay, I'm yet to see it happening.
I've seen poser Dissed one other time, by some juvenile typing (ho r u 2dy) twit on deviant art (which I would hardly consider 'high end or professional CG' in most cases).
I regularly study/read/examine places like CG Talk, where you find more 'high end', and I never hear a peep about poser being dissed.
I also heard of a few cases when someone built their portfolio using Poser and attempted to get a job in a studio, and got rejected, because that's not what they were looking for, and the applicant got all indignant about the criticisam how Poser doesn't really showcase their skills.
For examplke, I'd like to hear from people whom man the Renderosity booth at siggraph, and see if poser is really being dissed as much as I keep hearing it does (I find it extremely hard to believe).

Then I look here, and some of the people whom are vocal about 'poser being hated by the users of higher apps, use the same higer apps and are planing to make morphs and characters etc.

It seems almost like some sort of rite of passage around here, to have periodic, woe is me, poser user whom is not getting proper attention and recognition of their work from the big bad mean elites.

[Kitty pops a rolaid and continues reinstaling apps...]

Poppi,

I only do this as a hobby these days. Granted, like I said, if you have the time & money to learn go for it. I prefer to render animations. I dont want to model. Poser suits my needs. I do make some of my own stuff for my scenes but nothing extreme. I do have an old copy of Max for that. I can only spend an hour or so on Poser animating. My job is 35 hours a week little time to play. I find it easier to buy or download the models if I need too. I dont have months or a month to learn new software at the moment. And, a highend app, IS for the most part bloatware. Maya & Max are indeed bloat. Have you seen the size of those programs lately, & the hefty price tag??? If I had the money Maya would be my choice for animations.

(MHO)

CobaltDreamns Asked why some of the 3D Artist from the Fab 5 App's raged Poser.

So I attempted to give CobaltDreamns a understandable answer.

CobaltDreamns Did not ask what RorrKonn thought of Poser So lets not kill the messenger.

ScaBrat Quote "6. This is just gobbledy gook with attricious grammar"

ConnieKat* Quote Then I look here, and some of the people whom are vocal about 'poser being hated by the users of higher apps, use the same higer apps and are planing to make morphs and characters etc.

It seems almost like some sort of rite of passage around here, to have periodic, woe is me, poser user whom is not getting proper attention and recognition of their work from the big bad mean elites.

I am RorrKonn I am the mean elite.

I can model charter meshes = to V4 or any charter mesh ever modeled and I can even model them in TrueSpace.

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_3DArt/RK_Chrome_Portrait_01.htm

Chrome was Modeled in TrueSpace.

TS is considered a toy buy the Fab 5 app's,But they had to respect Chrome.

How do I know how some of the Fab 5 Artist fell about Poser ?

Cause I use Poser have Poser Renders at my Gallery

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_3DArt/00_3D-Renders_Main.htm

Every now and then some one will rag me about using Poser.

I tell them to show me there character that they modeled that is = to mine or DAZ's V4 etc or Poser stock meshes..

So far none has shown me one then they rag me about my grammar or something.

Search the main app forms your find comments about my grammar.

Got my very first PC in 1998 could not read or right no better then a preschooler.

At least my grammar is = to a 1st graders now ;)

I do not care who thinks what about me ,my grammar or the app's I use.

I care that I have proven I am the mean elite with any app and they half to respect that.

Some one posted at CGTalk "I am going to teach a class on how to model characters so how do you model characters."

My response got my post censored witch I understand the monitors have a tuff job.

But for years was to long for me.

So I do not go to CGTalk much any more

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

Now if only all the "elitists" would spend a day or two in some really professional environment, e.g. some special fx studio or game developer, and then reconsider their elitist status, taking into account that they spend weeks or even months on something that real world industry expects to be done in a few days maximum with at least the same level of quality.
Not everybody who makes a few bucks every now and then is a professional or specialist of some application and not everybody who grows a few vegetables in his garden is a farmer or agricultural engineer.

@RorrKonn: May I ask where you come from or what is your native tongue?
Some of the pictures on your website look very nice. I think it would be good to elaborate the traditional skills.

I'm from USA Lived in Tennessee,West Virginia,Virginia,North and South Carolina,Georga,Florida.

Was a hoodlum skipped school a lot.

Once when a land lord threw us out he said we where a bunch of longed haired tattooed hippies that belonged out in the woods some where.he meant it as a insult but we took it as a complement.we where heatherns.

I started drawing comic book characters in second grade,in 8th grad art class I painted the cover of KISS Destroyer & Iron Maidens Killers with acrylics.12th grade Art class I drawed the KISS Solo Album of Gene with pastels.

Wanted to be a rock star so played guitar in a garage band.Had a red Gibson flying V.

I have done custom paint jobs on vehicles in Atlanta

Air brushed tShrts and painted billboards at Panama City Beach.

Done Tattoos in Prison

at one time or other painted,drawed with all the mediums.

been making a living one way or the other with some form of Art since I can remember.

had art class in 8th grade,12th grade and a semester in college it was art 101 the teacher asked me why I took it cause she didn't think I needed it I just wanted to be around other Artist.

Went to college 5 years for a computer science degree I never graduated.

I just don't do school very well.
Done sculpturing with deferent clays,I just like Art.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

ok, let me further clarify a few things.  what i'm seeing is work far below the quality of the poser work being criticized.   way, way below.   in originality, in technical ability, in composition, and most certainly in terms of use of light.  so debates about comparable quality are off the table as far as i'm concerned.  that is, the conversation will go where it will and that's fine.  what i'm talking about is literally seeing stuff i don't think is very good at all and that being praised or encouraged, while the same people speak disparagingly of poser work i consider far superior.  so i'm not getting into any debate about quality.

while i realize this is totally subjective, and i wouldn't begin to say i have the eyes of a professional illustrator, painter or cg artist, i think pjz99 can attest to the fact that i don't think any old poser render is automatically perfect or even good.

as for ps postwork: just about every painted image i've seen at cg society lists photoshop.  about 90% of the 3d images i've seen list it as well, along with maya, max, lightwave or other 3d programs.  perhaps i'm looking at the wrong ones, but they tend to actually be the highlighted "best" ones.

my point is this: i see mediocre or badly painted work, or a mediocre or anatomically ludicrous mesh, and i see people give advice, encouragement, and general praise.  i see poser come up, and then i see specific outstanding artists criticized that, as far as i can see, blows their work out of the water and is occassionally in the same genre (e.g., fantasy illustrations).  i've seen this many, many times.  i have never searched for it.  i don't know why you haven't seen it, but just in casually browsing at various places, i've seen it several times.  many members took part each time, and most times not one member chimed in with a more balanced approach. conversely, each time this comes here, at least one person brings up: "but most poser artwork isn't very good," another brings up, "but poser is very limited, " and so on, even if, as in this thread, such general issues aren't a part of the point.

so it's interesting to me, and what i wanted to know, if you haven't seen this bias.  that said, i'm not getting upset over a few trolls. i'm seeing general conversations denigrating poser in general, and some denigrating specific works that are far and away better than any of those complaining.  i'm seeing people lie about using poser meshes as a base for really great work, and that work being roundly praised until they're "outed."   i'm seeing actual site rules singling poser (and occassionally bryce) out for critical review.   none that i've seen have rules about yet another badly composed render of something that vaguely looks like some movie or tv star, yet another extreme and unrealistically translucent use of maya's skin shader, or another female figure shaped as if by a someone's whose only experience with females was a slightly melted barbie.   or any of the other myriad problems i've seen in the cg world- both 3d and 2d. and frankly, it's all just time learning a skill. how is learning to paint properly any different than learning to model properly?  sorry, but i don't see less talent and artistry in addy's work than those who cover the same themes over and over again. let me see if i can name them:

• hot girl in in various settings with weapon
• tough guy (mostly craggy faced and/or unattractive) in various settings with weapons
• pretty asian girl or guy with flowing clothes and sword
• panorama of tech city
• panorama of fantasy city
• wizard/sorceress at work- note: this is the only one where the figure is actually doing something other than striking a pose
• bumpy faced monster in "i'm bad" pose - note: glowing parts optional
• temple/place of worship with atmosphere & light beams
• temple/place of worship at night lit by fire
• random portrait of famous person, mostly with lighting and composition that wouldn't have made a very interesting photo
• goth character looking dark and angsty 
• goth character looking cute and menacing
• modern interior or exterior shot, in sunlight (note: must look as if neither time, nor nature nor human hand has ever dared marred the perfection of the beautifully expensive setting)
• space panorama using all the tropes and inaccuracies of modern cinema
• recreation of classic fine art style or actual painting

i love a lot of cg, but i see very, very, very little that is more a matter of vision and creativity than  a learned skill.  most is the same stuff over and over, with no risks and nothing unexpected, but occassionally executed with incredible skill .  so i don't buy that somehow working in maya is more than a technical skill, but that's all that painting realistically is.  i greatly admire technical skill. i think discipline and hard work are greatly admirable attributes, and you have to have both to get good at anything.

as for originality: the present cover of  "essence: the face,"  (and what i've seen in the preview of all of the contents) looks _ precisely_ like a custom morph(s) of v3, imho. especially looking at maria and model by janek .i personally find that the cg world follows mainstream media pretty closely, so i very rarely see looks so unique that  just about any standard white female of decent quality couldn't suffice as a base.  the same way most actresses are often so similar as to be almost interchangable, especially with dye jobs.  not that the myriad different takes on pretty white (or asian) female aren't wonderful and beautiful, each in their own way.  in the same way that natalie portman  and jessica alba are awfully beautiful in very different ways.  but neither is so unique looking that fygomatic couldn't reproduce both them, as well as many other actresses, with v3's face.  

and i'm not "ragging" on people who can model.  and i'm not saying, "woe is me."  what i'm saying is i am witnessing a huge double standard, where quality is not even vaguely the point of comparison, the tool is.  frankly, i've seen some paintings that were praised that could  and should have used poser or some other reference to get the foreshortening and shadows right.  and honestly, i'm not even complaining about it.  i'm certainly not talking about a review of my own work, which isn't even vaguely in the neighborhood of cgsociety quality. i'm not saying squat about the quality of the applications people use.  and i've seen tons of merchants post who use any number of high-end tools with marvelous skill, and who exhibit purely golden personalities that encourage and inspire rather than belittle and discourage.

to make an example: i once had a lawyer friend tell me that lawyers on tv are ridiculous because not only could women not wear such absurdly short skirts, only 3 colors of suit were ever acceptable in court: black, blue and grey.  that's it.  no leeway (according to her).  so it wasn't: most people who wear brightly colored suits make bad arguments.   it was simply: this is the norm, step outside of it and you're toast.  i know from anecdotal evidence that this isn't so fixed with "poser" figures (quotes because figures made in lightwave or max, with textures done in deep paint, and rendered in carrara or cinema4d really don't have any association with poser other than the community where it's popular).   thefixer mentioned his jobs, i've seen other's post about the money they make doing book covers, i've seen wolf359 say he works professionally with sanctumart figures, m2 and v2, and multiple "poser" works made it into exotique 2 (i think i last counted about 8 in the book preview, with sarsa, addy and phlox being the only artists i've identified).  but i've also seen strong bias and double-standards from whole communities.  so i'm trying to get a feel for how blurry the line is and where it lies.

Conniekat8 - i don't see where you get off ridiculing my question as a rite of passage. if you haven't seen the threads against poser at CGTalk, you must not be looking.  i browse there very occassionally, and i've encountered them multiple times.  and it's like you didn't even bother to read my original post, just glanced at the subject of the thread, and jumped to a lot of conclusions. for that reason i will repost two paragraphs i consider significant:

Quote - let me preface this by saying i do believe that making your own stuff means that it will have a more personal feel.  and while i think a lot of time and effort in high end apps goes to reinventing life in the same mold, standard pretty girl or bad boy portraits, and most of it is just as derivative if more skilled than your standard poser work, i do acknowledge that making your own stuff means you can implement your own ideas and your own styles more thoroughly than if you just combine pre-existing elements.  i think discussions about using premade or autogenerated content in any application is valid.  and i do think that since price of professional tools generally keeps them out of the hands of hobbiests, and poser is mostly used by hobbiests, the average skill and creativity of works in high end apps is greater than the average poser work as it should be.  professionals should, on average, out-perform hobbiests.  so i'm not trying to make a whole case about creativity and tools.

...

so i went to look at the galleries of these vaunted artists that think addy's work is only passing ok, and i was kind of shocked to see pretty poor work.  one person had really stiff, mediocre painted work, another  just postworked photos in very boring ways.  i looked more in the galleries, and was seriously underwhelmed.  and what got me was that exactly the same qualities they criticized in poser work- stiffness, incorrect anatomy, etc. - applied strongly to their own.

oh, and RorrKonn, i appreciate your contributions to this thread.

CGTalk poser threads (after a quick search, i'm sure i missed a few ) :

Poser 1
Poser 2
Poser 3
Poser 4
Poser 5
Poser 6
Poser 7
Poser 8
[ Poser 9

](http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=132&t=479640&highlight=poser) So, what poser bias ? Besides the little debris you find at all sites, the comments are all encouraging and insightful. Not many have ended up at the front page, but besides the first link, they arent that great to begin with so it's not surprising. But i don't see much poser bashing there ?

The fact is, most real 'pros' are more then happy to give anything a fair look. But you do have to do them the courtesy of listening to their crits with a patient ear, and not run back to poser sites at the first negative crit

And this one, the only 'negative' one i found (actually a D|S one):

Bad Poser

Which it partly deserves, because it is definitely a low quality work. And even then, only one user is being negative, an ex poser user mind you.

I haven't seen it much because frankly I'm a noob.  I've been doing artwork in any form since about November of 2006, about 8 months now.  I post here and read here because there's valuable information about the apps I choose to work with, and don't frequent some of the other forums mentioned because they don't have info about my apps.

Not like I was too poor to afford 3ds Max or other apps.  I spent two weeks trying to figure out rigging V3 in 3ds Max 9 before I decided I was wasting my time.  If there was a commercially-available, well-engineered, RIGGED, with JCM or some equivalent, human figure with a large complement of flexible morphs and materials for 3ds Max or Maya, I'd be using Max or Maya.  Money is not important to me.

If I had started with Max 8 months ago instead of the DAZ figures and Poser, maybe in a couple of years I could match pure number of man-hours that have gone into the rigging and morphing of a typical $30 Poser figure.  I do not think that is a good trade of time for results, I'd just as soon cough up $30 and spare myself a few years of work.  Anyone really putting forward the idea that ordinary individuals should be modeling, rigging, texturing, and doing all morphs and whatnot - this screams "you are a hobbyist".  Major animation production houses don't do it that way.  All the work is subdivided in a very bureaucratic way, and huge collections of proprietary content are designed and textured etc, and passed to other workers who may have no concept of how it was produced.  They're only concerned with using it.  This isn't really different from Poserdom except money does not change hands.

Granted, some people are capable of modeling, rigging, morphing, texturing etc a figure from scratch.  These people (e.g. Anton Kisiel) are very cool and brilliant, and I look up to them highly.  They also have many years' head start on me.  Should I stop my artwork and go train for 5-10 years before going forward again?  Someone can try to sell me on the idea that any random person can pick up 3ds Max and do all this in a short time; from direct experience with Max 9 on very high end hardware, I don't think so.  As I continue to learn and understand how these figures work, I really don't think so - JCMs are a very good example.  Seems to me the base model is rather the easy part, the rigging and morphing is where all the work goes.  

Cobaltdream could you cite some of these examples of what you're talking about e.g. yucky work?  I frankly don't go out and look for the stuff.  Yes you are very capable of looking at Poser renders with an unbiased critical eye, but since I don't know really what you're comparing it to it's hard for me to really benchmark anything (not that that's really needed here).

price of professional tools generally keeps them out of the hands of hobbyists Blender 3D is a free modeler with all of the features of a "professional tool," yet the Poser hobbyists--for the most part--won't even touch it. Why? Because--like the professional tools--it's hard to master. Poser by comparison is very easy to learn. Those who spend 3 months sculpting a figure, creating its textures, weight maps, morphs and rigging are liable to post images of their progress along the way. This might account for the poor quality of some of their renders. Naturally, some artists are more skilled than others. Poser includes content created by some of the best professionals in the business. Some professionals spend their careers posing and animating models created by other artists, or setting up scenes comprised of preexisting content. Of course they don't use Poser to do it. I wonder who is more of an artist:-a functionary in a CGI sweatshop or a Poser user with a vision? There really is no such thing as a Poser professional, but I'm sure that Poser artists exist.

Quote - Blender 3D is a free modeler with all of the features of a "professional tool," yet the Poser hobbyists--for the most part--won't even touch it. Why? Because--like the professional tools--it's hard to master. Poser by comparison is very easy to learn.

That is nonsense and untrue.  "The Poser hobbyists" includes myself, and I have two modeling apps installed on my machine now (Hexagon, Shade).  I use them when appropriate to use them.  Many many "Poser hobbyists" also mess with modeling apps when they feel the urge. 

That is nonsense and untrue. "The Poser hobbyists" includes myself, and I have two modeling apps installed on my machine now (Hexagon, Shade). Then you would fall outside of the "most Poser hobbyists" category that I specified. Granted, I haven't taken any survey. I'm not sure if you can rig, or animate or create UV maps, or 3D paint a model in Hexagon or Shade, but you can do all of this if you spend thousands for a top of the line modeler or download Blender 3D freeware.

Quote - I'm from USA Lived in Tennessee,West Virginia,Virginia,North and South Carolina,Georga,Florida.

Was a hoodlum skipped school a lot.

Once when a land lord threw us out he said we where a bunch of longed haired tattooed hippies that belonged out in the woods some where.he meant it as a insult but we took it as a complement.we where heatherns.

I started drawing comic book characters in second grade,in 8th grad art class I painted the cover of KISS Destroyer & Iron Maidens Killers with acrylics.12th grade Art class I drawed the KISS Solo Album of Gene with pastels.

Wanted to be a rock star so played guitar in a garage band.Had a red Gibson flying V.

I have done custom paint jobs on vehicles in Atlanta

Air brushed tShrts and painted billboards at Panama City Beach.

Done Tattoos in Prison

at one time or other painted,drawed with all the mediums.

been making a living one way or the other with some form of Art since I can remember.

had art class in 8th grade,12th grade and a semester in college it was art 101 the teacher asked me why I took it cause she didn't think I needed it I just wanted to be around other Artist.

Went to college 5 years for a computer science degree I never graduated.

I just don't do school very well.
Done sculpturing with deferent clays,I just like Art.

 

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

That's very extensive. Thank you. :)
It's not a problem to understand what you write. I have asked coz I thought your primary language is something else than english and 'cause we happen to "meet" regularly in this forum. My native tongue is German...

CS is a odd choice for study if you are interested in art. However, maybe you will finish the degree some day. I believe that it's not totally impossible to do the last few steps if you were able to stand that topic for 5 years already and it might be useful since many companies rather look for some piece of paper than for actual skill.
On your site the whole damnation themed pictures are standing out. IMO, they are the most in themselves complete works.

Maybe you know this site already: community.conceptart.org/
There are some capable and helpful people. Especially the Asians.

About the threads topic and the latest specification: using methods of psychology would do a better job if it comes to separating and delimit the reasons behind certain points of view.
Quality of pictures is a whole different topic, as cobaltqueen said already.

@cobaltdream: Your listing of picture themes deserves 5 stars... Excellent done! gg

i dunno.  i looked at blender3d, and tried some tutorials.  i didn't stop because it was hard.  i stopped because it was a lot of effort for a tool that didn't have subsurface scattering and needed a hack to duplicate the effect.  and i know of people who at least claim to use other high end tools that have said they found blender's interface to be just too complex.

i could go off on usability and the importance of interface in manipulating 3d objects with 2d tools, but i don't think it's necessary.

to be honest, i'm not sure i could even find them again.  i don't even remember what i was actually looking up to come across them, and i was going to several sites to look up info.  all i can remember is that i was researching painting.  or i think i was?  since then, other stuff including my job has become much, much more hectic, i've given up trying to render anything at a useful size in p6 but can't afford p7 right now, and other various issues that have made this and daz the only cg sites i've looked at in a several weeks. but when i was encountering this, i was looking around at a lot of places for what i think was info about painting techniques.  since the subsequent furor at work, i can only remember a bryce tutorial i stumbled across and these threads. work kind of booted everything else out my head.  at the time, i didn't want to start a thread about poser, creativity and quality, with lots of over-justification, so i figured i'd keep my thoughts to myself.  i only came back to it because the 3dbuzz thread came up and seemed so civilized. 

that said, if there's been an about face in a few weeks, i'd be surprised. 

ghonna - thanks very much for the links.  i actually find them quite heartening.  in response to "running back to poser sites," how many different ways can i say this isn't about  a review i've received?  frankly, i don't think it would matter what program i use- my first post to cgsociety will get slammed (if i ever make one).  because first everything sucks.  i'm guessing that the best tactic will be to gnash my teeth and beat my breast  or wail and moan in the privacy of  my computer room, internalize what i find helpful, throw out the rest, and thank everyone for their responses.   seeing the reaction isn't just,  "model your own figure," and "don't use poser," is very, very heartening.   i have seen people say precisely that.

i'm searching through cgsociety now, and i'm not seeing nearly as much positive as you did.  i'm seeing lots of, "it's better to model your own figures."  and people being outed for using daz content.  and even one person saying that calling anime uncreative is as bad as comparing it to Poser.  and that's just in the choice area.  but one statement was interesting: that functionality like poser would become the norm in 3d programs when we had completed a codification of the biped, and that those who slammed premade customizable content  as from poser (which many members mentioned) would become as out of date as the people who once slammed cg art altogether.  though now i can't seem to find that post again, so i should get some sleep.

Quote - > Quote - Blender 3D is a free modeler with all of the features of a "professional tool," yet the Poser hobbyists--for the most part--won't even touch it. Why? Because--like the professional tools--it's hard to master. Poser by comparison is very easy to learn.

Quote - That is nonsense and untrue.  "The Poser hobbyists" includes myself, and I have two modeling apps installed on my machine now (Hexagon, Shade).  I use them when appropriate to use them.  Many many "Poser hobbyists" also mess with modeling apps when they feel the urge. 

From my experience I found Poser easier to learn than Shade, which is easier than learning Maya or XSI, which are easier than CATIA.

Easy means that I can get a picture done without the need to look in any manual and without spending more than a few minutes with program/renderengine specific settings.Further does easy mean that not everything is suddenly totally fucked up because I clicked the wrong button.
This way I came to the order of programs as listed above.
I have never attempted to seriously work with Blender because the other applications are available already.

Poser is more difficult if one makes use of the dynamic cloth and hair and the material room.
But this type of difficulty is not the same as the one that requires to look in a manual because there is nothing that hints the user about what he did wrong and there is no way to use logic to understand the way the program functions.