If a merchant moves a product previously available at Renderosity to Poser Pros, it should be added to the list of purchases of the previous Renderosity customer if that customer is also a member of Poser Pros. This currently does not happen. If one of these products has an update the customer shouldn't have to go through posting to the forum, emails back and forth with the merchant, to end up downloading a file from some temporary link never to be able to access it again if the need should arise. If PoserPros is working on this, I'd like to know it and what the status is. If not, I'd like to know why. I think the merchants should request of their customers the user name used at Poser Pros and it is the responsibility of the customer to supply the name if they wish to do so. I'm posting this here because this is the place where merchants have been announcing their moves.

I don't think renderosity and poserpros share their user database, much less their user's purchases database. It would be up the the merchants to make sure their customers are looked after. And up to the customers to decide if the merchant's customer service warrants future support. ;)

I may be wrong about this, but I believe that if a merchants store is removed and the merchant left in good standing, Their products remain for past buyers. This of course does not apply to updates after the time the store was removed. For those you would have to contact the merchant or hopefully if the merchant has your e-mail they would contact you. As for Poser Pros or anyother site accepting customer updates from other stores I would doubt it for several reasons. 1. customer names are not always consistant between sites. 2. use of bandwidth with no profit to the broker. 3. maintaining records of other broker purchases. 4. what happens if the merchant moves a third time? This could be a nightmare for the 2nd and 3rd companies. As for my products, if there is a free update I would do everything I can to get ahold of past customers. If you ever become aware of an update in any other way I would still honor it if I can be convinced that you purchased it legitimately. FYI... I try to keep very accurate records of who has what. Billy

April I didn't say anything different. It IS up to the merchant to make sure his/her customer is taken care of and part of that is getting the products in the Customer purchased products list! Ironhart: 1) I already addressed this 2) That is not MY problem. It is something that has to be worked out between the merchant and Poser Pros. 3) Not necessary. The MERCHANT should keep records of their customers and who bought what. 4) Again, that is not the CUSTOMER's problem.

Did you contact Russell or Mehndi - the owners of Pser Pros regarding this? Or even post it at their forum?

I told you why I posted here. And further to Ironhart's #4. If a customer perceives the merchants are moving around constantly without regard for their customers, it seems to me the merchant may start losing some business.

I agree, and I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I was just trying to be helpful. sorry. Billy

That's okay, Billy. Discussing the factors involved is important.

I told you why I posted here. You are expecting Russell to work on the back end of Poser Pros yet you don't directly ask him about this. Seems kind of strange to me that you wouldn't directly approach the owners of the site about this instead of making demands in a forum that they don't necessarily read regularly and that isn't even on their site. If PoserPros is working on this, I'd like to know it and what the status is. If not, I'd like to know why. Read what I just said above.

Well, one thing that needs to be considered here is the fact that somethings are impossible to predict. Nobody had any clue that rendo was going to pull the stunt they did, and what effects that would have. Since I figure Spit is probably talking about me, and the problems we had with the move and the pre-move upgrade offer, I thought I should jump in here. I made a statement about offering an upgrade to Prin, for those who bought Neo, before the smack down happened here. I wanted to keep my word to my customers, so I upheld the offer to the best of my ability. I busted my arse, and honked off alot of people for several days, just to make it happen. However, due to resource constraints on our end, we cannot keep the offer open indefinitly...at least not at current. We are also working on that. It is not Poser Pros place to uphold any connections to purchases made though their competitors, nor should it be. We honestly did everything we could in the timeliest fassion we could manage, I'm sorry if it wasn't satisfactory. We concidered renigging on the upgrade altogether, but decided it was only right to do what we could. So we offered the upgrade for the initial release of Prin, and ripped our hair out till 4am every night for a week to make it happen. After everybody that responded got their upgrade, we took it down. I personally feel that we went above and beyond what many would have done. Again, I am sorry if it wasn't satisfactory. I back up everything I buy onto CD...everybody should. It's a part of dealing with digital media, and it's just a good idea. But I know that stuff happens, and things get lost, broken, or damaged, so not being able to re-download a product could pose a problem for some. I'm not sure what we could do, if anything, to make things better. EA

There's no way it can happen and I only posted cos I'm bemused about why Spit put the onus on PoserPros? Merchants move items different ways than just renderosity->poserpros. :) lol There's poserpros->renderosity, renderosity->daz, daz->renderosity, renderosity->rdna, renderosity->3dcommune, etc. None of these stores support item moves afaik and I personally wouldn't expect them to. The stores are separate entities from the merchants and can't be held responsible for what merchants do with their items. I would also think it odd if one site started to store data about my shopping from another site without my direct input. Don't get me wrong, I am also dismayed by moving items (NOT just rosity->poserpros moves) cos I feel I have to keep up with where items I have bought have gone and wonder if any of them have had free updates or addons that I don't know about. Anyhoo, despite all that, I was bemused cos out of all the sites, if any could be proactive about this I would think of poserpros first too. ;) Russel seems to like tinkering with code outside of normal site upgrades... so if you suggest some sort of merchant customer address list database thingy to him he might actually be interested! Then we'd have a one stop spot to "register" ourselves with merchants we want to keep us updated.

I agree with April, why is PoserPros being singled out here? Daz has been purchasing a lot of back catalogues of a few merchants... don't hear you asking whether they'll be supporting past purchasers of these products. Seems to me there's more to this issue here than you're admitting to. IMHO - the onus is actually on the merchant not the store they're moving to. And Spit, if you don't ask Russell and Mehndi directly, or post this at PoserPros, then how in the hell do you expect them to address the issue? If there is an issue at all.

Xena. I admit it would be nice to ALSO post over there. But I posted here because this affects Renderosity customers and this is the place previous discussion has happened. Having two separate discussions on the same issue is non-productive. Russ and Mehndi have never failed to find the threads over here that interest them, so I had no worry about that. If they wish to respond about what they may or may not be doing about their back end, it is perfectly fine with me that that be over there. Electric Aardvark. You took care of me just fine. And I have no complaints about your handling of my update. You did what you are currently able to do. April The Rendo-to-PoserPros move was the most recent and visible example. And it affects me with several products. That's why I brought it up. If anyone wishes to bring up issues regarding other stores they should. Also, the merchants should be the ones contacting their customers to find out if the customer wishes the products they bought from the merchant be listed and if so to give their user name and confirm the products. So you would have input.

I am adressing his response to ironharts first post. 1. Yes you did already adress this good job. 2.It is your problem your the ones who want the updates. Why should pp or any other site have to waste bandwidth just because you may or may not loose a product one day or it may or may not be updated. You do know bandwidth isnt cheap esp on that kind of site dont you? 3.Your right merchants should keep records but for a different reason. Merchants should keep records to find ou tif somebody is stealing their items. 4. Again it is your problem. Your the one who wants the update and doesnt want to just contact that merchant with proof of purchase. Your the one who may or may not need to redownload in the future not the merchant we have our products. Furthermore i notice your not a merchant. Any merchant who is actually making a serious go at this merchant thing doesnt have the time to do this . Maybe if you knew what it was like you wouldnt have posted this. And how rude of you to First post in a forum that isnt even on the site you are uselessly bitching about. And how rude of you to write such a dickheaded post in the first place.You didnt write it nice or in a kind manner or even in a civil manner. You wrote it sounding like an attack on poser pros. This line right here If PoserPros is working on this, I'd like to know it and what the status is. If not, I'd like to know why. Doesnt seem to nice to me am i the only one? Also i find it rather rude that your post in response to ironhart was harsh. Seems to me that you just want to cuase trouble. WELL GOOD JOB THUMBS UP YEAH!!.

Gaurie...we crossposted. My post, I think, answers your questions. Neo..you are way over the top here. Why should a customer who purchased a product from the moved-to store get more privileges than a customer who purchased the product before the move? I don't care what your opinion is on why merchants should keep customer records. That's not an issue here. The fact is they should keep customer records. Period. After all they expect to be treated as professionals, they should act the same. I will not even address your other non-professional comments.

Ok no skin off my nose lol.

Why should a customer who purchased a product from the moved-to store get more privileges than a customer who purchased the product before the move? I expect a merchant to give me two benefits. 1) to correct any existing problems with the product 2) to provide me with updates when I provide proof of purchase Benefits beyond this are generally provided by the storefront rather than the merchant. Offering such additional benefits is one way that a storefront can distinguish itself from their competition as a means to attract customers. Given this I don't see why PoserPros (to use your example) should be responsible for providing updates on a product that was purchased elsewhere. I would certainly appreciate it if they did but this is not something I feel the right to demand. For example, VISA doubles the length of manufacturer's warranty on purchases I make with it. If I bought the item using another credit card I would not expect VISA to double the warranty. If I buy a product at store A they extend a 30 day return privilege whereas store B offers only 15. 20 days after purchase I would not expect store A to accept the return of an item purchased at B. Customer privileges vary depending upon place and manner of purchase all the time. This is neither new nor unexpected. >...they (merchants) should keep customer records. Period. After all they expect to be treated as professionals, they should act the same. Very few real world stores or merchants keep individual track of items purchased unless said items are high priced yet there is no question that they are professional retailers. When one of "our" merchants keeps such records I consider it to be an extra service, not a professional requirement. Such records are only of limited use anyhow as merchants are given the purchasers' user names, not real names. Although I try to retain the same user name across the various sites this is not always possible. As such, my username alone is neither proof of purchase or non-purchase (ie product theft).

As a point of interest, I once purchased several items from a merchant at a well known web storefront- not Renderosity, PoserPros or DAZ. For some forgotten reason I had occassion to contact the merchant. A month or so later this individual contacted me asking for details. It seemed that the storefront records did not show any purchases of the items in question during that period. I'm sure this was the cause of oversight or system glitch rather than ill intent and have no idea if the matter was ever sorted out. But this does suggest that such records are not irrefutable evidence of legitimate purchase.

You do have a point, Jack. But this electronic world of Poser has some different issues. What's common in our world, isn't that common out there. Merchant's email addresses change, for one thing, sometimes making it difficult for customers to contact them. In fact customers email addresses change also. Stores are a convenient way to keep the two in contact. Also it's not common in the 'real world' to buy a product that may be updated. It's much more convenient for both the merchant and the customer to have an easy method of distributing the update. As for necessary re-downloads, it does happen. Even though I knew it only happened to other people and not to me, I lost 4 weeks of stuff about a year ago. Not to mention the fact that backups aren't 100% reliable. And the whole idea of a merchant selling a digital file through an online store is a bit different from what you're dealing with out there. There are very few consignment shops actually. And you deal with the store directly. Even if the store stops stocking a certain product because it's going to be sold somewhere else, it doesn't make much difference except for return policies and warranties which may or may not be transferred and are usually time limited anyway. I don't know how many stores offer an update to a couch. Merchants are usually smart and go where they think the money is, usually not thinking about anything else. I have no problem with that. It's when they become exclusive and remove their products from the previous store that it becomes an inconvenience for the customer.

There are ways to ask for things nicely, and then there are ways where a person comes off as harsh and demanding and rude. Guess which end of the spectrum this falls under? I totally agree with you, jval. I don't expect my Discovercard to offer me the same special benefits that my Mastercard used to.

Oh, thank you soooooooo much for correcting my political incorrectness. There are ways of criticizing someone nicely, and then there are ways where a person comes off as harsh and demanding and rude.

I just want to throw in here that every merchant that I know of who has completely moved their stores has taken ALL of their records with them. They downloaded and printed out every record of every purchaser of every product in their store. So if an update becomes available, the merchants will notify ALL purchasers.

Spit, a customer's redownloads will be handled by the store where the product was originally purchased. Renderosity already does this, as do we. Even if the product is removed. However, the merchant will have to coordinate updates to their previous customers. If they have an issue getting out the update, we may be able to assist them if necessary. We do generally have a better distribution capability than a merchant and would not be above helping get an update out if needed to their previous customers. Russell

All of the merchants I have dealt with that have changed sites, or expanded to sell their products on more than one site, have been more than generous about notifying me and keeping me updated about their old and new products. Although I cannot always follow them to their new site (depending on which one they choose to sell at), I appreciate their courtesy and would buy from them again if I was able to. A little customer service earns a merchant a good name and repeat business as well as references. I guess I've just been lucky to deal with people with pride in their product and the willingness to provide customer support no matter how insanely stupid I can be sometimes about losing my own records.

Russ, thanks for coming by. Yes, I guess the purchases remaining for re-download at the old store would be sufficient for those, at least for a while. And I know you'll do your best to help the merchants get product to customers. However the updated products are not available for redownload...might you be able to do some thinking on that? Again, thanks. And dialyn and gildedgecko. I have no complaints about the merchants I've dealt with.

Spit, Actually, where feasible, what is common in the online retail world is not disimilar to that in the "real" world. Countless investors in web based operations discovered that to their financial dismay. I note that computer software is also merchandised quite heavily in brick and mortar stores so yes, they do have products that can be updated. Of course, online establishments do have opportunities unavailable to actual physical stores. The glaring example is virtually unlimited inventory of an item at no additional expense- the ultimate in supply and demand economics. While email addresses of various parties do indeed change, physical stores and their suppliers also frequently change locations. I think that it may be more accurate to compare merchants at a web store front to a physical store's product suppliers rather than people who consign products. The difference is that it is much easier and less expensive for someone to get their product into Renderosity, et al, than into an outfit like Sears. I agree that additional downloads are necessary at times. But that we may freely replace a damaged or lost item in this manner is not a characteristic of online versus offline purchases. It is the nature of the product. For instance, in the event of loss the Photoshop I purchased downtown can still be replaced at little additional cost- just not as conveniently as online. If you lose a radio purchased online I rather doubt that the online merchant will be easily persuaded to replace it at no cost. In the end, if merchants wish to retain and increase their customer base it is up to them to nurture the relationship- not the store that carries their products for what may be a limited time only. The needs of stores, suppliers and customers do not change just because the purchase venue is the web versus the street. In summary, I agree that your proposal would be beneficial to the buyer. I disagree only that it is a right we may demand. If a web retailer does offer such a service it will be not the result of ethical obligation but of shrewd marketing (which is a good reason in itself.)

Spit, I think you are raising some good points. Changes are difficult, and I don't imagine it's possible to anticipate all the variation of things that could happen. It pays for the customer to pay attention and the merchants to take of business properly. With any luck, the sites will help this process be a cooperative one.

"I disagree only that it is a right we may demand" Point taken. Thanks for your input. Agreed, dialyn. Thanks.

Admittedly, it would be nice when merchant moves their store in it's entirety, that the database at their new site would carry old records for update purposes. However, that would only hold true for exclusive items. Often a vendor will have stores in serveral place: here, 3DCommune, PoserPros. And then some things get either sold outright or moved to Daz. It's the responsibility of the vendor, not the venue to keep customer's updated. Vendors whould be keeping their own customer list for products, and when they change venues shuold email all past customers with the change, as well as notifying them of any contact changes, updates to the product, and solutions to new problems. It's called customer service, and vendors who don't do it wind up with fewer sales in the long run. Not the vendor of brokered products, the vendor who made and actually sells the product. I know this places a burden on the vendors, especially small ones, but unless you're going to commit to exclusivly use a venue and promise never to change, it's something you owe your customers as part of the deal (at least for a period of time). Of course, the longer a product is out, the less important this becomes. If there are any problems with a product, they usually come out in the first few purchases and can be updated or more information added to the readme files for subsequent sales. One point though. This isn't like retail clothing purchases. If there's a problem with a piece of clothing you return it to the store for a refund or replacement. You find the problem the first time you wear an item. This is software sales. Problems become apparent and support, not an exchange, is expected. Again, vendors who support their products well get better sales and a loyal customer base. If a vendor can't keep their own database, at least they should make multiple announcements when there are changes and problems on the various sites where they've sold their stuff, along with posting their email changes widely. Whew!

Im a customer and not worried. I back up my purchases, 1-2 times on CD immediately. I think that is the customers responsibility, or purchase a cd from the store with backups.

This is not about being 'PC'. You want something. But it seems you were laying the responsibility for your desires on the wrong people/place. I totally agree with pdxjims. It depends on the vendor, not the venue. Sadly this- "If one of these products has an update the customer shouldn't have to go through posting to the forum, emails back and forth with the merchant, to end up downloading a file from some temporary link never to be able to access it again if the need should arise. " Is to be expected. It should be between you and the merchant. Though there are some really nice venues out there that may take your wish into consideration, ehh, Russ. ;)

As far as my store here goes, there are a lot of items in it that I will be retiring altogether. Therefore there would be no updates to that product. Only the most popular will go with me (and there aren't many...LOL). As for my being a texture artist, there are very little chances for updates, but rather fixes and if I ever found the need for one, I would contact ALL my customers, no matter where the item was sold. As a sidenote, I bought a digital poser product on a site and less than a month later it went on sale. I was only slightly dismayed - I still thought the original price was a good bargain and I certainly wasn't going to ask the merchant to refund me the difference. I see where you are coming from Spit - I know that you just want to make sure that you get support for the products you've bought, and rightly so. But you'll just have to trust the creator to contact you with any changes, as I doubt that a competing store will store all your purchase information from here. Laurie

...that being the responsibilities of the vendor and venue, and the customer. The vendor is responsible for keeping track of their customers. The venue may provide them with tools, but it's the vendor's responsibility to keep in touch. The vendor should provide a product that is worth the purchase price, and provide support for that product. A vendor who doesn't do this will not make many more sales. The venue has to keep it's reputation. If a venue tests a product before brokering them for a merchant, then that level of testing should be consistant for all products. The venue is often promising a level of quality of an item. Daz and rDNA are EXCELLENT at this on their brokered products. There is a level of quality I've come to expect from both venues. The venue also has a responsibility to their customers to notify them of problems concerning copyright violations and anything that would force the venue to pull a store. If a store leaves because of a vendor decision, the vendor should notify their costomer base. If a vendor leaves because of legal issue, or a decision by the venue, the venue should notify the customers of their decision, and what reasonaing (within legal limits) of the reason for that decision. A venue that doesn't do this will see it's sales fall. I'm VERY careful of buying textures here now. I won't buy one here unless I know the vendor and trust them completly, or they're also being sold at at least one other major site. The customer has a responsibility too. Don't go posting in a public forum about a problem UNTIL YOU TALK TO THE VENDOR. Don't post on a Friday after the store is closed complaining. Sometimes it's fine on a product that was just released late on a Friday (Daz is bad about this), to let people know to wait to buy until it's fixed on Monday. But coming in and griping about a product that's been out for a week without trying to get in touch with the vendor. And give them a couple of days to get back to you. Some people only check their email when the get home from their day job. And above all, everyone should use common curtesy. If you have a temper problem, kindly wait until you cool off before fireing a broadside in the forums about a product. Vendors and venues, this goes for you too. Brusk responses will not make you popular with the people who give you money. And don't be afraid to apologize for making a mistake. Quick side note on the Daz on Fridays: I've NEVER had a problem with any Daz product itself, but sometimes the installer is bad, or has incorrect files. Posting stuff for sale on Friday after 5:00 West Coast time when you aren't going to be at work the next day isn't the best idea in the world. Most hobbiests do their stuff on the weekend, and it really irks them to wait until Monday to get a fix. Pappa Jimmi will now get off of his soapbax and get back to work making cloths.

"I have no complaints about the merchants I've dealt with. "
Huh?

If you don't have any complaints...WHY are you complaining?!?!

Sorry if I seem a little hot headed, but WTF? You have no complaints...Don't start a dialogue compaining about something you have no complaints over.

My complaint was about process. Not individuals. I really wanted to see products, such as yours which was an update to the product here, added to my purchase list over there. It's been pointed out to me that that is not the store's responsibility. So be it. I can still hope.

Ah, ok..Now I get cha.

On the issue of contacting customers.. hmmm you guys do realize that at rosity it is not a right of the merchant but a privlage? Given rules and only allowed under those rules and can be denied for any reason whatsoever? Just pointing that out. :)

Here's a suggestion for some forward thinking site administrator. What we need is a long term forum dedicated to product update information. This forum would exist only so that various merchants could post news about updates to their existing product and how to obtain such updates. These postings should be made only by the product merchant. Announcements would not be restricted to merchandise purchased only from that site. It should allow searching by both product name and merchant. The forum would not allow customer comment, speculation, discussion or new product announcements. Any post that was not specifically an update annnouncement would be immediately deleted. This could attract a lot of people to a site who might even purchase something while they were there.

jval, that's an EXCELLENT idea. Only, if you aren't a merchant HERE, then you couldn't post to it under your guidelines. There would be no way to distinguish who is a merchant of that site or of another site if the public couldn't post as well. But it's still a great idea ;o). Laurie

Glad you like the idea Laurie. ...if you aren't a merchant HERE, then you couldn't post to it under your guidelines. Not sure why- I did say "not be restricted to merchandise purchased only from that site." Is it important to know who is a merchant of "that" site or another? This would only seem advantageous to locate the update but I did say that the actual posting should contain that info.

I should mention that my suggestion is just that and the "guidelines" are hardly written in stone. I'm sure that further thought would bring addtional considerations. However, the final result should remain simple and not encumbered with needless features.

I like!!

jval - Interesting idea on the update forum. Hmm.. Clint

Uh-oh. The gears are movin' in Clint's head ;o) Laurie

Scary - isnt it. :) Clint

I love this idea - customers win 'cause they find out about updates, merchants win 'cause fewer customers are upset, and 'Rosity wins 'cause more Poser folks are spending more time on their site, and possibly spending money in the store. Merchants could post links to bug fixes there too.

I believe there was a thread over a year ago asking for just such a forum. It would be a forum I would frequently check, for sure. I think the merchants are very good about sending e-mails about updates...unfortunately, with the fear of getting a virus, many times we might delete an unfamiliar e-mail. I love the idea! Diane