i know of people who at least claim to use other high end tools that have said they found blender's interface to be just too complex. I think people who have high-end tools would find it redundant and pointless to put in the time learning Blender's interface. It is more difficult than their program of choice because they haven’t spent the same number of months learning it. I'd test this theory, but I'm too busy using Lightwave. Subsurface scattering is CGI icing on the cake. I’m sure it will be added to Blender eventually. In the meantime, you could spend a few years (or the rest of your life) just mastering modeling. I'll be unwrapping and UV mapping in Blender, which is superior to Lightwave in this department.

Quote - ... i've given up trying to render anything at a useful size in p6 but can't afford p7 right now, ...

As an aside, I cannot recommend upgrading from Poser 6 to Poser 7 in its current state.  The multithreaded rendering was the main reason I was interested in it, and currently it has some very bad technical problems.  Smoothing behavior is very erratic, and depth mapped shadows are inexplicably wierd for reasons I don't understand, e.g. line patterns in shadows that should not be there, even with very very high render settings and very large shadow map size.  I'm done wasting my time with it personally, it'll only be used to set up the scene and do any dynamic cloth or hair.  Even when smoothing worked correctly it was still far slower and lower quality than Vue.  Memory management is greatly improved, but that's really mostly an issue during rendering anyway, and that's FUBAR.

If you spend money, put it into Vue 6 of some version if you don't already have it.

Quote - ghonna - thanks very much for the links.  i actually find them quite heartening.  in response to "running back to poser sites," how many different ways can i say this isn't about  a review i've received?  frankly, i don't think it would matter what program i use- my first post to cgsociety will get slammed (if i ever make one).  because first everything sucks.  i'm guessing that the best tactic will be to gnash my teeth and beat my breast  or wail and moan in the privacy of  my computer room, internalize what i find helpful, throw out the rest, and thank everyone for their responses.   seeing the reaction isn't just,  "model your own figure," and "don't use poser," is very, very heartening.   i have seen people say precisely that.

I wasn't singling you (or anyone else) out... I'm just saying that, that is what many people seem to do when they get negative crits for their poser work. I'm sure you have seen the regular posts about this that are created here right ?

Quote - i'm searching through cgsociety now, and i'm not seeing nearly as much positive as you did.  i'm seeing lots of, "it's better to model your own figures."  and people being outed for using daz content.  and even one person saying that calling anime uncreative is as bad as comparing it to Poser.  and that's just in the choice area.  but one statement was interesting: that functionality like poser would become the norm in 3d programs when we had completed a codification of the biped, and that those who slammed premade customizable content  as from poser (which many members mentioned) would become as out of date as the people who once slammed cg art altogether.  though now i can't seem to find that post again, so i should get some sleep.

CGtalk has more then a 100k members, and out of those barely a few thousand are the 'pros' The rest are the wannabes and the hangers on who have posts full of fanboyism and silliness. So of course every post should be taken with a grain of salt. But in general, the poser opposition is not as bad as most of us think it is. And it will keep becoming friendlier, the more people post there. That's how Vue, Wings and Blender got their own forums at CGTalk after all.

Also this : "and people being outed for using daz content."

This is something I would like to address. Note that in all the links i posted, the artist has clearly and in the first post stated that have used poser. And because they have been honest about what they have used and where, almost no one is jumping on them for using it.

It's the liars and cheats that get the bashing, and have gotten poser the reputation it has at such places. Not that poser is bad, or it's users are not artists, but that some of them like to make fake claims.

Heck you can even see this in our own galleries where we have some rather suspicious photo manips being passed off as poser work...

I don't think it's remarkable that people making renders in Poser, using models created by the very best in the business produce superior images to most of those who are struggling to create something completely original. Apples and oranges, yet we still compare.

@ ghonma

There all 2006,7

1/2 are in the 2D gallery.

1 thru 9 are more photo shop then Poser.

only one made it in choose gallery.

L33,The still of the moment.

He posted a simple DS render on the "3D form" no spent 2 days in Photoshop fixen's.

it is not that it is DS it's it has that simple 10 second render fell to it.

Posers do it from time to time also.

They always get critics.

You half to be nice at CGTalk.So they can not be mean.

The flam wars,arguing that go on here would never happen at CGTalk.

The flam wars,arguing that go on here would never happen at CGTalk.

That's baloney!!  CGTalk is on par with 3DBuzz when it comes to Poser bashing...  it's lightened up little bit as it seems someone affiliated with Poser advertises there bit it's still all pretty much the same but just not as blatant bashing as it is belittling condecention hidden behind lightly veiled contructive criticism...

G

Quote - That's baloney!!  CGTalk is on par with 3DBuzz when it comes to Poser bashing...  it's lightened up little bit as it seems someone affiliated with Poser advertises there bit it's still all pretty much the same but just not as blatant bashing as it is belittling condecention hidden behind lightly veiled contructive criticism...G

And many people here on rendo are making sure we don't fall behind in bashing them.  
Pot-Kettle   

The more I read the more I think it is true that many people see the smallest amount of criticisam as a major slam against them.

Oh well.  shrugs  Not my cup of tea.

Quote -
This is something I would like to address. Note that in all the links i posted, the artist has clearly and in the first post stated that have used poser. And because they have been honest about what they have used and where, almost no one is jumping on them for using it.

It's the liars and cheats that get the bashing, and have gotten poser the reputation it has at such places. Not that poser is bad, or it's users are not artists, but that some of them like to make fake claims.

Heck you can even see this in our own galleries where we have some rather suspicious photo manips being passed off as poser work...

i can see the point and why people get upset, but i also think it shows prejudice.  i shouldn't care whether something is a photo manip- if i can't tell, then it's still great.  i shouldn't get mad because i spent ages trying to get a  material and lighting correct, because i could do the same thing they did and chose to make my life harder.  that's not something i feel i should be proud of. i emphasize "i" because i really can't speak for anyone else, and i respect how others feel about this.

it's not a cheat to use poser.  what i percieve you're saying is that people should admit to specific short cuts, but not address the myriad of other short cuts they could (and do) take.  that, imho, is prejudice.

and did i mention that most of the images i saw being outed were not poser?  and yet called "crap"  because people thought they were?  but to me that's like saying, "i do things the long way for no reason."  i think people should be praised for getting a cheap solution to look like a custom-made expensive one, not put down for it.  since i usually go the long way in my own stuff (javascript, php & flash, not poser or cg stuff), i have to say i think it's just a waste of time.  i mean, fun and educational and all, but if i were looking to hire someone i can say i'd pick the person who doesn't reinvent the wheel and uses the easiest, quickest, cheapest and most effective way possible to achieve spec.  frankly, that's a skill in itself, and if you only know the long way, it's a more expensive hole in one's knowledge than the other way around.  i consider my propensity to build rather than customize a great, great weakness of mine. 

i mean, i looked at every page of the preview of the "essence: the face" book by ballistic.  every single piece looks so much like v3 i can't see the point.  why not just use the modeling tool of choice and morph away?  and to me, because it's cheating is not an acceptable answer when it comes to producting stuff under a deadline, even if that deadline is self-imposed.

that's just my opinion, and i can see and understand the other side.  i can get peeved when i see short-cuts to realism greatly praised without any acknowledgements of their shortcomings.  but i feel like that's something to get past, not encourage.

Quote -
And many people here on rendo are making sure we don't fall behind in bashing them.  
Pot-Kettle   

The more I read the more I think it is true that many people see the smallest amount of criticisam as a major slam against them.

Oh well.  shrugs  Not my cup of tea.

well, if that's true, then i feel once again like you either haven't been reading or you've been seeing what you want to see.  pretty much every single post in this thread has gone on about how open everyone should be to criticism and how much better non-poser work is.  the more i read from you, the more i feel like the only response you'd deem acceptable is, "yes sir, may i please have another."  some criticism is helpful and balanced.  and some is just unhelpful and biased double standards.  if there's a shift toward the former it's great, but i can say i've seen much, much more of the latter in the past.  and as i said, i'm not complaining about it. 

let me give another example.  when i was in college i interned for a very "old school." company.  if you had asked anyone, i'm reasonably sure they would have given the right answers about minorities and women.  but in this conference room was a wall of pictures of employees of a branch of the company.  the glass ceiling was made very visible.  because people talked, i know that the only woman to be promoted to management was someone who had had an affair with a big boss, and actually managed to break up his marriage and secure him for herself.  there were just about no ethnic minorities in the entire company, unless you counted grounds workers, people in the caffeteria, and the people who washed glasswares (they were exclusively minorities).  and lots and lots of really racist comments were common around the office.  also, the company's clients were (in general) even more closed.  that's not a complaint.  that's just a fact.  and if one is female and/or not white, it's an important fact.  it was a place where someone who was not white and male would find it almost impossible to advance.  maybe that company has changed since then.  but if someone new was coming to that company (i interned over 3 summers, so i had time to get to know the culture), it would be good for them to know what the lay of the land was.

and here's the thing.  these were basically nice, good people.  they were decent, they were kind, they worked hard.  they were as honest as they could be without being unpolite.  but they were still very biased, still very limited by their own prejudices, and they still hurt a lot of people without thinking about it.  all of us do this to some greater or lesser extent.  in my experience, that place was on the greater side.

you cannot deal with a problem you cannot see.  and getting the perspective of more than one's own eyes is generally a good idea, because there's only so much one person can see.  that said, you can't sit there and tell me someone pissing on my leg is rain and have me believe it.

Quote - ... i shouldn't care whether something is a photo manip- if i can't tell, then it's still great. 

That depends highly on where the "great" part came from.  If I see a very sexy, slick image of Blackhearted/Rio's excellent GND2 (probably one of the best-crafted, most unique morphs of V3 that's commercially available) - "wow, amazing morphing, you really did an awesome job getting V3 to look very different from the default!"  Is that a fair credit?  So much of a given scene can be someone else's work, if you basically just plug it all together while changing very little, it may have great artistic merit, but whose art is it really?  One reason I am so anal about giving production credits, I don't want to be praised (or criticised, really) on things I didn't do.  I wish more people were thorough about this when showing their work and asking for feedback.

When somebody doesn't know the ins and outs, and does praise someone for some work they didn't really do, they get very annoyed.  I can understand the reaction you're talking about completely, where someone posts a quickie render to one of the "big boy" app forums and then gets outed, as you say.  If someone crops a photograph of a face in over their rendered image, however skillfully they might blend it in with photo manipulation - I should be praising their photo manip skills rather than the amazing, lifelike face.

Quote - well, if that's true, then i feel once again like you either haven't been reading or you've been seeing what you want to see. 

No, she's talking very specifically about a recent example - basically Operaguy went over to 3dBuzz and tried quite hard to pick a fight, even with people who were polite and accepting.  IMO Connie makes a good point.  I am sure at least a few 3dBuzz regulars read that thread, and came away with the conclusion "man, some of those Poser users are jerks."

Quote - but if i were looking to hire someone i can say i'd pick the person who doesn't reinvent the wheel and uses the easiest, quickest, cheapest and most effective way possible to achieve spec.  frankly, that's a skill in itself, and if you only know the long way, it's a more expensive hole in one's knowledge than the other way around.  i consider my propensity to build rather than customize a great, great weakness of mine.

This works both ways. A person who only knows the short cut will be in a fix the first time they encounter something that is outside of what the short cuts handle. Someone who knows only the long way usually has a deeper understanding of the work and can often cobble together what they need from scratch, while the other guy is standing around scratching his head. Which is more expensive depends on how badly your system is screwed LOL

Quote - i mean, i looked at every page of the preview of the "essence: the face" book by ballistic.  every single piece looks so much like v3 i can't see the point.

You are not alone, other people were also complaining about the book at CGTalk. But the publisher donates part of the money from sales to run that site, so it can be somewhat excused i think.

Quote - i shouldn't get mad because i spent ages trying to get a  material and lighting correct, because i could do the same thing they did and chose to make my life harder.  that's not something i feel i should be proud of

I understand that you want every work to be judged solely on what it is and not where it came from But IMO in CG, the process is just as, if not more, important then the result. Because it's only the combination of process + result that lets us judge a work fairly. If we only use the result, then how do we discount the powerful hardware and software that is helping the artist, and get to the artist's skill itself ?

Or do we really want the richest artist with the largest runtime and the most expensive apps be the one with the most accolades ? Or the one most capable of deceiving people ?

@cobaltdream: One possible way to interpret ghonmas statement would be this:
Someone should mention it if he uses a model made by someone else.
If the any figure, hair, texture, cloth is not done by the creator of the particular picture and this fact is not mentioned along with the picture in question then it's prejudice.
It's the prejudice of that creator that other can read his mind. They lack this skill and thus is OK if they mention this bad project documentation. The wording is secondary at best.

And I would add:
The workflow should also be documented.
Figures posed in Poser but rendered in Max is not the same as completely done in Poser or Max. Postworked in Gimp or PS is not the same as postworked in Mirage...
But this is now easy enough to be continued without much explanations and examples.
If the documentation is done correctly there is no point to criticise other than the artistic value and the technical execution.

Sadly this means again that finding the reason for prejudice would require psychological analysis. Something I doubt any mortal human being can do without good knowledge about the people in question.
Can you explain to me why my neighbour reacted with the words when he was confronted with input and all you got is a single sentence of him or maybe some few sentences? ... See, it won't work.

What works is asking the neighbor himself why he reacted like he did. Often that won't give you more than a bunch of lies because humans are humans, but with some more questioning you come closer to the truth.
Ergo, the question asked here is not based on logic and no specification can make it logical.
The question how those people who respond here would react under all the given circumstances is a valid logical question.
Maybe this sounds a bit blunt, but you seem to be to focused on finding a truth where none can be found. To interpret requires already to be unbiased.

Yes, this would kill all the fun because without being biased there's no emotion left that could be roused... :tt2:

Thus spoke Zarathustra: The path of the creator.

@Cobaltdream's *you cannot deal with a problem you cannot see.  and getting the perspective of more than one's own eyes is generally a good idea, because there's only so much one person can see.  that said, you can't sit there and tell me someone pissing on my leg is rain and have me believe it.
*About the pissing on the leg argument, it goes both ways, you know. I'm going to be blunt here: This prejudice that you are trying to convince me exists, I haven't seen it in action. The onlly place I see it, is in some Poser users overblowing things when one of two things happen: (one) They get too sensitive to critique, or (two) on occasion some immature scmuck makes a disrespectful comment.

Neither of those two will convince me of existence of some sort of a prejudice against Poser. I understand the analogies that you are offering, and what it is that you think you are seeing. I'm telling you, I don;t see the same thing you are seeing. And also, no amout of your explaining, or for that matter, if I get 10 people telling me the same thing here on rendo, I'd still be extremely skeptical of this prejudice you speak of existing - among 3D professionals - those that count, not some immature snotty ignorant schmucks exhibiting bad behavior or a small handfull of knowledgeable people with unpolished people skills. 

If you want to convince me of this prejudice existing in any serious fashion where I would consider it a problem, you'd have to show me at least several hundred posts by a number of different reputable people in 3D industry disrespecting Poser or poser users. You know, people like Stonemason - to pick a name most people are familiar with and to follow your analogy of fitting into a prejudiced corporate culture you described.
I need to see much more substantial evidence then your emotionally charged argument. I mean, you haven't even presented to us what formed your opinions, other then a few hearsays and assumption that it is a widely accepted fact that this prejudice exists.

I'm sorry if that irritates you, but, without some more solid proof, I'm not going to change my mind to soothe your feelings. We'll have to agree to disagree, and I would very much appreciate it if you could do it without comments about my capacity to understand things.

This topic has come up every year ... both on other CG sites and on the Poser sites.  I was concerned when I started doing work and building a portfolio over at CG Society so ... I asked them outright after seeing some "put downs", in the competion forums.  I was told that it wasn't fair to the artists who modeled their scenes from scratch to compete with images that were prepackaged.  Now here is the cool thing that I found out, from one of thier administrators.  They are re-evaluating the whole Poser issue, based on people who are there for the "image" not for the 3d modeling aspect of the art.  (I think part of it is because e-frontier has become one of thier sponcers).  Something that would even things out a bit.  They were courtious and explained their "bias" and why.  And that that was changing.

Second thing ... In the Essance the face books ... I recognized at least one image PRINTED in the book that is from our Poser gallery.  Rogue So ... as has been said in different aspects of this thread ... there isn't a real bashing of Poser ... it's HOW it's being used.  If the user is "lazy" and trying to pass off prepackaged. (barbie doll dressup) work as high end 3d modeling ... yeah, I'd get a little annoyed too.  

Remember if you want to use Poser for professional art ... (as I'm working towards myself) you have to put the work into it.  If you are having fun as a hobbiest ... the rest doesn't matter, does it? 

Cheers
Boni

I really don't think it matters what software you use, the result is what is important.

Ultimately, if you can make something uniquely yours it doesn't matter where it comes from. That is why I love Apollo so much! I have at least twenty unique characters in my runtime that not one single person on Earth has, and for the most part their Apollo roots are practically non-distinguishable. Why would I start from scratch when I can start with Apollo as a solid foundation?

Having said that, I think the Poser community is its own worst enemy when it comes to being taken seriously. There are far too many images being posted that are essentially assembled rather than created. Character morph, texture, pose, clothing, light set, background, even photoshop action...all bought. I'd defy anyone to label this as art and keep a straight face.

@ CobalDreams

Thanks, I am enjoying this thread.

I understand you are searching for answers, to multiple questions.

It would be nice if some one could tell you the answers.

But I don't think there are any understandable answers when it comes to humans.

Ya go asking why do humans do what they do.

If we solved that question we would not only solve the Poser dilemma we would solve all of earths problems.

Thou paradise on earth would be nice,I have my doubts it will ever happen.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

@RorrKonn:  HAHA, well said my man! :)
I love what one of Charles Dicken's characters said about things like that in his novel Hard Times:
 "This life.... It's a muddle!"

Enjoyable read.

For me, the underlying question to the thread is, “Am I good enough to make a living at this?”

The answer: Some of us may find a way. Some never will. Others don’t care.

If you are willing to take a step beyond what you’ve come to identify with, you may be ready to find out.

It’s very simple, but scary as hell.

What is art? Ask the person who pees in a jar and sells it successfully to the public as art and even has the govenment sponsor it. I don't bother with what other people think of what I create I just enjoy doing it. I have made some rather good money with it, and with that I can pay for what I collect at the stores. Half the stuffage I get I haven't used, but if I do need it it's there so that doesn't bother me. When I first got into programming folks gave me a hard time about using Visual Basic. I got "a true programmer does it all from scratch". Hummm. How much time would that take if I just want to write something to use? I think Poser is an awesome program. I love Maya and the more I learn the more I love it. I will still use Poser because it does what I need. I was going to do some work on a film recently which is why I bought Maya. The idea that I had worked using poser as a base to get the idea across. This person hired 3 people from L.A. and put them to work on it. All Maya folks. When I walked in she introduced me and says "this is Marque, she's trying to learn Maya". I didn't let it bother me. None of the 3 were able to do what she needed and she told my husband later that I got closer than any of them just using poser. Her predjudice bit her on the butt. I have since done what she needed in Maya but have no desire to work with her. If you need to dig a hole and you can't dig it unless you have a shovel...if you aren't willing to use any tool to get the job done,  then you will never get it done. Just use the tools that get the job done and don't worry about what other folks think. You are the one with the finished product. I see a lot of head models that look incredible in the maya forums, but that's as far as the artist gets. So they bask in the compliments for a while and then go on to create another head. Some folks never seem to get the whole thing done. They are usually the ones who look down on those of us who do. At any rate, if I make money great, right now I'm just into learning and having fun with it.
Marque

What drives me insane with any app Maya / Motion Builder, Poser or any app.

Is Character will not bend realistically with rigs.

Now if you morphs every joint then ya can get realistic bends but it takes a long long time.

Sorta like V4.

Eventually they well have a layered meshes a skin mesh over top a base mesh.

I seen the early stages of a Maya plug like this a while back,it looked promising.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

RorrKonn, have you seen stuff like this before?
http://jhaywood.com/croiProjectArm05.htm

That is Max 5, old school,that is just the biceps,shoulders would have had 10 bones with a few points attached to them just to get the shoulder to bend half way correctly.at the time of Max 5 bet there was a rig plugs that had weights.

Max 9 probably has weights built in.

But even weights do not help much with a body builders shoulders and hips.

Morphs are the only way to get each muscle to been 2/3's the way correctly.

It is just beyond rigs to do muscles correctly.

There are around 20 muscles in a shoulder a lone all moving a little differently.

No way you are going to get one bone to move all 20 muscles correctly.

Until a bunch of Programmers & Doctors get together.

And codes a app 10*'s more advanced then any thing on the market to date.

We are never going to have a 3D app that Moves human muscles correctly.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

Hi RorrKonn

Been hanging around a bit and I believe that you will probably get your wish sooner than you think.

I picked up Daz Studio and the FBX export a while back and I’ve been running a few tests to see how useful it would be to me.

Based on your notion that its not possible to get a rigged and properly deforming character out of Poser here are a few examples of Victoria 4 animated in Motion Builder and rendered in Max.

There are a few issues that I’m not ready to comment on but the results so far have been very positive.

The specification was to take a Daz3D model as purchased and move it through a pipeline with out modification and maintain the original usability. Very primitive work but from Daz Studio to Max to Motion Builder and Back to Max took a total of 45 minutes or less excluding rendering time.      

http://www.3d-frankiev.com/OutBox/vic4test.rar

http://www.3d-frankiev.com/OutBox/vic4test2.rar

Also I did a key frame morph test as well once again based on the same specifications. Total work time 8 to ten hours excluding render.

http://www.3d-frankiev.com/OutBox/havefun.mov

Every thing was done using a base three point lighting set up and the scan line render.

Excellent Video's,As good as I have seen out of LW,Max,C4D,Maya,XSI.

But, there is always a but is there not there.I hate the buts.

But there no better then I have seen.

It is not Poser it is any app in existence LW,Max,C4D,Maya,XSI etc etc that can not move a body builder realistically with out morphing.

And we are talking a lot of morphing.

It is not very practical to try and spend that much time on morphs.

So we use rigs cause we do not have 10 life times to make a 3 minutes Video.

Not even ILM,Pixar etc etc or any and the Studios have I even seen them try to mimic a realist human.

Pixar only does cartoons.

LOTR ah I forgot him name,the little deformed human that looks like a monster.

called the ring precious.bit the dudes finger off LOL I done forgot all the characters names.

Anyways that is the closest I have seen a big studio try to due it's not nudity but a 3D humans body not covered in cloths.but he was not human did not move like a human.

The Kingdome of Heaven had some 3D Characters dressed all in cloths that there face looked realistic for 90 frames and not much movement.

In theory ya could morphs a body builder to move correctly but if he big studios are not even going to try it.we must be crazy to try it,LOL

But Poser, D/S Artist seems to be the only ones pushing for realist 3D Characters bodies head to toes.

So there for I am camped out here to get educated :)

Any ways i imagine ILM gets 100's of Video's like yours every day.

There all = to each other.How do that pick who to hire ?

If you gave then a Video of a body builder moving corectly,some thing thay have not even done them selfs.

and can make the morphs body builder as fast as a rigged charater.

Bet that would stand out to them.

So all ya need to do to rule Hollywood is code a app that make characters even body builder move realistically.

and make the characters ready to move in a few hours.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

Ahhh I see where you’re going. What you’re talking about is cutting edge stuff.

I can’t speak for the other programs that you mention but recently a couple of tools have been add to Max that will make body dynamics possible, for that program, in the near future.

Skin Morph Modifier:

Is a modifier that allows the deforming of a mesh based on the rotation of a joint controller and the set position is morph based on the position it is set and the completion of the rotation. Of course we are back to the “but” of the morphing idea.

But.

Skin Wrap Modifier.

Is a modifier that allows a mesh to be bound to a sub-surface object that overrides the skinning solution that has been applied or even driven by a sub-surface skin as you mentioned.

With the skin morpher you can now build highly accurate muscles at the element level that behaves as by design with out having to depend on the limited ability of the rig. Once you have all your muscles behaving properly as individual groups you can “wrap” your skin around the entire frame.

 Between the two it is now very possible to create a muscle system that has the same dynamics as a human being that has been rejected in the past as it was to complicated and expensive a process that really had no audience impact.

If you’re interested I did do a tutorial that demonstrates a very basic muscle design using Max.http://www.3d-frankiev.com/maxtuts/max8_video_tutorials.htm

But if your really interested in the roll of human dynamics in a production environment then the person to watch in that area would be Paul Neale at PEN Productions.

http://paulneale.com/3Dimages/ogre/ogreRig.htm

He has been doing some amazing work in the area of accurate character development and has a list of film and television credits that you might want to check out. I’ve seen his work on the Dresden Files and it’s amazing stuff. 

Also another place to check out.

http://www.cgcharacter.com/

A rather limited solution based on the technical factors to pull off a complete solution but it does demonstrate the possibility of human dynamics becoming a standard rather than working with a limited control system and then fixing the problems for the shot afterwards.

How does this affect Poser? Well I don’t what to get into that Dodge verse Ford argument but it “seems” to me that Poser is a platform that is used by those that don’t want to be involved in the technical aspects and requirements yet want to produce visually appealing images. For them it’s just a matter of time before human dynamics is included in the box as CG graphics as a whole has always been driven towards a realistic and accurate real world representation inside a world of fantasy.

And of course:

There will always be the but. ;)

Quote - Ahhh I see where you’re going. What you’re talking about is cutting edge stuff.

 

I can’t speak for the other programs that you mention but recently a couple of tools have been add to Max that will make body dynamics possible, for that program, in the near future.

 

Skin Morph Modifier:

 

Is a modifier that allows the deforming of a mesh based on the rotation of a joint controller and the set position is morph based on the position it is set and the completion of the rotation. Of course we are back to the “but” of the morphing idea.

 

But.

 

Skin Wrap Modifier.

 

Is a modifier that allows a mesh to be bound to a sub-surface object that overrides the skinning solution that has been applied or even driven by a sub-surface skin as you mentioned.

 

With the skin morpher you can now build highly accurate muscles at the element level that behaves as by design with out having to depend on the limited ability of the rig. Once you have all your muscles behaving properly as individual groups you can “wrap” your skin around the entire frame.

 

Ah! Thanks for vringing that up Frankie :)
I remember reading about something like that few months ago, but couldn't remember enough buzzwords to google it, and even though I have and use Max, it's not for biped rigging... 
Looks interesting... LOL, maybe when I retire I'll have time to tackle it.

I recently began working on a what I would consider a medium-sized scene using and Silo, Z-Brush, Photoshop, and Carrara Studio. I built and textured everything in the scene, including the male and female characters. It's taken three months to complete it, render it, and do the postwork.
If I spent as much time on a single render using poser I'm sure the results could be as good, or better.

Hello friends,

I am always trying to stay away from that kind of discussions about which 3D software is the "best" - especially on forums like cgtalk.

Well, as I Vue D'esprit user I can say same thing happened to me too. I posted my work to some forums and get insulting feedback because I noted that I used Vue.

Now Industrail Light & Magic used Vue on Deaman's Chest and every shutted their big mounth about it. CGtalk had to open a section for the software  and Gnomon prepared a basic training DVD for Vue.

Same will happen to Poser too. People getting tired about extremely complex interfaces.

I learned Maya - actaully after a year, still learning. But when I need figures to me scenes I am still using Poser. Also I still couldn't figure out everything about organic human head and body modeling. And I just bought "Secrets Of Poser Experts" book and after I saw the work there I decided to use Poser more...

I also used Poser on a musicians Video too

http://artofkerem.sitesled.com/isis.htm

Because we needed a female character and I am the only 3D guy on the team and I need to "solve" this. So what's important here is the result not the tool...

i was reading an article in 3D World magazine about "Budget 3D films" and one of the films in production the principle software used was Maya, Cinema 4D and Poser. so Poser will inevitably make its way more into the professional ranks all in due time

There are some very bad ideas that have taken root in Poser:

1: Excessively high rez figure models with bad topology.

2: A fetish for excessively high rez textures when they aren't really necessary.

3: The concept of conforming clothing. Clothed figures should be clothed figures and then you just pop on the head of your choice just like you do the hair figure/prop of your choice.

The program itself is awesome as a character creation/scene setup app, just a few very bad ideas in the content/implementation. I'm sure there are others. I see some steps in the right direction. Apollo is the most excellent recent example.

An extension of your second point fls13.

Super mega hyper realistic textures that are simply hi-res photos pasted onto UV maps - ignoring the material room and all it's node treasures.

It's like painting human features onto a plastic doll. It wouldn't matter how great an artist you are, it will never look 'real'.

ClawShrimp,

    I saw a documentary about the Newtsuit and noticed that it's constructed similarly to the Apollo arm/shoulder rigging of Apollo. Great minds thinking alike or coincidence? Regardless, it's outside the box thinking and Poser does need more of that.

   As far as sites like cgsociety, I've found some really talented pros do hang there, but there are also a lot of folks who just want to model their own characters from scratch and do a damn fine job of it. Haven't found that site elitist at all. Hell, they have a Blender forum.

Quote - Gah! Am I the only one who does this just cuz its fun and I like it?!

Anymore? Probably. :) Wasn't always this way, but now.........it's all about being a merchant, or how many views and accolades you get. If anyone has the audacity to critique a pic honestly....massive shit storm insues. And be careful saying your happy just having fun.....if you're not in with the "gotta sell sell sell" clique you're not fitting in with the program don't ya know lol .God I miss the old days when you could tell it like it is around here. When it was about learning the app and sharing with others. And yes.........having FUN!
One of the reasons I bought a DSLR and stopped rendering :)

Would not Post a Poser Render at CGTalk for any reason what so ever. I have. Successfully. People commented a bit on some minor details, but overall the reaction was very favourable. Did I mention it was a Poser render? Nope, because I wanted to see what would happen when folks looked at the final result, not the tool. True, there are times when a Poser render is pretty blatant about being a Poser render, but that's immaterial in my book. All that matters -- here and at any other site -- should be the final work. If people find out after the fact that it's Poser, they seem pleasantly surprised, which is as it should be. Look at it this way: I used to do work that exclusively used the P4 guy, and folks were convinced it was Michael. It all came down to the texturing I made for it and the morphs I'd constructed, but under it alll, it was still the P4 guy, polygon-created eyebrows and all. But the Michael snobs were sometimes amazed that I could mimic (or exceed) their favourite toy. It's all in the tools. 'Nuff said.

Quote - > Quote - Gah! Am I the only one who does this just cuz its fun and I like it?!

 

Anymore? Probably. :) Wasn't always this way, but now.........it's all about being a merchant, or how many views and accolades you get. If anyone has the audacity to critique a pic honestly....massive shit storm insues. And be careful saying your happy just having fun.....if you're not in with the "gotta sell sell sell" clique you're not fitting in with the program don't ya know lol .God I miss the old days when you could tell it like it is around here. When it was about learning the app and sharing with others. And yes.........having FUN!
One of the reasons I bought a DSLR and stopped rendering :)

I remember those days as well... When I first joined this site, I uploaded some pics had a few people look at them and even got a comment or two on each. I loved that! It wasn't about how many friends I had here, it was about someone actually felt my pics were worth the time to look at and gasp possibly say a few words about. 

I'm not afraid to say I'm just in it for fun, I don't feel the need to sell things. Although, based on this thread, I have started making my own content (skins, backgrounds and still painting hair when I have time :P) but not because I'm looking to break into the art world. I do it because if people sometimes (not always) feel that an image is not as good as another due to it containing nothing but purchased and/or downloaded content, then I'm going to work my hardest on making my images look as best they can with my abilities using what content I'm able to make as well as final composition. 

Someone earlier in this thread had mentioned something along these lines: 

"How is it that you can create a completely original image using content thats made available to the general public and is in hundreds or thousands of other images?"

Its for that reason that most of the things I do make as content, from this point on will not be available for everyone. Call me selfish, but if a girl (like me :P) wants to be original, then she's gotta start somewhere.

As for the comment about the 'super photo-realistic' skins...
I think they're great and I think they make an image really -pop- but its not always necessary. I use Aiko most of the time and she's hardly the most 'realistic' of the models. Since most of those types of textures are made using photos of real people and I don't know anyone who wants to be a 'skin model' and I'm not really into setting up my digi-cam and being one myself, guess that leaves me with my painting skills. I think artists who paint things from scratch should be given just as much praise as those who went 'super-mega photo-realistic with enough creases and wrinkles to make a raisin proud.'

Just my thoughts...

Ana

I do it for "fun".  I do it because I have a burning need to express myself on paper - artistically - whatever.  I suck at drawing (but not at creating) and these applications give me the ability.  

I may not be a great or even a good artist - but the world sees with spider eyes and damn it I have a lens too.  

I dont care about using other peoples work either - but I do have a personal rule to put my own spin on it.  As of yet I don't think I have used a single thing without altering it in some way.

As far as friends go, well I personally like to make them.  It's nice to meet people with similar interests.  Im not about the popularity though - 2 good friends to me are worth a million so/so ones.

I don't expect to ever see my work hanging in a gallery.  I highly doubt I'll ever manage to sell anything (Im too prone to giving stuff away if I ever get that far).  My biggest hope is that some time in the future, my grandchildren, or great-grandchildren will be able to look at stuff I created, or wrote and get a little glimpse of who I was.  If that hope is too lofty - so be it. 

You know I an extremly new to the 3d art relm I have been looking at getting into it for about 3 years and couldnt afford to do so. I am currently serving over seas in iraq wich is beside the point here but will make sense in a minute. I got into this because while Im in my downtime here I have nothing to do except for miss my loved ones back home. I just got poser 7 after looking and fiddeling with daz. I personally feel and would have to agree with Anasta!! I think its about the fun and for people to turn there noses up at the rest of us trying to have a good time with our art work is ludicris. Art is art weather you take a symple program and pose a pre fabricated charicter into a scene, splat some paint on a canvas or go all out in the rediculously expensive programs out there. How does it make you feel that is the question? Does it relax you and give you somthing to to take your mind off the stresses of everyday life. If it does then what does it matter what everyone else thinks!!! Who cares if you can recognize the character. Sheesh!!!!!!

I just watched Pirates of the Caribbean, At Worlds End.

Killer Video.

Killer zBrush Portrait of Captain Jack Sparrow.

http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=036819

So what does Captain Jack Sparrow do ?

He does what makes him happy.

So I guess the moral of the story is do what ever makes you happy and don't worry about what others think.

Some will love you some will hate you.

All that matters is I do what I believe in.

So let them rag me, hate me.

Don't care.

D/S,Blender,Gimp is all Free.

@FrankieV Those are some kool tools.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

ok, let me, once again, clarify a couple of things.

the point isn't about making money.  the point is about getting feedback from a group of people who don't have the eyes of a poser artist, and who are often used to a certain quality of work.  the point is about participating in a much larger world of computer graphics than a few poser sites.  i haven't been asking could someone get a job doing poser work, since i've already seen people say they've done so, i've seen sites of poser artists list their commercial work, and i've seen professional poser work in the comic shop (john van fleet and a poster for brian haberlin's neobeauties).  as far as i can tell, the fact of the matter is a lot of the people paying for illustrations are mostly people in marketing who have an eye for gloss and slick and an interest in fast, good, and cheap.   and no interest at all in the process as long as it doesn't involve trouble or cost for them.

other communities, that's different.  on the one hand, it means that people who aren't accustomed to (and therefore at least partially blind to) vicky's myriad joint problems can look at your work, or that people who don't have only the daz' meshes as their notion of 3d children can critique your images of kids.  i can't tell you how many times i've seen something land here and have people just lavish it with praise, me think "nice, but a bit risque," then have my boyfriend see it over my shoulder and go, "oh, my god!  what the hell is she wearing!  who put her in that?!"  in terms of appearance and what an image says to people, the norm here is not necessarily the norm for your average citizen. 

sometimes, it's good to have an outside opinion to get some perspective. and it can be great to hear from people whose expectations are higher than those within the poser community.

on the other hand, it's not helpful if  they're seeing only what they expect to see, and not what's there. lots of people care about process to greater and lesser degrees, with biases in different places.  understanding where those biases are is key, in my experience, to interpretting the feedback you get.  if people say, "stiff and lifeless," but they actually mean, "i can tell that's a daz figure," then you know you don't need to work on your posing abilities but your morphing or your painting abilities.  if people say, "you should learn to model your own stuff, that's not unique enough, " but what they actually mean is, "i spent a month making a figure almost identical to that one, and years learning how to,  and you should have to work just as hard," then you know to ignore them unless you actually have to work with them.

so most people's reactions here have been helpful.  i have to say, i still see a bias, but a waning one.  even what people have posted here tells me that.  people don't feel it's "fair" to judge something just on results.  and while there's a concern about short cuts to effective or realistic depictions of humans, no one seems to be concerned with short cuts to skin shaders, types of  lighting, fluid dynamics, particle systems, draped cloth or any of the myriad aspects of 3d that have become more automated.  for instance, poser is a "toy" because it doesn't have global illumination, instead of other apps being a "cheat" because you don't have to script your own.  so, imho, i see an interesting slant.  you can take short cuts on most things and not say anything about it, except for figure modeling. and then, you can take short cuts, but you better say what they are.

if Rorr Konn was right about me asking "why," i could philosphize on the need to see every human as incredibly unique and impossible to codify, while it's fine to autogenerate countless species of plant life.  but why hasn't ever been my question.  what and how much has been, and i've gotten some answers on that.

personally, like i said, i find the whole bit about judging "process" a slippery slope.  it's like saying i should care whether someone made their special effects in cg or with actual models.  or used green screen or actually built the scene.  or decided to make paints from scratch or bought them.  unless i'm actually trying to duplicate the process, i don't personally see the point in trying to figure out if something is toon shaded maya or hand drawn or a mixture of the two.  i don't see a reason to say computer coloring is fine in comics, but 3d is a cheat that should be avoided.    judging process always seems to me to be even more subjective than judging results (it always seems like the comparison point is one's own process), and it appears to me to hold one back to the process one knows instead of opening one to the processes one doesn't know.  it especially seems to hold effort in a higher esteem than efficacy, which i just personally need to avoid.

but that's just me.  most people feel differently.  knowing the extent to how they feel differently is important in interpretting their feedback.

as for caring what anyone else thinks, if i didn't care at all about that then i wouldn't publish my work online or anywhere else.   the only reason, in my opinion, to publish artwork rather than keep it to one's self is to create a reaction in someone else.  the whole act of publishing, releasing it to the public, is simply sharing artistic expression with other people.  if it makes 0 difference whether anyone else sees it or not, why share it? that isn't to say i hang on every person's word, or need to please everyone.  or even that the reaction i (or anyone else) want(s) is as simple as praise. 

mostly, as far as i can see, publishing art is about communication.  there's a difference between saying what you believe in, and not caring if you're either unintelligible or saying something other than what you mean.  or even just having someone tell you how you could communicate more clearly.    i've seen and even experienced the beauty of having an editor.  same ideas, just much more clearly expressed.  i don't just want to do what i like, i want to do what i like and grow within it.  learning doesn't happen in a vacuum, and neither does growth.  i don't want to look back 5 years from now and see myself at exactly the same place artistically.  now that's just me.  i'm certainly not trying to tell anyone else how to live their lives.  but it has nothing to do with liking my creations, nothing to do with pleasing others, and nothing to do with following or forging my own path. 

a good teacher can help you acheive the goals you set for yourself.  a good community can do the same thing.  some communities are good for some people, and not for others.  i wanted simply to begin to get a handle on how good non-poser communities were at helping poser artists grow, and if the bias i kept witnessing both in forums and in site rules kept most non-poser communities from being helpful.   i'm seeing a "no," but with the added codicil of, "better make it damn good work, not median for that site."

OK I believe its time for me to be honest here.

When I first joined this site, I only knew about Poser. I come from a virtual community that makes 3D objects and such that is uploaded to a virtual mall and sold for virtual money. I had learned that several of our community creators were using a program called 'Poser' to make this absolutely amazing artwork that everyone wanted to collect. I wanted to be a part of that. 

That was about 5 years ago. 

When I first started using Poser, I had absolutely no idea what I was doing but because I'm extremely stubborn, I stuck with it. I remember uploading to that site some really horrible images and getting crazy amount of love for them because it was a community that I've lived in for years (8 years at this point) but I knew I didn't compare to what others did. That was the point where I joined this site for the freebies and to get critique on what I made. 

I have a friend who once told me, "I upload to renderosity for artistic value but I upload to cybertown for ego." If I was asking for fluffy comments and mucha love I'd just upload all my stuff to cybertown but to be honest, I spend more of my time and attention here because it helps me grow as an artist. 

With that taste of my background, I give you this:

From my personal experience, Poser is an incredible program that can create wonderful artwork that I have fully gone (virtually) broke trying to collect. When it comes right down to the general public... those who don't know as much about CG and 'big-ticket' apps and all the other drama that is involved in creating 3d artwork... they're really only concerned about what it looks like, not how it was made.

This thread, while being very informative, has kinda shut down alot of motivation towards making new things in Poser. By asking specifically if people feel Poser is looked down on by other app users, it makes those of us that still mainly use this app feel 'less than worthy' and is really a depressing subject. 

I know it was not intended that way but think of the newbies. The people who are going to help our artistic community to grow. You were a newbie once, do you remember how it feels?

I have posted WIP's for help in the app's forms but I have never posted any of my Art in the CGTalk or any of the big tickets Final Renders Forms.

I did inter The renders that I had the TS meshes in them at TrueSpace.Image contest.

http://www.caligari.com/Gallery/ImagesGallery/default.asp?SubCate=Images

I knew they would not make the gallery thou.

I just wanted Roman to see what I made with his TrueSpace.

All my renders sux and I know it.

I like to model that is what I 3D for.

But it is fun to render stuff now and then.

but I have 20 renders and 2000 meshes.

But I do not spend a lot of time on my renders.

Do not spend the $$$ on the best render engines.

Characters are faster to model then a car motors.

But characters take a lot of time to get to bend 1/2 way correctly.

I have spent most of my 3D time learning to get characters to bend correctly.

If I get a poser character made that bends all right I hope some of you all will make some nice render with the character.

The Fab 5  app's have a lot of bias between them.

a million threads this vs that app.

a million threads of my app's better then your app.

and there is bias between renders and modelers.

the modelers go you would not have nothing to render if there where no meshes.

the renders go you would have no use for ya meshes if you did not render them.

There is a huge deference between hobbyist forms and pro forms also.

hobbyist forms there hobbyist doing this for fun and enjoyment if they achieve perfection then kool.

pros half to achieve perfection they are under enormous pressure to achieve perfection.

any WIP I have ever posted got critiqued with a fine tooth comb and any flaws no matter how small was commented on.

you need thick skin and can not take it personally.

Pros use poser as a plug max 4,5 had a poser plug called character studio that was poser 4 meshes rigged in max format.

it is a fact that poser characters are some of the best there is.

u can buy meshes at sites like http://www.turbosquid.com/

very few of the pros make every thing that is in there commercial renders.

they do not have the time.

They pay a lot at turbo and if they can't find what they need.

They will pay you $3000 for a car or a character provided you can deliver it yesterday.

Now what is the deference between turbosquid and renderosity other then the price ? none.

One of the best car modelers AndyK started in TrueSpace went to C4D.

Anyways if you want to grow as a artist you need to be critiqued.

but you half to be willing to be critiqued.

I will critic one of my renders that every thing in it I done so I would not hurt any ones feelings.

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_3DArt/3D_Damned.htm

1 the chain is flat spotted top left.

2 the bump map suxs.

3 the lighting suxs.

If I posted this in the CGTalk gallery I would expect to be told it suxs.

I enjoy TrueSpaces,Posers, CGTalk, zBrush etc etc Galleries.

Is there a deference between the galleries ?

The philosophies on the deferent forms verys day buy day case the artist very day buy day.

but the Constance has always been 1000 threads about what we feel 10 threads about 3D.

Where human after all.

if ya start a thread and asked how they feel about this,ya get a lot of responses.

if ya start a thread and ask how do I do this, ya get a few responses.

any form in any app.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

Anasta - actually, i'd rather know as a newbie what i'd face than after spending 5 years learning an app.  i think it's a disservice to newbies to not let them know that if they venture out of the warm and fuzzy realm of poserdom they're going to face harsh critics, trolls, and even some great artists who just plain have a bias.   i think it's much more disheartening to face it without warning, and it creates the situation some have been going on about- poser artists who expect more praise than the average user and are less receptive to criticism than the average user on a more broadly defined art site.  also, i think it's more heartening to know when it's not your work that inspired the term "crap," "cheat," or other demeaning terms i've seen associated with poser art elsewhere.  

but then, i also don't think you should lie to kids about the world just because it might make them sad to know the truth.  i think truth will always make people stronger, not weaker, and that hiding the truth from people only makes them weaker.  i don't think ignorance is something to be cherished or cultivated.

so i can't say i'm worried about newbies' reaction to this thread, or veterans for that matter.  i can see your point, and why you might see things that way (and totally respect that), i just feel differently.

RorrKonn - that's my favorite image (so far) in your gallery.  i think the elements and how you combined them are awesome.

You know Im not saying I will never venture out there and try to utilize some of the software out there such as maya ect.but right now I can't and am happy with what I can do here!!! Further more this is what makes no sense to me what are people who are against the program apperantly or have issues doing in a poser forum???? hmmm? sounds to me like there are some bored people out there just wanting to come and stir the pot alittle!!  Now Im a very outspoken and somtimes maybe too out spoken person and maybe a little to blunt at times and since I am new here I am going to bite my tounge on alot I have to say because I respect some of the people here!!  I find it funny how ever that there are so many people out there trying to use the left side of there brian to do things that are generally done in the right!!!

Rorrkon I completly agree about being thick skined!! I welcome critique of my work I have no problems with that!!! It makes you better but I also think one who critiques the work if they are going to say the negatives they should say the positves and should also maybe because they have more expierience offer a little advice or knowledge!! I realize it is an imperfect world so you can't expect that from everyone!!  Now could it be that there are people out there just wanting to keep the potential down just because they see abillity that scares them!! They want to keep them down so they dont have the competition somday!!! It's like that every where you go though  In my civilian job there is alot of that!!!  I am grateful to the modelers out there who model and put there stuff up because I dont have the time or money to do it on my own right now!!! maybe some day I will!!
My only render I have on here I used alot of great models done by other people!! I didnt credit it because Im new and havnt learned all the proper edicate on this site yet but with time. I consider my self a sponge and am always willing to learn and not affraid to look for it or ask?
So to every one out there who helps I say a huge thankyou!! because they are doing  a great service to me right now weather they realize it or not!!

This debate has been around for years. And back in the poser4 days I would agree with the opinon, but toaday its a diferent story, Poser has been used in MANY mainstream places. Its an excellant application for creating quick simple animations and imagery, In the right users hands its versatile and can create a whole realm of possibilities for a reasonable price.

Poser , as a rendering tool, is great, but thats what it is, It doesn't model, it doesnt create movie quality animation ( Im talking hollywood here). BUT it does allow somoene to learn the basics and tinker and create decent quality animations, and with post work, Excellant quality still renders. 

Why is is so often frowned upon, aloofness  and fear , thats why. Why use an application that only cost $250 dollars and can run on the average desktop to create , when you can use a $5000 application that requires high end systems and 30 man hours to create the same image? Those high end apps are the status symbols of those companies , look at us we use MAYA. etc. 

Poser has been breaking ground though, http://www.e-frontier.com/go/poser/stories shows the progress of Poser today and its capabilities. Is it the industry standard, NO! why. well would you want to be the one to say, hey can we scrap our 10 yerars of investment in this this $5000 dollar application , and buy a $250.00 app that does the same thing, OH BTW, we can lay off a few artists as well because we really wont need as many to do what we do anymore. So there is no way these high end artists will accept this application, because then it will soon be learned that not quite as many of them are needed. Who wants to slit their own throat. Accepting Poser as a capable applicaiton will do just that.

mertext - that's why i don't think it's good for me (again, not trying to make choices for others) as an artist to care about someone else's process unless i can learn from it.  i noticed there's a some  of talk among cg artists about getting respect from fine artists.   and references to the same debate between traditional photographers and photoshop jockeys.  and it goes back further to painters and photographers.  it's easy to get wed to a process, and not be open to change that's more efficient and cost-effective because it comes with a new process and a different creative experience.  and a good healthy does of fear that one's own talent and skills that were so prized aren't actually so valuable any more.  fear isn't beneficial to creativity.  nor is jealousy or self-righteousness.

Quote -
This thread, while being very informative, has kinda shut down alot of motivation towards making new things in Poser. By asking specifically if people feel Poser is looked down on by other app users, it makes those of us that still mainly use this app feel 'less than worthy' and is really a depressing subject. 

I know it was not intended that way but think of the newbies. The people who are going to help our artistic community to grow. You were a newbie once, do you remember how it feels?

Remember that this was a discussion of why the "industry Standard" applications look down on poser. but Poser wasn't really created to be an Industry standard tool. Can you learn the basics from Poser. YES! Is it always used. NO! Poser allows you to set up rigging, lighting just like in other applications, its just that many users just use the prefabbed items they installed into the application. But somone had to amke the prefabs. Yes my niche isnt in rendering , I use 3DStudio Max for making props , clothes and other items FOR Poser. Why , because its a fun app that allows me to create and make wonderful images in my spare time as a hobby. Do I anticipate becoming the next ILM prospect , NO. Or to have Pixar beating on my door wanting me to come work for them, NO. But I do expect to have fun continuing to create what I want. I have the added advantage of having access to some of the tools out there to create what I need. And the benifit to a community like Renderosity , is we as artists often work together to help each other out, something you WONT find as often in themainstream application communities. If you as an artist need a certain item for your scene, this is one place you can go and say "anyone know where i can get a..." and you will either get a link to a resource , be it free or a small fee (small as in compared to maintream apps price) or somone will pop up and offer to MAKE it for you for nothing, Countless times I have spoeken to somone in chat here who needed something simple, and I would pop into Max , whip it up and send it off to them same day. You will not find that type of community support for the other type of applicaitons.

So do NOT be discouraged because you have chosen to learn poser, be glad, because you are a memeber of one of the best 3d communities available.

Mertext that is what im talking about right on!! You are the type of people that I am glad I have the opertunity to meet in places like this!!   Someday I do hope to be able to produce models for somebody and give back to this community of wich I dont have alot to offer to right now!!

It is hard to say some things with out hurting some one feelings or getting them mad at you.

but I am going to try and explain this in a nice way.

You can not replace any of the Fab 5 app's with Poser.

I like poser but I accept Poser for what it is.

I just have Poser 5 will get 7 soon

But Poser 5's shadows are ruff.

when I have poser open along with C4D zBrush etc etc

half to be careful with Poser or my PC freezes,this is a pain.

Poser is not all that stable it crashes.

Takes for ever to load a character in Poser

Can not load a city scene with cars and characters in Poser much less animate it.

Poser work space is small.

Poser renders slow,do not know of a renderfarm for Poser.but with it's instability would not even try it.

Posers dynamic hair is not the best.

Poser dynamic hair,cloth takes for ever to render.

Poser has monumental high Polycount.

Poser does not support Sub division LW calls it SupPatch,C4D Calls it HyperNURBS.

C4D is stable never crashes.

But they just got dynamic cloths and hair.

C4D rigs are not the best.

For Characters you would not replace C4D with XSI either.

C4D 8 and earlier did not support nGones witch was unreal to me.

I like C4D 9.C4D ,C4D is getting better and getting support for characters.

XSI had the best sub division system and killer tools for characters but there UI is old,kills me.

Not sure they have a forest.

Max crashes, u need to spend a lot on plugs.

LW's divided in to two seperate app's

Maya does not have the best polygone tools.

None of the Fab 5 app's are even close to perfect,eather.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

pardon, not to disagree in the slightest, but isn't the polycount the figures, not the app?  i mean, apollo is quite reasonable.  in a related issue, could you explain the functional difference between smoothing and subdivision? i'm curious.  i'm sure it exists but,  like the difference between global illumination and ibl, i need it explained to me.

actually, i've been thinking of a separate thread.  i've definitely reached the limits of what poser 6 can do for me.  i had been thinking p7 until pjz99, who had been saying great things, just gave up on firefly.  so it's time to stop spending on content and start saving for another app.  i've been thinking of getting people's opinions on midrange (priced) apps.  c4d is definitely out of that category (sniff, sniff- it's the most interesting to me).  do you think it's worth it to ask here? 

on they other hand, maybe i should just use d|s, since i'm interested in painting, too.  but i love sss, and  playing with lights and materials, so i don't just want to paint over everything.   i'm not sure what to do.  i'd be very interested in advice.