....that hope someone here can answer for me, without getting offended and starting a major war. What creative fulfillment (sp) is achieved by using someone elses figure, hair, light, texture, background model(s) and pose, and then putting your name on it? Honestly, what is so exciting about this? Almost every single post in the Poser Gallery has a who's who of names below it as "credits" for actually creating 99% of the picture that these things are attached to. What artistic talent is being expressed with this? Isn't this basically the same thing as taking a magazine, cutting out a model, cutting out clothing from different pages and then pasting it all on a photograph someone else took? Maybe I am wrong, but it would seem to me more people here should spend more time creating there own textures and models, and stop spending there money having someone else do the work for them. I that most of the actual fun of creating from scratch is being missed.

Hmm... Well you could say the same thing about Photographers. They capture the moment, but don't actually "create" anything in the scene. So couldn't that be seen as composition art? or illustration, rather? I tend to agree with you on light, poses and dial parameters easily accessed within Poser.

"Isn't this basically the same thing as taking a magazine" Nope but some do do that and call it Collage, including some very famous ones, who did "the snail" ? ;o)....if you have a dvd player hire "final fantasy" or "the mummy" and watch the extras, you'll find the movie is made up of 4 basic elements, texture artists, modelers, lighting, and animators, to create a still image you need 3 of those skills, the 4th is replaced by a layout artist (if you like)...i think the short version is some of us make models some of us make art some do both, and some make beauty how they do it doesn't matter as long as it touchs someone......Steve

Damn Steve that was Good! I really liked that.........

More like people working together to make art. For example, In a movie someone is in charge of lighting, camera angles, and so on. I agree with some of what your saying... cant imagine buying poses or only clicking the render button being. Somebody is making all this stuff though. I've read a lot of posts like this lately. I dont really care what people do. Believe it or not some people dont want to do any work but take credit. But some cant do it all. So they get help and concentrate on what there good at. All this stuff takes allot of time. Some are just learning and experimenting here. Go to some other sites with galleries and you might see way more original stuff though.

That's all fine and good, and really nice excuses, but not the same thing I am talking about. For movies, these are professionals that are hired to work together to create something original, using original components. Most collages I've seen are junk and so no talent, so I won't even og into that. Most the work in the Poser Gallery, a lot of which have the same credits being given over and over again, have nothing to do with originality. They are taking a female figure created by someone else, putting skin texture, lights and backgrounds around it that others cerated and acting like it is some type of original creation. My point being, once or twice is fine, but after awhile it just seems silly to me. Granted, this is just my opinion, and won't alter what others do, but it would seem that there time and money would be better spent learning to use a modeling app and photoshop so they could actually "create" something of there own.

To each their own, I guess. Some people can't make models, some can't texture, some can't create good lighting, and so forth - plus any combination of the foregoing. However, I'd venture the one thing everyone has in common here is the desire to realise a mental image, and find some way to bring it to fruition. To use myself as an example... I don't (yet) have the necessary skills to make models, other than simple props, so I tend to use pre-made models. As for textures, I like to create my own - or at least adapt existing ones creatively. I'll generally make as much of my pictures from scratch as my skills allow. When it comes to posing I'll use my own poses most of the time, lighting the same. If I'm working for a client, I'll use whatever is to hand because I don't see the point in reinventing the wheel when there's a quick solution to hand. So yeah, I take your point about the fun of creating from scratch - but not everyone has the time or skills or patience to do that.

Well, you have to look at it this way, is it your painting if you bought the brushes instead of cutting the hairs from a camel, bought a canvas instead of stretching the canvas and then prepping it, or buying your oils instead of digging up the various components to make your oils? These are simply tools of the trade. Now, so some people purchase various "tools" for 3d art, i.e. characters (vicky), props and textures. Is it art if all someone does is stick these pieces together and then press render? What about the decisions as to what "tools" to use to develope the scene? The Point of View and what lighting to use? I've seen pieces of "ART" here at renderosity that I personally feel is a waste of pixels. I've also seen oil paintings with a big red dot painted in the center sell for $$$$$ as "ART". What I find funny are how some people here are "Traditionalist" about post work. To each their own.

Some of us aren't very talented in textures, etc., but we have pictures that we want to create. My talents are in writing, (at least, I hope I have writing talent!) but I have scenes in my mind's eye that I'd love to see. Even though I use mostly canned stuff (and I am trying to learn how to model), I consider my scenes to be my own creations. You could give 10 people the same set of items and end up with 10 very different pictures. Arrangement and composition are also artistic elements. To look at it another way: is a director less of an artist because he's on the other end of the camera? (Before you say, "Yes," imagine a film done by Steven Spielberg, as compared to Stanley Kubric or Ed Wood.) Cheers!

SamTherapy, I understand what you are saying. And I am not trying to tell people what to do and "downing" anyone for doing it. But I truly think that, with a few exceptions, everyone of the people doing what I am talking about could, if they wanted to, create these things on there own. Thgeisel did. It would just seem to me that after awhile people would get tired of having to have there work flow decided be someone elses creativity. I would think that they would say, "I want to create this certain look, and I am tired of waiting for someone else to provide me with the parts, so I will learn to do it myself". Growth is important, but can't be achieved in a vaccum.

BillyM67, being rather judgmental, aren't you? Not everyone finds doing everything from scratch all that much fun, nor do I think it is fair to desdain those who don't have your ability or time to work on models from scratch.

Your question has been addressed both civily and uncivily at various times throughout the history of Renderosity and other Poser forums. Checking back in the archives might be fruitful. One search word you might try is "Barbie" since those critical of the approach of using other peoples work say it is like playing with dolls. Clearly you have your idea of "fun" and perhaps you should simply respect other peoples' idea of fun too (I'm not saying you aren't showing respect by asking the question, I'm trying to help you see other perspectives). I like to make my own bread. I might criticize others who don't bake from scratch (using a mix, or store made) as missing most of the actual fun of bread, that is the baking from scratch. The premix camp might argue that for them the fun is not in the kneeding of dough, but in having and eating the results. Another analogy might be that the actual fun of computers is not in using Word, Excel, Wordperfect, Quattro Pro, but in the programming of those programs. Perhaps your argument is not about other useful purposes of Poser, but specific to how people use Poser and then call it "Art" becasue they choose to display their work in the gallery. Well, that brings us to the definition of art. Good luck with that one. I don't consider myself an artist, I use Poser to communicate specific ideas. The extra time it takes to create the model, create the clothing etc. gets in the way, and slows down my communication. Hope my perspective helps.

Depends on how much "from scratch" you want to work from. For some people, creating poses is difficult, beyond them at this point, outside their budget, or too time-constrictive and it's good that there are resources for that. The same goes down the line. What I'd like to see you do is create your own figure from scratch as complex as V2 or V3 with all body parts, 3000 morphs, bones, fixed UV mapping, hires textures, clothes, lights, poses. Get back to me in about 20 years! ;) While were at it, why are you using a 3D graphics program that you didn't write yourself? What creativity is there in using the tools written by someone else? Wait! Shouldn't you be developing your own OS so that you can say that your 3D art has been truly built from scratch by yourself? Even further, you should develope your own form of electronics calculating system (computer). Is the point sinking in yet? :) There are limits to people's skills, finances, and time that are fulfilled by others (Thank the universe!). That's what "teaming up", "community", "commerce", and "free (or not so free) exchange of information and ideas" are about. Do you think every 3D CG movie uses everything from scratch? Most doubtedly. Although a lot is custom, including plugins and software, the process involves dozens, if not hundreds, of people and millions of dollars. Finally, photographers do not (on the whole) create the scene that they are photographing and many artists use photographs as reference or directly. Do models count when painting? Maybe we should only paint human figures from our memories instead. Now, that was just a skirmish. BeatYourSoul

I do not consider myself an artist. I have had no artistic training and by qualifications are all science. history or music based. For me Poser has opened a whole world. For so many years I have had ideas and images in my head but lacked the technical/artistic know-how to get them out - if ya know what I mean! With Poser I can realise my visions. I can never explain how this feels but it feels bloody good! I must admit that I want to create images that are as personalised as possible. It is easy to take stock figures, poses, textures etc and get an instant creation. I am slowly expanding my skills. I have tweaked textures and am now making my own. I have started learning about modelling and animation and even the wonders of focal lengths and such. In time, as I apply more of these skills to my creations then perhaps I will consider myself an artist not an 'artistic assembler'. Poser is many things to many people. This is what it is to me. I enjoy it and that, I believe, is what counts :)

Good points, BillyM67. To be honest, I doubt I'd ever have the time and/or inclination to develop my modelling skills to the degree where I could create satisfactory human figures to use in a 3D application. Does it bother me? Not in the least, they're an archetype - a compositional tool, is all. I regard them in the same way as I use clay for modelling. Anyhow, my answers are probably invalid because I don't regard myself as an artist. Sure, I can paint, draw, sculpt and so forth, but I don't regard a single one of my pictures to contain an ounce of artistic merit. I regard myself as a writer and musician first and foremost, pictures are just for fun. :)

I think this would make a GREAT Poser Forum Challenge. No 2 artists see the same thing the same way. If you give 2 artists the same tools, objects etc. then you will come up with 2 different images, maybe similar but they will be different. I think that seeing a lot of images giving credit to the same people over and over again tells ya that those creators have items that the masses enjoy using. Do I like seeing the same thing over and over again? Most of the time no, however, if I enjoy seeing a particular item, or texture, it is nice to see how others are using it. If you don't like seeing the same thing over and over again, ummmm then why did ya look at um all? One mans garbage is another mans art.

BillyM67, So taking a quick look at the thumbnails in your gallery I see they were done in Bryce? So you did all the modeling, all the lights, all the water etc.? Why ask such a thing when you yourself are guilty of that of which you complain? Please. Marque

Zorares, that is a ridiculous comparision. So you are saying that if I create a totally original piece of art, in say Maya, with only my own textures and models and no outside help whatsoever, I still have to give credit to Alias Wavefront (creators of Maya), Microsoft (creators of Windows XP), Wacom (creators of my graphics tablet) and whoever actually put my PC together? That sounds silly. I could see your point if the texture on the poser figures are being altered, the background models re-textured and manipulated and the paid for poses manipulated, but this is not the case. Therefore, no comparision can be made. Crescent, I understand the point that you making, and I do view directors as artists, but they are always part of a group. They, by the nature of there work, are hired to bring someone elses story to life. To do this they rely on actors to bring this vision alive, which they capture on film. But they do not take 15 other films and splice them together and then call it "E.T." or "Jaws". I appreciate everyone's replies, and I respect your views. I understand that some are not interested in "stretching there boundaries" or in "growing as an artist". That they have a vision, and like fast food, they want now, without being bothered by the details (no disrespect intended). I would just think that the very need for creation that drove them that far would, sooner or later, drive them to want more creative control. So they wouldn't have to say to someone, "I create this. Well, everything but the person, clothes, hair, background, light and pose." In the end, did they really create anything at all? Perhaps, perhaps not. To each his own. Take care, one and all....

Marque, I said I understood why someone might start doing this, but, in the end, I would think it would lead to being more creative. Yes, I used others models for my first pieces posted (not the castel model, that's mine). But, I very rarely use Bryce any longer and, instead, have begun creating with Maya so that I can create totally original works, based soley on my creations (which would be the latest piece I posted today) and brought to life solely by me. Can I create everything I want right now? No. I do not yet have the ability. But, then again, when I was a liitle kid I could draw at first either, but everyone has to start somewhere. Thanks for your reply.

Sorry BillyM67, I don't take this. If you feel more happy to make up meshes and clothes, great, I respect that. I don't have the skills to do so and don't wish to spend time learning. It is also a fundemental right to me. Clothes, props, meshes, lights, etc... All these are tools. If you follow your own steps, then why didn't you make your own modelling software ? And why didn't you make your computer yourself ? I can think of a few sites were people make extraordinary meshes and textures and illustrate them with images on the low level range. Not everyone can do everything. It is not mandatory for someone who would like to be an artist to be Leonardo da Vinci. Great things can be achieved by working together. Rodin would have been much less of an artist without someone who had the skill to properly melt the bronze. Both men were working together to achieve something artistic, each one doing what he was best at. Now, if you are talking about art, it is a matter of personal taste. Many learned people like the collages you despise. What is art to one looks like rubbish to another. And there are those, like me, who are not artists, just hobbyists. They are just trying to do something artistical, and from time to time, one of them succeed. As for originality. It could be said that replicating clothes meshes already existing in reality is a lack of imagination, whereas 3D modelling could give birth to a whole new, imaginative and innovative world. Art doesn't always come from originality. How many thousands of times has Holy Mary been painted/sculpted ? The same person, the same clothes, the same attitutde (more or less) and yet, what a diversity ! What great number of styles ! And what differences between poor artists and geniuses. I can understand that it may be frustrating for someone to work for days on a mesh and then seeing someone who just toggles it for 2 hours getting his 15 minutes of fame for posting it. Yet, you cannot fight the facts : arranging these is an artform, compare it to Nature Morte if you wish (posing an apple and a bucket together and drawing them), hate it if you wish, but you cannot deny that it can bring beauty, which is the definition of an artform, in my opinion. Giving life to inanimate objects / meshes / props is an artform. There is one thing on which I agree with you, though : there are those who post something just to achieve a sort of fame, or just to show what they just have bought. Every community has this kind of guys. We just have to learn to live with them and try to discern art from fake. Lastly, let me hope that my poor english did not betray me. If you find something offensive in the text above, I do apologize : it wasn't my intent. Compiler

"Most collages I've seen are junk and so no talent," Well you just hit the nail on the head there Billy ;o), you expressed an opinion that lots will disagree on, which is in eccense the whole point of this thread, .....to quote Machineclaw coz its so so true "One mans garbage is another mans art. ", but the same could be said in reverse, you just did about collages ;o)......."For movies, these are professionals that are hired to work together to create something original" Nope, i've done a few bits and bobs for movies and stills for big companies and little ones and if they can buy in a model, texture or whatever to save time they will, and besides coz we are not pros we can't do the same ?.....i respect your opinion and you are right BUT so is everyone else, its that kinda subject LOL....Steve

To one and all, thank you for your replies. I do understand what you are all saying. I guess, maybe I was being slightly narrow minded about the subject. I hope no one took offense to anything I posted. Renderosity and groups such as this are fantastic and a pleasure to be a part of. Again, I appreciate the civil and intelligent conversion...take care.

No, you missed my point. I sure wouldn't expect every artist to give credit to the various companies that manufacture their tools. All I was saying is that THESE are the tools of our trade, hobby, whatever. I personally know a fantastic oil painter who simply will not paint anything but his own homemade oils. Are his paitings any better than someone else? When I started with Poser Beta (yes, I was a beta tester), I was looking to use Poser as a tool for modeling to be used in my oil paintings. Poser Beta and Poser v.1 were jokes! Now Poser has bypassed being a simple tool to become it's own medium. My "artistic" work with Poser many years ago was just a passing fancy. Now, thanks greatly to Renderosity, I have not only learned how to use Poser for art, commercial work, etc., but I've expanded into texture development, and simple obj development. While I doubt that I'll ever create a Vicky type character, I do have a goal to make conforming clothes! Why? I can buy all the clothes I want, but because I want to better understand how this works. All in all, (rambling almost over : ) ) the Renderosity galleries are full of Crap! Occassionally I'll find a pearl of something I see as truly artistic (my opinion of what art is of course). How it was created is irrelevant! If you check out my galleries, you may say WOW, you may also say, what a waste of time! Personally, I feel that Andy Warhol was a joke! But some people love his stuff!

Yes indeed, everyone has to start somewhere. Marque

BillyM67, I like what you have mentioned.

I think that Poser5 provides better tools to achieve it.
We could not do too much with Poser4.
I really hope they will fix the problems of Poser5.
I donft know the direction (philosophy) of DAZ Studio.

Oh, BillyM67 - put the pussy among the pigeons here, didn't you!

The basic thing is... It's not important if you understand why people do it. (and that is not a personal attack I mean the collective you) If it doesn't make sense to you, then YOU won't do it. All that matters is that it makes sense to someone else and they DO do it. Art is about realizing "real-izing" your own personal inner vision. People use all kinds of different tools to do that and there are all different kinds of art out there. Is performance art less worthy because you can't hang it on your wall? How about music? What is important is the final product, not the genesis of the materials that allowed you to achieve it. Art is simply another form of communication, a way for people to express some part of what is inside them. If someone makes a model and makes it available to others and that model fits my needs to allow me to realize my vision, why should I waste my time trying to make it myself? As zorares so wisely points out, most artists would not be criticized for buying their paint and brushes. I cant recall hearing of a musician that feels they must create their own instruments. Why should digital artists be criticized for buying the materials they need to create THEIR art? The only thing that matters is the final image. If it expresses what the artist wants it to express then it doesn't matter how it was made (provided the means remains within the bounds of social responsibility. i.e. I am not advocating holding another artist hostage and making him paint your vision, or encouraging the psychotic episodes of anyone that feels they need to make their art from human body parts or something) and it doesn't matter if models are bought or made or if the image was post worked or not. In art, the final image (or production or song or book, etc.) is all that matters and the only person capable of judging it is the artist that created it. Everything else is simply biased reaction to the artists work.

Elgyfu, I do not get the meaning of your statement. What does that mean?

"encouraging the psychotic episodes of anyone that feels they need to make their art from human body parts or something" Reminds me of a guy who exposed his art some years ago in Grenoble. He had painted non figurative art with his own sh*t. He achieved colour variations by variations in alimentation. After 8 days, they had to keep the windows of the exposition hall open at all times. Talk about making your own tools... Compiler

The thread is almost over-- I hope. It wasn't thought out well-- not like a good Poser render;-) You never get people to change, for that matter, you never inspire people by telling them that the manner in which they are making art [good art, lame art or crap art] should change radically. Regular Posers are photographers, basically, who assemble a scene from a vast array of sources and recreate a personal vision through a rendering, with or without postwork, that can move someone. And here you go, telling them, did they ever think they might be worthless unless they miners, writers or weavers-- um no, I personally didnt. The people who are going to go on to modeling generally do, those who are going to go on to texturing generally do, those that feel no call or enthusiasm in any of those area often choose postwork as a way of growing their art. Or they export to Bryce or Vue and grow that way. I do a little bit of texturing-- still trying to figure out how to include fractalling which is my primary artform. It's difficult as mostly crappy or cliched fractals are the best to use as texture adjuncts, and my fractals stand on their own. I've never felt worthless working in Poser. My artforms have usually been collaborative. I've worked in the theatre a great deal, as stage manager, Actress and Director. Poser is really Directing on steroids because the cast doesn't argue for the most part.:)) Like whatever form of art you like, hate whatever form of art you hate. Just don't ask me to follow you. Don't like Poser, think it's worthless, here's a clue-- Don't Do It. To the extent that you don't even visit the Poser forums. Or galleries-- well why would you go to galleries of art that you hate?? Hmmm? Emily

English saying. If you 'put the cat among the pigeons' you start everyone getting defensive, argumentative and generally very excited. Personally, I think that this is a very valid discussion point, which you put in a calm and adult way. But it is bound to cause some heat - even I had a go didn't I? We can all justify what we do coz we do it!

Queri/Emily, you seem to have taken offense to my post, and replies, which was never my intent. I never meant to imply that anyone's work with Poser, or any other app for that matter, was "worthless". Also, I was not trying to "change anyone's mind" or make them "see things my way". I expressed a view, supplied further points to help express my view, the end. It's called conversation, not interragation. I am not sure what brought about this anger, but I apologize if I offended or insulted you in any way.

elgyfu, I thought that was what you were saying, but I didn't want to assume anything. I think the word you used in place of "cat" was what threw mw off. As far as this subject goes, I have really enjoyed it. Everyone said what they want with out, for the most part, getting personal or angry. I have no problem with passion, it just shows someone cares... :)

I think it's called "trolling"...there's another recent thread that discusses it.

Thinking back to my last post, I will modify my comments a little. I think I have created one pic I'd be happy to call art. By a strange quirk of circumstances though, the figure is a more or less unmodified V3. :) The textures and just about everything else are mine, though. The pic is called Flesh; it's in my gallery if you want to take a look and comment. BTW, BillyM67, I take no offense at your comments; I think it's an iteresting discussion.

You can pretty much draw a line through the middle of the 3D elitists based on age. The younger the "artist" the more inclined to be prejudiced. It's like the High School Syndrome "Mine is better than yours, so there". (Of course, my high school syndrome analogy is a much diluted one of the hypothesis that all children are pack animals, but I digress). The ONE thing that they all miss is the whole POINT. Art is an expression of self in a given medium. A voice that communicates an idea from one person to another. Not everyone will "hear" the message, because the message was not intended for them. Others will be profoundly touched by it. The ones that loudly proclaim its not art because of "this" are merely deaf to your voice(either by design or deliberation). I can also guarentee that anyone who espouses elitism on so basic a premise as "tools" has not studied art. And let me clarify that taking an "art" class does not mean they have studied art. A large portion of the people who have taken an art class seem to believe this gives them a licence to judge art, which merely proves MY point. If you must judge an image/illustration/painting/print and use the excuse of TOOLS to discount it, then surely you are deliberately deafening your ears to the message. My two pennies.

I was recently babysitting while some friends when out. I said to the kid drawing in his book "oh you like to draw with crayons?" (he was exhuasting the blue for a sky). He replyed "I don't use crayons. These are entry level pastels." haha, damn kid is better than me with um entry level pastels. I like the Poser as 3d photography analogy. It makes sence to me. I always have a really hard time explaining to my friends what exactly I DO. Simplest I've come up with to explain to my friends is Poser is Barbie and Ken for the computer. I know it's more than that, but I've never been able to explain buying clothing, animasl, houses, toyes for Poser to any of my friends without them shakin' their heads. As long as your having fun, and nobody is getting hurt, it's all good.

i like to make as much of my own stuff, as i possibly can. why? for me, it is fun. granted, i can't make a "from scratch" v3...but, i make a decent sled, dress, or skin texture. some folks spend tons of time on "postwork"...i call my work "pre work". then, when i get my lil shitty 5 minutes of "fame" before all the gallery entries move me down to page 7...for just those few minutes i know that my little graphic contains elements that are TOTALLY UNIQUE. I DON'T SELL THEM. I DON'T GIVE THEM AWAY. THEY ARE ONE OF A KIND!!! that feels real good. it's alot more fun, i think, than cloning one's way into the hot 20.

I've been interested in computer graphics since computers were invented. Unfortunately I'm artistically challenged. Poser allows me to express a bit of what I see in my mind. I'm still not good at it..improving...but without using those cookie cutters available, it wouldn't happen at all.... Poser and Bryce has allowed me to at least do something with computer graphics....there is no doubt that I could really shine if I could make my own textures...I've done a couple actually....but it takes a lot of practice.... Cookie cutters allow me near instant release of my minds eye, who otherwise would be all locked up kicking and screaming... Its a release for me from the day to day grind...its fun... sometimes frustrating..but usually fun...I'm learning a lot... Am I an artist??? not really...its my form of self expression....I know a couple of my images have sure rankled a few individuals here :)

if it was that easy to make original (boned) life-like figures, conforming clothes, streaming hair, photo-ish textures etc we would all just buy a copy of Lightwave and churn out masterpieces. unfortunately, we aren't all blessed with degrees in higher maths and a degree in painting. but we can buy a copy of Poser, some clothes and textures, and produce a piece of art we feel proud of and are delighted with. ok, so its the same viccy as everyone else uses. the same clothes. the same hair and the same bloody temple. but its MY picture. I made it, and i'm chuffed to bits with it. and all the time i'm learning. starting with textures. going on to simple modelling. eventually i will grow out of Poser as a stand-alone product, get Lightwave and just use poser for... well, posing. then i'll make my own hair. my own clothes. eventually, my own humans. who knows, you may see it in a movie or a game one day. but i would still be sat here terrified of the thought if i hadn't started with Poser. and even if that never happens, i'm having fun making pictures.i don't do drugs, i spend my spare cash on 3d stuff. i have a portfolio here, with 50+ A4 pictures in it. when i show it to friends, they don't sit there saying... "oh, thats Mike with the morphing flatop... ooo, one of viccy with those free dreadlocks from renderosity"... they say "bloody hell! thats a nice picture". and thats good enough for me :)

Yes, but Poppi, one of the graphics you promoted as being an example of art you admired was completely made up of Marketplace models (the human figures in all their plastic skin glory, the costume, and the dragon and I doubt if the textures were original either). It's nice that people can do things from scratch, but that's not what everyone wants. If you want to do it from scratch, celebrate yourself but don't denigrate other people in the course of it. That's all the rest of us are asking....let us have our fun without making it seems as if we are doing something wrong just because we aren't accomplishing our goal in the same way you are. My goal isn't your goal. And just because I don't like the art you admire doesn't make the art bad or me wrong...it just means that we don't share the same tastes in graphics. Why does this become an us versus them thing, when we could respect each others right to create the way we want without competition or infringing on each otehr?

I have no problem with ANY of the art or Artist posting here at Rosity, or how they produce it, with other peoples textures, props, lights, and poses. What rubbs me the wrong way is the "gang of 20"... as soon as it is posted, "VOTE" click ... OMG,excellent,awsome,wonderful, ect...and the some people (voting) will pass up other art of equall or better merit. *** no I do not post my art/almost art here.

I learned to ignore the Hot 20, and the fans of the Hot 20 ignore me. It's not worth getting aggrivated about. No one has to allow the comments or the rating system if you want to avoid too much praise (or trolling). Several people have said it better than I could...you should be doing graphics for yourself (unless you are a professional graphic artist and getting paid for your work). If you are having fun, not harming anyone, learning something new (if you want to) and satisfying the creative urge, it really is no one else's business what your graphic looks like or how you made it.

I get real sick of the purists who try to tell me how to use my programs. Why are people even here if it's so distastful to them? Marque

And if people didn't buy the models and use them I wonder if Renderosity would stay for long. I've seen lots of folks here who used to use the models and sets with the rest of us, but now it's beneath you. Get a grip on it. Thanks, Marque

dialyn states: "Yes, but Poppi, one of the graphics you promoted as being an example of art you admired was completely made up of Marketplace models (the human figures in all their plastic skin glory, the costume, and the dragon and I doubt if the textures were original either)." see, even though i enjoy making as much as i can on my own...i do appreciate the works of others who use the poser tools creatively. where is the conflict, here? Niles wrote: "What rubbs me the wrong way is the "gang of 20"... as soon as it is posted, "VOTE" click ... OMG,excellent,awsome,wonderful, ect...and the some people (voting) will pass up other art of equall or better merit" at least most of them honestly win it by voting for each other. how about someone with 5 comments and 19 votes getting into the 20 by posting shortly after midnight...then, getting 14 anonymous votes in the hours between midnight and 6 am? give me a break. i can spell "clone"...can the rest of you? can the ptb, here? something should be done about stuff like this. i don't understand flat out cheating. i guess i never will.

Billy- you miss the point totally- art is story telling. Thats why we do it. Why reinvent the wheel every time you need a wheel. Yes, some do point and click- but there still telling a story. A picture is worth a thousand words. In art is the Only thing I know of where the end Does justify the means.

Isn't art also a "composition" (i.e., a "composite" of many parts)? Some enjoy the journey, some the outcome. Who am I to judge what is and isn't art? Sure I have my preferences, but they're my preferences. Not yours. And I choose not to dictate to you what yours will be. And besides, I'm not going to tell a 5 year old that her "drawing" isn't art. :-)

Painters back in the Renaissance used to mix their own paint "from scratch" ,,, the secrets of which were closely guarded. I suppose all the artists since paint was put in a tube and sold on the market were all fakes ... like Van Gogh (who sold only one painting), Turner, Picasso, Miro, Grandma Moses, and a host of thousands. Poser allows ordinary people to express ideas visually that were beyond thier physical talents to draw with a pencil. Like in cooking, the art is discovered in the eating, not the preparation. The rest is pretense.

I'm not at all offended by the postbilly, and want to tell my side. I can hand draw OK, but not good enough to do what I see in my head. I'm primarily a writer. Scifi, horror, fantasy. I got Poser so I could make comics and movies of my stories. It was perfect for my purposes. It's also why I don't usually post to the galleries, since I'm making a different kind of art, and for a different reason. I am working on a three-issue comic which I hope to release late this summer, and am in the middle of production on a scifi movie using Poser. I have 2 comic series and a half-hour sitcom planned for next year. My skills lie in pretty much the same areas as a Director or Producer. Using products I buy is, to me, the same as hiring the people to build the sets, make the costumes, and put the makeup on the actors. :) I put it into this blender called Poser, and churn out a tale. So I use it to tell my stories, and it also takes up a lot less room than those action figures. ;)